Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com This is really the problem. If we had never heard of astrology and you were to propose it as a scientifically credible system now, what would the evidence look like? Would you say that everything we know about psychology is wrong and all psychosocial phenomenon are better explained by the movement of planets against an arbitrary background? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Bingo! This is really it. I bailed from the TMO long before it embarrassed itself by trying to sell its cultist-followers the idea that astrology was a science. So, you worked for the TMO for 14 years and paid the TMO $5,000 to learn how to fly and THEN you got kicked out for passing out all those flyers and tacking up all those posters promising enlightenment in 5-7 years and that humans could levitate. Go figure. If I had still been around at that point, I would have laughed in Maharishi's face and told him the same things I have been posting here, that it's a pseudoscience that appeals only to weak-minded people and that neither he nor anyone else is ever likely to prove that it works. You were still around another 20 years working for Rama, passing out flyers promising instant enlightenment. We don't know why you got kicked out but it was probably because you failed to pay your dues of $1,000 a month to watch Rama levitate, but you still can't prove how that works. Go figure. But other people were still TBs, and thus bought into it without ever putting their minds and their discrimination in gear. Some of them actually went out and spent years trying to become Jyotishi themselves. Therefore, *they are heavily invested in the past*. It's harder for them to allow even the *concept* that it's all bullshit into their minds, because they invested so much of their time, energy, money, and above all ego in identifying with astrology. As you suggest above, if someone were to propose something as ludicrous as astrology here on FFL today, something they *hadn't* invested in for decades, they'd probably be as rationally skeptical as anyone else. But they simply can't go there with astrology/jyotish because they can't accept even for moment that they might have been W...w...w...wrong, and taken in by a pseudoscience that pandered to their egos and those egos' need to believe that they somehow could predict the future and explain the past and the present. As you may have noticed, Sal, I don't get involved with arguing with such people, just as I don't get involved with theists who try to convert others to their beliefs or political crackpots who try to convert others to their conspiracy theories. There is just too much ego there for me to want to go anywhere near it. The part I like about science in its ideal form is its willingness to *throw away* old theories the moment they are proved inadequate. REAL scientists can do that. Faux scientists can't. They're more like the astrologers and the theists and the people who believe that humans never walked on the moon -- *committed*. At some point in their lives they *settled*. They decided that the things they were told to believe were *right*, and having made that decision, their egos became so identified with that belief that at this point it is literally *impossible* for them to step back and question the beliefs themselves. The only thing they can do is cling to the stuff they were told and try to demonize or silence those who challenge it. In other words, arguing with an astrologer is like arguing with a pig. It never accomplishes anything, it pisses off the pig, and it spoils the taste of the bacon. :-) Bingo! This is really it. I bailed from the TMO long before it embarrassed itself by trying to sell its cultist-followers the idea that astrology was a science. If I had still been around at that point, I would have laughed in Maharishi's face and told him the same things I have been posting here, that it's a pseudoscience that appeals only to weak-minded people and that neither he nor anyone else is ever likely to prove that it works. But other people were still TBs, and thus bought into it without ever putting their minds and their discrimination in gear. Some of them actually went out and spent years trying to become Jyotishi themselves. Therefore, *they are heavily invested in the past*. It's harder for them to allow even the *concept* that it's all bullshit into their minds, because they invested so much of their time, energy, money, and above all ego in identifying with astrology. As you suggest above, if someone were to propose something as ludicrous as astrology here on FFL today, something they *hadn't* invested in for decades, they'd probably be as rationally skeptical as anyone else. But they simply can't go there with astrology/jyotish because they can't accept even for moment that
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
On 03/03/2015 11:55 PM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: */In other words, arguing with an astrologer is like arguing with a pig. It never accomplishes anything, it pisses off the pig, and it spoils the taste of the bacon. :-)/* /*And arguing with someone who thinks astrology is bunkum is like arguing with a mule. You'll never get anywhere. :-D */
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Feste's comment: You certainly seem to have a high opinion of science. Science has given us many wonderful things but there are also many things it cannot explain. However, this does not mean that those things are untrue or false. There are more things in heaven and earth, as Hamlet famously says to Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philsophy. I suspect that you actually know this very well, and that your apparent adherence to science is more of a pose than anything else. You were a spiritual seeker all those years and now you are telling me you don't believe something because science tells you it is not so? I suspect your atheism is also something of a pose, but that's another story. Science has proved to be the most reliable, though not completely reliable ways to discover and understand how the universe is, that is, what is happening. Spiritual disciplines on the other hand are devoted to why the universe is, not how, and on a conceptual level they have failed because they tend to ignore the how, preferring instead magical thinking. Techniques like meditation, inquiry (questioning everything you think you know), and a focus on just what this is all about are part of those tools. Believing stuff is not part spiritual inquiry, though as in science, hypothesising is. There are many things we do not know that might be true, but until we discover them and discover they are true, we have no idea whether that is the case. Science has shown that astrology does not seem to work. It has also shown there are certain psychological gaps in the way most people approach astrology, and being unaware of those gaps results in not being able to see the psychological effects that happen when a person is trying to map the readings of astrology onto their life and personality. One of those is a person takes a generalised statement and interprets it as if it were specific to him/her even though such a statement pretty much applies to everyone. So in evaluating astrology, one typically has a mentally lax understanding of what is happening. Another feature of astrology, something I heard John Fagan mention, is it has too many degrees of freedom, a statistical concept. This enables astrology to appear, post-hoc, to match many many features of a person's life, because it will match just about anything. But this same freedom means it cannot ex-ante discover those same things reliably in advance because there are too many variables that are not narrowed down, it can only make rather vague general predictions, which could fit just about any potential situation. To take an example from Western astrology, if one is told 'you will meet someone new', that might happen today, or any time during the week, or month, or year. Unless you nail down when that will happen, and what this new person is going to mean in your life, it's not much of a prediction. I see new people almost everyday, so what? In many countries and states astrology is a criminal or misdemeanour offence unless certain legal disclaimers (equivalent to saying it really doesn't work, and if you want reliable advice, go elsewhere) are made part of the arrangement between the astrologer and his/her mark. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : No, it's just that you are both are incapable of understanding Feste's point. The philosophies you've embraced display an certain arrogance of science. To understand Feste's point would require a degree of discrimination which you have chosen to numb. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : You certainly seem to have a high opinion of science. Science has given us many wonderful things but there are also many things it cannot explain. Can you give us an example of something it cannot explain, as opposed to something it just doesn't have an explanation for yet? Of the latter there are many but there always were and problems always seem to get solved eventually. It depends how much effort is being put in. To not have a high opinion of the scientific method because it hasn't already answered all questions is a bit silly when you consider the track record. I think what Feste is objecting to is that science balks at giving him the easy answers he's grown used to from religion and from the TMO. Easy answers are...uh...easy, because their purpose is not to actually answer any questions. Their purpose is to shut the questioners up and keep them from asking more questions.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Just a pile of the usual straw man assumptions, straw man arguments, ending with the usual cliche. And none of it is true anyway. Just devices of a narcissistic personality. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I suspect that your suspicions have more to do with your inability to think outside the box you've been taught to think within than anyone else. I really have no need for a God, and don't see how *anyone* does. Similarly, having experienced most of the states that people seek and having found them no better or more fulfilling than any other states, I don't seek. I do understand why others continue to do so, but I'm really not one of those people. What you people flock to gurus and pay fortunes to attend courses for, I get from watching a great sunrise or hearing the laughter of a small child. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 2:17 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You certainly seem to have a high opinion of science. Science has given us many wonderful things but there are also many things it cannot explain. However, this does not mean that those things are untrue or false. There are more things in heaven and earth, as Hamlet famously says to Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philsophy. I suspect that you actually know this very well, and that your apparent adherence to science is more of a pose than anything else. You were a spiritual seeker all those years and now you are telling me you don't believe something because science tells you it is not so? I suspect your atheism is also something of a pose, but that's another story. Feste: As far as what science says about astrology, I couldn't care less. If science says astrology is rubbish, that it cannot be true, etc. etc., that directly contradicts my own experience, repeated many times over half a lifetime. So I go with my own experience. I would be a fool not to. Turquoise: No, you would be a True Believer, ready to prefer your own subjective experience no matter what, and never even consider the possibility that it could have been mistaken -- even if science shows that it could very well be. I can understand that, but I cannot respect it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com I'm not sure what you mean by normal TM elitist. When I said that the astrologer Howard Sasportas also happened to be a TM teacher, I certainly did not mean that that automatically made him better than others. It was just a piece of information about him, that's all. Sometimes you read things that aren't there. I don't think so. I wasn't referring to Sasportas as all, and in fact neither his name nor any reference you made to him registered to me at all...I've never heard of the guy. I was referring to a *recurring* sense of elitism that I have perceived in you and in *most* long-term TMers, exemplified in statements like I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. I would doubt it. That's elitism. You *look down* on those who don't agree with you. Another aspect of elitism, to an even greater degree, is, I have studied it, you have not, which as Salyavin pointed out wasn't even said by Issac Newton about astrology. You say this a different way in your last statement below. For the record, I *have no problem* with your statements about having learned much about yourself from astrology. That's your concern. Mine is just that as a means of prediction, it's utterly and completely useless. Its predictive value has never and will never be proven in any kind of scientific context in which the astrologers are blinded from meeting their clients (and thus cold-reading them) and prevented from making generalized predictions that would apply to anyone. Another aspect of what I call TM elitism is that long-term TMers tend to believe pretty much *what they were told to believe* by Maharishi, and seem incapable of challenging or questioning it. We will have to agree to differ about astrology. That's fine with me. There's far more to it than intuition. I don't think so. As I explained to Sal, the readings I had were not vague generalities. They were precise and accurate, and they very much related to me as a specific individual. You must have either seen some bad astrologers or have been so lacking in self-insight that you didn't recognize yourself in what they told you. Either that, or you are like all of those college students in the famous experiment who were all given the exact same horoscope to read and told that it was done for them personally. When the real nature of the experiment was revealed to them, over half refused
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
No, it's just that you are both are incapable of understanding Feste's point. The philosophies you've embraced display an certain arrogance of science. To understand Feste's point would require a degree of discrimination which you have chosen to numb. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : You certainly seem to have a high opinion of science. Science has given us many wonderful things but there are also many things it cannot explain. Can you give us an example of something it cannot explain, as opposed to something it just doesn't have an explanation for yet? Of the latter there are many but there always were and problems always seem to get solved eventually. It depends how much effort is being put in. To not have a high opinion of the scientific method because it hasn't already answered all questions is a bit silly when you consider the track record. I think what Feste is objecting to is that science balks at giving him the easy answers he's grown used to from religion and from the TMO. Easy answers are...uh...easy, because their purpose is not to actually answer any questions. Their purpose is to shut the questioners up and keep them from asking more questions.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : I think the discussion would be different here if our resident astrology critics were actually scientists. It wouldn't. It might be a bit more so but you won't find any astronomers or psychologists who think that the position of planets against a random background of stars can tell you anything about you or your day that you don't already or know or could have found out through less esoteric means. Science is about finding the best explanation for a given phenomenon. The trials that have been conducted into astrology (Xeno posted a good one the other day) come back negative. If it works we should be able to prove it. Simple really. Especially considering its claimed power. To me it makes no sense whatsoever, I can't fit it into cosmology, psychology, evolutionary theory. It's just a bizarre thing that people believe. If it makes them happy then fine but I suspect it's all about intuition and people thinking about people, I don't think it's anything to do with planets in any way whatsoever. I convert for evidence. But it''s going to have to be good. But they are just science fans and like to post links to articles to make people think they are smarter than they are. It's a poser thing. Thing is, if they post something that is a field of science some of us know about or work with they become mute if you want to discuss that field. :-D On 03/02/2015 05:17 PM, feste37 wrote: You certainly seem to have a high opinion of science. Science has given us many wonderful things but there are also many things it cannot explain. However, this does not mean that those things are untrue or false. There are more things in heaven and earth, as Hamlet famously says to Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philsophy. I suspect that you actually know this very well, and that your apparent adherence to science is more of a pose than anything else. You were a spiritual seeker all those years and now you are telling me you don't believe something because science tells you it is not so? I suspect your atheism is also something of a pose, but that's another story. Feste: As far as what science says about astrology, I couldn't care less. If science says astrology is rubbish, that it cannot be true, etc. etc., that directly contradicts my own experience, repeated many times over half a lifetime. So I go with my own experience. I would be a fool not to. Turquoise: No, you would be a True Believer, ready to prefer your own subjective experience no matter what, and never even consider the possibility that it could have been mistaken -- even if science shows that it could very well be. I can understand that, but I cannot respect it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... wrote : From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com I'm not sure what you mean by normal TM elitist. When I said that the astrologer Howard Sasportas also happened to be a TM teacher, I certainly did not mean that that automatically made him better than others. It was just a piece of information about him, that's all. Sometimes you read things that aren't there. I don't think so. I wasn't referring to Sasportas as all, and in fact neither his name nor any reference you made to him registered to me at all...I've never heard of the guy. I was referring to a *recurring* sense of elitism that I have perceived in you and in *most* long-term TMers, exemplified in statements like I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. I would doubt it. That's elitism. You *look down* on those who don't agree with you. Another aspect of elitism, to an even greater degree, is, I have studied it, you have not, which as Salyavin pointed out wasn't even said by Issac Newton about astrology. You say this a different way in your last statement below. For the record, I *have no problem* with your statements about having learned much about yourself from astrology. That's your concern. Mine is just that as a means of prediction, it's utterly and completely useless. Its predictive value has never and will never be proven in any kind of scientific context in which the astrologers are blinded from meeting their clients (and thus cold-reading them) and prevented from making generalized predictions that would apply to anyone. Another aspect of what I call TM elitism is that long-term TMers tend to believe pretty much *what they were told to believe* by Maharishi, and seem incapable of challenging or questioning it. We will have to agree to differ about astrology. That's fine with me. There's far more to it than intuition. I don't think so. As I explained to Sal, the readings I
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : Sal, can you post an article about a field of science you know something about so we can discuss it and ask you question about? Eh? I thought I already had What fields of science are you expert in? Your horoscope looks like you might be good at real estate (loaded fourth house) but that's not exactly a science. Real estate, is that buying and selling houses? Not really, maybe more than some due to trades I've done but it's all just about being practical, it isn't something that engages me or that I'd go out of my way to take part in. And I hate all the bloody property shows on TV, I can't believe so many people are so incompetent and lacking in common sense. Still, idiots make better TV... As far as scientific interests go, you know what I like. I don't posts prehistoric stuff just because Dinosaurs look cool. Well, mostly I don't... And I don't post things that I don't understand in case someone does ask me a question. I post stuff because I find it interesting. Are you trying to get at me about something? On 03/02/2015 10:46 PM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : You certainly seem to have a high opinion of science. Science has given us many wonderful things but there are also many things it cannot explain. Can you give us an example of something it cannot explain, as opposed to something it just doesn't have an explanation for yet? Of the latter there are many but there always were and problems always seem to get solved eventually. It depends how much effort is being put in. To not have a high opinion of the scientific method because it hasn't already answered all questions is a bit silly when you consider the track record. As for things it can't explain, I don't believe we will ever come across an unsolvable problem. The universe and everything in it is made of stuff. Stuff is understandable therefore the universe the universe is understandable. It will be interesting to be proved wrong on this one. However, this does not mean that those things are untrue or false. There are more things in heaven and earth, as Hamlet famously says to Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philsophy. I suspect that you actually know this very well, and that your apparent adherence to science is more of a pose than anything else. You were a spiritual seeker all those years and now you are telling me you don't believe something because science tells you it is not so? I suspect your atheism is also something of a pose, but that's another story. Feste: As far as what science says about astrology, I couldn't care less. If science says astrology is rubbish, that it cannot be true, etc. etc., that directly contradicts my own experience, repeated many times over half a lifetime. So I go with my own experience. I would be a fool not to. Turquoise: No, you would be a True Believer, ready to prefer your own subjective experience no matter what, and never even consider the possibility that it could have been mistaken -- even if science shows that it could very well be. I can understand that, but I cannot respect it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... wrote : From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com I'm not sure what you mean by normal TM elitist. When I said that the astrologer Howard Sasportas also happened to be a TM teacher, I certainly did not mean that that automatically made him better than others. It was just a piece of information about him, that's all. Sometimes you read things that aren't there. I don't think so. I wasn't referring to Sasportas as all, and in fact neither his name nor any reference you made to him registered to me at all...I've never heard of the guy. I was referring to a *recurring* sense of elitism that I have perceived in you and in *most* long-term TMers, exemplified in statements like I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. I would doubt it. That's elitism. You *look down* on those who don't agree with you. Another aspect of elitism, to an even greater degree, is, I have studied it, you have not, which as Salyavin pointed out wasn't even said by Issac Newton about astrology. You say this a different way in your last statement below. For the record, I *have no problem* with your statements about having learned much about yourself from astrology. That's your concern. Mine is just that as a means of prediction, it's utterly and completely useless. Its predictive value has never and will never be proven in any kind of scientific context in
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
OK August 29th, 1956 8:23 am born Greenwood, SC which is 34.1897° N, 82.1547° W So what does my chart indicate I would be good at (other than criticizing TM). I am asking as a pronounced skeptic. From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : Sal, can you post an article about afield of science you know something about so we can discuss it andask you question about? Eh? I thought I already had What fields of science are you expertin? Your horoscope looks like you might be good at real estate(loaded fourth house) but that's not exactly a science. Real estate, is that buying and selling houses? Not really, maybe more than some due to trades I've done but it's all just about being practical, it isn't something that engages me or that I'd go out of my way to take part in. And I hate all the bloody property shows on TV, I can't believe so many people are so incompetent and lacking in common sense. Still, idiots make better TV... As far as scientific interests go, you know what I like. I don't posts prehistoric stuff just because Dinosaurs look cool. Well, mostly I don't... And I don't post things that I don't understand in case someone does ask me a question. I post stuff because I find it interesting. Are you trying to get at me about something? On 03/02/2015 10:46 PM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : You certainly seem to havea high opinion of science. Science has given us manywonderful things but there are also many things itcannot explain. Can you give us an example of something itcannot explain, as opposed to something it justdoesn't have an explanation for yet? Of the latter there are many but there alwayswere and problems always seem to get solvedeventually. It depends how much effort is being putin. To not have a high opinion of the scientificmethod because it hasn't already answered allquestions is a bit silly when you consider the trackrecord. As for things it can't explain, I don'tbelieve we will ever come across an unsolvableproblem. The universe and everything in it is made ofstuff. Stuff is understandable therefore the universethe universe is understandable. It will be interesting to be proved wrong onthis one. However, this does notmean that those things are untrue or false. There aremore things in heaven and earth, as Hamlet famously saysto Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philsophy. Isuspect that you actually know this very well, and thatyour apparent adherence to science is more of a posethan anything else. You were a spiritual seeker allthose years and now you are telling me you don't believesomething because science tells you it is not so? Isuspect your atheism is also something of a pose, butthat's another story. Feste:As far aswhat science says about astrology, I couldn't careless. If sciencesays astrology is rubbish, that it cannot be true,etc. etc., thatdirectly contradicts my own experience, repeated manytimes over half alifetime. So I go with my own experience. I would be afool not to. Turquoise: No,you would be a True Believer, ready to preferyour own subjectiveexperience no matter what, and never evenconsider the possibility thatit could have been mistaken -- even if scienceshows that it could verywell be. I can understand that, but I cannotrespect it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,turquoiseb@... wrote : From:feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com I'mnot sure what you mean bynormal TM elitist. When I saidthat the astrologer HowardSasportas also happened to be aTM teacher, I certainly did notmean that that automaticallymade him better than others. Itwas just a piece of informationabout him, that's all. Sometimesyou read things that aren'tthere. I don'tthink so. I wasn'treferring to Sasportasas all, and in factneither his name nor anyreference you made tohim registered to me atall...I've never heardof the guy. I wasreferring to a*recurring* sense ofelitism that I haveperceived in you and in*most* long-term TMers,exemplified instatements like I'msorry for thesescientific types whoseminds are so closed. Iwonderwhether any of them haveever had their natalchart done by acompetentastrologer. I woulddoubt it. That'selitism. You *look down*on those who don't agreewith you. Another aspectof elitism, to an evengreater degree, is, Ihave studied it, youhave not, which asSalyavin pointed outwasn't even said byIssac Newton aboutastrology. You say thisa different way in yourlast statement below. For therecord, I *have noproblem* with yourstatements about havinglearned much aboutyourself from astrology.That's your concern.Mine is just that as ameans of prediction,it's utterly andcompletely useless. Itspredictive value hasnever and will never beproven
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : On 03/03/2015 10:19 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... wrote : Sal, can you post an article about a field of science you know something about so we can discuss it and ask you question about? Eh? I thought I already had What fields of science are you expert in? Your horoscope looks like you might be good at real estate (loaded fourth house) but that's not exactly a science. Real estate, is that buying and selling houses? Not really, maybe more than some due to trades I've done but it's all just about being practical, it isn't something that engages me or that I'd go out of my way to take part in. And I hate all the bloody property shows on TV, I can't believe so many people are so incompetent and lacking in common sense. Still, idiots make better TV... The 4th house rules properties and conveyances, the heart and formal education. Your ascendant ruler is in the 4th as is your income house and the planet ruling losses. But Libra ascendants tend to be artsy so the 4th house spin might be along that line. Libras also like to argue amongst themselves, sorta that scales thing. As far as scientific interests go, you know what I like. I don't posts prehistoric stuff just because Dinosaurs look cool. Well, mostly I don't... And I don't post things that I don't understand in case someone does ask me a question. I post stuff because I find it interesting. If I had you look at the sky on a clear night could you point out Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus and Mercury? Oooh yes, I always keep in touch with the positions of the planets*, it gives me a secret pleasure and a connection with my ancient heritage to know what the moon phase is, we live in such an artificial and disconnected world that it's easy to forget we are passengers on a ball of rock flying about in space. I'll always get a kick out of standing in wood at midnight listening to owls and looking at the stars. *Except Mercury, I've never seen that one. Even when it's supposed to visible I can't find it with a star chart and my best binoculars. I used to have part-ownership of a decent telescope and I used to give good tours of the galaxy starting with the planets and especially the Jovian moons and moving out to nebulae and Milky Way, then other galaxies but you don't get to see much of those with any sort of scope, those classics pics you see are all taken with very long exposures. Even the closest large galaxy just looks like a milky smudge, but looking at it with the knowledge that you are seeing light that left its stars before the human race even existed is mind blowing. Are you trying to get at me about something? Just chatting. Good. How we think we know things is an interesting subject. I'd love it if you could publish any thoughts and insights you get from my chart. I promise I'll be honest as usual. But you've read a lot of my posts and probably have filed away a lot of information about my habits and some of it without realising no doubt, so it won't qualify as a scientific experiment - just covering myself ;-). Be fun though.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
On 03/03/2015 10:19 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : Sal, can you post an article about a field of science you know something about so we can discuss it and ask you question about? Eh? I thought I already had What fields of science are you expert in? Your horoscope looks like you might be good at real estate (loaded fourth house) but that's not exactly a science. Real estate, is that buying and selling houses? Not really, maybe more than some due to trades I've done but it's all just about being practical, it isn't something that engages me or that I'd go out of my way to take part in. And I hate all the bloody property shows on TV, I can't believe so many people are so incompetent and lacking in common sense. Still, idiots make better TV... The 4th house rules properties and conveyances, the heart and formal education. Your ascendant ruler is in the 4th as is your income house and the planet ruling losses. But Libra ascendants tend to be artsy so the 4th house spin might be along that line. Libras also like to argue amongst themselves, sorta that scales thing. As far as scientific interests go, you know what I like. I don't posts prehistoric stuff just because Dinosaurs look cool. Well, mostly I don't... And I don't post things that I don't understand in case someone does ask me a question. I post stuff because I find it interesting. If I had you look at the sky on a clear night could you point out Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus and Mercury? Are you trying to get at me about something? Just chatting.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
On 03/03/2015 10:31 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : I think the discussion would be different here if our resident astrology critics were actually scientists. It wouldn't. It might be a bit /more so/ but you won't find any astronomers or psychologists who think that the position of planets against a random background of stars can tell you anything about you or your day that you don't already or know or could have found out through less esoteric means. Gee I didn't know that the stars rearranged themselves all the time. The constellations were of course used as markers. Maybe the planets too for demarcating repeating cycles in nature that often also reflect in our personal lives as well as society in general. I know several psychologists who practice astrology. You lose a point there. And a few astronomers too. Ding! Again. A geophysicist was a member of a jyotish study group and his wife wrote about astrology, yoga, gurus, etc. Science is about finding the best explanation for a given phenomenon. The trials that have been conducted into astrology (Xeno posted a good one the other day) come back negative. If it works we should be able to prove it. Simple really. Especially considering its claimed power. All but a few researches have been pretty lame because they were conducted by people who knew very little about astrology. I told my friend who commented on that one study I posted a link to the other day that I could just imagine the answers I would get back from a questionnaire asking what street people know about astrology. Most astrologers would probably laugh to and that's why they could care less what the rest of the world thinks. To me it makes no sense whatsoever, I can't fit it into cosmology, psychology, evolutionary theory. It's just a bizarre thing that people believe. If it makes them happy then fine but I suspect it's all about intuition and people thinking about people, I don't think it's anything to do with planets in any way whatsoever. I convert for evidence. But it''s going to have to be good. Okay, the Sun and Moon aren't planets per se. But I guess you wouldn't deny the effects of tides would you? Of course in jyotish the planets are called grahas and include the Sun, Moon as well as the lunar nodes. I've said that some of the planets could be markers which makes sense. After all people used to tell time via the Sun and Moon. Then there is the yet inconclusive research into the vibration effects of planets that seem to still reach earth. This is rather new and is coming from the research into the effects of smartphone, wifi and other electromagnetic impulse and how they can influence our minds. Looks like they resonate the calcium molecules in our brains. But they are just science fans and like to post links to articles to make people think they are smarter than they are. It's a poser thing. Thing is, if they post something that is a field of science some of us know about or work with they become mute if you want to discuss that field. :-D On 03/02/2015 05:17 PM, feste37 wrote: You certainly seem to have a high opinion of science. Science has given us many wonderful things but there are also many things it cannot explain. However, this does not mean that those things are untrue or false. There are more things in heaven and earth, as Hamlet famously says to Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philsophy. I suspect that you actually know this very well, and that your apparent adherence to science is more of a pose than anything else. You were a spiritual seeker all those years and now you are telling me you don't believe something because science tells you it is not so? I suspect your atheism is also something of a pose, but that's another story. Feste: As far as what science says about astrology, I couldn't care less. If science says astrology is rubbish, that it cannot be true, etc. etc., that directly contradicts my own experience, repeated many times over half a lifetime. So I go with my own experience. I would be a fool not to. */Turquoise: No, you would be a True Believer, ready to prefer your own subjective experience no matter what, and never even consider the possibility that it could have been mistaken -- even if science shows that it could very well be. I can understand that, but I cannot respect it. /* ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... wrote : *From:* feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com I'm not sure what you mean by normal TM elitist. When I said that the astrologer Howard Sasportas also happened to be a TM teacher, I certainly did not mean that that automatically made him better than others. It was just a piece of information about him, that's all. Sometimes you read things that aren't there.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : On 03/03/2015 02:25 PM, salyavin808 wrote: If I had you look at the sky on a clear night could you point out Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus and Mercury? Oooh yes, I always keep in touch with the positions of the planets*, it gives me a secret pleasure and a connection with my ancient heritage to know what the moon phase is, we live in such an artificial and disconnected world that it's easy to forget we are passengers on a ball of rock flying about in space. I'll always get a kick out of standing in wood at midnight listening to owls and looking at the stars. *Except Mercury, I've never seen that one. Even when it's supposed to visible I can't find it with a star chart and my best binoculars. I used to have part-ownership of a decent telescope and I used to give good tours of the galaxy starting with the planets and especially the Jovian moons and moving out to nebulae and Milky Way, then other galaxies but you don't get to see much of those with any sort of scope, those classics pics you see are all taken with very long exposures. Even the closest large galaxy just looks like a milky smudge, but looking at it with the knowledge that you are seeing light that left its stars before the human race even existed is mind blowing. Yes, Mercury was a trick question though there was a time a couple years back it was visible with the naked eye for a few days. I remember that, I was out on the hills with my mates and all our optical gear and cameras with long lenses, couldn't find it. Would have been nice to complete my personal knowledge of the solar system. The ancients must have been astute to have found it in the first place. Maybe they discovered it the way we discovered Neptune - by calculating it must exist by the effect it has on the orbits other planets that can't be explained in any other way - only with Mercury they realised there was a personality trait that some people have that couldn't be accounted for without a small rocky planet travelling fast near the sun. Come to think of it, that should have happened with Uranus and Neptune, if astrology is relevant. Unaccounted for events and personality types have to have a planetary reason if other effects are due to (or in any way synchronous with) planets. Now that would have been a good test of it. If I showed you a jyotish chart of the day could you tell me which planets are visible at night and which ones won't be? Possibly, but I'd be more puzzled about why it's such an inaccurate representation of the heavens.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
would be different here if our resident astrology critics were actually scientists. It wouldn't. It might be a bit more so but you won't find any astronomers or psychologists who think that the position of planets against a random background of stars can tell you anything about you or your day that you don't already or know or could have found out through less esoteric means. -In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... wrote : Gee I didn't know that the stars rearranged themselves all the time. The constellations were of course used as markers. Maybe the planets too for demarcating repeating cycles in nature that often also reflect in our personal lives as well as society in general. Apparently it's not all that difficult if you were a True Believer I've seen him -- so help me -- move the fucking stars around in the sky, shift whole constellations, draw smiley faces with them. That's a real corker to digest, because you know that physically they weren't moving around, at least in this dimension, or a bunch of astronomers would've had a hissy fit. Yet they moved around. I saw it, and hundreds of other students saw it. - TurquoiseB http://www.mail-archive.com/fairfieldlife%40yahoogroups.com/msg12287.html http://www.mail-archive.com/fairfieldlife%40yahoogroups.com/msg12287.html
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : On 03/03/2015 10:31 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... wrote : I think the discussion would be different here if our resident astrology critics were actually scientists. It wouldn't. It might be a bit more so but you won't find any astronomers or psychologists who think that the position of planets against a random background of stars can tell you anything about you or your day that you don't already or know or could have found out through less esoteric means. Gee I didn't know that the stars rearranged themselves all the time. You din't read that properly. The backdrop of stars is effectively random because they could be swapped with any others in any position and we would still be the same. The constellations are arbitrary pictures drawn by anthropomorphic pattern making people who didn't know what they were looking at. Saying this doesn't denigrate them, they did an amazing job of mapping the heaves but the explanation for what they were looking at has been improved somewhat. The constellations were of course used as markers. Maybe the planets too for demarcating repeating cycles in nature that often also reflect in our personal lives as well as society in general. I know several psychologists who practice astrology. That doesn't mean it's true. In fact I find it highly worrying, it doesn't get incorporated into professional assessments does it? You lose a point there. And a few astronomers too. Ding! Again. Do post their names and the names of the institutions they work for. I'd be interested to see how they square the circle. Mind you, there are creationist biologists, religion can distort the ability to incorporate known facts into an unreasonable world view. You have to apply the logically justified principles onto the science you study, you can ignore it in favour of your beliefs but sooner or later it breaks down. Unless, in the case of astrology, it's so vague that it doesn't interfere with observed data until you try and catch it out. So people probably choose the comfort it gives over the hard facts. A geophysicist was a member of a jyotish study group and his wife wrote about astrology, yoga, gurus, etc. I can't wait to see his paper on how everyone else has it wrong and the planets actually do emit a vibrating wave that affects our personalities. I got that explanation from a BBC debate about astrology, this was the offered explanation from a Jyotishee in the audience, apparently your position on the planet means you get a different blend of vibrating waves from the planets that, erm, somehow stays with you throughout your life and can be used to help you with everything from choosing a career to when to get married. All a bit silly as unless there is a control you, you'll never know if a different career/wife would have been better. His emitted wave theory is rubbish too, obviously. Hearteningly, nobody in the audience believed a word of it, apart from the other astrologer. This is really the problem. If we had never heard of astrology and you were to propose it as a scientifically credible system now, what would the evidence look like? Would you say that everything we know about psychology is wrong and all psychosocial phenomenon are better explained by the movement of planets against an arbitrary background? How convincing would it be? Would it outweigh the way we look at ourselves and turn Stephen Hawking into a devotee? I would say that as it's such a radical idea it would have to be as revolutionary as general relativity was but as it is it seems like it can co-exist with anything you like and never conclusively prove itself.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com This is really the problem. If we had never heard of astrology and you were to propose it as a scientifically credible system now, what would the evidence look like? Would you say that everything we know about psychology is wrong and all psychosocial phenomenon are better explained by the movement of planets against an arbitrary background? Bingo! This is really it. I bailed from the TMO long before it embarrassed itself by trying to sell its cultist-followers the idea that astrology was a science. If I had still been around at that point, I would have laughed in Maharishi's face and told him the same things I have been posting here, that it's a pseudoscience that appeals only to weak-minded people and that neither he nor anyone else is ever likely to prove that it works. But other people were still TBs, and thus bought into it without ever putting their minds and their discrimination in gear. Some of them actually went out and spent years trying to become Jyotishi themselves. Therefore, *they are heavily invested in the past*. It's harder for them to allow even the *concept* that it's all bullshit into their minds, because they invested so much of their time, energy, money, and above all ego in identifying with astrology. As you suggest above, if someone were to propose something as ludicrous as astrology here on FFL today, something they *hadn't* invested in for decades, they'd probably be as rationally skeptical as anyone else. But they simply can't go there with astrology/jyotish because they can't accept even for moment that they might have been W...w...w...wrong, and taken in by a pseudoscience that pandered to their egos and those egos' need to believe that they somehow could predict the future and explain the past and the present. As you may have noticed, Sal, I don't get involved with arguing with such people, just as I don't get involved with theists who try to convert others to their beliefs or political crackpots who try to convert others to their conspiracy theories. There is just too much ego there for me to want to go anywhere near it. The part I like about science in its ideal form is its willingness to *throw away* old theories the moment they are proved inadequate. REAL scientists can do that. Faux scientists can't. They're more like the astrologers and the theists and the people who believe that humans never walked on the moon -- *committed*. At some point in their lives they *settled*. They decided that the things they were told to believe were *right*, and having made that decision, their egos became so identified with that belief that at this point it is literally *impossible* for them to step back and question the beliefs themselves. The only thing they can do is cling to the stuff they were told and try to demonize or silence those who challenge it. In other words, arguing with an astrologer is like arguing with a pig. It never accomplishes anything, it pisses off the pig, and it spoils the taste of the bacon. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Maybe its time to show some credentials around here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : Sal, can you post an article about a field of science you know something about so we can discuss it and ask you question about? Eh? I thought I already had What fields of science are you expert in? Your horoscope looks like you might be good at real estate (loaded fourth house) but that's not exactly a science. Real estate, is that buying and selling houses? Not really, maybe more than some due to trades I've done but it's all just about being practical, it isn't something that engages me or that I'd go out of my way to take part in. And I hate all the bloody property shows on TV, I can't believe so many people are so incompetent and lacking in common sense. Still, idiots make better TV... As far as scientific interests go, you know what I like. I don't posts prehistoric stuff just because Dinosaurs look cool. Well, mostly I don't... And I don't post things that I don't understand in case someone does ask me a question. I post stuff because I find it interesting. Are you trying to get at me about something? On 03/02/2015 10:46 PM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : You certainly seem to have a high opinion of science. Science has given us many wonderful things but there are also many things it cannot explain. Can you give us an example of something it cannot explain, as opposed to something it just doesn't have an explanation for yet? Of the latter there are many but there always were and problems always seem to get solved eventually. It depends how much effort is being put in. To not have a high opinion of the scientific method because it hasn't already answered all questions is a bit silly when you consider the track record. As for things it can't explain, I don't believe we will ever come across an unsolvable problem. The universe and everything in it is made of stuff. Stuff is understandable therefore the universe the universe is understandable. It will be interesting to be proved wrong on this one. However, this does not mean that those things are untrue or false. There are more things in heaven and earth, as Hamlet famously says to Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philsophy. I suspect that you actually know this very well, and that your apparent adherence to science is more of a pose than anything else. You were a spiritual seeker all those years and now you are telling me you don't believe something because science tells you it is not so? I suspect your atheism is also something of a pose, but that's another story. Feste: As far as what science says about astrology, I couldn't care less. If science says astrology is rubbish, that it cannot be true, etc. etc., that directly contradicts my own experience, repeated many times over half a lifetime. So I go with my own experience. I would be a fool not to. Turquoise: No, you would be a True Believer, ready to prefer your own subjective experience no matter what, and never even consider the possibility that it could have been mistaken -- even if science shows that it could very well be. I can understand that, but I cannot respect it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... wrote : From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com I'm not sure what you mean by normal TM elitist. When I said that the astrologer Howard Sasportas also happened to be a TM teacher, I certainly did not mean that that automatically made him better than others. It was just a piece of information about him, that's all. Sometimes you read things that aren't there. I don't think so. I wasn't referring to Sasportas as all, and in fact neither his name nor any reference you made to him registered to me at all...I've never heard of the guy. I was referring to a *recurring* sense of elitism that I have perceived in you and in *most* long-term TMers, exemplified in statements like I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. I would doubt it. That's elitism. You *look down* on those who don't agree with you. Another aspect of elitism, to an even greater degree, is, I have studied it, you have not, which as Salyavin pointed out wasn't even said by Issac Newton about astrology. You say this a different way in your last statement below. For the record, I *have no problem* with your statements about having learned much about yourself from astrology. That's your concern. Mine is just that as a means of prediction, it's utterly and completely useless. Its predictive value has never and will
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
According to my calculations, if you couldn't even be depended on to set a table in the campus dinning room, then I wouldn't trust you with even washing a single dish, no matter what time or where you were born. Apparently you sucked at being a bus-boy ay MIU - let's hope by now you've developed some skills, but judging by your current performance, or lack of same, I don't think I would even give you a job cleaning out the chicken coop on a farm. But, that's just my opinion. Maybe you could list a few skills so we could get a better idea of your work experience since 1975. Thanks. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : OK August 29th, 1956 8:23 am born Greenwood, SC which is 34.1897° N, 82.1547° W So what does my chart indicate I would be good at (other than criticizing TM). I am asking as a pronounced skeptic. From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : Sal, can you post an article about a field of science you know something about so we can discuss it and ask you question about? Eh? I thought I already had What fields of science are you expert in? Your horoscope looks like you might be good at real estate (loaded fourth house) but that's not exactly a science. Real estate, is that buying and selling houses? Not really, maybe more than some due to trades I've done but it's all just about being practical, it isn't something that engages me or that I'd go out of my way to take part in. And I hate all the bloody property shows on TV, I can't believe so many people are so incompetent and lacking in common sense. Still, idiots make better TV... As far as scientific interests go, you know what I like. I don't posts prehistoric stuff just because Dinosaurs look cool. Well, mostly I don't... And I don't post things that I don't understand in case someone does ask me a question. I post stuff because I find it interesting. Are you trying to get at me about something? On 03/02/2015 10:46 PM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : You certainly seem to have a high opinion of science. Science has given us many wonderful things but there are also many things it cannot explain. Can you give us an example of something it cannot explain, as opposed to something it just doesn't have an explanation for yet? Of the latter there are many but there always were and problems always seem to get solved eventually. It depends how much effort is being put in. To not have a high opinion of the scientific method because it hasn't already answered all questions is a bit silly when you consider the track record. As for things it can't explain, I don't believe we will ever come across an unsolvable problem. The universe and everything in it is made of stuff. Stuff is understandable therefore the universe the universe is understandable. It will be interesting to be proved wrong on this one. However, this does not mean that those things are untrue or false. There are more things in heaven and earth, as Hamlet famously says to Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philsophy. I suspect that you actually know this very well, and that your apparent adherence to science is more of a pose than anything else. You were a spiritual seeker all those years and now you are telling me you don't believe something because science tells you it is not so? I suspect your atheism is also something of a pose, but that's another story. Feste: As far as what science says about astrology, I couldn't care less. If science says astrology is rubbish, that it cannot be true, etc. etc., that directly contradicts my own experience, repeated many times over half a lifetime. So I go with my own experience. I would be a fool not to. Turquoise: No, you would be a True Believer, ready to prefer your own subjective experience no matter what, and never even consider the possibility that it could have been mistaken -- even if science shows that it could very well be. I can understand that, but I cannot respect it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... wrote : From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com I'm not sure what you mean by normal TM elitist. When I said that the astrologer Howard Sasportas also happened to be a TM teacher, I certainly did not mean that that automatically made him better than others. It was just a piece of information about him, that's all. Sometimes you read things that aren't there. I don't think so. I wasn't referring to Sasportas
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
On 03/03/2015 02:25 PM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : On 03/03/2015 10:19 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... wrote : Sal, can you post an article about a field of science you know something about so we can discuss it and ask you question about? Eh? I thought I already had What fields of science are you expert in? Your horoscope looks like you might be good at real estate (loaded fourth house) but that's not exactly a science. Real estate, is that buying and selling houses? Not really, maybe more than some due to trades I've done but it's all just about being practical, it isn't something that engages me or that I'd go out of my way to take part in. And I hate all the bloody property shows on TV, I can't believe so many people are so incompetent and lacking in common sense. Still, idiots make better TV... The 4th house rules properties and conveyances, the heart and formal education. Your ascendant ruler is in the 4th as is your income house and the planet ruling losses. But Libra ascendants tend to be artsy so the 4th house spin might be along that line. Libras also like to argue amongst themselves, sorta that scales thing. As far as scientific interests go, you know what I like. I don't posts prehistoric stuff just because Dinosaurs look cool. Well, mostly I don't... And I don't post things that I don't understand in case someone does ask me a question. I post stuff because I find it interesting. If I had you look at the sky on a clear night could you point out Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus and Mercury? Oooh yes, I always keep in touch with the positions of the planets*, it gives me a secret pleasure and a connection with my ancient heritage to know what the moon phase is, we live in such an artificial and disconnected world that it's easy to forget we are passengers on a ball of rock flying about in space. I'll always get a kick out of standing in wood at midnight listening to owls and looking at the stars. *Except Mercury, I've never seen that one. Even when it's supposed to visible I can't find it with a star chart and my best binoculars. I used to have part-ownership of a decent telescope and I used to give good tours of the galaxy starting with the planets and especially the Jovian moons and moving out to nebulae and Milky Way, then other galaxies but you don't get to see much of those with any sort of scope, those classics pics you see are all taken with very long exposures. Even the closest large galaxy just looks like a milky smudge, but looking at it with the knowledge that you are seeing light that left its stars before the human race even existed is mind blowing. Yes, Mercury was a trick question though there was a time a couple years back it was visible with the naked eye for a few days. If I showed you a jyotish chart of the day could you tell me which planets are visible at night and which ones won't be? Are you trying to get at me about something? Just chatting. Good. How we think we know things is an interesting subject. I'd love it if you could publish any thoughts and insights you get from my chart. I promise I'll be honest as usual. But you've read a lot of my posts and probably have filed away a lot of information about my habits and some of it without realising no doubt, so it won't qualify as a scientific experiment - just covering myself ;-). Be fun though.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Why should we not be surprised that MJ is a Leo rising with the Sun in his first house! :-D That makes you fiercely independent not to mention fiery. You would do well running your own business. However we should not be surprised given your storytelling skills that Venus is in your 11th house. A bit weak though and that would account for you not going into it as a living. Not knowing your writing an astrologer would probably say you have opportunities at earning income through creative endeavors. Rahu and Ketu are debilitated so why shouldn't we be surprised that you are on the warpath about TM. On 03/03/2015 02:00 PM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: OK August 29th, 1956 8:23 am born Greenwood, SC which is 34.1897° N, 82.1547° W So what does my chart indicate I would be good at (other than criticizing TM). I am asking as a pronounced skeptic. *From:* salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Tuesday, March 3, 2015 1:19 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : Sal, can you post an article about a field of science you know something about so we can discuss it and ask you question about? Eh? I thought I already had What fields of science are you expert in? Your horoscope looks like you might be good at real estate (loaded fourth house) but that's not exactly a science. Real estate, is that buying and selling houses? Not really, maybe more than some due to trades I've done but it's all just about being practical, it isn't something that engages me or that I'd go out of my way to take part in. And I hate all the bloody property shows on TV, I can't believe so many people are so incompetent and lacking in common sense. Still, idiots make better TV... As far as scientific interests go, you know what I like. I don't posts prehistoric stuff just because Dinosaurs look cool. Well, mostly I don't... And I don't post things that I don't understand in case someone does ask me a question. I post stuff because I find it interesting. Are you trying to get at me about something? On 03/02/2015 10:46 PM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : You certainly seem to have a high opinion of science. Science has given us many wonderful things but there are also many things it cannot explain. Can you give us an example of something it cannot explain, as opposed to something it just doesn't have an explanation for yet? Of the latter there are many but there always were and problems always seem to get solved eventually. It depends how much effort is being put in. To not have a high opinion of the scientific method because it hasn't already answered all questions is a bit silly when you consider the track record. As for things it can't explain, I don't believe we will ever come across an unsolvable problem. The universe and everything in it is made of stuff. Stuff is understandable therefore the universe the universe is understandable. It will be interesting to be proved wrong on this one. However, this does not mean that those things are untrue or false. There are more things in heaven and earth, as Hamlet famously says to Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philsophy. I suspect that you actually know this very well, and that your apparent adherence to science is more of a pose than anything else. You were a spiritual seeker all those years and now you are telling me you don't believe something because science tells you it is not so? I suspect your atheism is also something of a pose, but that's another story. Feste: As far as what science says about astrology, I couldn't care less. If science says astrology is rubbish, that it cannot be true, etc. etc., that directly contradicts my own experience, repeated many times over half a lifetime. So I go with my own experience. I would be a fool not to. */Turquoise: No, you would be a True Believer, ready to prefer your own subjective experience no matter what, and never even consider the possibility that it could have been mistaken -- even if science shows that it could very well be. I can understand that, but I cannot respect it. /* ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... wrote : *From:* feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com I'm not sure what you mean by normal TM elitist. When I said that the astrologer Howard Sasportas also happened to be a TM teacher, I certainly did not mean that that automatically made him better than others. It was just a piece of information about him, that's all. Sometimes you read things
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Well! I was always tolt I was a Virgo, but whadda I know? From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? Why should we not be surprised that MJ is a Leo rising with the Sun in his first house! :-D That makes you fiercely independent not to mention fiery. You would do well running your own business. However we should not be surprised given your storytelling skills that Venus is in your 11th house. A bit weak though and that would account for you not going into it as a living. Not knowing your writing an astrologer would probably say you have opportunities at earning income through creative endeavors. Rahu and Ketu are debilitated so why shouldn't we be surprised that you are on the warpath about TM. On 03/03/2015 02:00 PM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: OK August 29th, 1956 8:23 am born Greenwood, SC which is 34.1897° N, 82.1547° W So what does my chart indicate I would be good at (other than criticizing TM). I am asking as a pronounced skeptic. From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : Sal, can you post an article about a field of science you know something about so we can discuss it and ask you question about? Eh? I thought I already had What fields of science are you expert in? Your horoscope looks like you might be good at real estate (loaded fourth house) but that's not exactly a science. Real estate, is that buying and selling houses? Not really, maybe more than some due to trades I've done but it's all just about being practical, it isn't something that engages me or that I'd go out of my way to take part in. And I hate all the bloody property shows on TV, I can't believe so many people are so incompetent and lacking in common sense. Still, idiots make better TV... As far as scientific interests go, you know what I like. I don't posts prehistoric stuff just because Dinosaurs look cool. Well, mostly I don't... And I don't post things that I don't understand in case someone does ask me a question. I post stuff because I find it interesting. Are you trying to get at me about something? On 03/02/2015 10:46 PM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : You certainly seem to have a high opinion of science. Science has given us many wonderful things but there are also many things it cannot explain. Can you give us an example of something it cannot explain, as opposed to something it just doesn't have an explanation for yet? Of the latter there are many but there always were and problems always seem to get solved eventually. It depends how much effort is being put in. To not have a high opinion of the scientific method because it hasn't already answered all questions is a bit silly when you consider the track record. As for things it can't explain, I don't believe we will ever come across an unsolvable problem. The universe and everything in it is made of stuff. Stuff is understandable therefore the universe the universe is understandable. It will be interesting to be proved wrong on this one. However, this does not mean that those things are untrue or false. There are more things in heaven and earth, as Hamlet famously says to Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philsophy. I suspect that you actually know this very well, and that your apparent adherence to science is more of a pose than anything else. You were a spiritual seeker all those years and now you are telling me you don't believe something because science tells you it is not so? I suspect your atheism is also something of a pose, but that's another story. Feste:As far as what science says about astrology, I couldn't care less. If science says astrology is rubbish, that it cannot be true, etc. etc., that directly contradicts my own experience, repeated many times over half a lifetime. So I go with my own experience. I would be a fool not to. Turquoise: No, you would be a True Believer, ready to prefer your own subjective experience no matter what, and never even consider the possibility that it could have been mistaken -- even if science shows that it could very well be. I can understand that, but I cannot respect it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com I'mnot sure what you mean by normal TM elitist. When I said that the astrologer Howard Sasportas also happened to be a TM teacher, I
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
With EST it would be Virgo. But then the ascendant lord is also in the first. Virgo for some reason doesn't feel right. You sure on the birth time? On 03/03/2015 05:56 PM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Well! I was always tolt I was a Virgo, but whadda I know? *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Tuesday, March 3, 2015 5:47 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? Why should we not be surprised that MJ is a Leo rising with the Sun in his first house! :-D That makes you fiercely independent not to mention fiery. You would do well running your own business. However we should not be surprised given your storytelling skills that Venus is in your 11th house. A bit weak though and that would account for you not going into it as a living. Not knowing your writing an astrologer would probably say you have opportunities at earning income through creative endeavors. Rahu and Ketu are debilitated so why shouldn't we be surprised that you are on the warpath about TM. On 03/03/2015 02:00 PM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com mailto:mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: OK August 29th, 1956 8:23 am born Greenwood, SC which is 34.1897° N, 82.1547° W So what does my chart indicate I would be good at (other than criticizing TM). I am asking as a pronounced skeptic. *From:* salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Tuesday, March 3, 2015 1:19 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... wrote : Sal, can you post an article about a field of science you know something about so we can discuss it and ask you question about? Eh? I thought I already had What fields of science are you expert in? Your horoscope looks like you might be good at real estate (loaded fourth house) but that's not exactly a science. Real estate, is that buying and selling houses? Not really, maybe more than some due to trades I've done but it's all just about being practical, it isn't something that engages me or that I'd go out of my way to take part in. And I hate all the bloody property shows on TV, I can't believe so many people are so incompetent and lacking in common sense. Still, idiots make better TV... As far as scientific interests go, you know what I like. I don't posts prehistoric stuff just because Dinosaurs look cool. Well, mostly I don't... And I don't post things that I don't understand in case someone does ask me a question. I post stuff because I find it interesting. Are you trying to get at me about something? On 03/02/2015 10:46 PM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : You certainly seem to have a high opinion of science. Science has given us many wonderful things but there are also many things it cannot explain. Can you give us an example of something it cannot explain, as opposed to something it just doesn't have an explanation for yet? Of the latter there are many but there always were and problems always seem to get solved eventually. It depends how much effort is being put in. To not have a high opinion of the scientific method because it hasn't already answered all questions is a bit silly when you consider the track record. As for things it can't explain, I don't believe we will ever come across an unsolvable problem. The universe and everything in it is made of stuff. Stuff is understandable therefore the universe the universe is understandable. It will be interesting to be proved wrong on this one. However, this does not mean that those things are untrue or false. There are more things in heaven and earth, as Hamlet famously says to Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philsophy. I suspect that you actually know this very well, and that your apparent adherence to science is more of a pose than anything else. You were a spiritual seeker all those years and now you are telling me you don't believe something because science tells you it is not so? I suspect your atheism is also something of a pose, but that's another story. Feste: As far as what science says about astrology, I couldn't care less. If science says astrology is rubbish, that it cannot be true, etc. etc., that directly contradicts my own experience, repeated many times over half a lifetime. So I go with my own experience. I would be a fool not to. */Turquoise: No, you
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
not the props that contain any useful insights into who you are, it's your own mind, and you're just *tricking* it into revealing them by looking at an astrology chart. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) As for the sceptics, I am reminded of the remark attributed to Isaac Newton when the astronomer Halley tweaked him about his belief in astrology. Sir, I have studied it; you have not. And as I tried unsuccessfully to convey to Bhairitu (and before him JR and Judy and several others), that's just elitism and cult thinking talking. IMO, the claim that You can't understand this unless you've studied it as long as I have is the same thing as saying You can't understand this unless you've been brainwashed as long as I have. People who use this tired old argument want skeptics to INVEST their time, energy, and money into learning about astrology in the hopes that they'll then be as INVESTED IN IT as they are. Well, it doesn't work -- back in the 60s I learned how to draw up Western astrology charts, and without the benefit of any of the programs you probably use. I used paper ephemeri and math. I read dozens of books, and because NONE of what I read turned out to have any basis in truth, I still came away a skeptic. So drop this tired old You have to study it to understand it routine, OK? It's bullshit, and *undermines* your arguments, not strengthens them. Here's what would convince me. A real, solid experiment with solid protocols. For example, for a dozen subjects, a dozen noted astrologers are given their birth data *and nothing else*. The astrologers never get to meet the subjects, are never even told what sex they are (it shouldn't matter if the stars run everything), and the subjects don't ask them any questions. Then the astrologers draw up charts and make three concrete predictions for each subject. By concrete I mean something that is not hazy or general in any way and thus open to interpretation. None of that crap that JR tried to pull once by predicting that something big will happen to Rick in the next few months. That's laughable...even carnival hucksters can do better than that. No, these predictions have to be specific, and VERIFIABLE. If you say that the person will get ill, you have to say exactly when, and what type of illness it is. If you tell someone that they will come into money, again you have to specify exactly when, but you also have to specify the source and and general amount. I come into money every month when I receive my paycheck, and a charlatan astrologer could (and probably would) interpret that as having been correct. Anyway, you get the picture. There will be judges, and they get to decide whether the astrologers' predictions are specific and verifiable enough. If they're not, they either have to drop out of the study or rework them until they meet the requirements. None of the predictions can be for a period longer than three months in the future, so that the study can actually be completed. The subjects are NEVER told what the predictions are. This is key, or they could mood-make them into coming true. Only the researchers and the astrologers ever know what was predicted. Then you just wait, and after three months you tally up the data. My bet is that fewer than 5% of the predictions would be verified as true. But I do this as an exercise in demonstrating how a skeptic like me would design such a study, and at the same time demonstrating what charlatans the astrologers are, because they'd never agree to it. They depend (and in many cases their income depends) on being able to see their clients in real life or in a photo and thus do a cold reading on them, and on being able to get away with speaking in generalizations that would be true for *anyone*. There. I've replied, and I hope I haven't been too mean. Now we'll see whether any of the believers in astrology here are willing to do anything in response but call me names. :-) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : You certainly seem to have a high opinion of science. Science has given us many wonderful things but there are also many things it cannot explain. Can you give us an example of something it cannot explain, as opposed to something it just doesn't have an explanation for yet? Of the latter there are many but there always were and problems always seem to get solved eventually. It depends how much effort is being put in. To not have a high opinion of the scientific method because it hasn't already answered all questions is a bit silly when you consider the track record. I think what Feste is objecting to is that science balks at giving him the easy answers he's grown used to from religion and from the TMO. Easy answers are...uh...easy, because their purpose is not to actually answer any questions. Their purpose is to shut the questioners up and keep them from asking more questions.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
been too mean. Now we'll see whether any of the believers in astrology here are willing to do anything in response but call me names. :-) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
I suspect that your suspicions have more to do with your inability to think outside the box you've been taught to think within than anyone else. I really have no need for a God, and don't see how *anyone* does. Similarly, having experienced most of the states that people seek and having found them no better or more fulfilling than any other states, I don't seek. I do understand why others continue to do so, but I'm really not one of those people. What you people flock to gurus and pay fortunes to attend courses for, I get from watching a great sunrise or hearing the laughter of a small child. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 2:17 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You certainly seem to have a high opinion of science. Science has given us many wonderful things but there are also many things it cannot explain. However, this does not mean that those things are untrue or false. There are more things in heaven and earth, as Hamlet famously says to Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philsophy. I suspect that you actually know this very well, and that your apparent adherence to science is more of a pose than anything else. You were a spiritual seeker all those years and now you are telling me you don't believe something because science tells you it is not so? I suspect your atheism is also something of a pose, but that's another story. Feste: As far as what science says about astrology, I couldn't care less. If science says astrology is rubbish, that it cannot be true, etc. etc., that directly contradicts my own experience, repeated many times over half a lifetime. So I go with my own experience. I would be a fool not to. Turquoise: No, you would be a True Believer, ready to prefer your own subjective experience no matter what, and never even consider the possibility that it could have been mistaken -- even if science shows that it could very well be. I can understand that, but I cannot respect it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com I'm not sure what you mean by normal TM elitist. When I said that the astrologer Howard Sasportas also happened to be a TM teacher, I certainly did not mean that that automatically made him better than others. It was just a piece of information about him, that's all. Sometimes you read things that aren't there. I don't think so. I wasn't referring to Sasportas as all, and in fact neither his name nor any reference you made to him registered to me at all...I've never heard of the guy. I was referring to a *recurring* sense of elitism that I have perceived in you and in *most* long-term TMers, exemplified in statements like I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonderwhether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competentastrologer. I would doubt it. That's elitism. You *look down* on those who don't agree with you. Another aspect of elitism, to an even greater degree, is, I have studied it, you have not, which as Salyavin pointed out wasn't even said by Issac Newton about astrology. You say this a different way in your last statement below. For the record, I *have no problem* with your statements about having learned much about yourself from astrology. That's your concern. Mine is just that as a means of prediction, it's utterly and completely useless. Its predictive value has never and will never be proven in any kind of scientific context in which the astrologers are blinded from meeting their clients (and thus cold-reading them) and prevented from making generalized predictions that would apply to anyone. Another aspect of what I call TM elitism is that long-term TMers tend to believe pretty much *what they were told to believe* by Maharishi, and seem incapable of challenging or questioning it. We will have to agree to differ about astrology. That's fine with me. There's far more to it than intuition. I don't think so. As I explained to Sal, the readings I had were not vague generalities. They were precise and accurate, and they very much related to me as a specific individual. You must have either seen some bad astrologers or have been so lacking in self-insight that you didn't recognize yourself in what they told you. Either that, or you are like all of those college students in the famous experiment who were all given the exact same horoscope to read and told that it was done for them personally. When the real nature of the experiment was revealed to them, over half refused to believe that it was true. Even when they compared the readings they'd been given line for line and found them identical, a few refused to believe it and thought that someone had switched them to play a trick on them. I think that it's more likely that you bought into generalities
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
He has played this card so many times I lost count. But, one thing is for sure - he can't prove that Rama levitated slowly up off of a sofa at the downtown L.A. Denny's. The reason he can't prove it is because they don't even have sofas at the L.A. Denny's. Not to mention that hippies don't even earn enough money to eat at Denny's, according to Mark Laxer. In practice, members give Lenz almost all their money, according to published reports and ex-followers. They squeeze into shared, unfurnished apartments while he flies in a Lear jet between houses in Long Island, Santa Fe, and Los Angeles. - Mark Laxer 'Take Me for a Ride: Coming of Age in a Destructive Cult' by Mark E. Laxer Outer Rim Press, 1993. I've seen someone levitate. Many times. In many settings, from the Los Angeles Convention Center to the Anza-Borrego Desert to a Denny's restaurant in the wee hours of the night. - TurquoiseB ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Okay, this is the only card that Barry ever plays. Prove It I don't see anyone arguing that it can be proved. But, look at it from the opposing angle. I mean look at what Barry's belief system has produced for him. A negative, cynical, and apparently lonely person, who spends an inordinate amount of time in cafes, or pubs, or watching television. So, is the result of someone who is passionate only about this one cause, and basically engages with those like minded about this single cause? Food for thought? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com I'm not sure what you mean by normal TM elitist. When I said that the astrologer Howard Sasportas also happened to be a TM teacher, I certainly did not mean that that automatically made him better than others. It was just a piece of information about him, that's all. Sometimes you read things that aren't there. I don't think so. I wasn't referring to Sasportas as all, and in fact neither his name nor any reference you made to him registered to me at all...I've never heard of the guy. I was referring to a *recurring* sense of elitism that I have perceived in you and in *most* long-term TMers, exemplified in statements like I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. I would doubt it. That's elitism. You *look down* on those who don't agree with you. Another aspect of elitism, to an even greater degree, is, I have studied it, you have not, which as Salyavin pointed out wasn't even said by Issac Newton about astrology. You say this a different way in your last statement below. For the record, I *have no problem* with your statements about having learned much about yourself from astrology. That's your concern. Mine is just that as a means of prediction, it's utterly and completely useless. Its predictive value has never and will never be proven in any kind of scientific context in which the astrologers are blinded from meeting their clients (and thus cold-reading them) and prevented from making generalized predictions that would apply to anyone. Another aspect of what I call TM elitism is that long-term TMers tend to believe pretty much *what they were told to believe* by Maharishi, and seem incapable of challenging or questioning it. We will have to agree to differ about astrology. That's fine with me. There's far more to it than intuition. I don't think so. As I explained to Sal, the readings I had were not vague generalities. They were precise and accurate, and they very much related to me as a specific individual. You must have either seen some bad astrologers or have been so lacking in self-insight that you didn't recognize yourself in what they told you. Either that, or you are like all of those college students in the famous experiment who were all given the exact same horoscope to read and told that it was done for them personally. When the real nature of the experiment was revealed to them, over half refused to believe that it was true. Even when they compared the readings they'd been given line for line and found them identical, a few refused to believe it and thought that someone had switched them to play a trick on them. I think that it's more likely that you bought into generalities and at this point you don't want to even admit the possibility that they weren't generalities. But I have no interest in arguing with you...believe what you want. By the way, that lacking in self-insight was another elitist slam. One might suggest that YOU are so lacking in self-insight that you don't even realize when you're being an elitist. I remember hearing that MMY said that the only purpose of astrology was to predict the future. I have heard the same thing...that he said that. That is what I
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
demonstrating what charlatans the astrologers are, because they'd never agree to it. They depend (and in many cases their income depends) on being able to see their clients in real life or in a photo and thus do a cold reading on them, and on being able to get away with speaking in generalizations that would be true for *anyone*. There. I've replied, and I hope I haven't been too mean. Now we'll see whether any of the believers in astrology here are willing to do anything in response but call me names. :-) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why I kidded Sal to go ask him. :-D On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for dinner. :-) From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com He'sright about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... DavidTredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge pressure of... View on www.telegraph.co.uk Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
this unless you've studied it as long as I have is the same thing as saying You can't understand this unless you've been brainwashed as long as I have. People who use this tired old argument want skeptics to INVEST their time, energy, and money into learning about astrology in the hopes that they'll then be as INVESTED IN IT as they are. Well, it doesn't work -- back in the 60s I learned how to draw up Western astrology charts, and without the benefit of any of the programs you probably use. I used paper ephemeri and math. I read dozens of books, and because NONE of what I read turned out to have any basis in truth, I still came away a skeptic. So drop this tired old You have to study it to understand it routine, OK? It's bullshit, and *undermines* your arguments, not strengthens them. Here's what would convince me. A real, solid experiment with solid protocols. For example, for a dozen subjects, a dozen noted astrologers are given their birth data *and nothing else*. The astrologers never get to meet the subjects, are never even told what sex they are (it shouldn't matter if the stars run everything), and the subjects don't ask them any questions. Then the astrologers draw up charts and make three concrete predictions for each subject. By concrete I mean something that is not hazy or general in any way and thus open to interpretation. None of that crap that JR tried to pull once by predicting that something big will happen to Rick in the next few months. That's laughable...even carnival hucksters can do better than that. No, these predictions have to be specific, and VERIFIABLE. If you say that the person will get ill, you have to say exactly when, and what type of illness it is. If you tell someone that they will come into money, again you have to specify exactly when, but you also have to specify the source and and general amount. I come into money every month when I receive my paycheck, and a charlatan astrologer could (and probably would) interpret that as having been correct. Anyway, you get the picture. There will be judges, and they get to decide whether the astrologers' predictions are specific and verifiable enough. If they're not, they either have to drop out of the study or rework them until they meet the requirements. None of the predictions can be for a period longer than three months in the future, so that the study can actually be completed. The subjects are NEVER told what the predictions are. This is key, or they could mood-make them into coming true. Only the researchers and the astrologers ever know what was predicted. Then you just wait, and after three months you tally up the data. My bet is that fewer than 5% of the predictions would be verified as true. But I do this as an exercise in demonstrating how a skeptic like me would design such a study, and at the same time demonstrating what charlatans the astrologers are, because they'd never agree to it. They depend (and in many cases their income depends) on being able to see their clients in real life or in a photo and thus do a cold reading on them, and on being able to get away with speaking in generalizations that would be true for *anyone*. There. I've replied, and I hope I haven't been too mean. Now we'll see whether any of the believers in astrology here are willing to do anything in response but call me names. :-) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You just made yourself alaughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with thatstatement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves mypoint. Another beer? :-D On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBeeturquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Exactly. It's the fact that hebelieves in astrology that puts him in the samecamp as someone who believes that the moon is madeof green cheese. What *type* of astrology hebelieves in is irrelevant. From:Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife]FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent:Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM Subject:Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things getso screwed up? Ahem,the person in question is theBritish politician who advocatesastrology. BTW, I started readingabout this several days ago. Itsounds like he practices westernastrology though not vedic. That's why I kidded Sal togo ask him. :-D On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@...[FairfieldLife] wrote: Askingwhat kind of astrology aperson practices is likeasking someone whobelieves that the moonis made of green cheesewhat kind of knifeastronauts should use toslice themselves off achunk of moon to servefor
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
There. I've replied, and I hope I haven't been too mean. Now we'll see whether any of the believers in astrology here are willing to do anything in response but call me names. :-) Now it's my turn. You are an idiot. Not because you don't believe in astrology, but because you believe in fibbing. Nobody cares whether or not you believe in astrology or human levitation, or really, anything else. What concerns some of us is that you tried to convince everyone that you had witnessed Rama rise up slowly off of a sofa at Denny's in downtown L.A., in front of 200 drug-crazed hippies after a night of partying in the desert out at the Anzo-Borrego State Park. Everyone knows that you can't fit 200 hippies inside Denny's in downtown L.A., or at any other location - Denny's has a seating capacity for only 100 customers, max. Everyone already know that. There, I've replied to your outlandish claim. Now go figure. I've seen someone levitate. Many times. In many settings, from the Los Angeles Convention Center to the Anza-Borrego Desert to a Denny's restaurant in the wee hours of the night. - TurquoiseB
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) As for the sceptics, I am reminded of the remark attributed to Isaac Newton when the astronomer Halley tweaked him about his belief in astrology. Sir, I have studied it; you have not. And as I tried unsuccessfully to convey to Bhairitu (and before him JR and Judy and several others), that's just elitism and cult thinking talking. IMO, the claim that You can't understand this unless you've studied it as long as I have is the same thing as saying You can't understand this unless you've been brainwashed as long as I have. People who use this tired old argument want skeptics to INVEST their time, energy, and money into learning about astrology in the hopes that they'll then be as INVESTED IN IT as they are. Well, it doesn't work -- back in the 60s I learned how to draw up Western astrology charts, and without the benefit of any of the programs you probably use. I used paper ephemeri and math. I read dozens of books, and because NONE of what I read turned out to have any basis in truth, I still came away a skeptic. So drop this tired old You have to study it to understand it routine, OK? It's bullshit, and *undermines* your arguments, not strengthens them. Here's what would convince me. A real, solid experiment with solid protocols. For example, for a dozen subjects, a dozen noted astrologers are given their birth data *and nothing else*. The astrologers never get to meet the subjects, are never even told what sex they are (it shouldn't matter if the stars run everything), and the subjects don't ask them any questions. Then the astrologers draw up charts and make three concrete predictions for each subject. By concrete I mean something that is not hazy or general in any way and thus open to interpretation. None of that crap that JR tried to pull once by predicting that something big will happen to Rick in the next few months. That's laughable...even carnival hucksters can do better than that. No, these predictions have to be specific, and VERIFIABLE. If you say that the person will get ill, you have to say exactly when, and what type of illness it is. If you tell someone that they will come into money, again you have to specify exactly when, but you also have to specify the source and and general amount. I come into money every month when I receive my paycheck, and a charlatan astrologer could (and probably would) interpret that as having been correct. Anyway, you get the picture. There will be judges, and they get to decide whether the astrologers' predictions are specific and verifiable enough. If they're not, they either have to drop out of the study or rework them until they meet the requirements. None of the predictions can be for a period longer than three months in the future, so that the study can actually be completed. The subjects are NEVER told what the predictions are. This is key, or they could mood-make them into coming true. Only the researchers and the astrologers ever know what was predicted. Then you just wait, and after three months you tally up the data. My bet is that fewer than 5% of the predictions would be verified as true. But I do this as an exercise in demonstrating how a skeptic like me would design such a study, and at the same time demonstrating what charlatans the astrologers are, because they'd never agree to it. They depend (and in many cases their income depends) on being able to see their clients in real life or in a photo and thus do a cold reading on them, and on being able to get away with speaking in generalizations that would be true for *anyone*. There. I've replied, and I hope I haven't been too mean. Now we'll see whether any of the believers in astrology here are willing to do anything in response but call me names. :-) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) As for the sceptics, I am reminded of the remark attributed to Isaac Newton when the astronomer Halley tweaked him about his belief in astrology. Sir, I have studied it; you have not. And as I tried unsuccessfully to convey to Bhairitu (and before him JR and Judy and several others), that's just elitism and cult thinking talking. IMO, the claim that You can't understand this unless you've studied it as long as I have is the same thing as saying You can't understand this unless you've been brainwashed as long as I have. People who use this tired old argument want skeptics to INVEST their time, energy, and money into learning about astrology in the hopes that they'll then be as INVESTED IN IT as they are. Well, it doesn't work -- back in the 60s I learned how to draw up Western astrology charts, and without the benefit of any of the programs you probably use. I used paper ephemeri and math. I read dozens of books, and because NONE of what I read turned out to have any basis in truth, I still came away a skeptic. So drop this tired old You have to study it to understand it routine, OK? It's bullshit, and *undermines* your arguments, not strengthens them. Here's what would convince me. A real, solid experiment with solid protocols. For example, for a dozen subjects, a dozen noted astrologers are given their birth data *and nothing else*. The astrologers never get to meet the subjects, are never even told what sex they are (it shouldn't matter if the stars run everything), and the subjects don't ask them any questions. Then the astrologers draw up charts and make three concrete predictions for each subject. By concrete I mean something that is not hazy or general in any way and thus open to interpretation. None of that crap that JR tried to pull once by predicting that something big will happen to Rick in the next few months. That's laughable...even carnival hucksters can do better than that. No, these predictions have to be specific, and VERIFIABLE. If you say that the person will get ill, you have to say exactly when, and what type of illness it is. If you tell someone that they will come into money, again you have to specify exactly when, but you also have to specify the source and and general amount. I come into money every month when I receive my paycheck, and a charlatan astrologer could (and probably would) interpret that as having been correct. Anyway, you get the picture. There will be judges, and they get to decide whether the astrologers' predictions are specific and verifiable enough. If they're not, they either have to drop out of the study or rework them until they meet the requirements. None of the predictions can be for a period longer than three months in the future, so that the study can actually be completed. The subjects are NEVER told what the predictions are. This is key, or they could mood-make them into coming true. Only the researchers and the astrologers ever know what was predicted. Then you just wait, and after three months you tally up the data. My bet is that fewer than 5% of the predictions would be verified as true. But I do this as an exercise in demonstrating how a skeptic like me would design such a study, and at the same time demonstrating what charlatans the astrologers are, because they'd never agree to it. They depend (and in many cases their income depends) on being able to see their clients in real life or in a photo and thus do a cold reading on them, and on being able to get away with speaking in generalizations that would be true for *anyone*. There. I've replied, and I hope I haven't been too mean. Now we'll see whether any of the believers in astrology here are willing to do anything in response but call me names. :-) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You just made yourself alaughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with thatstatement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves mypoint. Another beer? :-D On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBeeturquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Exactly. It's the fact that hebelieves in astrology that puts him in the samecamp as someone who believes that the moon is madeof green cheese. What *type* of astrology hebelieves in is irrelevant. From:Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife]FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent:Friday
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
I think you and Barry have too much time on your hands, from what I skimmed below. TIme to write endlessly on the internet, (but not take a few minutes to meet a friend for coffee) I guess those flesh and blood interactions can be a bitch. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. Well I have. From Marshy's favourite jyotishee apparently. It was rubbish. But then you might say he just wasn't a very competent astrologer. The funny thing was everyone on the course I was attending thought he was great until I started pointing out the obvious shortcomings in what he was telling people. Most of them were being told the same thing and it was all so India-centric, with advice to get jobs as ticket-wallas and such like, that it was embarrassing. But not to the devotees until I opened my mouth, they thought it was great. I wonder what you would have said about his skills? I only went along for the reading because my girlfriend wanted a compatibility chart done. He said we were perfect except for occasional disagreements (wow) and should take care communicating. He told her she would take a journey up a great river and write a book about science. She didn't on both counts. He told me I'd be very wealthy in middle age. Not so far but I don't give much of a toss anyway. I'll let you know if it comes to pass. The rest of it was feeble character analysis such as you would get in any 5 cent gipsy tent at the local fair You are kind but like to say what you think etc... See Rorshach for further details. The only time astrology interests me is when they make claims about these periods in life that we supposedly go through. Things people in the TMO say like I'm in gurmuntha and so can't be expected to be successful just now this is all checkable and I was disappointed that it didn't match up. It seems more likely that we just cherry pick things from life to say that we agree with the planetary diagnosis and if it doesn't work we can blame our karma. I've heard it all. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) So his predictions of the future were good but you don't think it gets high marks generally? I don't get it, it either is or it isn't good at something. How can it be good for you but not me? I'll tell you, I think it depends rather more on the intuition of the astrologer than it does on any planetary influence - not that there is any - It's just pot luck if something ties up. And it depends what it is, something that's quite likely to happen like getting a new job if you've been looking for one. Out of the blue stuff is impossible to predict but it doesn't stop the TMO claiming that it can. I remember they used to publish a list of predictions for the year but abandoned it after 9/11. I used to keep them and check them at the end of the year, I once asked a higher-up how come none of it ever came true and he claimed that our meditation affected world events through the unified field so it was bound to be inaccurate. I further pondered why they didn't just include the revised events as part of the original prediction but that met with a stony look. This is my point, if you accept it you tend not to ask too much of it - certainly not how it might work. If you want to get to the bottom of it you find it all unravels pretty quickly under scrutiny and that's before we get to the actual behaviour of bodies in the solar system and how our knowledge of what they are has changed over the years. I also remember the TMO changed the birthchart requirements for a while so you had to include both your parents and grandparents birth details before they'd attempt a reading because it was too inaccurate otherwise. What sort of sussed, time-tested science has to do things like this? Why are there so many different types that each get a poo-pooing from each other? It was sstill inaccurate BTW and they went back to the old method because there's more money in it. Far from being closed minded I know how to draw up
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. Well I have. From Marshy's favourite jyotishee apparently. It was rubbish. But then you might say he just wasn't a very competent astrologer. The funny thing was everyone on the course I was attending thought he was great until I started pointing out the obvious shortcomings in what he was telling people. Most of them were being told the same thing and it was all so India-centric, with advice to get jobs as ticket-wallas and such like, that it was embarrassing. But not to the devotees until I opened my mouth, they thought it was great. I wonder what you would have said about his skills? I only went along for the reading because my girlfriend wanted a compatibility chart done. He said we were perfect except for occasional disagreements (wow) and should take care communicating. He told her she would take a journey up a great river and write a book about science. She didn't on both counts. He told me I'd be very wealthy in middle age. Not so far but I don't give much of a toss anyway. I'll let you know if it comes to pass. The rest of it was feeble character analysis such as you would get in any 5 cent gipsy tent at the local fair You are kind but like to say what you think etc... See Rorshach for further details. The only time astrology interests me is when they make claims about these periods in life that we supposedly go through. Things people in the TMO say like I'm in gurmuntha and so can't be expected to be successful just now this is all checkable and I was disappointed that it didn't match up. It seems more likely that we just cherry pick things from life to say that we agree with the planetary diagnosis and if it doesn't work we can blame our karma. I've heard it all. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) So his predictions of the future were good but you don't think it gets high marks generally? I don't get it, it either is or it isn't good at something. How can it be good for you but not me? I'll tell you, I think it depends rather more on the intuition of the astrologer than it does on any planetary influence - not that there is any - It's just pot luck if something ties up. And it depends what it is, something that's quite likely to happen like getting a new job if you've been looking for one. Out of the blue stuff is impossible to predict but it doesn't stop the TMO claiming that it can. I remember they used to publish a list of predictions for the year but abandoned it after 9/11. I used to keep them and check them at the end of the year, I once asked a higher-up how come none of it ever came true and he claimed that our meditation affected world events through the unified field so it was bound to be inaccurate. I further pondered why they didn't just include the revised events as part of the original prediction but that met with a stony look. This is my point, if you accept it you tend not to ask too much of it - certainly not how it might work. If you want to get to the bottom of it you find it all unravels pretty quickly under scrutiny and that's before we get to the actual behaviour of bodies in the solar system and how our knowledge of what they are has changed over the years. I also remember the TMO changed the birthchart requirements for a while so you had to include both your parents and grandparents birth details before they'd attempt a reading because it was too inaccurate otherwise. What sort of sussed, time-tested science has to do things like this? Why are there so many different types that each get a poo-pooing from each other? It was sstill inaccurate BTW and they went back to the old method because there's more money in it. Far from being closed minded I know how to draw up birthcharts - or I used to anyway, probably still got the book somewhere - but I dismissed it almost immediately as it's much more about the intuition of the person reading the chart than it is about planets and stuff. Marshy always said that a computer would make the best astrologer as there would be no misinterpretation of
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
My experience with astrology is it always seems to work for people post-hoc, but not ex-ante, that when astrologers have to work in a double-blind or even a blind situation, they cannot determine anything. In astrological reading settings, people reveal a tremendous amount of detail about themselves to the astrologer which then gets filtered back to them, or riffed upon. At MIU I recall a course where people were asked to interpret charts blind, and nobody could could come to any conclusion, it was very frustrating for them. Here is an article discussing the 1985 double-blind test of astrology that appeared in Nature. I might still have a copy of this article somewhere, but as I recall astrologers did not do better than chance. It should be noted that this was a test of the Western version of astrology, but as the basic principles are the same, one would expect the same results with Jyotish. As Jyotish seems more event driven, it might be easier to test scientifically. Astrology Still Fails http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2009/08/shawn-carlson-astrology-test-nature-suitbert-ertel-reappraisal.html http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2009/08/shawn-carlson-astrology-test-nature-suitbert-ertel-reappraisal.html Astrology Still Fails http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2009/08/shawn-carlson-astrology-test-nature-suitbert-ertel-reappraisal.html I’ve written before about Shawn Carlson’s “A Double-blind Test of Astrology”, published in the journal Nature, in 1985. To recap, 116 people completed Californ... View on skeptico.blogs.com http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2009/08/shawn-carlson-astrology-test-nature-suitbert-ertel-reappraisal.html Preview by Yahoo ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I'll step aside and wait for Sal to answer this one - anything I say would just sound mean. I dunno MJ, I'm starting to get convinced about all this. When I look at the trolls on here it makes me think there must be something to astrology. Why would you post on a forum if you've got nothing to say except slagging off the other posters unless you were being driven to it by some sort of existential compulsion? Why waste your life in such a pointless way? Joy in spreading misery? It don't sound very spiritual. So maybe the charts of some of FFL's denizens should be checked for planetary conjunctions that result in excessive negativity that gets used as a way of beefing up the ego of the sufferer. I'm sure we'll all be happy to chip in for a rectifying yagya. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 7:55 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) As for the sceptics, I am reminded of the remark attributed to Isaac Newton when the astronomer Halley tweaked him about his belief in astrology. Sir, I have studied it; you have not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
That's interesting. I have never consulted one of the MMY-approved jyotishees, and from what I have heard they are not that great. I'm sorry that they didn't do a good job for you. I can assure you that the readings I am referring to did not fit your description of feeble character analysis. They were detailed and accurate and very useful. I recommend Chakrapani in LA as one of them. At one point he said something to me that was dead-on accurate and I said I didn't think anyone else knew that about me! He just laughed. I wonder if the MMY jyotishees are kind of mass produced, so to speak, not people for whom the study of astrology is a lifetime's calling. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. Well I have. From Marshy's favourite jyotishee apparently. It was rubbish. But then you might say he just wasn't a very competent astrologer. The funny thing was everyone on the course I was attending thought he was great until I started pointing out the obvious shortcomings in what he was telling people. Most of them were being told the same thing and it was all so India-centric, with advice to get jobs as ticket-wallas and such like, that it was embarrassing. But not to the devotees until I opened my mouth, they thought it was great. I wonder what you would have said about his skills? I only went along for the reading because my girlfriend wanted a compatibility chart done. He said we were perfect except for occasional disagreements (wow) and should take care communicating. He told her she would take a journey up a great river and write a book about science. She didn't on both counts. He told me I'd be very wealthy in middle age. Not so far but I don't give much of a toss anyway. I'll let you know if it comes to pass. The rest of it was feeble character analysis such as you would get in any 5 cent gipsy tent at the local fair You are kind but like to say what you think etc... See Rorshach for further details. The only time astrology interests me is when they make claims about these periods in life that we supposedly go through. Things people in the TMO say like I'm in gurmuntha and so can't be expected to be successful just now this is all checkable and I was disappointed that it didn't match up. It seems more likely that we just cherry pick things from life to say that we agree with the planetary diagnosis and if it doesn't work we can blame our karma. I've heard it all. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) So his predictions of the future were good but you don't think it gets high marks generally? I don't get it, it either is or it isn't good at something. How can it be good for you but not me? I'll tell you, I think it depends rather more on the intuition of the astrologer than it does on any planetary influence - not that there is any - It's just pot luck if something ties up. And it depends what it is, something that's quite likely to happen like getting a new job if you've been looking for one. Out of the blue stuff is impossible to predict but it doesn't stop the TMO claiming that it can. I remember they used to publish a list of predictions for the year but abandoned it after 9/11. I used to keep them and check them at the end of the year, I once asked a higher-up how come none of it ever came true and he claimed that our meditation affected world events through the unified field so it was bound to be inaccurate. I further pondered why they didn't just include the revised events as part of the original prediction but that met with a stony look. This is my point, if you accept it you tend not to ask too much of it - certainly not how it might work. If you want to get to the bottom of it you find it all unravels pretty quickly under scrutiny and that's before we get to the actual behaviour of bodies in the solar system and how our knowledge of what they are has changed over the years. I also remember the TMO changed the birthchart requirements for a while so you had to include both your
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I'll step aside and wait for Sal to answer this one - anything I say would just sound mean. I dunno MJ, I'm starting to get convinced about all this. When I look at the trolls on here it makes me think there must be something to astrology. Why would you post on a forum if you've got nothing to say except slagging off the other posters unless you were being driven to it by some sort of existential compulsion? Why waste your life in such a pointless way? Joy in spreading misery? It don't sound very spiritual. So maybe the charts of some of FFL's denizens should be checked for planetary conjunctions that result in excessive negativity that gets used as a way of beefing up the ego of the sufferer. I'm sure we'll all be happy to chip in for a rectifying yagya. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 7:55 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) As for the sceptics, I am reminded of the remark attributed to Isaac Newton when the astronomer Halley tweaked him about his belief in astrology. Sir, I have studied it; you have not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why I kidded Sal to go ask him. :-D On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for dinner. :-) From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com He'sright about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Sal, just curious, does you employer know just how much time you spend on the internet during work hours? I know it's the weekend, but, you are pretty much a round the clock the poster, most heavily during work hours, from what you, yourself have said. Oh, word to the wise. Just keep ignoring posters who bug you. On the other hand, maybe your job is so uninspiring, that anything is better than just twiddling your thumbs, or taking care of warranty issues. Keep up the good work. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I'll step aside and wait for Sal to answer this one - anything I say would just sound mean. I dunno MJ, I'm starting to get convinced about all this. When I look at the trolls on here it makes me think there must be something to astrology. Why would you post on a forum if you've got nothing to say except slagging off the other posters unless you were being driven to it by some sort of existential compulsion? Why waste your life in such a pointless way? Joy in spreading misery? It don't sound very spiritual. So maybe the charts of some of FFL's denizens should be checked for planetary conjunctions that result in excessive negativity that gets used as a way of beefing up the ego of the sufferer. I'm sure we'll all be happy to chip in for a rectifying yagya. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 7:55 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) As for the sceptics, I am reminded of the remark attributed to Isaac Newton when the astronomer Halley tweaked him about his belief in astrology. Sir, I have studied it; you have not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why I kidded Sal to go ask him. :-D On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for dinner. :-) From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com He'sright about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Ahh, but you forget the Hindoos always anthropomorphize everything including the planets. They believe the planets are pulsating awarenesses of some kind, just like the New Agers believe they are gods or archangels or some such. Thus they can have influence on us! The obvious thing to think of someone who learns a lot about themselves from their first chart is that they were very un-self aware to begin with. From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 7:57 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. Well I have. From Marshy's favourite jyotishee apparently. It was rubbish. But then you might say he just wasn't a very competent astrologer. The funny thing was everyone on the course I was attending thought he was great until I started pointing out the obvious shortcomings in what he was telling people. Most of them were being told the same thing and it was all so India-centric, with advice to get jobs as ticket-wallas and such like, that it was embarrassing. But not to the devotees until I opened my mouth, they thought it was great. I wonder what you would have said about his skills? I only went along for the reading because my girlfriend wanted a compatibility chart done. He said we were perfect except for occasional disagreements (wow) and should take care communicating. He told her she would take a journey up a great river and write a book about science. She didn't on both counts. He told me I'd be very wealthy in middle age. Not so far but I don't give much of a toss anyway. I'll let you know if it comes to pass. The rest of it was feeble character analysis such as you would get in any 5 cent gipsy tent at the local fair You are kind but like to say what you think etc... See Rorshach for further details. The only time astrology interests me is when they make claims about these periods in life that we supposedly go through. Things people in the TMO say like I'm in gurmuntha and so can't be expected to be successful just now this is all checkable and I was disappointed that it didn't match up. It seems more likely that we just cherry pick things from life to say that we agree with the planetary diagnosis and if it doesn't work we can blame our karma. I've heard it all. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) So his predictions of the future were good but you don't think it gets high marks generally? I don't get it, it either is or it isn't good at something. How can it be good for you but not me? I'll tell you, I think it depends rather more on the intuition of the astrologer than it does on any planetary influence - not that there is any - It's just pot luck if something ties up. And it depends what it is, something that's quite likely to happen like getting a new job if you've been looking for one. Out of the blue stuff is impossible to predict but it doesn't stop the TMO claiming that it can. I remember they used to publish a list of predictions for the year but abandoned it after 9/11. I used to keep them and check them at the end of the year, I once asked a higher-up how come none of it ever came true and he claimed that our meditation affected world events through the unified field so it was bound to be inaccurate. I further pondered why they didn't just include the revised events as part of the original prediction but that met with a stony look. This is my point, if you accept it you tend not to ask too much of it - certainly not how it might work. If you want to get to the bottom of it you find it all unravels pretty quickly under scrutiny and that's before we get to the actual behaviour of bodies in the solar system and how our knowledge of what they are has changed over the years. I also remember the TMO changed the birthchart requirements for a while so you had to include both your parents and grandparents birth details before they'd attempt a reading because it was too inaccurate otherwise. What sort of sussed, time-tested science has to do
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Hey, sorry you took offense. But, I'm afraid I still stand by it. Oh, those punches under the belt part. something I learned at the_peak? dude, the master is here in our midst. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : I think you and Barry have too much time on your hands, from what I skimmed below. TIme to write endlessly on the internet, (but not take a few minutes to meet a friend for coffee) I guess those flesh and blood interactions can be a bitch. (-: This is such a stupid and inappropriate comment, as we say here, a punch under the belt, that it really angers me. You have nothing to do with it, why do you interfere? You just take a friendly interaction and abuse it for your own vicious goals. Is that what you learn at the_peak? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. Well I have. From Marshy's favourite jyotishee apparently. It was rubbish. But then you might say he just wasn't a very competent astrologer. The funny thing was everyone on the course I was attending thought he was great until I started pointing out the obvious shortcomings in what he was telling people. Most of them were being told the same thing and it was all so India-centric, with advice to get jobs as ticket-wallas and such like, that it was embarrassing. But not to the devotees until I opened my mouth, they thought it was great. I wonder what you would have said about his skills? I only went along for the reading because my girlfriend wanted a compatibility chart done. He said we were perfect except for occasional disagreements (wow) and should take care communicating. He told her she would take a journey up a great river and write a book about science. She didn't on both counts. He told me I'd be very wealthy in middle age. Not so far but I don't give much of a toss anyway. I'll let you know if it comes to pass. The rest of it was feeble character analysis such as you would get in any 5 cent gipsy tent at the local fair You are kind but like to say what you think etc... See Rorshach for further details. The only time astrology interests me is when they make claims about these periods in life that we supposedly go through. Things people in the TMO say like I'm in gurmuntha and so can't be expected to be successful just now this is all checkable and I was disappointed that it didn't match up. It seems more likely that we just cherry pick things from life to say that we agree with the planetary diagnosis and if it doesn't work we can blame our karma. I've heard it all. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) So his predictions of the future were good but you don't think it gets high marks generally? I don't get it, it either is or it isn't good at something. How can it be good for you but not me? I'll tell you, I think it depends rather more on the intuition of the astrologer than it does on any planetary influence - not that there is any - It's just pot luck if something ties up. And it depends what it is, something that's quite likely to happen like getting a new job if you've been looking for one. Out of the blue stuff is impossible to predict but it doesn't stop the TMO claiming that it can. I remember they used to publish a list of predictions for the year but abandoned it after 9/11. I used to keep them and check them at the end of the year, I once asked a higher-up how come none of it ever came true and he claimed that our meditation affected world events through the unified field so it was bound to be inaccurate. I further pondered why they didn't just include the revised events as part of the original prediction but that met with a stony look. This is my point, if you accept it you tend not to ask too much of it - certainly not how it might work. If you want to get to the bottom of it you find it all unravels pretty quickly under scrutiny and that's before we get to the
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? [2 Attachments]
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : On 02/28/2015 06:19 AM, anartaxius@... mailto:anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: My experience with astrology is it always seems to work for people post-hoc, but not ex-ante, that when astrologers have to work in a double-blind or even a blind situation, they cannot determine anything. In astrological reading settings, people reveal a tremendous amount of detail about themselves to the astrologer which then gets filtered back to them, or riffed upon. At MIU I recall a course where people were asked to interpret charts blind, and nobody could could come to any conclusion, it was very frustrating for them. Here is an article discussing the 1985 double-blind test of astrology that appeared in Nature. I might still have a copy of this article somewhere, but as I recall astrologers did not do better than chance. It should be noted that this was a test of the Western version of astrology, but as the basic principles are the same, one would expect the same results with Jyotish. As Jyotish seems more event driven, it might be easier to test scientifically. Which basic principles are the same? The principle that the planets and stars (incl. the Sun), their position in the sky, their position at certain times on the horizon have certain specific influences on our life, which if known will tell us more about ourselves and/or predict events in our future which we might either embrace or avoid: 'The knowledge of Maharishi Jyotish and Maharishi Yagya programs is that supreme knowledge that locates the whole panorama of life through one single point of a wide-angle lens—the time and place of birth of the individual is sufficient for a detailed calculation of the spread of the events of his whole life. And whenever during the lifetime negative influences are observed in the horoscope, calculations are made in advance to prescribe Maharishi Yagya performances to generate positive influences to counterbalance the negative influences of the past.' The part that makes this untenable is the mechanism by which this is supposed to work does not appear to be known, all that is ever said is there is a correlation with these positions and potential effects. Also how the descriptions of those influences were discovered or determined never seems to be specified either. It seems to me astrological readings are often more like sessions with a psychiatrist, almost as if people have a need to talk things out about their life, what kind of decisions they need to make because they are unable to do so by themselves. If things like TM worked the way they were advertised, one would be in accord with all the laws of nature and none of this hooey would be needed to fix anything. A system that works would show how such a system could be constructed from scratch. In other words the astrologer would go outside and start observing the sky and tabulating what is observed, naming stars and planets and what else, working out how to connect the lines to create constellations, and correlating that with human beings. Seems like a lot of work compared to using canned software programs that make use of data provided by real scientists (astronomers). Jyotish seems slightly more rational (compared to total insanity) in that it takes care of the precession of the equinox in its calculations, and slightly less rational in that it does not take into account new discoveries in the sky such as Neptune, Uranus, Pluto, Ceres, Makemake, Haumea, and Eris. Let's say you were on Kepler 62f, which is about 1,200 light years from Earth. Kepler 62 is a sun-like star and Kepler 62f is thought to have water and be in the habitable zone. How would you go about making an astrology system for a colony on that planet? None of the constellations and positions of stars we see here would be the same. So what is the first step, starting from scratch? Attached are two views of the sky from Kepler 62f one looking East-SouthEast, and one looking West-Northwest. There are a few familiar stars. The Sun is invisible because it it too faint and far away to be seen. The West-Northwest view has the home star (Kepler 62) and four planets above the horizon. Go to it. Also when considering something like this, how would you go about determining if it actually works, since the system makes predictions, they can be tested, so how would you go about designing a test that does not allow you to fool yourself as to its efficacy? Astrology Still Fails Astrology Still Fails I’ve written before about Shawn Carlson’s “A Double-blind Test of Astrology”, published in the journal Nature, in 1985. To recap, 116 people completed Californ... View on skeptico.blogs.com Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
this falls into the silver colloidal category. Personal experiences that upset Sals view of how things should be, tend to throw him for a loop. Instead of considering that his point of view may be a little off, what does he do? Why he shoots the messenger. That's what he does. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : That's interesting. I have never consulted one of the MMY-approved jyotishees, and from what I have heard they are not that great. I'm sorry that they didn't do a good job for you. I can assure you that the readings I am referring to did not fit your description of feeble character analysis. They were detailed and accurate and very useful. I recommend Chakrapani in LA as one of them. At one point he said something to me that was dead-on accurate and I said I didn't think anyone else knew that about me! He just laughed. I wonder if the MMY jyotishees are kind of mass produced, so to speak, not people for whom the study of astrology is a lifetime's calling. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. Well I have. From Marshy's favourite jyotishee apparently. It was rubbish. But then you might say he just wasn't a very competent astrologer. The funny thing was everyone on the course I was attending thought he was great until I started pointing out the obvious shortcomings in what he was telling people. Most of them were being told the same thing and it was all so India-centric, with advice to get jobs as ticket-wallas and such like, that it was embarrassing. But not to the devotees until I opened my mouth, they thought it was great. I wonder what you would have said about his skills? I only went along for the reading because my girlfriend wanted a compatibility chart done. He said we were perfect except for occasional disagreements (wow) and should take care communicating. He told her she would take a journey up a great river and write a book about science. She didn't on both counts. He told me I'd be very wealthy in middle age. Not so far but I don't give much of a toss anyway. I'll let you know if it comes to pass. The rest of it was feeble character analysis such as you would get in any 5 cent gipsy tent at the local fair You are kind but like to say what you think etc... See Rorshach for further details. The only time astrology interests me is when they make claims about these periods in life that we supposedly go through. Things people in the TMO say like I'm in gurmuntha and so can't be expected to be successful just now this is all checkable and I was disappointed that it didn't match up. It seems more likely that we just cherry pick things from life to say that we agree with the planetary diagnosis and if it doesn't work we can blame our karma. I've heard it all. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) So his predictions of the future were good but you don't think it gets high marks generally? I don't get it, it either is or it isn't good at something. How can it be good for you but not me? I'll tell you, I think it depends rather more on the intuition of the astrologer than it does on any planetary influence - not that there is any - It's just pot luck if something ties up. And it depends what it is, something that's quite likely to happen like getting a new job if you've been looking for one. Out of the blue stuff is impossible to predict but it doesn't stop the TMO claiming that it can. I remember they used to publish a list of predictions for the year but abandoned it after 9/11. I used to keep them and check them at the end of the year, I once asked a higher-up how come none of it ever came true and he claimed that our meditation affected world events through the unified field so it was bound to be inaccurate. I further pondered why they didn't just include the revised events as part of the original prediction but that met with a stony look. This is my point, if you accept it you tend not to ask too much of it - certainly not how it
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
On 02/28/2015 01:25 PM, anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: [Attachment(s) #TopText from anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] included below] ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : On 02/28/2015 06:19 AM, anartaxius@... mailto:anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: My experience with astrology is it always seems to work for people post-hoc, but not ex-ante, that when astrologers have to work in a double-blind or even a blind situation, they cannot determine anything. In astrological reading settings, people reveal a tremendous amount of detail about themselves to the astrologer which then gets filtered back to them, or riffed upon. At MIU I recall a course where people were asked to interpret charts blind, and nobody could could come to any conclusion, it was very frustrating for them. Here is an article discussing the 1985 double-blind test of astrology that appeared in Nature. I might still have a copy of this article somewhere, but as I recall astrologers did not do better than chance. It should be noted that this was a test of the Western version of astrology, but as the basic principles are the same, one would expect the same results with Jyotish. As Jyotish seems more event driven, it might be easier to test scientifically. *Which basic principles are the same?** * The principle that the planets and stars (incl. the Sun), their position in the sky, their position at certain times on the horizon have certain specific influences on our life, which if known will tell us more about ourselves and/or predict events in our future which we might either embrace or avoid: More specific than that but you do address one below. 'The knowledge of Maharishi Jyotish and Maharishi Yagya programs is that supreme knowledge that locates the whole panorama of life through one single point of a wide-angle lens—the time and place of birth of the individual is sufficient for a detailed calculation of the spread of the events of his whole life. And whenever during the lifetime negative influences are observed in the horoscope, calculations are made in advance to prescribe Maharishi Yagya performances to generate positive influences to counterbalance the negative influences of the past.' For the record I don't know anything about Maharishi Jyotish. My background is from other schools and teachers of Indian astrology. It may not deviate a lot from those but there are different schools of Jyotish. Some will use the 6,8,12 houses to determine malefic planets and others the upachaya houses for malefics. Rahu and Ketu unless exalted in a chart and in a malefic house may often produce positive instead of negative results. But for many people they bring negativity during their planetary periods and transits. The part that makes this untenable is the mechanism by which this is supposed to work does not appear to be known, all that is ever said is there is a correlation with these positions and potential effects. Also how the descriptions of those influences were discovered or determined never seems to be specified either. Many jyotishis think jyotish astrology evolved from keeping track of the effects of the sun and moon which definitely effect many things on earth beyond the tides and weather. This was import as to understand when to plan for planting of crops and when to predict drought and famine. For people, especially those who were not rich and didn't have access to astrologers, this was kept track via the Panchang. It deals with the position of the Sun and Moon even relative to the individual and didn't need an astrologer to track. It is used to find auspicious times for doing something and inauspicious times to avoid doing something. It seems to me astrological readings are often more like sessions with a psychiatrist, almost as if people have a need to talk things out about their life, what kind of decisions they need to make because they are unable to do so by themselves. If things like TM worked the way they were advertised, one would be in accord with all the laws of nature and none of this hooey would be needed to fix anything. When I did readings most people would just listen. It wasn't like a psych session. They might ask questions like will I get married or will I find a good job. The planetary periods can act as a weather report to show when the best times for these might be. Western or tropical astrology tends however to be more like a psychological analysis of the personality. They may use solar returns and transits for predicting events. But I've never understood the penchant for adding newly discovered planets or even asteroids and comets other than the hope that it might make their tropical
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : Did you look at the article I sent you a link to? There was a reason I posted it. In the comments a scientist friend who I hang out with at the local Starbucks weighs in. And we often debate the subject. I read it and was puzzled about why you posted it but didn't have time to query it. It concludes that people who understand what the term astrology actually means think that it's very unscientific and they are right, but it's what I think so I don't know what the point was. It's good that they know what scientific means too - if that is indeed the case. I'm sure a lot of people think that because astrology is technical and precise in its measurements that must mean that it's outcomes are reliable and accurate and due to some sort of planetary influence. A proper scientific study would check every assumption from top to bottom and compare it with currently known paradigms about cosmology and psychology etc. But none of these would be worth the effort unless you are sure there is a signal-to-noise ratio worth investigating. Basically, can it tell us useful things we don't already know? Knowledge about ourselves and our lives that can't be gained in any other way. If it can then it's worth studying. If it can't then what is the point of it? On 02/28/2015 05:32 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... mailto:mjackson74@... wrote : I'll step aside and wait for Sal to answer this one - anything I say would just sound mean. I dunno MJ, I'm starting to get convinced about all this. When I look at the trolls on here it makes me think there must be something to astrology. Why would you post on a forum if you've got nothing to say except slagging off the other posters unless you were being driven to it by some sort of existential compulsion? Why waste your life in such a pointless way? Joy in spreading misery? It don't sound very spiritual. So maybe the charts of some of FFL's denizens should be checked for planetary conjunctions that result in excessive negativity that gets used as a way of beefing up the ego of the sufferer. I'm sure we'll all be happy to chip in for a rectifying yagya. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 7:55 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) As for the sceptics, I am reminded of the remark attributed to Isaac Newton when the astronomer Halley tweaked him about his belief in astrology. Sir, I have studied it; you have not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... mailto:mjackson74@... wrote : And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I thought I'd made myself clear. You did not make yourself clear. You failed to explain how 200 drug-crazed hippies got into a State Park in the middle of the night, when everyone knows that state parks are closed to tourists at 6:00 PM and there's only parking space for a dozen cars at a time. You also failed to make clear exactly how you got back to Denny's without getting a DUI after staying up all night, drinking and carousing and dancing around an illegal bon fire. You could have at least cleaned up your camp site before you left. Everyone know there are only two public latrines at the park. Gawd! I've seen someone levitate. Many times. In many settings, from the Los Angeles Convention Center to the Anza-Borrego Desert to a Denny's restaurant in the wee hours of the night. - TurquoiseB In my well-considered opinion, I class anyone who believes in astrology in the same category as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *variety* of astrology they believe in is therefore irrelevant. What they think of me is also irrelevant. Knowing shit about astrology is the most irrelevant of all. Look, I get it. You believe in this stuff and you've devoted time and energy to study it, and thus you are more than a little attached to believing that you didn't waste your time. I think you did, and I'm not willing to waste mine. We're at an impasse. You will never convince me otherwise, except by producing a study conducted with near-perfect protocols and study design that proves otherwise, so strongly that *any* scientist would believe it. We (non-believers in astrology) have said this on this forum many times, inviting the believers in astrology here to perform a mini-verison of such a study and predict some concrete, non-falsifiable event in the future that can be easily verified as either having happened in the predicted (and short term) timeline, or disproved. Not one of you has ever done so. It is my contention that you have not done so because you can't. So the bottom line is that I think it's just FINE for you to believe in astrology, even though I think it's a crock of shit. You can't ever change my mind about this *EXCEPT* by producing the kind of definitive, scientific study I ask for. There it stands. Put up or shut up. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why I kidded Sal to go ask him. :-D On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for dinner. :-) From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com He'sright about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
So, you took up a bus up to Iowa to join a religious cult; work in the kitchen as a bus-boy for free; lived in a pod for two years; got down on your hands and knees twice a day to pray to the Hindu gods; and went inside a golden dome for hours to try and fly; but we are a bunch of blind men commenting on an elephant. Go figure. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : The discussion here is hilarious as we have a bunch of blind men commenting on the elephant called astrology. :-D That's like saying we all have to get ebola to know its a bad thing. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? Yes, there are many bad astrologers. I read an article a couple years about by an astrologer who asserted that many beginning astrologers are sometimes better at interpretations than experienced astrologers. Why? Because astrologer because tangled up in the rules.. Beginners tend to use their intuition as they don't know the rules yet. But doing astrology mechanically by the rules would be as bad as writing a piece of music based entirely on the rules of music theory and composition. Those rules are tools and meant to help you out of a bind when writing a tune. Likewise astrology is a form of divination like palmistry. We don't know how it works but it does work in the hands of someone with intuition and the ability to divine meaning out of abstraction. In our computer age it is now possible to examine recurring patterns that took place over centuries. One recurring pattern that is being studied shows an 80 year recurring cycle that expresses itself through our global politics. Think what was taking place 80 years ago and compare it with now. This cycle has been shown to go back about 900 years. Predictive astrology is a primitive method of mapping these cycles. In general it is a weather report that provides the propensity for events happening. I know Chakrapani and he's also looked at my horoscope in one of his group sessions. Blurted out that I should have been a doctor because of the presence of Jupiter in my first house. Interesting because I have no problem understanding medical and biochemical principles but if I had chosen that field I would have gone the research rather than clinical route. But I have a strong third house ruled by Jupiter which drove me into the arts. I even regard computer programming as an artform and not a science. The discussion here is hilarious as we have a bunch of blind men commenting on the elephant called astrology. :-D On 02/28/2015 05:54 AM, feste37 wrote: That's interesting. I have never consulted one of the MMY-approved jyotishees, and from what I have heard they are not that great. I'm sorry that they didn't do a good job for you. I can assure you that the readings I am referring to did not fit your description of feeble character analysis. They were detailed and accurate and very useful. I recommend Chakrapani in LA as one of them. At one point he said something to me that was dead-on accurate and I said I didn't think anyone else knew that about me! He just laughed. I wonder if the MMY jyotishees are kind of mass produced, so to speak, not people for whom the study of astrology is a lifetime's calling. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. Well I have. From Marshy's favourite jyotishee apparently. It was rubbish. But then you might say he just wasn't a very competent astrologer. The funny thing was everyone on the course I was attending thought he was great until I started pointing out the obvious shortcomings in what he was telling people. Most of them were being told the same thing and it was all so India-centric, with advice to get jobs as ticket-wallas and such like, that it was embarrassing. But not to the devotees until I opened my mouth, they thought it was great. I wonder what you would have said about his skills? I only went along for the reading because my girlfriend wanted a compatibility chart done. He said we were perfect except for occasional disagreements (wow) and should take care communicating. He told her she would take a journey up a great
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
On 02/28/2015 06:19 AM, anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: My experience with astrology is it always seems to work for people post-hoc, but not ex-ante, that when astrologers have to work in a double-blind or even a blind situation, they cannot determine anything. In astrological reading settings, people reveal a tremendous amount of detail about themselves to the astrologer which then gets filtered back to them, or riffed upon. At MIU I recall a course where people were asked to interpret charts blind, and nobody could could come to any conclusion, it was very frustrating for them. Here is an article discussing the 1985 double-blind test of astrology that appeared in Nature. I might still have a copy of this article somewhere, but as I recall astrologers did not do better than chance. It should be noted that this was a test of the Western version of astrology, but as the basic principles are the same, one would expect the same results with Jyotish. As Jyotish seems more event driven, it might be easier to test scientifically. *Which basic principles are the same?** * Astrology Still Fails http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2009/08/shawn-carlson-astrology-test-nature-suitbert-ertel-reappraisal.html image http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2009/08/shawn-carlson-astrology-test-nature-suitbert-ertel-reappraisal.html Astrology Still Fails http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2009/08/shawn-carlson-astrology-test-nature-suitbert-ertel-reappraisal.html I’ve written before about Shawn Carlson’s “A Double-blind Test of Astrology”, published in the journal Nature, in 1985. To recap, 116 people completed Californ... View on skeptico.blogs.com http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2009/08/shawn-carlson-astrology-test-nature-suitbert-ertel-reappraisal.html Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
The discussion here is hilarious as we have a bunch of blind men commenting on the elephant called astrology. :-D That's like saying we all have to get ebola to know its a bad thing. From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? Yes, there are many bad astrologers. I read an article a couple years about by an astrologer who asserted that many beginning astrologers are sometimes better at interpretations than experienced astrologers. Why? Because astrologer because tangled up in the rules.. Beginners tend to use their intuition as they don't know the rules yet. But doing astrology mechanically by the rules would be as bad as writing a piece of music based entirely on the rules of music theory and composition. Those rules are tools and meant to help you out of a bind when writing a tune. Likewise astrology is a form of divination like palmistry. We don't know how it works but it does work in the hands of someone with intuition and the ability to divine meaning out of abstraction. In our computer age it is now possible to examine recurring patterns that took place over centuries. One recurring pattern that is being studied shows an 80 year recurring cycle that expresses itself through our global politics. Think what was taking place 80 years ago and compare it with now. This cycle has been shown to go back about 900 years. Predictive astrology is a primitive method of mapping these cycles. In general it is a weather report that provides the propensity for events happening. I know Chakrapani and he's also looked at my horoscope in one of his group sessions. Blurted out that I should have been a doctor because of the presence of Jupiter in my first house. Interesting because I have no problem understanding medical and biochemical principles but if I had chosen that field I would have gone the research rather than clinical route. But I have a strong third house ruled by Jupiter which drove me into the arts. I even regard computer programming as an artform and not a science. The discussion here is hilarious as we have a bunch of blind men commenting on the elephant called astrology. :-D On 02/28/2015 05:54 AM, feste37 wrote: That's interesting. I have never consulted one of the MMY-approved jyotishees, and from what I have heard they are not that great. I'm sorry that they didn't do a good job for you. I can assure you that the readings I am referring to did not fit your description of feeble character analysis. They were detailed and accurate and very useful. I recommend Chakrapani in LA as one of them. At one point he said something to me that was dead-on accurate and I said I didn't think anyone else knew that about me! He just laughed. I wonder if the MMY jyotishees are kind of mass produced, so to speak, not people for whom the study of astrology is a lifetime's calling. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. Well I have. From Marshy's favourite jyotishee apparently. It was rubbish. But then you might say he just wasn't a very competent astrologer. The funny thing was everyone on the course I was attending thought he was great until I started pointing out the obvious shortcomings in what he was telling people. Most of them were being told the same thing and it was all so India-centric, with advice to get jobs as ticket-wallas and such like, that it was embarrassing. But not to the devotees until I opened my mouth, they thought it was great. I wonder what you would have said about his skills? I only went along for the reading because my girlfriend wanted a compatibility chart done. He said we were perfect except for occasional disagreements (wow) and should take care communicating. He told her she would take a journey up a great river and write a book about science. She didn't on both counts. He told me I'd be very wealthy in middle age. Not so far but I don't give much of a toss anyway. I'll let you know if it comes to pass. The rest of it was feeble character analysis such as you would get in any 5 cent gipsy tent at the local fair You are kind but like to say what you think etc... See Rorshach for further details. The only time astrology interests me is when they make claims about these periods in life that we supposedly go through
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
@_@ What other funnies do you have for use today, Michael? On 02/28/2015 08:54 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: The discussion here is hilarious as we have a bunch of blind men commenting on the elephant called astrology. :-D That's like saying we all have to get ebola to know its a bad thing. *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, February 28, 2015 11:44 AM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? Yes, there are *many* bad astrologers. I read an article a couple years about by an astrologer who asserted that many beginning astrologers are sometimes better at interpretations than experienced astrologers. Why? Because astrologer because tangled up in the rules.. Beginners tend to use their intuition as they don't know the rules yet. But doing astrology mechanically by the rules would be as bad as writing a piece of music based entirely on the rules of music theory and composition. Those rules are tools and meant to help you out of a bind when writing a tune. Likewise astrology is a form of divination like palmistry. We don't know how it works but it does work in the hands of someone with intuition and the ability to divine meaning out of abstraction. In our computer age it is now possible to examine recurring patterns that took place over centuries. One recurring pattern that is being studied shows an 80 year recurring cycle that expresses itself through our global politics. Think what was taking place 80 years ago and compare it with now. This cycle has been shown to go back about 900 years. Predictive astrology is a primitive method of mapping these cycles. In general it is a weather report that provides the propensity for events happening. I know Chakrapani and he's also looked at my horoscope in one of his group sessions. Blurted out that I should have been a doctor because of the presence of Jupiter in my first house. Interesting because I have no problem understanding medical and biochemical principles but if I had chosen that field I would have gone the research rather than clinical route. But I have a strong third house ruled by Jupiter which drove me into the arts. I even regard computer programming as an artform and not a science. The discussion here is hilarious as we have a bunch of blind men commenting on the elephant called astrology. :-D On 02/28/2015 05:54 AM, feste37 wrote: That's interesting. I have never consulted one of the MMY-approved jyotishees, and from what I have heard they are not that great. I'm sorry that they didn't do a good job for you. I can assure you that the readings I am referring to did not fit your description of feeble character analysis. They were detailed and accurate and very useful. I recommend Chakrapani in LA as one of them. At one point he said something to me that was dead-on accurate and I said I didn't think anyone else knew that about me! He just laughed. I wonder if the MMY jyotishees are kind of mass produced, so to speak, not people for whom the study of astrology is a lifetime's calling. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. Well I have. From Marshy's favourite jyotishee apparently. It was rubbish. But then you might say he just wasn't a very competent astrologer. The funny thing was everyone on the course I was attending thought he was great until I started pointing out the obvious shortcomings in what he was telling people. Most of them were being told the same thing and it was all so India-centric, with advice to get jobs as ticket-wallas and such like, that it was embarrassing. But not to the devotees until I opened my mouth, they thought it was great. I wonder what you would have said about his skills? I only went along for the reading because my girlfriend wanted a compatibility chart done. He said we were perfect except for occasional disagreements (wow) and should take care communicating. He told her she would take a journey up a great river and write a book about science. She didn't on both counts. He told me I'd be very wealthy in middle age. Not so far but I don't give much of a toss anyway. I'll let you know if it comes to pass
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Scroll on down in the comments section and read those by Chris Benson. He's even one of your fellow countrymen. On 02/28/2015 09:34 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : Did you look at the article I sent you a link to? There was a reason I posted it. In the comments a scientist friend who I hang out with at the local Starbucks weighs in. And we often debate the subject. I read it and was puzzled about why you posted it but didn't have time to query it. It concludes that people who understand what the term astrology /actually means /think that it's very unscientific and they are right, but it's what I think so I don't know what the point was. It's good that they know what scientific means too - if that is indeed the case. I'm sure a lot of people think that because astrology is technical and precise in its measurements that must mean that it's outcomes are reliable and accurate and due to some sort of planetary influence. A proper scientific study would check every assumption from top to bottom and compare it with currently known paradigms about cosmology and psychology etc. But none of these would be worth the effort unless you are sure there is a signal-to-noise ratio worth investigating. Basically, can it tell us useful things we don't already know? Knowledge about ourselves and our lives that can't be gained in any other way. If it can then it's worth studying. If it can't then what is the point of it? On 02/28/2015 05:32 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... mailto:mjackson74@... wrote : I'll step aside and wait for Sal to answer this one - anything I say would just sound mean. I dunno MJ, I'm starting to get convinced about all this. When I look at the trolls on here it makes me think there must be something to astrology. Why would you post on a forum if you've got nothing to say except slagging off the other posters unless you were being driven to it by some sort of existential compulsion? Why waste your life in such a pointless way? Joy in spreading misery? It don't sound very spiritual. So maybe the charts of some of FFL's denizens should be checked for planetary conjunctions that result in excessive negativity that gets used as a way of beefing up the ego of the sufferer. I'm sure we'll all be happy to chip in for a rectifying yagya. *From:* feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, February 27, 2015 7:55 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) As for the sceptics, I am reminded of the remark attributed to Isaac Newton when the astronomer Halley tweaked him about his belief in astrology. Sir, I have studied it; you have not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... mailto:mjackson74@... wrote : And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. *From:* Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? *You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D *On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: */Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Did you look at the article I sent you a link to? There was a reason I posted it. In the comments a scientist friend who I hang out with at the local Starbucks weighs in. And we often debate the subject. On 02/28/2015 05:32 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I'll step aside and wait for Sal to answer this one - anything I say would just sound mean. I dunno MJ, I'm starting to get convinced about all this. When I look at the trolls on here it makes me think there must be something to astrology. Why would you post on a forum if you've got nothing to say except slagging off the other posters unless you were being driven to it by some sort of existential compulsion? Why waste your life in such a pointless way? Joy in spreading misery? It don't sound very spiritual. So maybe the charts of some of FFL's denizens should be checked for planetary conjunctions that result in excessive negativity that gets used as a way of beefing up the ego of the sufferer. I'm sure we'll all be happy to chip in for a rectifying yagya. *From:* feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, February 27, 2015 7:55 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) As for the sceptics, I am reminded of the remark attributed to Isaac Newton when the astronomer Halley tweaked him about his belief in astrology. Sir, I have studied it; you have not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. *From:* Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? *You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D *On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: */Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant. /* *From:* Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? *Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why /I kidded/ Sal to go ask him. :-D * On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: */Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for dinner. :-)/* *From:* Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com He'sright about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : I think you and Barry have too much time on your hands, from what I skimmed below. TIme to write endlessly on the internet, (but not take a few minutes to meet a friend for coffee) I guess those flesh and blood interactions can be a bitch. (-: This is such a stupid and inappropriate comment, as we say here, a punch under the belt, that it really angers me. You have nothing to do with it, why do you interfere? You just take a friendly interaction and abuse it for your own vicious goals. Is that what you learn at the_peak? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. Well I have. From Marshy's favourite jyotishee apparently. It was rubbish. But then you might say he just wasn't a very competent astrologer. The funny thing was everyone on the course I was attending thought he was great until I started pointing out the obvious shortcomings in what he was telling people. Most of them were being told the same thing and it was all so India-centric, with advice to get jobs as ticket-wallas and such like, that it was embarrassing. But not to the devotees until I opened my mouth, they thought it was great. I wonder what you would have said about his skills? I only went along for the reading because my girlfriend wanted a compatibility chart done. He said we were perfect except for occasional disagreements (wow) and should take care communicating. He told her she would take a journey up a great river and write a book about science. She didn't on both counts. He told me I'd be very wealthy in middle age. Not so far but I don't give much of a toss anyway. I'll let you know if it comes to pass. The rest of it was feeble character analysis such as you would get in any 5 cent gipsy tent at the local fair You are kind but like to say what you think etc... See Rorshach for further details. The only time astrology interests me is when they make claims about these periods in life that we supposedly go through. Things people in the TMO say like I'm in gurmuntha and so can't be expected to be successful just now this is all checkable and I was disappointed that it didn't match up. It seems more likely that we just cherry pick things from life to say that we agree with the planetary diagnosis and if it doesn't work we can blame our karma. I've heard it all. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) So his predictions of the future were good but you don't think it gets high marks generally? I don't get it, it either is or it isn't good at something. How can it be good for you but not me? I'll tell you, I think it depends rather more on the intuition of the astrologer than it does on any planetary influence - not that there is any - It's just pot luck if something ties up. And it depends what it is, something that's quite likely to happen like getting a new job if you've been looking for one. Out of the blue stuff is impossible to predict but it doesn't stop the TMO claiming that it can. I remember they used to publish a list of predictions for the year but abandoned it after 9/11. I used to keep them and check them at the end of the year, I once asked a higher-up how come none of it ever came true and he claimed that our meditation affected world events through the unified field so it was bound to be inaccurate. I further pondered why they didn't just include the revised events as part of the original prediction but that met with a stony look. This is my point, if you accept it you tend not to ask too much of it - certainly not how it might work. If you want to get to the bottom of it you find it all unravels pretty quickly under scrutiny and that's before we get to the actual behaviour of bodies in the solar system and how our knowledge of what they are has changed over the years. I also remember the TMO changed the birthchart requirements for a while so you had to include both your parents and grandparents birth details before they'd attempt a
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : I think you and Barry have too much time on your hands, from what I skimmed below. TIme to write endlessly on the internet, (but not take a few minutes to meet a friend for coffee) I guess those flesh and blood interactions can be a bitch. (-: This is such a stupid and inappropriate comment, as we say here, a punch under the belt, that it really angers me. You have nothing to do with it, why do you interfere? You just take a friendly interaction and abuse it for your own vicious goals. Is that what you learn at the_peak? So, this is what you guys do on Saturday night. Go figure. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. Well I have. From Marshy's favourite jyotishee apparently. It was rubbish. But then you might say he just wasn't a very competent astrologer. The funny thing was everyone on the course I was attending thought he was great until I started pointing out the obvious shortcomings in what he was telling people. Most of them were being told the same thing and it was all so India-centric, with advice to get jobs as ticket-wallas and such like, that it was embarrassing. But not to the devotees until I opened my mouth, they thought it was great. I wonder what you would have said about his skills? I only went along for the reading because my girlfriend wanted a compatibility chart done. He said we were perfect except for occasional disagreements (wow) and should take care communicating. He told her she would take a journey up a great river and write a book about science. She didn't on both counts. He told me I'd be very wealthy in middle age. Not so far but I don't give much of a toss anyway. I'll let you know if it comes to pass. The rest of it was feeble character analysis such as you would get in any 5 cent gipsy tent at the local fair You are kind but like to say what you think etc... See Rorshach for further details. The only time astrology interests me is when they make claims about these periods in life that we supposedly go through. Things people in the TMO say like I'm in gurmuntha and so can't be expected to be successful just now this is all checkable and I was disappointed that it didn't match up. It seems more likely that we just cherry pick things from life to say that we agree with the planetary diagnosis and if it doesn't work we can blame our karma. I've heard it all. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) So his predictions of the future were good but you don't think it gets high marks generally? I don't get it, it either is or it isn't good at something. How can it be good for you but not me? I'll tell you, I think it depends rather more on the intuition of the astrologer than it does on any planetary influence - not that there is any - It's just pot luck if something ties up. And it depends what it is, something that's quite likely to happen like getting a new job if you've been looking for one. Out of the blue stuff is impossible to predict but it doesn't stop the TMO claiming that it can. I remember they used to publish a list of predictions for the year but abandoned it after 9/11. I used to keep them and check them at the end of the year, I once asked a higher-up how come none of it ever came true and he claimed that our meditation affected world events through the unified field so it was bound to be inaccurate. I further pondered why they didn't just include the revised events as part of the original prediction but that met with a stony look. This is my point, if you accept it you tend not to ask too much of it - certainly not how it might work. If you want to get to the bottom of it you find it all unravels pretty quickly under scrutiny and that's before we get to the actual behaviour of bodies in the solar system and how our knowledge of what they are has changed over the years. I also remember the TMO changed the birthchart requirements for a while so you had to include both your
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
So, this is what you guys do on Saturday night. Go figure. You are just jealous because you can't even make it ouside of the US anymore, go figure. You are even afraid to go to India and visit any of the holy places you always dreamed of seeing.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Yes, there are *many* bad astrologers. I read an article a couple years about by an astrologer who asserted that many beginning astrologers are sometimes better at interpretations than experienced astrologers. Why? Because astrologer because tangled up in the rules.. Beginners tend to use their intuition as they don't know the rules yet. But doing astrology mechanically by the rules would be as bad as writing a piece of music based entirely on the rules of music theory and composition. Those rules are tools and meant to help you out of a bind when writing a tune. Likewise astrology is a form of divination like palmistry. We don't know how it works but it does work in the hands of someone with intuition and the ability to divine meaning out of abstraction. In our computer age it is now possible to examine recurring patterns that took place over centuries. One recurring pattern that is being studied shows an 80 year recurring cycle that expresses itself through our global politics. Think what was taking place 80 years ago and compare it with now. This cycle has been shown to go back about 900 years. Predictive astrology is a primitive method of mapping these cycles. In general it is a weather report that provides the propensity for events happening. I know Chakrapani and he's also looked at my horoscope in one of his group sessions. Blurted out that I should have been a doctor because of the presence of Jupiter in my first house. Interesting because I have no problem understanding medical and biochemical principles but if I had chosen that field I would have gone the research rather than clinical route. But I have a strong third house ruled by Jupiter which drove me into the arts. I even regard computer programming as an artform and not a science. The discussion here is hilarious as we have a bunch of blind men commenting on the elephant called astrology. :-D On 02/28/2015 05:54 AM, feste37 wrote: That's interesting. I have never consulted one of the MMY-approved jyotishees, and from what I have heard they are not that great. I'm sorry that they didn't do a good job for you. I can assure you that the readings I am referring to did not fit your description of feeble character analysis. They were detailed and accurate and very useful. I recommend Chakrapani in LA as one of them. At one point he said something to me that was dead-on accurate and I said I didn't think anyone else knew that about me! He just laughed. I wonder if the MMY jyotishees are kind of mass produced, so to speak, not people for whom the study of astrology is a lifetime's calling. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. Well I have. From Marshy's favourite jyotishee apparently. It was rubbish. But then you might say he just wasn't a very competent astrologer. The funny thing was everyone on the course I was attending thought he was great until I started pointing out the obvious shortcomings in what he was telling people. Most of them were being told the same thing and it was all so India-centric, with advice to get jobs as ticket-wallas and such like, that it was embarrassing. But not to the devotees until I opened my mouth, they thought it was great. I wonder what you would have said about his skills? I only went along for the reading because my girlfriend wanted a compatibility chart done. He said we were perfect except for occasional disagreements (wow) and should take care communicating. He told her she would take a journey up a great river and write a book about science. She didn't on both counts. He told me I'd be very wealthy in middle age. Not so far but I don't give much of a toss anyway. I'll let you know if it comes to pass. The rest of it was feeble character analysis such as you would get in any 5 cent gipsy tent at the local fair You are kind but like to say what you think etc... See Rorshach for further details. The only time astrology interests me is when they make claims about these periods in life that we supposedly go through. Things people in the TMO say like I'm in gurmuntha and so can't be expected to be successful just now this is all checkable and I was disappointed that it didn't match up. It seems more likely that we just cherry pick things from life to say that we agree with the planetary diagnosis and if it doesn't work we can blame our karma. I've heard it all. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
I'll step aside and wait for Sal to answer this one - anything I say would just
sound mean.
From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board
more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there
is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose
minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal
chart done by a competent astrologer. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get
such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have
used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first
reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He
also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be
grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through
astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot
on too.) As for the sceptics, I am reminded of the remark attributed to Isaac
Newton when the astronomer Halley tweaked him about his belief in astrology.
Sir, I have studied it; you have not.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :
And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be
laughing at you Bhai.
From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
You just made yourself alaughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with
thatstatement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves mypoint. Another
beer? :-D
On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBeeturquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:
Exactly. It's the fact that hebelieves in astrology that puts him in the
samecamp as someone who believes that the moon is madeof green cheese. What
*type* of astrology hebelieves in is irrelevant.
From:Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife]FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent:Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM
Subject:Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things getso screwed up?
Ahem,the person in question is theBritish politician who advocatesastrology.
BTW, I started readingabout this several days ago. Itsounds like he practices
westernastrology though not vedic. That's why I kidded Sal togo ask him. :-D
On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@...[FairfieldLife] wrote:
Askingwhat kind of astrology aperson practices is likeasking someone
whobelieves that the moonis made of green cheesewhat kind of knifeastronauts
should use toslice themselves off achunk of moon to servefor dinner. :-)
From: Bhairitu noozguru@...[FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
He'sright about onething: most ofthe astrologycritics knowshit aboutastrology.
Whatkind ofastrology doeshe follow: vedic(sidereal) orwestern? Whydon't you go
askhim.
On 02/27/201512:21 AM,salyavin808wrote:
Itseems thatBritain'sruling classhave a secretpenchant forasking thestars
foradvice andsome evenbelieve it'sthe missinglink inhealthcare.Those
stupidscientistsjust don'tunderstand itapparently. Myfavouritequote here isthat
astrologymay not standup to scrutinybut is basedon thousandsof years
ofobservations.But majorityof those wereobserving thewrong numberof planets
Alsointeresting isthe claim thatcriticism ofastrology isracism! Soundslike
adesperategambit to me.
Thisis the marchof theidiocracy.We'll be backin the stoneage before weknow it.
Iknow whatwould solvecrisis in theNHS, says ToryMP: astrology- Telegraph
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| Iknow whatwould solvecrisis in theNHS, says
ToryMP:...DavidTredinnick,the MP forBosworth inLeicestershire,predicts thatif
doctorslook to thestars theywill find waysto treatpatients andtake hugepressure
of... |
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| View on www.telegraph.co.uk| Preview byYahoo |
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
an open mind, by the regulars on this forum, will always be trumped by a clever put down, followed by the predictable pile on. and of course Queen Bee will be leading the charge with his banging of the shoe on the podium, show me the irrefutable proof, backed by peer reviewed studies, and strict controls, as if anyone really pays much attention to those routine tirades. to really get a feel for someone, it's best to look at their quality of life. that's a pretty reliable indicator of how things are going. making the rounds of pubs, endless tv and movie watching. doesn't really make for an exceptional attitude, I'd say. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) As for the sceptics, I am reminded of the remark attributed to Isaac Newton when the astronomer Halley tweaked him about his belief in astrology. Sir, I have studied it; you have not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why I kidded Sal to go ask him. :-D On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for dinner. :-) From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com He'sright about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... DavidTredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
wonder what tomorrow's pub rap will be. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : an open mind, by the regulars on this forum, will always be trumped by a clever put down, followed by the predictable pile on. and of course Queen Bee will be leading the charge with his banging of the shoe on the podium, show me the irrefutable proof, backed by peer reviewed studies, and strict controls, as if anyone really pays much attention to those routine tirades. to really get a feel for someone, it's best to look at their quality of life. that's a pretty reliable indicator of how things are going. making the rounds of pubs, endless tv and movie watching. doesn't really make for an exceptional attitude, I'd say. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) As for the sceptics, I am reminded of the remark attributed to Isaac Newton when the astronomer Halley tweaked him about his belief in astrology. Sir, I have studied it; you have not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why I kidded Sal to go ask him. :-D On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for dinner. :-) From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com He'sright about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... DavidTredinnick, the MP for Bosworth
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
He's right about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html image http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html David Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge pressure of... View on www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
*Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why /I kidded/ Sal to go ask him. :-D * On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: */Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for dinner. :-)/* *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com He's right about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html image http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html David Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge pressure of... View on www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
You may enjoy this article: http://neoacademic.com/2014/02/14/nsf-report-flawed-americans-do-not-believe-astrology-is-scientific/ On 02/27/2015 08:59 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : He's right about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. Me go to Bosworth? bit of a bike ride in this weather! Not much chance of seeing him if I did anyway. Now, if it was my local MP it would be a different story, I could get an appointment and go ask if he was joking and if not could he cast my chart and tell my about my past, future and current state of health. Would be fun! Wouldn't really matter what type of astrology he was doing though as the results are the only important bit and he seems aware that it doesn't pan out in studies anyway, but somehow the fact that people believe it seems to matter more. I'm sure the procurement office of the NHS would love to receive a research proposal based on anecdotes. Maybe he knows the UKIP MP who had to resign after claiming that legalising gay marriage caused the severe floods last winter? They could form a new type of political party based on old wives tales. For instance, we could raise taxes to breed loads of black cats so they run around in front of people and improve their luck. Probably save money in the long run... On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html image http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html David Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge pressure of... View on www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be
laughing at you Bhai.
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with
that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point.
Another beer? :-D
On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
wrote:
Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the
same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What
*type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant.
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates
astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like
he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why I kidded Sal to go
ask him. :-D
On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
wrote:
Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone
who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife
astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for
dinner. :-)
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
He's right about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit
about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or
western? Why don't you go ask him.
On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote:
It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the
stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare.
Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite
quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on
thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the
wrong number of planets
Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds
like a desperate gambit to me.
This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before
we know it.
I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology -
Telegraph
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| I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... David
Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors
look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge
pressure of...|
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| View on www.telegraph.co.uk |Preview by Yahoo|
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
*You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D *On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: */Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant. /* *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? *Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why /I kidded/ Sal to go ask him. :-D * On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com mailto:turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: */Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for dinner. :-)/* *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net mailto:noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com He's right about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html image http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html David Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge pressure of... View on www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
I thought I'd made myself clear. In my well-considered opinion, I class anyone
who believes in astrology in the same category as someone who believes that the
moon is made of green cheese. What *variety* of astrology they believe in is
therefore irrelevant. What they think of me is also irrelevant.
Knowing shit about astrology is the most irrelevant of all. Look, I get it.
You believe in this stuff and you've devoted time and energy to study it, and
thus you are more than a little attached to believing that you didn't waste
your time. I think you did, and I'm not willing to waste mine.
We're at an impasse. You will never convince me otherwise, except by producing
a study conducted with near-perfect protocols and study design that proves
otherwise, so strongly that *any* scientist would believe it. We (non-believers
in astrology) have said this on this forum many times, inviting the believers
in astrology here to perform a mini-verison of such a study and predict some
concrete, non-falsifiable event in the future that can be easily verified as
either having happened in the predicted (and short term) timeline, or
disproved. Not one of you has ever done so. It is my contention that you have
not done so because you can't.
So the bottom line is that I think it's just FINE for you to believe in
astrology, even though I think it's a crock of shit. You can't ever change my
mind about this *EXCEPT* by producing the kind of definitive, scientific study
I ask for. There it stands. Put up or shut up.
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with
that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point.
Another beer? :-D
On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
wrote:
Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the
same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What
*type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant.
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates
astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like
he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why I kidded Sal to go
ask him. :-D
On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
wrote:
Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone
who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife
astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for
dinner. :-)
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
He's right about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit
about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or
western? Why don't you go ask him.
On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote:
It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the
stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare.
Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite
quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on
thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the
wrong number of planets
Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds
like a desperate gambit to me.
This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before
we know it.
I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology -
Telegraph
|
|
|
||
| I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... David
Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors
look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge
pressure of...|
|
| View on www.telegraph.co.uk |Preview by Yahoo|
|
|
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone who
believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife astronauts
should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for dinner. :-)
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
He's right about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about
astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western?
Why don't you go ask him.
On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote:
It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the
stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare.
Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote
here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands
of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number
of planets
Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds
like a desperate gambit to me.
This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we
know it.
I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph
|
|
|
||
| I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... David
Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors
look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge pressure
of...|
|
| View on www.telegraph.co.uk |Preview by Yahoo|
|
|
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Had to look up the UKIP
UKIP is a patriotic party that promotes independence: from the EU, and from
government interference. We believe in free trade, lower taxes, personal
freedom and responsibility. UKIP believes in Britain becoming a democratic,
self-governing country once again.
I had forgot them - and there he is! Nigel Farage!! what a guy!
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :
God damn! I can't believe this guy would say that publicly! Here in the US it
would be political suicide (unless you are Dennis Kucinich). Does this Tory
have a penchant for saying and doing stupid stuff?
I've never heard of him before but there are plenty of eccentric MP's, it goes
with the territory I think. We are well used to the idea that the country is
run by incompetent, scientifically illiterate maniacs in the pockets of
lobbying and special interest groups. I'd rather he believed in astrology than
spent public money supporting Zionism for instance. Though he might do both I
suppose...
There used to be loads more crazy parties but Maggie Thatcher increased the
amount it cost to stand to Parliament to put them off as she thought they
cheapened the whole political process. I think they joined the major parties
which explains our star-crazed friend here, or formed UKIP and the Natural Law
Party.
We really were crazy. I didn't vote for NLP even when I worked there. Other
parties, like the Greens, were happy with us because it took the heat off them,
compared to us they looked positively electable. Even The Monster Raving Loony
Party couldn't top our promise to improve coherence in collective consciousness
by jumping around in our pyjamas. It takes a genius to think of that!
To go back to an earlier conversation, this story s the sort of thing the TMO
will send out a press release about. He will have been contacted by the media
office with sheafs of information about vedic astrology and how he's a fool for
using the inferior western kind. It's what I used to do!
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 3:21 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the
stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare.
Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote
here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands
of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number
of planets
Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds
like a desperate gambit to me.
This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we
know it.
I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph
| |
| | | | I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:...
David Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if
doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge
pressure of... | |
| View on www.telegraph.co.uk| Preview by Yahoo |
| |
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : He's right about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. Me go to Bosworth? bit of a bike ride in this weather! Not much chance of seeing him if I did anyway. Now, if it was my local MP it would be a different story, I could get an appointment and go ask if he was joking and if not could he cast my chart and tell my about my past, future and current state of health. Would be fun! Wouldn't really matter what type of astrology he was doing though as the results are the only important bit and he seems aware that it doesn't pan out in studies anyway, but somehow the fact that people believe it seems to matter more. I'm sure the procurement office of the NHS would love to receive a research proposal based on anecdotes. Maybe he knows the UKIP MP who had to resign after claiming that legalising gay marriage caused the severe floods last winter? They could form a new type of political party based on old wives tales. For instance, we could raise taxes to breed loads of black cats so they run around in front of people and improve their luck. Probably save money in the long run... On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... David Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge pressure of... View on www.telegraph.co.uk Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same
camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type*
of astrology he believes in is irrelevant.
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates
astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like
he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why I kidded Sal to go
ask him. :-D
On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
wrote:
Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone
who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife
astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for
dinner. :-)
From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
He's right about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit
about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or
western? Why don't you go ask him.
On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote:
It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the
stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare.
Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite
quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on
thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the
wrong number of planets
Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds
like a desperate gambit to me.
This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we
know it.
I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology -
Telegraph
|
|
|
||
| I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... David
Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors
look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge pressure
of...|
|
| View on www.telegraph.co.uk |Preview by Yahoo|
|
|
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : God damn! I can't believe this guy would say that publicly! Here in the US it would be political suicide (unless you are Dennis Kucinich). Does this Tory have a penchant for saying and doing stupid stuff? I've never heard of him before but there are plenty of eccentric MP's, it goes with the territory I think. We are well used to the idea that the country is run by incompetent, scientifically illiterate maniacs in the pockets of lobbying and special interest groups. I'd rather he believed in astrology than spent public money supporting Zionism for instance. Though he might do both I suppose... There used to be loads more crazy parties but Maggie Thatcher increased the amount it cost to stand to Parliament to put them off as she thought they cheapened the whole political process. I think they joined the major parties which explains our star-crazed friend here, or formed UKIP and the Natural Law Party. We really were crazy. I didn't vote for NLP even when I worked there. Other parties, like the Greens, were happy with us because it took the heat off them, compared to us they looked positively electable. Even The Monster Raving Loony Party couldn't top our promise to improve coherence in collective consciousness by jumping around in our pyjamas. It takes a genius to think of that! To go back to an earlier conversation, this story s the sort of thing the TMO will send out a press release about. He will have been contacted by the media office with sheafs of information about vedic astrology and how he's a fool for using the inferior western kind. It's what I used to do! From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 3:21 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html David Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge pressure of... View on www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
God damn! I can't believe this guy would say that publicly! Here in the US it
would be political suicide (unless you are Dennis Kucinich). Does this Tory
have a penchant for saying and doing stupid stuff?
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 3:21 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the
stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare.
Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote
here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands
of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number
of planets
Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds
like a desperate gambit to me.
This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we
know it.
I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph
||
|||| I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory
MP:... David Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that
if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take
huge pressure of...||
| View on www.telegraph.co.uk |Preview by Yahoo|
||
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
The sentence */what *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant /*is totally wrong. It is VERY relevant if one is going to discuss the subject. But yes you are free to you own opinion as is the other 7 billion folks on the planet free to their own. :-D On 02/27/2015 09:52 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: */I thought I'd made myself clear. In my well-considered opinion, I class anyone who believes in astrology in the same category as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *variety* of astrology they believe in is therefore irrelevant. What they think of me is also irrelevant. /* */ /* */Knowing shit about astrology is the most irrelevant of all. Look, I get it. You believe in this stuff and you've devoted time and energy to study it, and thus you are more than a little attached to believing that you didn't waste your time. I think you did, and I'm not willing to waste mine. /* */ /* */We're at an impasse. You will never convince me otherwise, except by producing a study conducted with near-perfect protocols and study design that proves otherwise, so strongly that *any* scientist would believe it. We (non-believers in astrology) have said this on this forum many times, inviting the believers in astrology here to perform a mini-verison of such a study and predict some concrete, non-falsifiable event in the future that can be easily verified as either having happened in the predicted (and short term) timeline, or disproved. Not one of you has ever done so. It is my contention that you have not done so because you can't. /* */ /* */So the bottom line is that I think it's just FINE for you to believe in astrology, even though I think it's a crock of shit. You can't ever change my mind about this *EXCEPT* by producing the kind of definitive, scientific study I ask for. There it stands. Put up or shut up. /* *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, February 27, 2015 6:32 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? *You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D *On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com mailto:turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: */Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant. /* *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net mailto:noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? *Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why /I kidded/ Sal to go ask him. :-D * On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com mailto:turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: */Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for dinner. :-)/* *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net mailto:noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com He's right about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Like I care. The field has had very little research done though such is starting emerge in our computerized age when you don't need big funding to do so. On 02/27/2015 09:46 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? *You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D *On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com mailto:turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: */Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant. /* *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net mailto:noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? *Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why /I kidded/ Sal to go ask him. :-D * On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com mailto:turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: */Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for dinner. :-)/* *From:* Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net mailto:noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com He's right about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html image http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html David Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge pressure of... View on www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Had to look up the UKIP UKIP is a patriotic party that promotes independence: from the EU, and from government interference. We believe in free trade, lower taxes, personal freedom and responsibility. UKIP believes in Britain becoming a democratic, self-governing country once again. I had forgot them - and there he is! Nigel Farage!! what a guy! He's over there right now, you should be able to get a ticket: The picture that shows just how big Nigel Farage really is http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/nigel-farage-addresses-nearly-empty-room-during-us-conservative-conference-speech-10074264.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/nigel-farage-addresses-nearly-empty-room-during-us-conservative-conference-speech-10074264.html The picture that shows just how big Nigel Farage really ... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/nigel-farage-addresses-nearly-empty-room-during-us-conservative-conference-speech-10074264.html It was meant to be a speech that proved once and for all the Ukip leader is big in America. Instead, Nigel Farage's tub-thumping speech to the great and good ... View on www.independent.co.uk http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/nigel-farage-addresses-nearly-empty-room-during-us-conservative-conference-speech-10074264.html Preview by Yahoo From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : God damn! I can't believe this guy would say that publicly! Here in the US it would be political suicide (unless you are Dennis Kucinich). Does this Tory have a penchant for saying and doing stupid stuff? I've never heard of him before but there are plenty of eccentric MP's, it goes with the territory I think. We are well used to the idea that the country is run by incompetent, scientifically illiterate maniacs in the pockets of lobbying and special interest groups. I'd rather he believed in astrology than spent public money supporting Zionism for instance. Though he might do both I suppose... There used to be loads more crazy parties but Maggie Thatcher increased the amount it cost to stand to Parliament to put them off as she thought they cheapened the whole political process. I think they joined the major parties which explains our star-crazed friend here, or formed UKIP and the Natural Law Party. We really were crazy. I didn't vote for NLP even when I worked there. Other parties, like the Greens, were happy with us because it took the heat off them, compared to us they looked positively electable. Even The Monster Raving Loony Party couldn't top our promise to improve coherence in collective consciousness by jumping around in our pyjamas. It takes a genius to think of that! To go back to an earlier conversation, this story s the sort of thing the TMO will send out a press release about. He will have been contacted by the media office with sheafs of information about vedic astrology and how he's a fool for using the inferior western kind. It's what I used to do! From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 3:21 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html David Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge pressure of... View on www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
The NHS must be like our NIH who gives money to the Movement to do studies on
TM plus loads of other crap projects that exist mainly to give pay-ola to the
people who do the studies.
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote :
He's right about one thing: most of theastrology critics know shit about
astrology. What kind ofastrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western?
Why don'tyou go ask him.
Me go to Bosworth? bit of a bike ride in this weather! Not much chance of
seeing him if I did anyway.
Now, if it was my local MP it would be a different story, I could get an
appointment and go ask if he was joking and if not could he cast my chart and
tell my about my past, future and current state of health. Would be fun!
Wouldn't really matter what type of astrology he was doing though as the
results are the only important bit and he seems aware that it doesn't pan out
in studies anyway, but somehow the fact that people believe it seems to matter
more. I'm sure the procurement office of the NHS would love to receive a
research proposal based on anecdotes.
Maybe he knows the UKIP MP who had to resign after claiming that legalising gay
marriage caused the severe floods last winter? They could form a new type of
political party based on old wives tales. For instance, we could raise taxes to
breed loads of black cats so they run around in front of people and improve
their luck. Probably save money in the long run...
On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote:
It seems thatBritain's ruling class have a secret penchant for askingthe stars
for advice and some even believe it's themissing link in healthcare. Those
stupid scientists justdon't understand it apparently. My favourite quote hereis
that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but isbased on thousands of years
of observations. Butmajority of those were observing the wrong number
ofplanets
Also interesting isthe claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Soundslike
a desperate gambit to me.
Thisis the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in thestone age before we know
it.
Iknow what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:astrology - Telegraph
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|Iknow what would solve crisis in the NHS,says Tory MP:... David
Tredinnick, theMP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predictsthat if doctors look
to the stars they willfind ways to treat patients and take hugepressure of... |
|
| View on www.telegraph.co.uk | Preview by Yahoo |
|
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Why would anyone do that? You can't even prove anything you believe in. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I thought I'd made myself clear. In my well-considered opinion, I class anyone who believes in astrology in the same category as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *variety* of astrology they believe in is therefore irrelevant. What they think of me is also irrelevant. Knowing shit about astrology is the most irrelevant of all. Look, I get it. You believe in this stuff and you've devoted time and energy to study it, and thus you are more than a little attached to believing that you didn't waste your time. I think you did, and I'm not willing to waste mine. We're at an impasse. You will never convince me otherwise, except by producing a study conducted with near-perfect protocols and study design that proves otherwise, so strongly that *any* scientist would believe it. We (non-believers in astrology) have said this on this forum many times, inviting the believers in astrology here to perform a mini-verison of such a study and predict some concrete, non-falsifiable event in the future that can be easily verified as either having happened in the predicted (and short term) timeline, or disproved. Not one of you has ever done so. It is my contention that you have not done so because you can't. So the bottom line is that I think it's just FINE for you to believe in astrology, even though I think it's a crock of shit. You can't ever change my mind about this *EXCEPT* by producing the kind of definitive, scientific study I ask for. There it stands. Put up or shut up. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why I kidded Sal to go ask him. :-D On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for dinner. :-) From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com He'sright about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... DavidTredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge pressure of... View on www.telegraph.co.uk Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Here's a related article from that occasional font of wisdom, Cracked.com.
Check out #3 and #2 in this list of lingering superstitions with global impact
-- in China, your astrological sign can cost you your job or your life.
5 Harmless Superstitions With Horrifying Global Consequences
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| 5 Harmless Superstitions With Horrifying Global Conseque...If you step back
and take a broader look at the ripples that such preposterous notions send
butterfly-effecting across the world, you find that things we tend to th... |
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| View on www.cracked.com | Preview by Yahoo |
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While you're there on the Cracked site, check out the other lead article 4
Ways America Screws the World (Nobody Talks About). Full of fascinating facts
I never knew. For example, the fact that Mexico, which has more firearm deaths
per year than the U.S. does, but only has one gun store in the whole country.
All of the rest of the country's guns come from the U.S.
It was also fascinating to learn in the same article that America has more gun
stores than it has McDonalds.
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the
stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare.
Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote
here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands
of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number
of planets
Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds
like a desperate gambit to me.
This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we
know it.
I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph
||
|||| I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory
MP:... David Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that
if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take
huge pressure of...||
| View on www.telegraph.co.uk |Preview by Yahoo|
||
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[FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html David Tredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge pressure of... View on www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
Barry, tell me honestly, please, if you don't mind. Do you, or do you not believe that someone who believes in astrology is in the same league as someone who believes he moon is made of cheese? Take your time, if you wish, before answering. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I thought I'd made myself clear. In my well-considered opinion, I class anyone who believes in astrology in the same category as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *variety* of astrology they believe in is therefore irrelevant. What they think of me is also irrelevant. Knowing shit about astrology is the most irrelevant of all. Look, I get it. You believe in this stuff and you've devoted time and energy to study it, and thus you are more than a little attached to believing that you didn't waste your time. I think you did, and I'm not willing to waste mine. We're at an impasse. You will never convince me otherwise, except by producing a study conducted with near-perfect protocols and study design that proves otherwise, so strongly that *any* scientist would believe it. We (non-believers in astrology) have said this on this forum many times, inviting the believers in astrology here to perform a mini-verison of such a study and predict some concrete, non-falsifiable event in the future that can be easily verified as either having happened in the predicted (and short term) timeline, or disproved. Not one of you has ever done so. It is my contention that you have not done so because you can't. So the bottom line is that I think it's just FINE for you to believe in astrology, even though I think it's a crock of shit. You can't ever change my mind about this *EXCEPT* by producing the kind of definitive, scientific study I ask for. There it stands. Put up or shut up. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why I kidded Sal to go ask him. :-D On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for dinner. :-) From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com He'sright about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... DavidTredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge pressure of... View on www.telegraph.co.uk Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up?
In my experience over the past 35 years, and I have said so on this board more than once, astrology is the best tool for self-understanding that there is—at least, the best I have found. I'm sorry for these scientific types whose minds are so closed. I wonder whether any of them have ever had their natal chart done by a competent astrologer. I would doubt it. Astrology does not get such high marks from me for predicting the future, but that's not what I have used it for. Astrology can tell you a huge amount about who you are. The first reading I ever had was from an American astrologer named Howard Sasportas. He also happened to be a TM teacher. He was absolutely brilliant. I will always be grateful to him for the way he gave me an understanding of myself through astrology. (And as it happens, his predictions for the future were pretty spot on too.) As for the sceptics, I am reminded of the remark attributed to Isaac Newton when the astronomer Halley tweaked him about his belief in astrology. Sir, I have studied it; you have not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : And everyone who thinks astrology is crap or at least a benign fantasy would be laughing at you Bhai. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? You just made yourself a laughing stock to anyone who knows astrology with that statement. Show you know shit about astrology and proves my point. Another beer? :-D On 02/27/2015 09:06 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Exactly. It's the fact that he believes in astrology that puts him in the same camp as someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese. What *type* of astrology he believes in is irrelevant. From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Maybe this is why things get so screwed up? Ahem, the person in question is the British politician who advocates astrology. BTW, I started reading about this several days ago. It sounds like he practices western astrology though not vedic. That's why I kidded Sal to go ask him. :-D On 02/27/2015 08:54 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Asking what kind of astrology a person practices is like asking someone who believes that the moon is made of green cheese what kind of knife astronauts should use to slice themselves off a chunk of moon to serve for dinner. :-) From: Bhairitu noozguru@... mailto:noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com He'sright about one thing: most of the astrology critics know shit about astrology. What kind of astrology does he follow: vedic (sidereal) or western? Why don't you go ask him. On 02/27/2015 12:21 AM, salyavin808 wrote: It seems that Britain's ruling class have a secret penchant for asking the stars for advice and some even believe it's the missing link in healthcare. Those stupid scientists just don't understand it apparently. My favourite quote here is that astrology may not stand up to scrutiny but is based on thousands of years of observations. But majority of those were observing the wrong number of planets Also interesting is the claim that criticism of astrology is racism! Sounds like a desperate gambit to me. This is the march of the idiocracy. We'll be back in the stone age before we know it. I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP: astrology - Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11432344/Astrology-could-solve-crisis-in-the-NHS-says-Tory-MP.html I know what would solve crisis in the NHS, says Tory MP:... DavidTredinnick, the MP for Bosworth in Leicestershire, predicts that if doctors look to the stars they will find ways to treat patients and take huge pressure of... View on www.telegraph.co.uk Preview by Yahoo
