[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
Thank you, Sal. Like most everyone, my interests wax and wane. I expect I'll post a bit from time to time. Marek *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine salsunshine@... wrote: On Oct 16, 2011, at 12:06 PM, marekreavis wrote: Just getting back into surfing following a 3-month hiatus after some surgeries that set me back quite a bit. I've been out a half-dozen times and I'm getting stronger but the waves are getting bigger again, too, and I'm challenged by simple head-highs; so I still mostly suck at this point and that's disappointing. Nevertheless, it remains the best thing ever. (I'm a prisoner of its specialness.) Feel better, Marek. Hopefully soon. Your posts and your unique take on things are much missed here. Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
(Curtis, begins below the ad) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip [Curtis wrote:] I guess we are at an impasse. I believe I have and you just aren't buying it, I can't even find it to decide whether I'm buying it or not. just as I am not buying it as evidence of Vaj not being a teacher. He is using non Tmy language for a subjective process that you and I both do. Not just language but the concepts the language represents (as I've said several times now), which are not compatible with TM as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. You find it does not match your experience, I find no problem with it. He didn't say vigilantly monitoring so that no other thoughts could intrude as you whip your brain into a synaptic frenzy through diligent, focused mantra application. Straw man. Nobody suggested he did. Even very subtle effort can inhibit transcending. He said monitoring which is another word for noticing in this context, No, monitoring and noticing are not synonyms in this context. Monitoring is intentional, noticing is not. Noticing is what should happen in TM. Thanks for supplying the appropriate term. and the phrase waiting for the mantra which both can happen in my TM meditation. Would you mind describing the waiting for the mantra situation you believe happens in your TM meditation? snip And you told them to wait for the mantra and to monitor their meditation to make sure that... what?? To keep checking to see if they're thinking thoughts instead of mantra? When I taught TM I used the official terms of the movement exclusively. Vaj is not bound by that now. Right, he uses terms for concepts that don't apply in TM. There is a mental process of monitoring that gets automated in TM so you remember you are meditating and not just thinking. It might not be the best term to use in teaching a new meditator who might interpret it as constantly monitoring. But it is accurate to what has to happen to continue to meditate. Part of our brain is actually monitoring while we meditate. Speak for your own brain. That isn't what my brain does. snip There is no part of my awareness that repeats any other thoughts, with the mantra there is, he is calling that monitoring, neurologically he is correct. That is how the mind knows that we are off the mantra. I don't know how you can call that monitoring, neurologically or any other way. The train of ordinary thought has ended, and the next thought that pops up is, I'm not entertaining the mantra. How is that monitoring? We must agree to disagree here. About the use of the term and what it means about Vaj. What I described is called noticing. It's nonintentional, unlike monitoring. He made further distinctions which I also explained before which distinguished beginners and experienced meditators. None of which had to do with waiting for the mantra or mindfulness or monitoring one's meditation. The term mindfulness doesn't come from TM language. Can you make a guess where it comes from knowing his background? Yes, we all know where the term and the concept come from. They're entirely appropriate in that tradition. They aren't in TM. Mindfulness is a sustained practice of constant or at least frequent monitoring (that's what one attempts, at any rate). You said above that you wouldn't use the term monitoring with TM students lest they think it meant constant monitoring. But that's what mindfulness is. From Wikipedia: The Buddha advocated that one should establish mindfulness (satipatthana) in one's day-to-day life maintaining as much as possible a calm awareness of one's bodily functions, sensations (feelings), objects of consciousness (thoughts and perceptions), and consciousness itself. It's also referred to as *smrti* in Buddhism. Vaj has used smrti to refer to what one is enjoined to do during TM. As I said he is collaging together his past and present understanding of meditation of meditation and describing it as he sees TM now without regard to the TM rules for how to speak about it. And without regard to whether the concepts he describes apply in TM. snip We are talking about different things. As I said before, when I read the quotes out of context I thought about it one way. When I read the posts I thought about it another way. He is not talking to a new meditator he was talking to you and Raunchy. He gave his view. You think it reveals something that I don't. I don't see him as some sinister deceiver, misleading people here. Not a sinister deceiver, an *incompetent* deceiver. I think he's a fraud not just with regard to his TM status but with regard to his purported knowledge of other traditions. As emptybill put it, he weaves a web to dazzle the uninformed. But if you have a good sense of language in
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: Curtis, at the end of this, I'm responding to your questions about Buck, since I'm almost out of posts. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip I believe you are missing his point but I could be wrong. In the way I understand it, he is making a distinction between thinking the mantra and any other thought. OK, you don't want to acknowledge the problem. Doesn't really surprise me. You are off to a bad start. I don't agree with the problem you have with his terminology and have spelled out why. You haven't *addressed* the problem I've outlined. You've tiptoed all around it. In what you wrote right after having read the posts I referred you to, you defended a number of points that I hadn't disputed, that weren't among my objections. I told you that in my response. The idea of a distinction between thinking the mantra and thinking any other thought is one of those I haven't objected to, and yet here you are bringing it up again as if I had. Because you seem to miss that this is key to understanding why Vaj might have used the term monitoring. And when you weren't defending points I had never objected to, you went all meta about how I didn't get his point, or your point, or both, that I was just trying to make him wrong, and that I was confusing levels and so on. But you *haven't addressed what I WAS objecting to*. I went back over the posts just now to make sure. When I say wasn't objecting to, I mean wasn't what I consider evidence that Vaj was never a TM teacher, not that these were necessarily points that I agree with. As far as I'm concerned, those are two different categories. He says a whole lot that I disagree with, but only certain things that he gets *factually* wrong about the practice and the instruction fall into the category of evidence that he was never a TM teacher. The main ones are waiting for the mantra and monitoring one's meditation and that one is enjoined to maintain mindfulness. And those are the ones you haven't addressed. I guess we are at an impasse. I believe I have and you just aren't buying it, just as I am not buying it as evidence of Vaj not being a teacher. He is using non Tmy language for a subjective process that you and I both do. You find it does not match your experience, I find no problem with it. He didn't say vigilantly monitoring so that no other thoughts could intrude as you whip your brain into a synaptic frenzy through diligent, focused mantra application. He said monitoring which is another word for noticing in this context, and the phrase waiting for the mantra which both can happen in my TM meditation. snip Here, finally, you take something of a stab at it: The way you are paraphrasing it out of the context of his post seems misleading to how I understood what he was saying. I have taught people who couldn't get it right about not having to pick up the mantra because it seemed like an effort. And you told them to wait for the mantra and to monitor their meditation to make sure that...what?? To keep checking to see if they're thinking thoughts instead of mantra? When I taught TM I used the official terms of the movement exclusively. Vaj is not bound by that now. There is a mental process of monitoring that gets automated in TM so you remember you are meditating and not just thinking. It might not be the best term to use in teaching a new meditator who might interpret it as constantly monitoring. But it is accurate to what has to happen to continue to meditate. Part of our brain is actually monitoring while we meditate. (Although you didn't respond to the above.) What *was* he saying, Curtis? You keep saying I'm missing his point, but you never say what you think his point *is*. I explained what I thought this meant in detail. You really, really did not, Curtis. Here, as noted, you sort of do: It is a way of looking at the use of the mantra as different from other thoughts which was the context of the point. (No objection--see above for what I mean by objection-- to this. But of course it's not what is meant in the TM instruction by just like any other thought. That refers to effortlessness. It's just as you would think any other thought, not the mantra is a thought just like any other. Of course it's different in that you entertain it until you lose it. Duh.) And the process that makes that possible could be described as monitoring. There is no part of my awareness that repeats any other thoughts, with the mantra there is, he is calling that monitoring, neurologically he is correct. That is how the mind knows that
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
Feel free to respond or to pursue whatever interests you. I see no sign in what you've written below, however, that you plan to address my specific concerns. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote: I'll answer in more detail later but on first read one point I want to make is that my opinion is evolving as I read the posts and think about them. There is no contradiction between noticing that Vaj is using concepts in a way that we wouldn't teach to a new meditator, and then noticing on further reflection that he seems to be focusing on the experience we have as more experienced meditators. And both of these are filtered through the understanding and terminology that he is into now, not the TM way. I'll pursue it more if you are interested. Not to try to change anyone's mind, but because I think it brings up some interesting issues about how we discuss our internal experiences and if it is possible for communication across systems of meditation or are we all too locked into the terms we are most familiar with. (Myself inclulded)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Judy, I haven't responded to this post which I guess focuses on the points you believe I am missing. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: wrote: snip But it doesn't explain why he says things like Mindfulness of mantra or 'waiting for the mantra' is a natural and important part of TM. This might be his reevaluation. Long term meditators relate differently to this. I don't really ever have to come back to the mantra at a gross level, it is a more gentle process for my attention. Same here. The realization that I've been thinking random thoughts rather than mantra is virtually simultaneous with returning to the mantra. IOW, the return to the mantra is automatic. It's almost as if--and may actually be; hard to tell at that subtle level--there is no thought I'm not on the mantra, just a return to it when the train of ordinary thoughts comes to an end. But I think you're missing the point, which is the idea of waiting for the mantra, of monitoring (another word he used) what's happening. Far from being an important part of TM, Mindfulness of mantra or 'waiting for the mantra makes no sense in the context of TM instruction or the TM process itself. And it most certainly is not part of my experience. You know as well as I do that monitoring is strongly discouraged because it introduces effort. I believe you are missing his point but I could be wrong. In the way I understand it, he is making a distinction between thinking the mantra and any other thought. OK, you don't want to acknowledge the problem. Doesn't really surprise me. You are off to a bad start. I don't agree with the problem you have with his terminology and have spelled out why. You seem to be getting hung up on his terminology. No, it's conceptual, as I noted elsewhere. The point it valid having read his original post in context. As I said before, you guys have completely different agendas here. He is not trying to prove his ability to parrot TM teaching, You say that several times as if someone had suggested he was. I certainly didn't. He was explaining how he believes TM is practiced and what the instructions are, but he got it wrong. If in casual conversation someone who has claimed to be a physician recommends antibiotics to a person who has a cold, you have good reason to suspect their claim is bogus. They aren't trying to prove or parrot anything, they're just saying what they believe to be the case, that a cold is properly treated with antibiotics. he is discussing how it it practiced within the framework of his current understanding. Which is wrong. It may be true of other types of mantra meditation he's familiar with, but it isn't true of TM. I have explained how it could be if you take off the Vaj is deceptive glasses. The way you are paraphrasing it out of the context of his post seems misleading to how I understood what he was saying. I have taught people who couldn't get it right about not having to pick up the mantra because it seemed like an effort. And you told them to wait for the mantra and to monitor their meditation to make sure that...what?? To keep checking to see if they're thinking thoughts instead of mantra? What *was* he saying, Curtis? You keep saying I'm missing his point, but you never say what you think his point *is*. I explained what I thought this meant in detail. It is a way of looking at the use of the mantra as different from other thoughts which was the context of the point. There is no part of my awareness that repeats any other thoughts, with the mantra there is, he is calling that monitoring, neurologically he is correct. That is how the mind knows that we are off the mantra. He made further distinctions which I also explained before which distinguished beginners and experienced meditators. And although sometimes it might be possible to start meditation and be lost in thoughts the whole time, in my experience of teaching it was more usually due to not understanding how the mantra is used. Quite possibly. All I'm pointing out is that once you've made sure the person *does* understand how the mantra is used, you don't tell him or her to be more attentive. If a train of thought is so compelling that the realization of not entertaining the mantra doesn't occur, it's fine. If you start trying to *watch* what you're thinking, that introduces effort. It takes a little back and forth sometime for people to get the hang of it. So his analysis does not ring false experientially. Hmm, so now we're talking about beginning meditators. Except your big point was that Vaj's perspective had to do with deep inner
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
Curtis, at the end of this, I'm responding to your questions about Buck, since I'm almost out of posts. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote: In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip I believe you are missing his point but I could be wrong. In the way I understand it, he is making a distinction between thinking the mantra and any other thought. OK, you don't want to acknowledge the problem. Doesn't really surprise me. You are off to a bad start. I don't agree with the problem you have with his terminology and have spelled out why. You haven't *addressed* the problem I've outlined. You've tiptoed all around it. In what you wrote right after having read the posts I referred you to, you defended a number of points that I hadn't disputed, that weren't among my objections. I told you that in my response. The idea of a distinction between thinking the mantra and thinking any other thought is one of those I haven't objected to, and yet here you are bringing it up again as if I had. And when you weren't defending points I had never objected to, you went all meta about how I didn't get his point, or your point, or both, that I was just trying to make him wrong, and that I was confusing levels and so on. But you *haven't addressed what I WAS objecting to*. I went back over the posts just now to make sure. When I say wasn't objecting to, I mean wasn't what I consider evidence that Vaj was never a TM teacher, not that these were necessarily points that I agree with. As far as I'm concerned, those are two different categories. He says a whole lot that I disagree with, but only certain things that he gets *factually* wrong about the practice and the instruction fall into the category of evidence that he was never a TM teacher. The main ones are waiting for the mantra and monitoring one's meditation and that one is enjoined to maintain mindfulness. And those are the ones you haven't addressed. snip Here, finally, you take something of a stab at it: The way you are paraphrasing it out of the context of his post seems misleading to how I understood what he was saying. I have taught people who couldn't get it right about not having to pick up the mantra because it seemed like an effort. And you told them to wait for the mantra and to monitor their meditation to make sure that...what?? To keep checking to see if they're thinking thoughts instead of mantra? (Although you didn't respond to the above.) What *was* he saying, Curtis? You keep saying I'm missing his point, but you never say what you think his point *is*. I explained what I thought this meant in detail. You really, really did not, Curtis. Here, as noted, you sort of do: It is a way of looking at the use of the mantra as different from other thoughts which was the context of the point. (No objection--see above for what I mean by objection-- to this. But of course it's not what is meant in the TM instruction by just like any other thought. That refers to effortlessness. It's just as you would think any other thought, not the mantra is a thought just like any other. Of course it's different in that you entertain it until you lose it. Duh.) There is no part of my awareness that repeats any other thoughts, with the mantra there is, he is calling that monitoring, neurologically he is correct. That is how the mind knows that we are off the mantra. I don't know how you can call that monitoring, neurologically or any other way. The train of ordinary thought has ended, and the next thought that pops up is, I'm not entertaining the mantra. How is that monitoring? He made further distinctions which I also explained before which distinguished beginners and experienced meditators. None of which had to do with waiting for the mantra or mindfulness or monitoring one's meditation. snip But in Vaj's view they should get a proper instruction from an authorized teacher if I understand him right. There is no reason for him to support the practice of a practice he considers fraudulent. OK, so by you would be perfectly OK for him to deliberately misrepresent TM instruction and practice because he considers it fraudulent. (Assuming in this case that he had done TM.) I can't find where I said this. That's exactly what your response implies in context. And if someone here who practiced one of the techniques he believes is authentic misrepresented it because they considered it fraudulent, presumably he wouldn't object, right? I'm just gunna watch you go down this trail but not join you. That's also implied. If it's OK for him to do it with TM, it should be OK for somebody else to do it with a technique he approves of. snip And an appealing idea is that he never really did TM because if he did, then he
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
Thanks for taking the time to collect the links. I will read the threads and comment. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: Curtis-- I think you'll get most of it if you follow the thread that starts with this August 2009 post from Vaj: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/226302 This is a classic case of what we were talking about mixing together different layers of understanding and using words outside a jargon context. Remember when I mentioned a while back about the choice to stay with the Self in meditation? I shut the discussion down because I felt this was not a suitable context for it but this post touches on some of those issues. I don't view this as evidence of not understanding TM yet. This is an advanced discussion of meditation including TM IMO. Once you open up techniques like the Chopra thing which I had, you have a different view of your options down there, or up there, or in there or whatever it is we are doing wherever. So I get how you could take a position that he shouldn't say what he said in the context of a TM center, but he was discussing it in a very different context outside the need to maintain jargon or approve phrases. Unless you are in a context where being precise about the teaching really matters, or you are hanging around a lot of TMers, or you are just really into being precise about your language of TM, it kind of drops away. We are talking decades of Vaj not trying to be precise about the language. Decades of adapting his memory of how people talk about TM mixed with his new understanding of meditations that he currently practices. Plus you are taking this as some kind of test of his exposure to TM teaching, Vaj is just talking here. He obviously is somewhere the continuum of not giving a shit to actually enjoying that you seem to believe he never was a teacher. There was an earlier thread in March that more or less began here with a post from you: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/213494 Yes, this was the thread I was talking about. So check out Vaj's comment His particular phrasing--which IMO the sensitivity and careful phrasing--is all that is unique. But easy repetition of mantra itself is not unique at all, although limiting oneself to just that slant on mantra, to the exclusion of others, is a uniqueness (really a dogmatic narrowness) of the TM technique. How TM insiderish does he have to be? He is comparing the central teaching of TM to other practices he has been exposed to. And once you have some of the advanced techniques or the Chopra technique, the simple formula of innocence is altered. If out of the blue I told you to think you mantra as if it is coming from your heart, under beginner TM rules you might think this involves effort. It does not as evidenced by higher TM practices. From is next post: Really, in terms of the technical description of how TM is practiced in the initial technique--it's not truly like 'any other thought', as one is enjoined to maintain mindfulness (or smriti to use the actual technical term) both as the mantra first arises (waiting or monitoring for the mantra to appear) and one must be mindful to return to the mantra--otherwise one would potentially end up never returning to the mantra, but remain distracted for the entire session! This is not like any other thought. The level of mantra repetition where mantra continues continuously like a spontaneous thought actually is ajapa-japa: no effort or smriti, just constant ongoing awareness of mantra 24/7/365. This is like a deep experience discussion with Maharishi applying traditional Sanskrit terms to TM with him concluding that it is an effortless effort. (Actual tape) It is a fine distinction between any other thought and the mantra and I have heard Maharishi himself make such a distinction. The terminology may not be movement approved for beginners, but Vaj has combined it with his current perspective. And in the end I get his point. It is a valid distinction. Any other thought flows through my mind with no attempt to go back to it. The mantra has a special quality of attention that the obsessive Hindus have a name for. Here Vaj is bound to piss some TM people off: Technically the style of mantra repetition where one has to return to the mantra still is called faulty or defective in Sanskrit since one has to constantly re-engage the mantra as it is lost. It's one of the lower levels of mantra practice. So he is fitting TM into a whole perspective that demotes TM. Maybe he is right, I don't know. But it doesn't mean he doesn't understand TM to me. I just read your refutation of his point. This is why I didn't pursue this discussion with you when I was making this kind of distinction. The words are so inaccurate that unless you are in good rapport with a person you end up talking about different things, which is
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
Curtis, throughout this post, you've defended Vaj's take on points I never disputed, and ignored the ones I *did* dispute. I may disagree with some (not all) of the points you've defended, but it wouldn't occur to me to cite them as evidence that Vaj was never a TM teacher. In your earlier post, you did acknowledge that some of what I quoted seemed inaccurate as a description of TM practice and instruction. But you've backed off that in this post. And you haven't responded to my immediately previous post in which I challenged a number of your points. I've snipped all your defenses of stuff I was not challenging, because they're completely irrelevant. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote: megasnip [quoting Vaj:] one is enjoined to maintain mindfulness (or smriti to use the actual technical term) both as the mantra first arises (waiting or monitoring for the mantra to appear) and one must be mindful to return to the mantra--otherwise one would potentially end up never returning to the mantra, but remain distracted for the entire session! Here he's describing what he purports to be the instructions for TM (enjoined). (Not to mention that remaining distracted for the entire session--as long as it never occurs to one that one is not thinking the mantra--is 100 percent OK as far as TM instruction is concerned.) In your earlier post you said: - [Me:] He's elaborated on this in a number of different posts in ways that make it crystal clear he believes TMers are instructed to wait for the mantra--that's at the beginning of meditation--and to monitor their meditation throughout, as well as quoting the checking notes way out of context in an attempt to justify the above. [You:] That sounds inaccurate, I agree. - But here, you just quoted one of the very posts I was referring to as if there was nothing wrong with it. (The checking notes point that he quoted out of context in a different post to justify the waiting for notion was point #7, which I briefly discussed earlier, noting that it was a reassurance rather than an instruction.) megasnip I don't doubt that this list of people have their reasons to doubt Here I was responding to your argument that the folks who doubt Vaj's teacher status are TBs who resent his criticisms; and that they've all been influenced by my allegedly compelling personality to adopt my view. but I just don't. It is so much easier for me to see him as a guy into TM who moved on, who is still fascinated with TM and Maharishi as I am for his own reasons now. It seems harder to construct the kind of person who would create such an elaborate presentation. And to what end? To make us all believe that he is into something better that we don't have access to? He comes off as much more normal and sincere than that to me. I haven't taken a poll, so I don't know whether yours is a minority viewpoint on his normality and sincerity. But there are certainly quite a few folks who don't agree, who find him incredibly overbearing and patronizing (and often quite gratuitously insulting); and then there are the many statements he's made that have been documented to be either outright false or seriously misleading (not talking about the current issue you and I are discussing regarding the instructions for TM). Furthermore, a number of people here who have studied one or another of the other systems he claims to have extensive knowledge of have spoken up to insist he doesn't know what he's talking about with regard to these systems either. emptybill is the current example, but there have been others; in some cases lurkers have popped in for a post or two just to call him on some of his errors. I'm not in a position to say who's right in these instances (and neither are you), but they do reinforce the impression that he may not be quite who he claims to be. And finally, when he's challenged on something he's said about TM, he almost never responds directly. Instead, he makes snide remarks about the challenger, spouting arcane Sanskrit or Tibetan terms and going on about what sound like highly esoteric concepts that he knows the challenger is unlikely to be familiar with. If he were truly personally acquainted with TM, he ought to be able to address challenges from TMers in terms they would understand. But he almost never does. In fact, the few times he *has* appeared to attempt to do that have included some of the very assertions about how TM is practiced that I've been objecting to. IOW, when he tries to speak about TM in TM's own terms, he gets it all fouled up. Maybe that's why he does it so rarely. Anyway, finally, a post from me from December 2010, when Vaj brought the same waiting issue up again; my post quotes his extensively (you can track back to find his original in response to a post from emptybill): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/263765 This reinforces my belief
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
I'll answer in more detail later but on first read one point I want to make is that my opinion is evolving as I read the posts and think about them. There is no contradiction between noticing that Vaj is using concepts in a way that we wouldn't teach to a new meditator, and then noticing on further reflection that he seems to be focusing on the experience we have as more experienced meditators. And both of these are filtered through the understanding and terminology that he is into now, not the TM way. I'll pursue it more if you are interested. Not to try to change anyone's mind, but because I think it brings up some interesting issues about how we discuss our internal experiences and if it is possible for communication across systems of meditation or are we all too locked into the terms we are most familiar with. (Myself inclulded) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: Curtis, throughout this post, you've defended Vaj's take on points I never disputed, and ignored the ones I *did* dispute. I may disagree with some (not all) of the points you've defended, but it wouldn't occur to me to cite them as evidence that Vaj was never a TM teacher. In your earlier post, you did acknowledge that some of what I quoted seemed inaccurate as a description of TM practice and instruction. But you've backed off that in this post. And you haven't responded to my immediately previous post in which I challenged a number of your points. I've snipped all your defenses of stuff I was not challenging, because they're completely irrelevant. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: megasnip [quoting Vaj:] one is enjoined to maintain mindfulness (or smriti to use the actual technical term) both as the mantra first arises (waiting or monitoring for the mantra to appear) and one must be mindful to return to the mantra--otherwise one would potentially end up never returning to the mantra, but remain distracted for the entire session! Here he's describing what he purports to be the instructions for TM (enjoined). (Not to mention that remaining distracted for the entire session--as long as it never occurs to one that one is not thinking the mantra--is 100 percent OK as far as TM instruction is concerned.) In your earlier post you said: - [Me:] He's elaborated on this in a number of different posts in ways that make it crystal clear he believes TMers are instructed to wait for the mantra--that's at the beginning of meditation--and to monitor their meditation throughout, as well as quoting the checking notes way out of context in an attempt to justify the above. [You:] That sounds inaccurate, I agree. - But here, you just quoted one of the very posts I was referring to as if there was nothing wrong with it. (The checking notes point that he quoted out of context in a different post to justify the waiting for notion was point #7, which I briefly discussed earlier, noting that it was a reassurance rather than an instruction.) megasnip I don't doubt that this list of people have their reasons to doubt Here I was responding to your argument that the folks who doubt Vaj's teacher status are TBs who resent his criticisms; and that they've all been influenced by my allegedly compelling personality to adopt my view. but I just don't. It is so much easier for me to see him as a guy into TM who moved on, who is still fascinated with TM and Maharishi as I am for his own reasons now. It seems harder to construct the kind of person who would create such an elaborate presentation. And to what end? To make us all believe that he is into something better that we don't have access to? He comes off as much more normal and sincere than that to me. I haven't taken a poll, so I don't know whether yours is a minority viewpoint on his normality and sincerity. But there are certainly quite a few folks who don't agree, who find him incredibly overbearing and patronizing (and often quite gratuitously insulting); and then there are the many statements he's made that have been documented to be either outright false or seriously misleading (not talking about the current issue you and I are discussing regarding the instructions for TM). Furthermore, a number of people here who have studied one or another of the other systems he claims to have extensive knowledge of have spoken up to insist he doesn't know what he's talking about with regard to these systems either. emptybill is the current example, but there have been others; in some cases lurkers have popped in for a post or two just to call him on some of his errors. I'm not in a position to say who's right in these instances (and neither are you), but they do reinforce the impression that he may not be quite who he claims to be. And finally, when he's challenged on
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Judy, I haven't responded to this post which I guess focuses on the points you believe I am missing. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip But it doesn't explain why he says things like Mindfulness of mantra or 'waiting for the mantra' is a natural and important part of TM. This might be his reevaluation. Long term meditators relate differently to this. I don't really ever have to come back to the mantra at a gross level, it is a more gentle process for my attention. Same here. The realization that I've been thinking random thoughts rather than mantra is virtually simultaneous with returning to the mantra. IOW, the return to the mantra is automatic. It's almost as if--and may actually be; hard to tell at that subtle level--there is no thought I'm not on the mantra, just a return to it when the train of ordinary thoughts comes to an end. But I think you're missing the point, which is the idea of waiting for the mantra, of monitoring (another word he used) what's happening. Far from being an important part of TM, Mindfulness of mantra or 'waiting for the mantra makes no sense in the context of TM instruction or the TM process itself. And it most certainly is not part of my experience. You know as well as I do that monitoring is strongly discouraged because it introduces effort. I believe you are missing his point but I could be wrong. In the way I understand it, he is making a distinction between thinking the mantra and any other thought. OK, you don't want to acknowledge the problem. Doesn't really surprise me. You seem to be getting hung up on his terminology. No, it's conceptual, as I noted elsewhere. The point it valid having read his original post in context. As I said before, you guys have completely different agendas here. He is not trying to prove his ability to parrot TM teaching, You say that several times as if someone had suggested he was. I certainly didn't. He was explaining how he believes TM is practiced and what the instructions are, but he got it wrong. If in casual conversation someone who has claimed to be a physician recommends antibiotics to a person who has a cold, you have good reason to suspect their claim is bogus. They aren't trying to prove or parrot anything, they're just saying what they believe to be the case, that a cold is properly treated with antibiotics. he is discussing how it it practiced within the framework of his current understanding. Which is wrong. It may be true of other types of mantra meditation he's familiar with, but it isn't true of TM. The way you are paraphrasing it out of the context of his post seems misleading to how I understood what he was saying. I have taught people who couldn't get it right about not having to pick up the mantra because it seemed like an effort. And you told them to wait for the mantra and to monitor their meditation to make sure that...what?? To keep checking to see if they're thinking thoughts instead of mantra? What *was* he saying, Curtis? You keep saying I'm missing his point, but you never say what you think his point *is*. And although sometimes it might be possible to start meditation and be lost in thoughts the whole time, in my experience of teaching it was more usually due to not understanding how the mantra is used. Quite possibly. All I'm pointing out is that once you've made sure the person *does* understand how the mantra is used, you don't tell him or her to be more attentive. If a train of thought is so compelling that the realization of not entertaining the mantra doesn't occur, it's fine. If you start trying to *watch* what you're thinking, that introduces effort. It takes a little back and forth sometime for people to get the hang of it. So his analysis does not ring false experientially. Hmm, so now we're talking about beginning meditators. Except your big point was that Vaj's perspective had to do with deep inner experience. Make up your mind, please. And remember he has sanskrit words for all these experiences so for him the distinctions are way clear. Oh, good grief, Curtis. You have no idea whether he's even using the Sanskrit terms correctly. He throws them out not to clarify or foster understanding, but to impress people with his vast knowledge, because he knows nobody here is that familiar with arcane Sanskrit terminology. He sure succeeded with you. He's elaborated on this in a number of different posts in ways that make it crystal clear he believes TMers are instructed to wait for the mantra--that's at the beginning of meditation--and to monitor their meditation throughout, as well as
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip The big difference between Barry and I and Vaj is that he has decided to post anonymously. No, that's entirely secondary. You and Barry could post anonymously without your TM teacher credentials ever coming in question. I don't know how far Vaj went with it. Barry and I became poster kids for TM. My saturation was unbelievable with living in TM facilities for about 10 of my 15 year into it. If you became a teacher pre-sidhis, and went to a center somewhere to teach, you might have a lot less of the nuance in your bones. I am more TMy than Barry with my lack of going on to other Gurus and my MIU years. I could probably check someone with about 90% accuracy and give an intro lecture (old school) at almost 100%. Not all teachers went so hog wild for the details of the teaching. I have always felt that your discussions about Vaj on the language of TM were influenced by his allegiance to other systems of meditation where the terminology has shifted his perception of what the TM instructions REALLY mean. Yes, I know, and I understand what you're saying. It's clear that this is the case with much of what Vaj says about TM. But it doesn't explain why he says things like Mindfulness of mantra or 'waiting for the mantra' is a natural and important part of TM. This might be his reevaluation. Long term meditators relate differently to this. I don't really ever have to come back to the mantra at a gross level, it is a more gentle process for my attention. He's elaborated on this in a number of different posts in ways that make it crystal clear he believes TMers are instructed to wait for the mantra--that's at the beginning of meditation--and to monitor their meditation throughout, as well as quoting the checking notes way out of context in an attempt to justify the above. That sounds inaccurate, I agree. He has also indicated he believes the checking procedure routinely involves checking one's mantra *and being corrected if the pronunciation isn't quite right*. That wasn't my experience either. But the loophole here is the term indicated. I would like to hear him speak directly to that point. He may have been goofing on you. I believe he really enjoys your confusion about this. (Assuming I am right.) I don't think you're really interested in looking into this; I think you'd prefer to hold onto your rationalization above. But just say the word, and I'll provide references to the posts I'm referring to. Word! Actually this fascinates me. If in fact Vaj had fooled Barry and I both, who have the most offline contact, I would be delighted to learn I was wrong. Much of my confidence in his past doesn't come from the details of the doctrine, but from his alignment of humor. He notices and takes the same delight any insider takes. If he has faked this then I would really laugh my ass off at myself for being such a fool. Humor is one of my big tests for all sorts of things in people. I trust it. Perhaps too much? I'll give you just one further example: - [Vaj wrote, referring specifically to TM:] If you allow the mantra to begin on it's own, you're picking it up at it's own level. Otherwise you have to introduce the mantra as a discursive thought, starting out at a grosser level. Apparently many people have ***missed this instruction*** and must just introduce the mantra discursively rather than with mindfulness (smriti). [***emphasis added] This goes with my explanation above. It describes my meditation better than a gross coming back to the mantra and seems to be reinforced with his shaping of the instruction from his training in other systems afterwards. He is seeing details that do not exist in the instructions but which experienced meditators come to on their own. It is kind of a subtle point, can't you relate to it? [Vaj quoting me from a previous thread:] He's still wrong, of course; it's not a matter of whether the word waiting is used, it's the concept involved--and the fact that the only *instruction* given for how to begin meditating is to introduce the mantra volitionally (but effortlessly). Not a thing about waiting for it or monitoring it, either in those words or conceptually. Ms. JS, alleged TM meditator. I think we are coming up against limits of language in describing a subtle inner process. You are going literal from the POV of instructions, and he is speaking from his experience influenced by other teachings, looking back on TM. - Vaj is asserting that TMers are instructed to allow the mantra to begin on its own, but that many of them miss this instruction and instead introduce the mantra volitionally (discursively). And of course alleged TM meditator is intended to suggest I don't know what I'm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
On Oct 10, 2011, at 11:56 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: He is anti-Maharishi for deep reasons of commitment to the path as he understands it. Maharishi's fraudulence really bugs him.It is fascinating. That is so different from my own take on Maharishi. I also believe he was a fraud in the tradition (obnoxious air quotes here) but because I don't recognize any tradition (Yup, I actually put my fingers up again) as an expert in the human mind, I don't care as much. I wouldn't say I'm anti-Maharishi, what bugs me is that there is a set of people who are interested in solely perpetuating an air- brushed and false history as fact, and suppressing his actual history. I'd much rather see the truth than fiction, as the truth is often better than fiction. In this case, it's downright hilarious. I'd actually agree with RWC that David Wants to Fly completely vindicates our views on the man, as it simply reveals the truth behind the facade. It's like stepping to the side of a Bollywood set and realizing it was only a front, a facade - then you laugh and laugh at the reality you once believed was so real. Re: Judy's angst. I never would expect Judy to get the spirit of TM when she's merely taken it to heart. 'The meanings of the words are taken as sacred concepts. The letter of the instruction is taken to heart rather than the spirit. To take the teacher's word literally is, for example, to construe reality as something concrete to be attained by striving in technique and method rather than as a door into the reality of the moment. Words and concepts are a means to their own transcendence in the here- and-now. Fascination with structure is a deviation; doctrine professed as 'true' and 'correct' gives Enlightened Consciousness a mask of the ridiculous.' Such people will never understand the real mechanics of transcendence but merely remain trapped with the golden cage of their dearly held concepts.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote: If in fact Vaj had fooled Barry and I both, who have the most offline contact, I would be delighted to learn I was wrong. As would I. I just don't buy it, primarily for the reason Curtis so nails below. Much of my confidence in his past doesn't come from the details of the doctrine... Which any idiot could master and parrot correctly, as exemplified by those claiming he hasn't. :-) ...but from his alignment of humor. He notices and takes the same delight any insider takes. If he has faked this then I would really laugh my ass off at myself for being such a fool. Humor is one of my big tests for all sorts of things in people. I trust it. Perhaps too much? That's really it. The sense of being privy to inside humor is something that in my experience cannot be faked. I had a number of Rajneesh friends in Santa Fe, and we laughed and joked about many experiences we have had that were similar, but there were many times when they all laughed at an inside joke that I never got, as were there times when they didn't get my jokes about either Maharishi or Rama. There was simply a lack of shared experience. I honestly think that this whole vendetta is just that, Yet Another Attempt to portray someone who is critical of TM as a liar. As Curtis pointed out so well in the rest of his post, that is preferable for some people to believe than it is to believe that someone as obviously intelli- gent as Vaj is has rejected most of what he once held to be true, *because they still hold it to be true*. It's an easy out to believe -- or claim, even if one doesn't really believe it -- that he never learned TM or never learned TM 'properly' or was never a TM teacher than it is for them to believe that he did all of those things, and then just decided that much of it (not all, even in Vaj's stated opinions) was bullshit. I think much of it (not all) was bullshit, too. And there is seemingly no question that I have Been There, Done That. If there was, the same tactic would be being used on me. Most other things have. I've been accused of being a tax criminal, a sexual predator, a drunk, a druggie, and was thrown out of the TM movement. As it turns out, I am none of those things. All of these things were made up by people wanting to convince others on this forum to believe them, and thus discredit the things I say. I may be *other* things that these folks find despicable, and revel in them, but none of the things I listed above are true. I don't actually believe that the people who them believe them, either. Similarly, I don't believe that any of them believe what they say about Vaj, either.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
Vag, the TM truther ... I'd much rather see the truth than fiction, as the truth is often better than fiction. In this case, it's downright hilarious. Great thought Vag. Now tell us the truth. The Truth about Vag the Anti-TM'er Many FFL posters, particularly former TM teachers, do not believe that Vag ever learned or practiced the TM/ TM-Sidhi techniques. They also do not believe he ever trained as a TM teacher/initiator. Here is what he refuses to answer: * When and Where he learned the Transcendental Meditation technique of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? (Course dates and location) * When and Where he learned the Transcendental Mediation-Sidhi (TM-Sidhi) techniques of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? (Course dates and location) He claims to have studied/trained with other meditation teachers and gurus, both Indian and Buddhist. He critiques TM and TM-Sidhi practice based upon these supposed teachings and training. Who were these teachers and/or gurus? He can't answer. He claims to have received personal teachings (not general teachings about doctrine) but can not say: * where and when did he receive these personal teachings * what was the declared lineage or sampradaya of these teachers and their teachings Readers are, of course, free to disregard or ignore these questions about Vag. However, please note that he won't even give any credit to his teachers. This is a sign that he is just making it up from books he has read and/or webinars he has attended. In the very traditions he proclaims so boldly, this is considered a form of theft and a way to dishonor his spiritual teacher, his own pledges with his teachers (samaya or words of honor) and the teachers teachings. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Oct 10, 2011, at 11:56 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: He is anti-Maharishi for deep reasons of commitment to the path as he understands it. Maharishi's fraudulence really bugs him.It is fascinating. That is so different from my own take on Maharishi. I also believe he was a fraud in the tradition (obnoxious air quotes here) but because I don't recognize any tradition (Yup, I actually put my fingers up again) as an expert in the human mind, I don't care as much. I wouldn't say I'm anti-Maharishi, what bugs me is that there is a set of people who are interested in solely perpetuating an air- brushed and false history as fact, and suppressing his actual history. I'd much rather see the truth than fiction, as the truth is often better than fiction. In this case, it's downright hilarious. I'd actually agree with RWC that David Wants to Fly completely vindicates our views on the man, as it simply reveals the truth behind the facade. It's like stepping to the side of a Bollywood set and realizing it was only a front, a facade - then you laugh and laugh at the reality you once believed was so real. Re: Judy's angst. I never would expect Judy to get the spirit of TM when she's merely taken it to heart. 'The meanings of the words are taken as sacred concepts. The letter of the instruction is taken to heart rather than the spirit. To take the teacher's word literally is, for example, to construe reality as something concrete to be attained by striving in technique and method rather than as a door into the reality of the moment. Words and concepts are a means to their own transcendence in the here- and-now. Fascination with structure is a deviation; doctrine professed as 'true' and 'correct' gives Enlightened Consciousness a mask of the ridiculous.' Such people will never understand the real mechanics of transcendence but merely remain trapped with the golden cage of their dearly held concepts.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
thx, his Guru is Norbu Rinpoche. Vaj has been on the Rinpoche's retreats, at least one. http://www.startlingart.com/Viewer.asp?ImageSource=fine_artFileName=batjam --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote: Vag, the TM truther ... I'd much rather see the truth than fiction, as the truth is often better than fiction. In this case, it's downright hilarious. Great thought Vag. Now tell us the truth. The Truth about Vag the Anti-TM'er Many FFL posters, particularly former TM teachers, do not believe that Vag ever learned or practiced the TM/ TM-Sidhi techniques. They also do not believe he ever trained as a TM teacher/initiator. Here is what he refuses to answer: * When and Where he learned the Transcendental Meditation technique of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? (Course dates and location) * When and Where he learned the Transcendental Mediation-Sidhi (TM-Sidhi) techniques of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? (Course dates and location) He claims to have studied/trained with other meditation teachers and gurus, both Indian and Buddhist. He critiques TM and TM-Sidhi practice based upon these supposed teachings and training. Who were these teachers and/or gurus? He can't answer. He claims to have received personal teachings (not general teachings about doctrine) but can not say: * where and when did he receive these personal teachings * what was the declared lineage or sampradaya of these teachers and their teachings Readers are, of course, free to disregard or ignore these questions about Vag. However, please note that he won't even give any credit to his teachers. This is a sign that he is just making it up from books he has read and/or webinars he has attended. In the very traditions he proclaims so boldly, this is considered a form of theft and a way to dishonor his spiritual teacher, his own pledges with his teachers (samaya or words of honor) and the teachers teachings. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Oct 10, 2011, at 11:56 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: He is anti-Maharishi for deep reasons of commitment to the path as he understands it. Maharishi's fraudulence really bugs him.It is fascinating. That is so different from my own take on Maharishi. I also believe he was a fraud in the tradition (obnoxious air quotes here) but because I don't recognize any tradition (Yup, I actually put my fingers up again) as an expert in the human mind, I don't care as much. I wouldn't say I'm anti-Maharishi, what bugs me is that there is a set of people who are interested in solely perpetuating an air- brushed and false history as fact, and suppressing his actual history. I'd much rather see the truth than fiction, as the truth is often better than fiction. In this case, it's downright hilarious. I'd actually agree with RWC that David Wants to Fly completely vindicates our views on the man, as it simply reveals the truth behind the facade. It's like stepping to the side of a Bollywood set and realizing it was only a front, a facade - then you laugh and laugh at the reality you once believed was so real. Re: Judy's angst. I never would expect Judy to get the spirit of TM when she's merely taken it to heart. 'The meanings of the words are taken as sacred concepts. The letter of the instruction is taken to heart rather than the spirit. To take the teacher's word literally is, for example, to construe reality as something concrete to be attained by striving in technique and method rather than as a door into the reality of the moment. Words and concepts are a means to their own transcendence in the here- and-now. Fascination with structure is a deviation; doctrine professed as 'true' and 'correct' gives Enlightened Consciousness a mask of the ridiculous.' Such people will never understand the real mechanics of transcendence but merely remain trapped with the golden cage of their dearly held concepts.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip But it doesn't explain why he says things like Mindfulness of mantra or 'waiting for the mantra' is a natural and important part of TM. This might be his reevaluation. Long term meditators relate differently to this. I don't really ever have to come back to the mantra at a gross level, it is a more gentle process for my attention. Same here. The realization that I've been thinking random thoughts rather than mantra is virtually simultaneous with returning to the mantra. IOW, the return to the mantra is automatic. It's almost as if--and may actually be; hard to tell at that subtle level--there is no thought I'm not on the mantra, just a return to it when the train of ordinary thoughts comes to an end. But I think you're missing the point, which is the idea of waiting for the mantra, of monitoring (another word he used) what's happening. Far from being an important part of TM, Mindfulness of mantra or 'waiting for the mantra makes no sense in the context of TM instruction or the TM process itself. And it most certainly is not part of my experience. You know as well as I do that monitoring is strongly discouraged because it introduces effort. He's elaborated on this in a number of different posts in ways that make it crystal clear he believes TMers are instructed to wait for the mantra--that's at the beginning of meditation--and to monitor their meditation throughout, as well as quoting the checking notes way out of context in an attempt to justify the above. That sounds inaccurate, I agree. He has also indicated he believes the checking procedure routinely involves checking one's mantra *and being corrected if the pronunciation isn't quite right*. That wasn't my experience either. But the loophole here is the term indicated. I would like to hear him speak directly to that point. He may have been goofing on you. I believe he really enjoys your confusion about this. (Assuming I am right.) Er, I'm not confused, Curtis. And there's no loophole: One POV worth considering is that since TM does not generally oppose the mantra changing in sound or quality or speed, etc., ones mantra could change and they would not remember the 'original' sound they were given, but the morphed version. I know mine morphed so that I had to be re-told it on checking several times. This was addressed to Lawson, who had responded to someone who was agitated over whether he was pronouncing his mantra correctly by suggesting he get checked. If Vaj was making it up in that last sentence just to get a rise out of folks, I wonder how you rationalize risking anxiety about pronunciation among TMers who read FFL who may not have absorbed that morphing is perfectly OK and even expected in TM (and who might get upset during checking to find that they weren't going to be asked what their mantra was or be re-told it). Same question with regard to all the other misrepresentations Vaj has made of the instructions for TM. I know you and I have different ethical standards, but I'd be interested to know if that applies here. In any case, he was either deliberately misrepresenting what happens during checking, or he's never been checked. I'm guessing it's the latter, because it's such an apparently logical conclusion for someone to draw who hasn't done TM but has heard a lot about it, that what's called the checking procedure would include checking the meditator's mantra. Logical, just wrong. I don't think you're really interested in looking into this; I think you'd prefer to hold onto your rationalization above. But just say the word, and I'll provide references to the posts I'm referring to. Word! Actually this fascinates me. If in fact Vaj had fooled Barry and I both, who have the most offline contact, I would be delighted to learn I was wrong. OK, in a separate post, later today. Much of my confidence in his past doesn't come from the details of the doctrine, but from his alignment of humor. He notices and takes the same delight any insider takes. Boy, that's thin soup, Curtis. It's not difficult to pick up insider humor from current or former insiders, even just by reading FFL. If he has faked this then I would really laugh my ass off at myself for being such a fool. Humor is one of my big tests for all sorts of things in people. I trust it. Perhaps too much? I think so, especially if you put so much weight on it you overlook the kind of thing I've been pointing out. I'll give you just one further example: - [Vaj wrote, referring specifically to TM:] If you allow the mantra to begin on it's own, you're picking it up at it's own level. Otherwise you have to introduce the mantra as a discursive thought, starting out at a grosser level. Apparently many people have ***missed this instruction***
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip Much of my confidence in his past doesn't come from the details of the doctrine... Which any idiot could master and parrot correctly, as exemplified by those claiming he hasn't. :-) Except that it doesn't have anything to do with details of the doctrine. It has to do with whether Vaj knows what the instructions for TM are. Even easier to master and parrot correctly if you've taken TTC or even just checker training. But Vaj can't do it. snip I honestly think that this whole vendetta is just that, Yet Another Attempt to portray someone who is critical of TM as a liar. We know he's a liar, just as we know you're a liar. You're the only two people here who regularly tell lies, and the only two who are regularly accused of being liars, even though FFL is crammed with TM critics. So your whole vendetta notion is nonsense. On the other hand, you've never been accused of lying about your TMer status, even though you lie constantly about other things. Why is that, do you suppose? As Curtis pointed out so well in the rest of his post, that is preferable for some people to believe than it is to believe that someone as obviously intelli- gent as Vaj is has rejected most of what he once held to be true, *because they still hold it to be true*. Bullshit. This isn't about what anybody believes is true. It's about Vaj misstating what the TM instructions say. And we have had plenty of intelligent folks here who've rejected what they once held to be true, but nobody has suggested they were misrepresenting their TM status. It's an easy out to believe -- or claim, even if one doesn't really believe it -- that he never learned TM or never learned TM 'properly' or was never a TM teacher than it is for them to believe that he did all of those things, and then just decided that much of it (not all, even in Vaj's stated opinions) was bullshit. Also bullshit. You and Curtis are never accused of never having learned TM or never having been a TM teacher, and both of you have decided much of what you used to believe is bullshit. Why not? Why is Vaj the only one there are doubts about? I think much of it (not all) was bullshit, too. And there is seemingly no question that I have Been There, Done That. Right. Why is there no question about that? If there was, the same tactic would be being used on me. And rightly so. It isn't a tactic. It would happen to anybody whose posts showed they didn't know what the instructions for TM were, *even if they were bliss- ninny True Believers*. Maybe *especially* if they were TBs. Most other things have. I've been accused of being a tax criminal, a sexual predator, a drunk, a druggie, and was thrown out of the TM movement. As it turns out, I am none of those things. All of these things were made up by people wanting to convince others on this forum to believe them, and thus discredit the things I say. And these things were actually *more credible* than that you were never a TM teacher. Jeez, talk about stepping on your own point! And you don't even realize you've done it. You forgot that it's also been suggested that you're experiencing serious mental deterioration. That's the most credible of all.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: snip Re: Judy's angst. I never would expect Judy to get the spirit of TM when she's merely taken it to heart. 'The meanings of the words are taken as sacred concepts. Wrong. The letter of the instruction is taken to heart rather than the spirit. Wrong again. To take the teacher's word literally is, for example, to construe reality as something concrete to be attained by striving in technique and method rather than as a door into the reality of the moment. And wrong again. Yer out. Like Barry, you're all confused (or deliberately attempting to confuse others) by the difference between Maharishi sez and What Maharishi sez is true. The issue of your TMer status has to do with Maharishi sez, i.e., what the instructions are for TM. You have repeatedly misrepresented the instructions. Has nothing to do with beliefs or interpretation or sacredness or even *efficacy* but rather with what the instructions actually say. Because you keep getting what the instructions say *wrong*, the question arises as to whether you ever learned them. You don't choose to address this issue, which just creates more suspicion.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
So you asked a psychic and that's what they said. Was it worth the $100 for the 1-900 line call? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Yifu yifuxero@... wrote: thx, his Guru is Norbu Rinpoche. Vaj has been on the Rinpoche's retreats, at least one. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: Vag, the TM truther ... I'd much rather see the truth than fiction, as the truth is often better than fiction. In this case, it's downright hilarious. Great thought Vag. Now tell us the truth. The Truth about Vag the Anti-TM'er Many FFL posters, particularly former TM teachers, do not believe that Vag ever learned or practiced the TM/ TM-Sidhi techniques. They also do not believe he ever trained as a TM teacher/initiator. Here is what he refuses to answer: * When and Where he learned the Transcendental Meditation technique of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? (Course dates and location) * When and Where he learned the Transcendental Mediation-Sidhi (TM-Sidhi) techniques of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? (Course dates and location) He claims to have studied/trained with other meditation teachers and gurus, both Indian and Buddhist. He critiques TM and TM-Sidhi practice based upon these supposed teachings and training. Who were these teachers and/or gurus? He can't answer. He claims to have received personal teachings (not general teachings about doctrine) but can not say: * where and when did he receive these personal teachings * what was the declared lineage or sampradaya of these teachers and their teachings Readers are, of course, free to disregard or ignore these questions about Vag. However, please note that he won't even give any credit to his teachers. This is a sign that he is just making it up from books he has read and/or webinars he has attended. In the very traditions he proclaims so boldly, this is considered a form of theft and a way to dishonor his spiritual teacher, his own pledges with his teachers (samaya or words of honor) and the teachers teachings. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Oct 10, 2011, at 11:56 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: He is anti-Maharishi for deep reasons of commitment to the path as he understands it. Maharishi's fraudulence really bugs him.It is fascinating. That is so different from my own take on Maharishi. I also believe he was a fraud in the tradition (obnoxious air quotes here) but because I don't recognize any tradition (Yup, I actually put my fingers up again) as an expert in the human mind, I don't care as much. I wouldn't say I'm anti-Maharishi, what bugs me is that there is a set of people who are interested in solely perpetuating an air- brushed and false history as fact, and suppressing his actual history. I'd much rather see the truth than fiction, as the truth is often better than fiction. In this case, it's downright hilarious. I'd actually agree with RWC that David Wants to Fly completely vindicates our views on the man, as it simply reveals the truth behind the facade. It's like stepping to the side of a Bollywood set and realizing it was only a front, a facade - then you laugh and laugh at the reality you once believed was so real. Re: Judy's angst. I never would expect Judy to get the spirit of TM when she's merely taken it to heart. 'The meanings of the words are taken as sacred concepts. The letter of the instruction is taken to heart rather than the spirit. To take the teacher's word literally is, for example, to construe reality as something concrete to be attained by striving in technique and method rather than as a door into the reality of the moment. Words and concepts are a means to their own transcendence in the here- and-now. Fascination with structure is a deviation; doctrine professed as 'true' and 'correct' gives Enlightened Consciousness a mask of the ridiculous.' Such people will never understand the real mechanics of transcendence but merely remain trapped with the golden cage of their dearly held concepts.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
Curtis-- I think you'll get most of it if you follow the thread that starts with this August 2009 post from Vaj: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/226302 There was an earlier thread in March that more or less began here with a post from you: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/213494 This is the post (in the same thread but further down) in which Raunchy first voiced her doubt that Vaj had ever done TM (and when I then commented to her that Vaj claimed to have been a TM teacher, she was astounded): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/213530 Follow that part of the thread for a few posts. BTW, I just reread a post of Tom's from back then. I'd forgotten that he also suspects Vaj was never a TM teacher, and he's a checker. So that's now five TM teachers, two certified checkers, and one trained but uncertified checker who are on the record. Plus several non-teacher TMers. Of these, only Nabby and Raunchy could be considered full-blown TBs, and Raunchy is a pretty idiosyncratic one. Like me, she's much more offended by misrepresentation than by negative opinions. emptybill, I believe, no longer practices TM. BillyG does but he has no inhibitions about criticizing MMY. do.rkflex (who still practices, I think) is a Guru Dev devotee who doesn't have much use for MMY but who's a stickler for accuracy with regard to instruction in TM (and who would disagree with Raunchy and me if he could figure out an excuse to do so without compromising his own position). Lawson is another idiosyncratic TB who arguably has the clearest understanding of basic TM of anybody here. Tom's a demon practitioner (he should excuse the expression) but has lots of ambivalence and is hardly a TB in other respects. Anyway, finally, a post from me from December 2010, when Vaj brought the same waiting issue up again; my post quotes his extensively (you can track back to find his original in response to a post from emptybill): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/263765 There are other bits and pieces here and there, but this ought to give you a pretty good idea.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, whynotnow7 whynotnow7@... wrote: The rule is that if you can think, you can do TM. So far Vaj hasn't proven that minimum standard, so there is no way he has ever done or taught TM. Seriously, the guy is a poser and is clueless about the practice of TM and the Sidhis. Given his propensity to be a sold out Tibetan style Buddhist and at the same time bash Maharishi and TM relentlessly has me thinking there is something wrong with him that has nothing at all to do with that which he pours his anger into. To paraphrase Tony Bourdain talking about a fellow TV chef, Whenever I think about him, I just thank God that isn't me. Except for the Turq and Curtis, does anyone on this forum believe the lies of the Vaj-fellow anymore ?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote: Except for the Turq and Curtis, does anyone on this forum believe the lies of the Vaj-fellow anymore ? Except for Gladys Knight and the Pips, does anyone on this forum believe the consistent attempts to brand anyone who criticizes Maharishi, the TMO, and TM a liar?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@ wrote: This is probably a joke, isn't it :) The specific exchange here is humorous in context, but the question of whether Vaj ever practiced TM, let alone was a TM teacher, is dead serious. There are at least five former or current TM teachers on FFL who are on the record as being highly dubious that he was ever involved with TM. (Before someone claims this is just an attempt to diminish Vaj's credibility because Vaj is critical of TM, note that nobody has ever expressed the slightest doubt about Barry or Curtis having been TM teachers.) There is no doubt that Barry and Curtis were both TM teachers and govs. Nor has anyone, to my knowledge, ever suggested otherwise, despite the fact that they're so critical of TM. I don't know Vaj's real name, altho in his posts he says he was privy to insider TM stuff at one time. But he is coy about details, where he was - and won't give an answer when asked directly when and where initiated, by whom, did he become a teacher or get siddhis, how long he practiced TM. He's also said a number of things about how TM is purportedly practiced that are flat-out wrong--not just using different vocabulary, but getting facts about TM instruction and checking wrong. That's what led the TM teachers I mentioned to speak up. For example: Mindfulness of mantra or 'waiting for the mantra' is a natural and important part of TM. And with regard to not answering questions about the specifics of his involvement with TM, he said, My attorney recommends I do not discuss my involvement with TM and the TM Org. Uh-huh. The big difference between Barry and I and Vaj is that he has decided to post anonymously. I have always felt that your discussions about Vaj on the language of TM were influenced by his allegiance to other systems of meditation where the terminology has shifted his perception of what the TM instructions REALLY mean. I've got a simple chest labeled meditation in my neurology, his is a complex intersection of a lot of teachings that has shifted how he thinks of TM. Don't you think his obvious joy in busting the apparently goat-like balls of Maharishi is unlikely to be from an outsider with no reason to focus on this one guy out of all the other gurus in the world? Seriously. That seems so improbable. Even his recent interactions with and about Robin speak to his previous involvement in TM at a committed level. To me, Vaj is consistently this guy: He became a teacher under Maharishi and taught TM. He decided that the path was real but the teaching was flawed. Having sought out teachers who seemed to be delivering what he had been seeking but not finding from Maharishi, he said to himself WTF was Maharishi teaching then? His study brought him to the conclusion that Maharishi was a fraud in a system of development which he takes very seriously. So he delights in posting here about what he has learned and his new perspective on Maharishi. I believe he also takes a special delight in this improbable speculation about his past association with TM and in tweaking Judy's ear about it.  This forum is so funny and nuanced at times.  In general, I don't care one way or the other what anyone is or isn't.  It only makes a difference if I am trying to decipher lingo and terminology associated with TM or broader Hindu philosophy; but, I've given up on doing that as I don't have the time right now to learn a new language, or the money to pay for immersing myself in a new practice. From: emptybill emptybill@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 6:06 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit  Somebody explain to Denise that Vag is not and never has been at TM-er. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Somebody explain to Vaj that Denise is not and has never been a TMer...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: Except for the Turq and Curtis, does anyone on this forum believe the lies of the Vaj-fellow anymore ? Except for Gladys Knight and the Pips, does anyone on this forum believe the consistent attempts to brand anyone who criticizes Maharishi, the TMO, and TM a liar? I just love it when Barry goes completely out of control. With a very few exceptions, everyone on this forum has criticized MMY, the TMO, and TM at some point, many of them frequently. Yet almost none of them has ever been accused of being a liar (e.g., wayback, Robin, Mark Landau, Xeno, Alex, Buck, Yifu, Rick, Peter, and many others). Some have been accused by Barry and/or Vaj of being liars, interestingly. In fact, the only critics here who have been consistently branded (and documented) as liars are Barry and Vaj. As I've noted, five current or former TM teachers are on the record as doubting that Vaj was ever a TM teacher: raunchy, billyG, nabby, emptybill, and even the do.rk (who is most definitely *not* one of my Pips). I don't recall offhand whether wayback was a TM teacher, but she seemed to have questions as well in her post yesterday. I'd be willing to bet there are many more who are also dubious but who haven't spoken up because they don't want to be attacked by Barry or Vaj.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote: The big difference between Barry and I and Vaj is that he has decided to post anonymously. I have always felt that your discussions about Vaj on the language of TM were influenced by his allegiance to other systems of meditation where the terminology has shifted his perception of what the TM instructions REALLY mean. I've got a simple chest labeled meditation in my neurology, his is a complex intersection of a lot of teachings that has shifted how he thinks of TM. Since the professional hater has chosen to beat this dead horse again, I'll check in as well. My assessment of Vaj and his use of terminology agrees with yours. After all I've learned along the Way since leaving the TMO, the language I'd use to describe it and its mechanics certainly agrees more with Vaj's than it does Maharishi's. That doesn't mean that I don't remember the bullshit that Maharishi taught us to parrot, only that I reject it as the bullshit it was. That -- using incorrect language -- is the thing that the professional haters are glomming onto, with IMO only one purpose in mind -- to demonize Vaj and other TM critics and try to diminish their credibility in the eyes of a largely imaginary audience of TBs such as themselves. The very irony of people who were themselves so lazy and so non-involved that they not only never become TM teachers themselves, they never even tried to *meet* Maharishi in person then questioning someone's use or misuse of the official parroted TM-speak is lost on the haters. *They* believed everything they were told, and parrot it as if it were the Word Of God. *They* are such TBs that they cling desperately to the exact wording of the bullshit they were told. What a bunch of losers, afraid to ever describe things in their own words. One can only pity their attempts to deride someone with more creativity of expression than themselves. To me, Vaj is consistently this guy: He became a teacher under Maharishi and taught TM. He decided that the path was real but the teaching was flawed. Having sought out teachers who seemed to be delivering what he had been seeking but not finding from Maharishi, he said to himself WTF was Maharishi teaching then? His study brought him to the conclusion that Maharishi was a fraud in a system of development which he takes very seriously. So he delights in posting here about what he has learned and his new perspective on Maharishi. I believe he also takes a special delight in this improbable speculation about his past association with TM and in tweaking Judy's ear about it. Never having met Vaj except here, that description matches my assessment of him as well. Especially the last part. :-) Judy, in addition to being a professional hater, seems to be a professional victim, *always* willing to fall for any troll thrown out in her path. Vaj delights in throwing out such trollbait. As do I. She's such a TB that she *has* to fall for each troll, and overreact to each legitimate criticism by ignoring the criticism itself and concentrating instead on trying to kill the messenger. If your assessment of Vaj's delight in tweaking Judy above is correct, I certainly add myself to the list of people who share that delight. She's just so *predictable*. :-) So some of us have fun with that by taunting her into making our case for us. I suspect that's what Vaj is up to, and I for one don't blame him for doing it. Saying stuff and expecting other people to believe it just because you said it is a loser's game. Winners in this particular game just state clearly what the TBs are most likely to do when prodded, then prod them, and then sit back and watch them do exactly what was predicted. Willytex tries to do this, and is bad at it. Vaj is good at it. That's why he's such a target for the professional haters. Just my opinion...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote: snip The big difference between Barry and I and Vaj is that he has decided to post anonymously. No, that's entirely secondary. You and Barry could post anonymously without your TM teacher credentials ever coming in question. I have always felt that your discussions about Vaj on the language of TM were influenced by his allegiance to other systems of meditation where the terminology has shifted his perception of what the TM instructions REALLY mean. Yes, I know, and I understand what you're saying. It's clear that this is the case with much of what Vaj says about TM. But it doesn't explain why he says things like Mindfulness of mantra or 'waiting for the mantra' is a natural and important part of TM. He's elaborated on this in a number of different posts in ways that make it crystal clear he believes TMers are instructed to wait for the mantra--that's at the beginning of meditation--and to monitor their meditation throughout, as well as quoting the checking notes way out of context in an attempt to justify the above. He has also indicated he believes the checking procedure routinely involves checking one's mantra *and being corrected if the pronunciation isn't quite right*. I don't think you're really interested in looking into this; I think you'd prefer to hold onto your rationalization above. But just say the word, and I'll provide references to the posts I'm referring to. I'll give you just one further example: - [Vaj wrote, referring specifically to TM:] If you allow the mantra to begin on it's own, you're picking it up at it's own level. Otherwise you have to introduce the mantra as a discursive thought, starting out at a grosser level. Apparently many people have ***missed this instruction*** and must just introduce the mantra discursively rather than with mindfulness (smriti). [***emphasis added] [Vaj quoting me from a previous thread:] He's still wrong, of course; it's not a matter of whether the word waiting is used, it's the concept involved--and the fact that the only *instruction* given for how to begin meditating is to introduce the mantra volitionally (but effortlessly). Not a thing about waiting for it or monitoring it, either in those words or conceptually. Ms. JS, alleged TM meditator. - Vaj is asserting that TMers are instructed to allow the mantra to begin on its own, but that many of them miss this instruction and instead introduce the mantra volitionally (discursively). And of course alleged TM meditator is intended to suggest I don't know what I'm talking about. When challenged on this, he doubled down. Note that point #7, which tells the meditator it's OK if the mantra starts on its own, is used in checking *only if the meditator interrupts the regular procedure to mention that this has happened*. It isn't an instruction, just a reassurance. Finally, it isn't just me who's dubious. As I've noted, five former or current TM teachers here are on the record as doubting that Vaj was ever a TM teacher, as well as Lawson, who took checker training (as did I, although I was never certified), all of them on the basis of Vaj's remarks about TM instruction: raunchy, billyG, emptybill, nabby, and do.rkflex. snip Don't you think his obvious joy in busting the apparently goat-like balls of Maharishi is unlikely to be from an outsider with no reason to focus on this one guy out of all the other gurus in the world? Not really. Just for instance, he may have a family member or close friend who he believes was harmed by TM (that could account for his knowledge of some insider aspects of TM as well as his serious misunderstandings of TM instruction and practice). And just in general, I've encountered numerous anticult activists who were never themselves involved in any of the groups they criticized (including TM--there were quite a few of them on alt.m.t back in the day). Further, how do you know that MMY is the only guru he demonizes? He could be active on any number of other forums using different handles. Seriously. That seems so improbable. Even his recent interactions with and about Robin speak to his previous involvement in TM at a committed level. As noted, he definitely has some insider knowledge, but he could have various sources for that without ever himself having been involved. Not difficult to fake, unlike a TM teacher's knowledge of how TM is taught and practiced. Robin was deeply suspicious of Vaj's TMer status even after Vaj told Robin he'd spent Guru Purnima one year doing the puja with him at one of Robin's seminars. Robin's doubt was a matter of intuition rather than examination of Vaj's statements about TM instruction, however. (See post 289685.)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: snip That -- using incorrect language -- is the thing that the professional haters are glomming onto, with IMO only one purpose in mind -- to demonize Vaj and other TM critics and try to diminish their credibility in the eyes of a largely imaginary audience of TBs such as themselves. Barry, you don't have a clue what the argument about Vaj's TMer status is based on. It isn't incorrect language. If you actually wanted to deal with it, I'd tell you to read what I just posted to Curtis to inform yourself, but of course all you really want to do is dump on me. The very irony of people who were themselves so lazy and so non-involved that they not only never become TM teachers themselves, they never even tried to *meet* Maharishi in person Actually I did try to meet him in person, as you've been told any number of times. then questioning someone's use or misuse of the official parroted TM-speak is lost on the haters. *They* believed everything they were told, and parrot it as if it were the Word Of God. *They* are such TBs that they cling desperately to the exact wording of the bullshit they were told. No, you're getting MMY said confused again with What MMY said is true. Don't embarrass yourself more than you already have in the past couple of days. I suggest you just stay out of this one.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: snip Judy, in addition to being a professional hater, seems to be a professional victim, *always* willing to fall for any troll thrown out in her path. Vaj delights in throwing out such trollbait. As do I. snip Saying stuff and expecting other people to believe it just because you said it is a loser's game. Exactly. You lose. ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 5:24 PM, authfriend jst...@panix.com wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: snip Judy, in addition to being a professional hater, About how much can a person make as a professional hater? Is it a full time thing or could I fit it in part time? On site, door to door or telecommute? Is there travel involved?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pall thomas.pall@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: snip Judy, in addition to being a professional hater, About how much can a person make as a professional hater? Actually, I do it out of the goodness of my heart. ;-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pall thomas.pall@... wrote: About how much can a person make as a professional hater? 28 posts in one day. Oh. You meant money. Never mind. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@... wrote: This is probably a joke, isn't it :) The specific exchange here is humorous in context, but the question of whether Vaj ever practiced TM, let alone was a TM teacher, is dead serious. There are at least five former or current TM teachers on FFL who are on the record as being highly dubious that he was ever involved with TM. (Before someone claims this is just an attempt to diminish Vaj's credibility because Vaj is critical of TM, note that nobody has ever expressed the slightest doubt about Barry or Curtis having been TM teachers.)  This forum is so funny and nuanced at times.  In general, I don't care one way or the other what anyone is or isn't.  It only makes a difference if I am trying to decipher lingo and terminology associated with TM or broader Hindu philosophy; but, I've given up on doing that as I don't have the time right now to learn a new language, or the money to pay for immersing myself in a new practice. From: emptybill emptybill@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 6:06 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit  Somebody explain to Denise that Vag is not and never has been at TM-er. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Somebody explain to Vaj that Denise is not and has never been a TMer...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@ wrote: This is probably a joke, isn't it :) The specific exchange here is humorous in context, but the question of whether Vaj ever practiced TM, let alone was a TM teacher, is dead serious. There are at least five former or current TM teachers on FFL who are on the record as being highly dubious that he was ever involved with TM. (Before someone claims this is just an attempt to diminish Vaj's credibility because Vaj is critical of TM, note that nobody has ever expressed the slightest doubt about Barry or Curtis having been TM teachers.) There is no doubt that Barry and Curtis were both TM teachers and govs. I don't know Vaj's real name, altho in his posts he says he was privy to insider TM stuff at one time. But he is coy about details, where he was - and won't give an answer when asked directly when and where initiated, by whom, did he become a teacher or get siddhis, how long he practiced TM.  This forum is so funny and nuanced at times.  In general, I don't care one way or the other what anyone is or isn't.  It only makes a difference if I am trying to decipher lingo and terminology associated with TM or broader Hindu philosophy; but, I've given up on doing that as I don't have the time right now to learn a new language, or the money to pay for immersing myself in a new practice. From: emptybill emptybill@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 6:06 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit  Somebody explain to Denise that Vag is not and never has been at TM-er. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Somebody explain to Vaj that Denise is not and has never been a TMer...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
The rule is that if you can think, you can do TM. So far Vaj hasn't proven that minimum standard, so there is no way he has ever done or taught TM. Seriously, the guy is a poser and is clueless about the practice of TM and the Sidhis. Given his propensity to be a sold out Tibetan style Buddhist and at the same time bash Maharishi and TM relentlessly has me thinking there is something wrong with him that has nothing at all to do with that which he pours his anger into. To paraphrase Tony Bourdain talking about a fellow TV chef, Whenever I think about him, I just thank God that isn't me. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@ wrote: This is probably a joke, isn't it :) The specific exchange here is humorous in context, but the question of whether Vaj ever practiced TM, let alone was a TM teacher, is dead serious. There are at least five former or current TM teachers on FFL who are on the record as being highly dubious that he was ever involved with TM. (Before someone claims this is just an attempt to diminish Vaj's credibility because Vaj is critical of TM, note that nobody has ever expressed the slightest doubt about Barry or Curtis having been TM teachers.) There is no doubt that Barry and Curtis were both TM teachers and govs. I don't know Vaj's real name, altho in his posts he says he was privy to insider TM stuff at one time. But he is coy about details, where he was - and won't give an answer when asked directly when and where initiated, by whom, did he become a teacher or get siddhis, how long he practiced TM.  This forum is so funny and nuanced at times.  In general, I don't care one way or the other what anyone is or isn't.  It only makes a difference if I am trying to decipher lingo and terminology associated with TM or broader Hindu philosophy; but, I've given up on doing that as I don't have the time right now to learn a new language, or the money to pay for immersing myself in a new practice. From: emptybill emptybill@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 6:06 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit  Somebody explain to Denise that Vag is not and never has been at TM-er. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Somebody explain to Vaj that Denise is not and has never been a TMer...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@ wrote: This is probably a joke, isn't it :) The specific exchange here is humorous in context, but the question of whether Vaj ever practiced TM, let alone was a TM teacher, is dead serious. There are at least five former or current TM teachers on FFL who are on the record as being highly dubious that he was ever involved with TM. (Before someone claims this is just an attempt to diminish Vaj's credibility because Vaj is critical of TM, note that nobody has ever expressed the slightest doubt about Barry or Curtis having been TM teachers.) There is no doubt that Barry and Curtis were both TM teachers and govs. Nor has anyone, to my knowledge, ever suggested otherwise, despite the fact that they're so critical of TM. I don't know Vaj's real name, altho in his posts he says he was privy to insider TM stuff at one time. But he is coy about details, where he was - and won't give an answer when asked directly when and where initiated, by whom, did he become a teacher or get siddhis, how long he practiced TM. He's also said a number of things about how TM is purportedly practiced that are flat-out wrong--not just using different vocabulary, but getting facts about TM instruction and checking wrong. That's what led the TM teachers I mentioned to speak up. For example: Mindfulness of mantra or 'waiting for the mantra' is a natural and important part of TM. And with regard to not answering questions about the specifics of his involvement with TM, he said, My attorney recommends I do not discuss my involvement with TM and the TM Org. Uh-huh.  This forum is so funny and nuanced at times.  In general, I don't care one way or the other what anyone is or isn't.  It only makes a difference if I am trying to decipher lingo and terminology associated with TM or broader Hindu philosophy; but, I've given up on doing that as I don't have the time right now to learn a new language, or the money to pay for immersing myself in a new practice. From: emptybill emptybill@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 6:06 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit  Somebody explain to Denise that Vag is not and never has been at TM-er. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Somebody explain to Vaj that Denise is not and has never been a TMer...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
This is probably a joke, isn't it :) This forum is so funny and nuanced at times. In general, I don't care one way or the other what anyone is or isn't. It only makes a difference if I am trying to decipher lingo and terminology associated with TM or broader Hindu philosophy; but, I've given up on doing that as I don't have the time right now to learn a new language, or the money to pay for immersing myself in a new practice. From: emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 6:06 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit Somebody explain to Denise that Vag is not and never has been at TM-er. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: Somebody explain to Vaj that Denise is not and has never been a TMer...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
The unseen mass of the lie, as indicated by the elipses, attached to six expressed thoughts, each preceded by as, whirling about the unseen nucleus of the lie, bound by its gravitational force; in bondage to it. Poetry in motion...this statement is equally applicable to many of the indecipherable and disconnected surreal artistic postingsit all comes full circle. From: whynotnow7 whynotn...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 7:52 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit Yep, holding onto that lie about doing/teaching TM really spins Vaj's mind, as he demonstrates below. The quantum physics of the gravity of a lie, expressed verbally. The unseen mass of the lie, as indicated by the elipses, attached to six expressed thoughts, each preceded by as, whirling about the unseen nucleus of the lie, bound by its gravitational force; in bondage to it. Very impressive, Vaj. A very succinct expression of your character. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Oct 4, 2011, at 9:06 PM, emptybill wrote: Somebody explain to Denise that Vag is not and never has been at TM-er. Someone explain to emptybill that he's burned his brain cells out as a neo-Nazi…and as a TM teacher and as an Orthodox Christian…and as as a student of the latest teacher to come thru Kansas City…and as… (the latest thang in town)…and as someone with the karma of being from the bible belt…and…
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
to Denise: You mention not having $ for new programs (I take it...as in TM). No problema...; you can start gaining benefits from chanting mantras. Start with 10 minutes per day, doing it for 30 days and record any changes. Repeat if necessary if there's a payoff. No reading of Hindoo Scriptures required. That's it...do it. ... http://www.startlingart.com/Viewer.asp?ImageSource=fine_artFileName=Night_Shift-Pnting72res ... On indecipherable but very nice poetry, etc; from whatever source, you're not supposed to understand it. That's the point. It crashes your mind, leaving the peace of Nothingness. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@... wrote: The unseen mass of the lie, as indicated by the elipses, attached to six expressed thoughts, each preceded by as, whirling about the unseen nucleus of the lie, bound by its gravitational force; in bondage to it. Poetry in motion...this statement is equally applicable to many of the indecipherable and disconnected surreal artistic postingsit all comes full circle. From: whynotnow7 whynotnow7@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 7:52 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit  Yep, holding onto that lie about doing/teaching TM really spins Vaj's mind, as he demonstrates below. The quantum physics of the gravity of a lie, expressed verbally. The unseen mass of the lie, as indicated by the elipses, attached to six expressed thoughts, each preceded by as, whirling about the unseen nucleus of the lie, bound by its gravitational force; in bondage to it. Very impressive, Vaj. A very succinct expression of your character. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Oct 4, 2011, at 9:06 PM, emptybill wrote: Somebody explain to Denise that Vag is not and never has been at TM-er. Someone explain to emptybill that he's burned his brain cells out as a neo-Naziâ¦and as a TM teacher and as an Orthodox Christianâ¦and as as a student of the latest teacher to come thru Kansas Cityâ¦and as⦠(the latest thang in town)â¦and as someone with the karma of being from the bible beltâ¦andâ¦
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
Thank you. From: Susan waybac...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 5:15 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@... wrote: Sorry, this is probably the email I should have responded to.  No, I know nothing of rounding except that I am rounder than I was...due in large part to a year and a half of Zoloft, I am finding out.  It was a mitigated disaster in the end.  I am rounding out my self care with cranial sacral work, a naturopath, exercise, cooking, school, etc.lots of check ups, none of which are working to reboot myself.  I am very good at defining what or who I am not, and have no idea what or who I am.  I hate self-help books but am about to capitulate and read Byron Katie. Today, I am deeply depressed and have decided to return to medication...Wellbutrin this time.  Signing off for awhile. Hey Denise, I always enjoy your common sense and level head and of course it helps that I agree with your political views 100%. For depression there is always Vitamin D, aerobics, yoga postures that open the chest and arch the back, and getting your thyroid checked (a must). Ayurvedic panchakarma helped me years ago, but costs a good deal. Yoga is like a drug for me - But I am guessing you have tried loads of remedies. And sometimes depression just requires medicine. I see nothing at all wrong with medication if it helps your system get back to better functioning and you feel better. Let me know what you think of Byron Katie - And take care. From: Vaj vajradhatu@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Age-Activated Attention Deficit  If you were an excessive rounder, maybe it was the cause? One of the many side-effects of the dogma of effortlessness? On Oct 4, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Denise Evans wrote: In case you want a glimpse into what it’s like to be me and I'm not even 50 yet :)  Will meditation turn this around? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oHBG3ABUJUÂ
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
Somebody explain to Vaj that Denise is not and has never been a TMer... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: If you were an excessive rounder, maybe it was the cause? One of the many side-effects of the dogma of effortlessness? On Oct 4, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Denise Evans wrote: In case you want a glimpse into what it's like to be me and I'm not even 50 yet :) Will meditation turn this around? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oHBG3ABUJU
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
For the record, I am not a TM'er and have never been. I am intrigued by what I read on the technique's positive effects, however, I have a problem with reconciling what the message is with a variety of other things. I have never followed a guru and at this point, won't be in the near future. I am not Hindu. I am interested in knowing the TM technique as I feel able to separate the message from the messenger, but will not pay for it. If the intention of TM and the organization is as altruistic as it purports to be than make it accessible to the masses and bring the message into consistency with true spiritual goals. From: authfriend jst...@panix.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 4:09 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit Somebody explain to Vaj that Denise is not and has never been a TMer... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: If you were an excessive rounder, maybe it was the cause? One of the many side-effects of the dogma of effortlessness? On Oct 4, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Denise Evans wrote: In case you want a glimpse into what it's like to be me and I'm not even 50 yet :) Will meditation turn this around? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oHBG3ABUJU
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
On Oct 4, 2011, at 7:20 PM, Denise Evans wrote: For the record, I am not a TM'er and have never been. I am intrigued by what I read on the technique's positive effects, however, I have a problem with reconciling what the message is with a variety of other things. I have never followed a guru and at this point, won't be in the near future. I am not Hindu. I am interested in knowing the TM technique as I feel able to separate the message from the messenger, but will not pay for it. If the intention of TM and the organization is as altruistic as it purports to be than make it accessible to the masses and bring the message into consistency with true spiritual goals. My apologies then. At least your nervous system has been warned. ;-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@... wrote: Sorry, this is probably the email I should have responded to.  No, I know nothing of rounding except that I am rounder than I was...due in large part to a year and a half of Zoloft, I am finding out.  It was a mitigated disaster in the end.  I am rounding out my self care with cranial sacral work, a naturopath, exercise, cooking, school, etc.lots of check ups, none of which are working to reboot myself.  I am very good at defining what or who I am not, and have no idea what or who I am.  I hate self-help books but am about to capitulate and read Byron Katie. Today, I am deeply depressed and have decided to return to medication...Wellbutrin this time.  Signing off for awhile. Hey Denise, I always enjoy your common sense and level head and of course it helps that I agree with your political views 100%. For depression there is always Vitamin D, aerobics, yoga postures that open the chest and arch the back, and getting your thyroid checked (a must). Ayurvedic panchakarma helped me years ago, but costs a good deal. Yoga is like a drug for me - But I am guessing you have tried loads of remedies. And sometimes depression just requires medicine. I see nothing at all wrong with medication if it helps your system get back to better functioning and you feel better. Let me know what you think of Byron Katie - And take care. From: Vaj vajradhatu@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Age-Activated Attention Deficit  If you were an excessive rounder, maybe it was the cause? One of the many side-effects of the dogma of effortlessness? On Oct 4, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Denise Evans wrote: In case you want a glimpse into what itâs like to be me and I'm not even 50 yet :)  Will meditation turn this around? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oHBG3ABUJUÂ
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
Oh Judy please stop pestering the poor bastard Vaj with facts, his only way to cope up with his cruel, unforgiving, stressful world is to assume everyone's a TM'er. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: Somebody explain to Vaj that Denise is not and has never been a TMer... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: If you were an excessive rounder, maybe it was the cause? One of the many side-effects of the dogma of effortlessness? On Oct 4, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Denise Evans wrote: In case you want a glimpse into what it's like to be me and I'm not even 50 yet :) Will meditation turn this around? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oHBG3ABUJU
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@... wrote: Oh Judy please stop pestering the poor bastard Vaj with facts, his only way to cope up with his cruel, unforgiving, stressful world is to assume everyone's a TM'er. Hey, Ravi. How's L.A.? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Somebody explain to Vaj that Denise is not and has never been a TMer... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: If you were an excessive rounder, maybe it was the cause? One of the many side-effects of the dogma of effortlessness? On Oct 4, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Denise Evans wrote: In case you want a glimpse into what it's like to be me and I'm not even 50 yet :) Will meditation turn this around? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oHBG3ABUJU
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ wrote: Oh Judy please stop pestering the poor bastard Vaj with facts, his only way to cope up with his cruel, unforgiving, stressful world is to assume everyone's a TM'er. Hey, Ravi. How's L.A.? Hi Judy - thanks for asking - it's beautiful. A real city and love the incredible contrasts it provides. Haven't felt like participating here much since moving though :-(, looking to dumbaz to provide me some inspiration. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Somebody explain to Vaj that Denise is not and has never been a TMer... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: If you were an excessive rounder, maybe it was the cause? One of the many side-effects of the dogma of effortlessness? On Oct 4, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Denise Evans wrote: In case you want a glimpse into what it's like to be me and I'm not even 50 yet :) Will meditation turn this around? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oHBG3ABUJU
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
Somebody explain to Denise that Vag is not and never has been at TM-er. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: Somebody explain to Vaj that Denise is not and has never been a TMer...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote: Somebody explain to Denise that Vag is not and never has been at TM-er. LOL. That too. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Somebody explain to Vaj that Denise is not and has never been a TMer...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
On Oct 4, 2011, at 9:06 PM, emptybill wrote: Somebody explain to Denise that Vag is not and never has been at TM-er. Someone explain to emptybill that he's burned his brain cells out as a neo-Nazi…and as a TM teacher and as an Orthodox Christian…and as as a student of the latest teacher to come thru Kansas City…and as… (the latest thang in town)…and as someone with the karma of being from the bible belt…and…
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
http://s3.amazonaws.com/findagrave/photos/2001/222/rommelerwinbio.jpg --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Oct 4, 2011, at 9:06 PM, emptybill wrote: Somebody explain to Denise that Vag is not and never has been at TM-er. Someone explain to emptybill that he's burned his brain cells out as a neo-Nazi and as a TM teacher and as an Orthodox Christian and as as a student of the latest teacher to come thru Kansas City and as (the latest thang in town) and as someone with the karma of being from the bible belt and
[FairfieldLife] Re: Age-Activated Attention Deficit
Yep, holding onto that lie about doing/teaching TM really spins Vaj's mind, as he demonstrates below. The quantum physics of the gravity of a lie, expressed verbally. The unseen mass of the lie, as indicated by the elipses, attached to six expressed thoughts, each preceded by as, whirling about the unseen nucleus of the lie, bound by its gravitational force; in bondage to it. Very impressive, Vaj. A very succinct expression of your character. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Oct 4, 2011, at 9:06 PM, emptybill wrote: Somebody explain to Denise that Vag is not and never has been at TM-er. Someone explain to emptybill that he's burned his brain cells out as a neo-Nazi and as a TM teacher and as an Orthodox Christian and as as a student of the latest teacher to come thru Kansas City and as (the latest thang in town) and as someone with the karma of being from the bible belt and
