[FairfieldLife] Re: Enlightenment as moodmaking?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sinhlnx sinhlnx@ wrote: ---Consider an apartment as a type of cage. Could a person only think the apartment is real, but really be living inside Mae West's head? http://www.planetperplex.com/en/item203 Or, Jim, you were fortunate in realizing you were in a cage. So I guess the people living in the cage but don't know it are in ignorant Bliss?kind of like the people living in the Matrix world while the aliens are sucking out the juices from their real bodies. Or perhaps Jim is living locked in the cage of Enlightenment World -- perhaps not knowing he is caged, all the while thinking he is boundlessly free. Or, having made the mistake of announcing that he is realized/enlightened, now he's stuck in the cage of pretending that he is. I guess that's the same thing you mean by enlightenment world. I can't say fersure, of course, but it's certainly a possibility. I've seen the same phenomenon before in many different spiritual trips. Someone has a neat experience of realization -- a *real* experience of realization -- and, because they assume that once they have such an experience it will be permanent, they announce to the world their enlightenment. Some of them even set themselves up as spiritual teachers or gurus at this point. And then the experience fades. What's a guru to do? An honest one would go to his students and say, Oops, I was wrong. One who was a little less honest, espec- ially with himself, would pretend that the experience of realization was still going on. An even less honest one would indulge in self deception, and convince him- self that it was still going on. Once you've had a couple of these realization exper- iences, it's pretty easy to talk the talk of them. Few can tell whether you're talkin' from present exper- ience or past experience, because you *are* talkin' from experience. So it's actually a fairly common phenomenon in the larger community of spiritual trips and seekers to see people milking a transitory exper- ience of realization for years or decades after it has gone away or faded. Not to say that's what's going on here on FFL, but it could be. Because such things *aren't* talked about much in the TMO, but are known about and talked about openly in other spiritual trips, I just thought I'd bring up the possibility. Just to clarify, what I am talking about above is a spirituality-wide phenomenon, one *not* limited to TM and the TMO. For the record, however, there are a couple of aspects of this phenomenon that I have noticed are stronger in the TMO. The first is the willingness of the larger commun- ity of seekers to *perpetuate* the phenomenon of people moodmaking their enlightenment and allow it to go on. IMO, this is because in the TMO, relatively few people (maybe a few hundred out of what, millions?) have ever *had* strong realization experiences. *And* they've paid a great deal, both in terms of time and money, *to* have such an experience. So when someone announces that they've had one, or have realized their enlightenment, there is a tendency to suspend disbelief and allow them to do it out of hopes that, If it can happen for him/her, it could still happen for me. The second aspect of this phenomenon that I see as fairly unique within the TM movement variant of it is that the hierarchical oneupsmanship *continues* in those who have announced their enlightenment. In the TMO, with its rigid, hierarchical conceptual framework of seven states of consciousness, it's not *enough* to just realize one's enlightenment. No. :-) Once one has announced that one is real- ized (CC), there are still GC and UC and BC to announce. And now there are all the siddhis and other perceptions to announce as well. It's like the moment Maharishi talks about a new state of consciousness or a new type of subtle perception, there are realized souls lining up to announce that they've just reached that state of consciousness or had that perception. What's funniest for those of us who have seen this phenomenon in other spiritual traditions is to watch the enlightened dick size contests. They go some- thing like the following imaginary dialog between two TM-realized souls: Yeah, that's a pretty good realization experience you just talked about. Thanks for sharing it. I used to have those experiences, too, back before my own realization began to open up into God consciousness. Oh, I didn't mean to imply that the experience I was talking about was *limited* to only CC; it has continued for me, even after I started experiencing GC. In fact, I still have these experiences now that I'm living in UC. Yes, I agree. Even from the standpoint of Brahman it is possible to have such experiences. I know
[FairfieldLife] Re: Enlightenment as moodmaking?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sinhlnx sinhlnx@ wrote: ---Consider an apartment as a type of cage. Could a person only think the apartment is real, but really be living inside Mae West's head? http://www.planetperplex.com/en/item203 Or, Jim, you were fortunate in realizing you were in a cage. So I guess the people living in the cage but don't know it are in ignorant Bliss?kind of like the people living in the Matrix world while the aliens are sucking out the juices from their real bodies. Or perhaps Jim is living locked in the cage of Enlightenment World -- perhaps not knowing he is caged, all the while thinking he is boundlessly free. Or, having made the mistake of announcing that he is realized/enlightened, now he's stuck in the cage of pretending that he is. I guess that's the same thing you mean by enlightenment world. I can't say fersure, of course, but it's certainly a possibility. I've seen the same phenomenon before in many different spiritual trips. Someone has a neat experience of realization -- a *real* experience of realization -- and, because they assume that once they have such an experience it will be permanent, they announce to the world their enlightenment. Some of them even set themselves up as spiritual teachers or gurus at this point. And then the experience fades. What's a guru to do? An honest one would go to his students and say, Oops, I was wrong. One who was a little less honest, espec- ially with himself, would pretend that the experience of realization was still going on. An even less honest one would indulge in self deception, and convince him- self that it was still going on. Once you've had a couple of these realization exper- iences, it's pretty easy to talk the talk of them. Few can tell whether you're talkin' from present exper- ience or past experience, because you *are* talkin' from experience. So it's actually a fairly common phenomenon in the larger community of spiritual trips and seekers to see people milking a transitory exper- ience of realization for years or decades after it has gone away or faded. Not to say that's what's going on here on FFL, but it could be. Because such things *aren't* talked about much in the TMO, but are known about and talked about openly in other spiritual trips, I just thought I'd bring up the possibility. This experience of transitory enlightenment is actually quite a good one to have, for several reasons. First, while it is occurring, it feels great; a blissful vacation from ourselves. The experiences we have during that time move us ahead in terms of being unlike what we've experienced before. Next, as the experience fades, it leaves behind a strong impression of that which is very desirable for us, spurring us forward in our quest for eternal freedom. Finally, the more we milk it as you say (for years??? I find that hard to believe, though I used to try to hold on for a couple of days afterwards...), the more our ego goes through an adjustment afterwards, realizing its limits, and hopefully helping us to become more humble in the process (lol). I look at those experiences of transitory enlightenment in hindsight as advertisements for and by the Divine-- flashy, desirable, and brief.:-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Enlightenment as moodmaking?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The bottom line from my point of view is that there is simply No Way to tell whether someone is bullshitting you (and often themselves) about their supposed enlight- enment or not. So you believe whatever you want, and whatever makes you happy. not to be too cryptic about it, but try listening beyond your hearing. Its a quick and easy way to suss out the bullshitters.:-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Enlightenment as moodmaking?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: The bottom line from my point of view is that there is simply No Way to tell whether someone is bullshitting you (and often themselves) about their supposed enlight- enment or not. So you believe whatever you want, and whatever makes you happy. not to be too cryptic about it, but try listening beyond your hearing. Its a quick and easy way to suss out the bullshitters.:-) If I'd done that, you would definitely have been in the bullshitter's group. I think it's far more compassionate and charitable to just say, No Way to tell. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Enlightenment as moodmaking?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: The bottom line from my point of view is that there is simply No Way to tell whether someone is bullshitting you (and often themselves) about their supposed enlight- enment or not. So you believe whatever you want, and whatever makes you happy. not to be too cryptic about it, but try listening beyond your hearing. Its a quick and easy way to suss out the bullshitters.:-) If I'd done that, you would definitely have been in the bullshitter's group. I think it's far more compassionate and charitable to just say, No Way to tell. :-) Get real. I don't want your compassion to determine whether or not you think I am enlightened or BSing. What a rediculous notion. Think whatever you want. This is an absurd conversation at this point; compassion- what a joke.:-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Enlightenment as moodmaking?
On Jul 25, 2007, at 4:26 PM, Peter wrote: I officially declare that Jim is enlightened and is the envy of the entire host of celestial gods. I will declare anyone else to be enlightened too if they like. Also Risk Archer is enlightened because he's my initiator. Micheal Dean Goodman is also enlightened because I drum with him and went to his house last Saturday night. Dr. Pete, maybe next time you see him you could mention that his house in FF is on the verge of being condemned, and several of his neighbors are seriously ticked that he's let things get to the point they have. Apparently he's been ignoring letters from the city to take care of his property for years now. Curtis is enlightened because I went to MIU with him.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Enlightenment as moodmaking?
I officially declare that Jim is enlightened and is the envy of the entire host of celestial gods. I will declare anyone else to be enlightened too if they like. Also Risk Archer is enlightened because he's my initiator. Micheal Dean Goodman is also enlightened because I drum with him and went to his house last Saturday night. Curtis is enlightened because I went to MIU with him. --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: The bottom line from my point of view is that there is simply No Way to tell whether someone is bullshitting you (and often themselves) about their supposed enlight- enment or not. So you believe whatever you want, and whatever makes you happy. not to be too cryptic about it, but try listening beyond your hearing. Its a quick and easy way to suss out the bullshitters.:-) If I'd done that, you would definitely have been in the bullshitter's group. I think it's far more compassionate and charitable to just say, No Way to tell. :-) Get real. I don't want your compassion to determine whether or not you think I am enlightened or BSing. What a rediculous notion. Think whatever you want. This is an absurd conversation at this point; compassion- what a joke.:-) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mailp=graduation+giftscs=bz
