RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula

[Rick Archer]

From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of lurkernomore20002000
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 3:25 PM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
 
Turq:   
And now Ravi's interview has quietly
> been "disappeared" from the list, so as not to somehow
> cast questions upon the other interviews, and on the
> whole concept of "ordinary enlightenment." 

 Rick: 
I removed it. I think each interview stands on it's own, but if I were one
> of the people interviewed, I might feel uncomfortable about being
associated
> with someone who was acting as Ravi has been. In light of Ravi's behavior,
I
> didn't think it appropriate to post his interview, both for the BatGap's
> reputation and for Ravi's well-being. I don't think it's healthy for him
to
> get any more attention or to have anything reinforce his notion that he is
a
> guru.  
I didn't listen to the interview, so I have no idea of the content.  But,
removing it for the reasons stated sounds a little "coddling", if that's the
right word.  Coddling to Ravi, and coddling to those who visit the site.
So, what is the "reputation" of Batgap. And I say that respectfully, because
you have spent a lot of time and energy, and probably money (although I am
aware of your wife's requirement about that).  
None, really. I got some donations, which I'm keeping in a PayPal account,
to defray expenses. 
But how is the interview going to tarnish the reputation.  Thanks.
It's just that I want to maintain a certain quality standard, such that
people can listen at random to any of the interviews and find it worth their
while. I'm no judge of anyone's level of consciousness, so I don't expect to
bat 1000 in choosing my guests, but so far I'd say I'm batting about 900.
Once I've taped an interview, I feel somewhat obligated to the guest to air
it. I thought Ravi's interview went reasonably well, and this whole brouhaha
didn't erupt until a few days or a week after I recorded it. If others
really want to watch it, I may put it up, at least for a while. I was
thinking that if what happened to Ravi was the result of a kundalini
awakening he wasn't able to handle, and was not just the result of bi-polar
disorder, it might be interesting to interview an expert in kundalini, such
as Joan Harrington: http://www.kundalinicare.com/
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula

[Bhairitu]

lurkernomore20002000 wrote:
> Turq:
>
> And now Ravi's interview has quietly
>   
>> been "disappeared" from the list, so as not to somehow
>> cast questions upon the other interviews, and on the
>> whole concept of "ordinary enlightenment."
>> 
>
>
>   Rick:
>
> I removed it. I think each interview stands on it's own, but if I were
> one
>   
>> of the people interviewed, I might feel uncomfortable about being
>> 
> associated
>   
>> with someone who was acting as Ravi has been. In light of Ravi's
>> 
> behavior, I
>   
>> didn't think it appropriate to post his interview, both for the
>> 
> BatGap's
>   
>> reputation and for Ravi's well-being. I don't think it's healthy for
>> 
> him to
>   
>> get any more attention or to have anything reinforce his notion that
>> 
> he is a
>   
>> guru.
>> 
>
> I didn't listen to the interview, so I have no idea of the content. 
> But, removing it for the reasons stated sounds a little "coddling", if
> that's the right word.  Coddling to Ravi, and coddling to those who
> visit the site.  So, what is the "reputation" of Batgap. And I say that
> respectfully, because you have spent a lot of time and energy, and
> probably money (although I am aware of your wife's requirement about
> that).  But how is the interview going to tarnish the reputation. 
> Thanks.

And especially now after the brouhaha more people probably want to see 
it.  I know I do.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula

[Bhairitu]

Rick Archer wrote:
> From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of gullible fool
> Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 1:39 PM
> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
>  
>   
>
>  
> I'm really out of the loop here, what with my last time in ff being only ten
> or eleven days and exactly ten years ago this month, so one question...
>  
> Who's Ravi?
>  
> He's a guy who lives in Fremont California. Amma devotee among other things.
> I interviewed him for BatGap recently. After that he kind of went nuts,
> proclaiming himself a guru and over posting here so that he's on no-post
> status now. If you look through the archives you'll see tons of stuff, but a
> hike in the woods would do you more good.
>   

gully can go to his Twitter account:
https://twitter.com/chivukularavi

He's also posted a video you can download (it went over 10 minutes 
couldn't upload it to YouTube).

I don't find him much different from any other Indians I've met.

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula

[Rick Archer]

From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of gullible fool
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 1:39 PM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
 
  

 
I'm really out of the loop here, what with my last time in ff being only ten
or eleven days and exactly ten years ago this month, so one question...
 
Who's Ravi?
 
He's a guy who lives in Fremont California. Amma devotee among other things.
I interviewed him for BatGap recently. After that he kind of went nuts,
proclaiming himself a guru and over posting here so that he's on no-post
status now. If you look through the archives you'll see tons of stuff, but a
hike in the woods would do you more good.
 

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula

[Rick Archer]

From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of authfriend
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 1:21 PM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
 
  
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 , "Rick Archer"  wrote:
>
> On Behalf Of TurquoiseB

> My point is that people seem to be stopping at the 
> surface of this whole tempest in a pisspot, and not
> looking beneath the surface at its implications. I'm 
> merely looking at them, and bringing them up for 
> consideration. Not that I think any of these things
> will actually be considered. In my experience, the
> allegiance to a long-held set of beliefs is almost
> always stronger than the allegiance to reality.
>
> So are you saying that no one is or has been genuinely
> enlightened, and that all supposedly enlightened people
> have been or are guilty of the delusions you mention,
> or are you saying that many have been, and that it may
> be hard for many people to sort out the genuine ones
> from the bogus ones? I ascribe to the latter perspective.

Me too, with the caveat that it's not that hard to
make the distinction when you're talking about the
extreme ends of the spectrum, e.g., Ravi versus Rama
Maharshi. It's the ones in the middle who can be
difficult to sort out (and there you may well be
dealing as much with philosophy and semantics as with
clinical distinctions).
Good caveat. 

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula

[gullible fool]

 
I'm really out of the loop here, what with my last time in ff being only ten or 
eleven days and exactly ten years ago this month, so one question...
 
Who's Ravi?
 
"Love will swallow you, eat you up completely, until there is no `you,' only 
love." 
 
- Amma  

--- On Sun, 5/23/10, Rick Archer  wrote:


From: Rick Archer 
Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010, 1:44 PM















From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On 
Behalf Of TurquoiseB
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:25 AM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
 



Rick -- and he's still never told us how he came to hear
about Ravi and choose him for one of his interviews --
He's been an intermittent contributor to the Amma chat group (which, like FFL 
and the TMO, is not affiliated with her organization), and he always seemed 
reasonable and sane to me. When I started the BatGap chat group, I mentioned it 
there and he joined. He wasn't an obsessive poster, but he occasionally 
mentioned an awakening he had had, or was in the process of having, and he 
seemed genuine and articulate, so I decided to interview him. Keep in mind that 
from my perspective, there are many stages or degrees of awakening, and I don't 
consider anyone I've interviewed to have undergone them all, if that's even 
possible.

gave him a platform from which to announce his "awakening."
Rick's -- and others' -- first impulse was to *defend*
his supposed "normal enlightened status" rather than be
concerned, which they almost certainly would have been
given anyone else spouting such craziness. 
I did? I seldom use the word "enlightened". Implies too "final" an attainment. 
The *secondary*
impulse we've been seeing here, in my opinion, is a bout
of "protect the guru," with any responsibility being
not only shifted away from Amma and her organization,
but taking it as an opportunity to write bhaktied-out
love poems for her. 
Do you think Amma and her organization should be held responsible for someone 
like Ravi. If so, explain to me the logistics of how that would work - how the 
mental health of hundreds of thousands of people could be monitored. As it was, 
Anatol and I both emailed the head of Amma's US organization, and he said he'd 
tell Amma. What more should or could have been done? 
And now Ravi's interview has quietly
been "disappeared" from the list, so as not to somehow
cast questions upon the other interviews, and on the
whole concept of "ordinary enlightenment." 
I removed it. I think each interview stands on it's own, but if I were one of 
the people interviewed, I might feel uncomfortable about being associated with 
someone who was acting as Ravi has been. In light of Ravi's behavior, I didn't 
think it appropriate to post his interview, both for the BatGap's reputation 
and for Ravi's well-being. I don't think it's healthy for him to get any more 
attention or to have anything reinforce his notion that he is a guru. 
By my definition, a spiritual awakening does not preclude a subsequent mental 
breakdown. In fact, it may precipitate one if one is unprepared for it. Ravi 
had done little or no spiritual practice. If this was a Kundalini awakening, 
and not just a bi-polar episode, he was unprepared for it. His ego appropriated 
it and went hog-wild. 







  

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula

[Peter]

--- On Sun, 5/23/10, Rick Archer  wrote:

From: Rick Archer 
Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010, 1:49 PM














 
 
 
 
 







 



















From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TurquoiseB


As did Maharishi, rejecting and divorcing himself

from essentially the entire tradition he had been

part of, which would never have allowed him to be

a teacher. Seems to me that there is a bit of a 

double standard going on here... 

He did? I thought he
always emphasized his allegiance to his tradition.

I think you could argue that the orthodox tradition of Shankaracharyas felt MMY 
was doing something wrong. They, perhaps, rejected him, but he never rejected 
them. Similar to how Maharishi superficially rejected Sri Sri Ravi Shankar 
(i.e., "Meditators should watch out for sweet poison") yet the two remained in 
close contact and SSRS adores MMY. SSRS said MMY was a "Lion of Consciousness." 
Amen to that!
 



























 





  

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula

[Rick Archer]

From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of TurquoiseB
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:46 AM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
 
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 , "Joe"  wrote:
>
> Yes...now that you mention it, there was that one post from 
> him saying he would eat Amma for lunch and Maharishi for dinner, 
> or words to that effect.
> 
> But you know, the whole episode brings up a topic that has 
> long fascinated me; and that is the very fine line that 
> separates so-called "enlightenment" from borderline behavioral 
> disorders such as paranoid schizophrenia.
> 
> I'm open to the possibility that "enlightenment" is just a 
> stamp of authenticity on certain behavioral disorders. When 
> I spent time around MMY I certainly saw behaviors that would 
> have sent most folks in for some mental retread time.

Bingo.

That is *exactly* the point I've been trying to make.

The much larger issue here is the seeming inability
of many people to perceive the claim of enlightenment
as in the same ballpark as any other claim made by 
any other crazy person. 

*It's all going on in their heads*. ALL of it. But 
for some people, because they have invested so much
of their belief and so much money and so many years
of their lives *into* believing that enlightenment is
the "highest goal," they have to divorce their reaction
to Ravi as a fairly obvious crazy person from having
any wider implications, and resist taking a critical 
look at the claims of *other* persons who have made 
similarly solisistic statements and similar claims 
in the past.

How many of *them* (people revered in the past or the
present as enlightened "gurus") walked away from the 
responsibilities of wife and family and got *praised* 
for it, not badrapped? How many of *them* became as 
dismissive of those who didn't revere them as Ravi has, 
and treated them the way he does? How many of *them* 
had a similar inability to appreciate anyone else's 
point of view than their own, and consider it valid?

My point is that people seem to be stopping at the 
surface of this whole tempest in a pisspot, and not
looking beneath the surface at its implications. I'm 
merely looking at them, and bringing them up for 
consideration. Not that I think any of these things
will actually be considered. In my experience, the
allegiance to a long-held set of beliefs is almost
always stronger than the allegiance to reality.
So are you saying that no one is or has been genuinely enlightened, and that
all supposedly enlightened people have been or are guilty of the delusions
you mention, or are you saying that many have been, and that it may be hard
for many people to sort out the genuine ones from the bogus ones? I ascribe
to the latter perspective.

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula

[Rick Archer]

From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of TurquoiseB
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:32 AM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
 
  
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 , "Rick Archer"  wrote:
>
> > On Behalf Of Joe
> > 
> > Yep, you wonder just how much of the whole story is bullshit 
> > and what isn't. Could it be some kind of over-the-top weird 
> > devotional to Amma? A very poor advertisement if so.
> 
> Hardly one she would appreciate. 

Why? 

Really. I don't think you quite understand the 
import of what you are saying, Rick.

Are you really suggesting that it's *right* for
a "guru" to *keep* their students devoted to them?
No. I was implying that I don't think any public figure would appreciate a
nut case claiming to be a representative or follower. Amma is very tolerant
of such people. She refuses to expel really obnoxious people from her
ashram, despite protestations from the majority, but she never reinforces
anyone's delusions of grandeur.

> > Many of his posts, including 
> > in the Amma chat, proclaim his independence from her and his 
> > new status as guru in his own right.

As did Maharishi, rejecting and divorcing himself
from essentially the entire tradition he had been
part of, which would never have allowed him to be
a teacher. Seems to me that there is a bit of a 
double standard going on here...
He did? I thought he always emphasized his allegiance to his tradition.

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula

[Rick Archer]

From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of TurquoiseB
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:25 AM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
 
Rick -- and he's still never told us how he came to hear
about Ravi and choose him for one of his interviews --
He's been an intermittent contributor to the Amma chat group (which, like
FFL and the TMO, is not affiliated with her organization), and he always
seemed reasonable and sane to me. When I started the BatGap chat group, I
mentioned it there and he joined. He wasn't an obsessive poster, but he
occasionally mentioned an awakening he had had, or was in the process of
having, and he seemed genuine and articulate, so I decided to interview him.
Keep in mind that from my perspective, there are many stages or degrees of
awakening, and I don't consider anyone I've interviewed to have undergone
them all, if that's even possible.

gave him a platform from which to announce his "awakening."
Rick's -- and others' -- first impulse was to *defend*
his supposed "normal enlightened status" rather than be
concerned, which they almost certainly would have been
given anyone else spouting such craziness. 
I did? I seldom use the word "enlightened". Implies too "final" an
attainment.
The *secondary*
impulse we've been seeing here, in my opinion, is a bout
of "protect the guru," with any responsibility being
not only shifted away from Amma and her organization,
but taking it as an opportunity to write bhaktied-out
love poems for her. 
Do you think Amma and her organization should be held responsible for
someone like Ravi. If so, explain to me the logistics of how that would work
- how the mental health of hundreds of thousands of people could be
monitored. As it was, Anatol and I both emailed the head of Amma's US
organization, and he said he'd tell Amma. What more should or could have
been done?
And now Ravi's interview has quietly
been "disappeared" from the list, so as not to somehow
cast questions upon the other interviews, and on the
whole concept of "ordinary enlightenment." 
I removed it. I think each interview stands on it's own, but if I were one
of the people interviewed, I might feel uncomfortable about being associated
with someone who was acting as Ravi has been. In light of Ravi's behavior, I
didn't think it appropriate to post his interview, both for the BatGap's
reputation and for Ravi's well-being. I don't think it's healthy for him to
get any more attention or to have anything reinforce his notion that he is a
guru. 
By my definition, a spiritual awakening does not preclude a subsequent
mental breakdown. In fact, it may precipitate one if one is unprepared for
it. Ravi had done little or no spiritual practice. If this was a Kundalini
awakening, and not just a bi-polar episode, he was unprepared for it. His
ego appropriated it and went hog-wild.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula

[ditzyklanmail]

This guys experience, impressed by the experience of others? lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcc3Y642Cv8&feature=related





From: nablusoss1008 
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 23 May, 2010 5:39:36 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula

  


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "wayback71"  wrote:
> >
> > But if Ravi is plain old seriously manic, and then gets good 
> > treatment and maintains it, then all this guru stuff will seem 
> > wild to him, too.  In fact, if he gets well, he will understand 
> > why he felt that way but also recognize that it was totally 
> > unreal and part of the illness.  He will hope that people can 
> > forget or forgive his wildness and wish that he had not broadcast 
> > his instability so far and wide.  He won't be insisting on being 
> > a guru anymore and he won't feel like one, either, dull as that 
> > may be.  Let's hope he gets good treatment .
> 
> Which is precisely why treatment will be so difficult,
> even if he willingly undergoes it. I for one do not 
> believe a word of him "checking himself into a mental
> health care facility."
> 
> There is a case to be made here for an Indian guy, tired
> of the responsibilities of wife and children, trying to
> find an "acceptable" way of dumping them. In his culture,
> one of those ways is to declare yourself enlightened. If
> you do, you now get judged by an entirely different set
> of standards than anyone else. You get to not only dump
> your wife and kids without being considered an irrespon-
> sible asshole for doing so, you get *praised* for doing
> so, because you're now following your "inner voice" and
> dedicating yourself to gurudom and "spreading the light."
> 
> I'm not sure what exactly *is* going on here in the Ravi
> Incident. All I'm sure of is that the *myth* of enlight-
> enment and what it "means" plays a big part in it.
> 
> Rick -- and he's still never told us how he came to hear
> about Ravi and choose him for one of his interviews --
> gave him a platform from which to announce his "awakening."
> Rick's -- and others' -- first impulse was to *defend*
> his supposed "normal enlightened status" rather than be
> concerned, which they almost certainly would have been
> given anyone else spouting such craziness. The *secondary*
> impulse we've been seeing here, in my opinion, is a bout
> of "protect the guru," with any responsibility being
> not only shifted away from Amma and her organization,
> but taking it as an opportunity to write bhaktied-out
> love poems for her. And now Ravi's interview has quietly
> been "disappeared" from the list, so as not to somehow
> cast questions upon the other interviews, and on the
> whole concept of "ordinary enlightenment."

I was thinking along these lines also. 
It also reveals how easily many people are impressed by the experiences of 
others, in this case Rick. It's in some quarters almost an hysterical awe. As 
personal experiences grow this naturally fades away.
In the "home" of Maharishi this "hysteria" would never gain foothold ofcourse 
as Maharishi would put things into perspectice relatively quickly. 
Remember the british guy who for years had alsmost 24/7 visions of Krisha ? For 
days on end he was so raptured in bliss that he had to be fed by his buddy. 
When he told Maharishi about his visions He laughed and jokingly said "B" 
is dreaming again. I don't think Maharishi disapprooved of the expriences or 
saw them as unreal, only that the fellow should "take it easy" and spend many 
more years to stabilize his experiences. Which he eventually certainly did.


 

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula

[Rick Archer]

From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of anatol_zinc
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 7:42 PM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
 
Authfriend makes some excellent points above and most likely more or less
correct concerning Ravi's situation.
And it would be good if someone in a position to do so could help him get
treatment.
Family and friends are probably trying to get him some, but as long as he
thinks he's superior to everyone else, it's unlikely they'll be able to.
Unless he gets so bad that he can be forced into treatment. Dr. Pete could
tell us how bad that has to be.

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula

[Rick Archer]

From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Joe
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 7:03 PM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
 
  

Yep, you wonder just how much of the whole story is bullshit and what isn't.
Could it be some kind of over-the-top weird devotional to Amma?
A very poor advertisement if so.
Hardly one she would appreciate. Many of his posts, including in the Amma
chat, proclaim his independence from her and his new status as guru in his
own right.
 

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula

[Rick Archer]

From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of wayback71
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 4:30 PM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
 
 But if Ravi is plain old seriously manic, and then gets good treatment and
maintains it, then all this guru stuff will seem wild to him, too. In fact,
if he gets well, he will understand why he felt that way but also recognize
that it was totally unreal and part of the illness. He will hope that people
can forget or forgive his wildness and wish that he had not broadcast his
instability so far and wide. He won't be insisting on being a guru anymore
and he won't feel like one, either, dull as that may be. Let's hope he gets
good treatment .
 
That's what I was thinking. But it turns out Ravi isn't in a hospital in
Missouri. He's still in Massachusetts and was BSing everyone about the
hospital.