[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Pope's speech on Faith and reason ( Theocracy Vs. Democracy)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: more on the Pope's hypocrisy and stupidity: http://www.slate.com/id/2149863/nav/tap1/ Smartly done. If akk tge works to cite and all the words to quote from that specific work he chose, he chose those words from that book. They obviously reflect his own attitudes about Islam vs Christianity, no matter how hypocritical they may be. Of course, dare I point out the contraditory and psychotic childhood background of our current Pope as a reason for why his reasoning and speech is so bizarre and contradictory? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Pope's speech on Faith and reason ( Theocracy Vs. Democracy)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] So, yes, there are 'Enlightened Kings, or Rajas' And yes, there are evil dictators, bent on destruction. Big difference, wouldn't you agree? R.G. The question arises: how do you tell the difference? The second question, how do you ensure that the offspring are equally benevolent, assume that their parents are? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Pope's speech on Faith and reason ( Theocracy Vs. Democracy)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] The difference in the Islamic countries, is the lack of tolerance; Of anything, other than, what 'They' say is Islamic; And 'death' to anyone who does not, 'believe'. Typical fascism to me. Superior race? yeah right... So, I don't really think you can compare the atmosphere in Canada; To Iran, or Iraq, Saudi Arabia, or any other Islamic country. If there is one; then that should be a model; But I really can't think of one. Can you? R.G. The difference is that many of the Islamic countries are stuck in cultural modes from centuries ago due to recovering from centuries of colonial rule. The USA wrote separation of church and state into its Constitution 200+ years ago, and in fact, most modern countries took some portion of their own stance on religion and church directly from it. Even some Islamic countries. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Pope's speech on Faith and reason ( Theocracy Vs. Democracy)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante no_reply@ wrote: more on the Pope's hypocrisy and stupidity: http://www.slate.com/id/2149863/nav/tap1/ Smartly done. If akk tge works to cite and all the words to quote from that specific work he chose, he chose those words from that book. They obviously reflect his own attitudes about Islam vs Christianity, no matter how hypocritical they may be. A different view (and a far more thoughtful one than that of Hitchens, IMHO, whether right or wrong), from a diary on the blog DailyKos: Manuel II spoke from the prejudices of his time and from the limitations of his understanding when, in conversation with his Muslim companion, he said Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached. In quoting him, the Pope knew full well that this was a deeply flawed conversation; he characterized Manuel's speech as startlingly brusque, which is just diplomacy-speak for incredibly rude. What is crucial to understand is that the Pope chose this conversation not because of Manuel's flawed and bigoted view of Islam, but precisely because --however flawed -- it was a conversation. The Pope chose to comment on an ancient conversation between West and East precisely because the modern West, in his estimation, *has lost the ability even to carry on this kind of conversation*. The Cardinal Ratzinger who struggled mightily to help the Catholic Church come to terms with its violent past in 2000, now six years later wants to help the West talk about violence again. And he finds that it is not the Muslims who cannot talk about it, *but contemporary Western society* that cannot talk about it. Why not? Because contemporary Western society cannot do what Muslim societies are able to do; contemporary Western culture cannot reconcile *reason* with *faith*. The Pope's speech at Regensberg was an impassioned plea to the West to recover the union of reason and faith so as to be able to talk to cultures --such as Islam -- that unite reason with faith. Far from criticizing Muslims, at Regensberg Pope Benedict was aligning himself with them What is really unfortunate isn't that Pope Benedict reached back to a flawed and bigoted 12th century conversation in order to have a context for speaking about religious violence today. What is unfortunate is that he *had* to. For centuries, the West refused to talk to Islam at all, because we didn't share the same faith. Now, we've lost even the ability to talk to Islam, and we've lost that ability because we don't share a belief in faith itself -- a belief that is central to Islamic culture. Unless we reclaim the ability to talk about faith without sneering, we will insult Muslims at the very core of their culture, at the very core of their existence. In that state of insult, there can be no peace. What Pope Benedict is saying, is this: It is the insistence that faith has no part in a modern and rational world, that is the hobgoblin of little minds. [emphases in original] See an earlier post from me on this topic with the URL to the full diary. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Pope's speech on Faith and reason ( Theocracy Vs. Democracy)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (snip) And I have to disagree with the premise, that Islamic countries are not ready for Democracy. I think any civilized people are ready for it, but may need more time and help depending on what their previous experiences have been. May need more time and help = not ready I mean that what they have in Islamic culture, is a Theocracy: A government based in 'Supreme religious authority'... Therefore there is no seperation of church and state, which is the corner-stone of our democracy... So, in that situation, you either have a King of a Theocracy. And that is what all of the Arab countries in the middle east have. Either a king or a dictator. Simply incompatible...with free thinking, and equal rights. very fascist really... R.G. Like vedic culture, rajas, and laws based on scripture? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Pope's speech on Faith and reason ( Theocracy Vs. Democracy)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (snip) And I have to disagree with the premise, that Islamic countries are not ready for Democracy. I think any civilized people are ready for it, but may need more time and help depending on what their previous experiences have been. May need more time and help = not ready I mean that what they have in Islamic culture, is a Theocracy: A government based in 'Supreme religious authority'... Therefore there is no seperation of church and state, which is the corner-stone of our democracy... I wouldn't call it THE cornerstone, it may be one of them and is certainly not something that makes or breaks a democracy. Canada doesn't have the separation of church and state. Up until about 8 years ago (when they amended the constitution for Quebec) all public schools in Quebec were either Protestant or Catholic. Jews were deemed Protestant and sand hymns every morning like everyone else...I went to a Protestant grade school where 90% of the kids and 90% of the faculty were Jewish and no one complained. The Quebec National Assembly has a Cross of Jesus over the Speaker's Chair. It is the tradition of the Members of Quebec's National Assembly to, upon both entering and leaving the chamber, to bow before the Speaker's Chair...and it isn't clear whether they are bowing to the Speaker or to Jesus. So, in that situation, you either have a King of a Theocracy. And that is what all of the Arab countries in the middle east have. Either a king or a dictator. Simply incompatible...with free thinking, and equal rights. very fascist really... R.G. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Pope's speech on Faith and reason ( Theocracy Vs. Democracy)
more on the Pope's hypocrisy and stupidity: http://www.slate.com/id/2149863/nav/tap1/ To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Pope's speech on Faith and reason ( Theocracy Vs. Democracy)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel babajii_99@ wrote: (snip) And I have to disagree with the premise, that Islamic countries are not ready for Democracy. I think any civilized people are ready for it, but may need more time and help depending on what their previous experiences have been. May need more time and help = not ready I mean that what they have in Islamic culture, is a Theocracy: A government based in 'Supreme religious authority'... Therefore there is no seperation of church and state, which is the corner-stone of our democracy... So, in that situation, you either have a King of a Theocracy. And that is what all of the Arab countries in the middle east have. Either a king or a dictator. Simply incompatible...with free thinking, and equal rights. very fascist really... R.G. Like vedic culture, rajas, and laws based on scripture? Yes, exactly: That is why Maharishi prefers this system, and is not fond of democracy's as we know... To follow the vedic culture, like Maharishi wants, would create, an 'Ideal Society', I believe... However: The increasing polarized Islamic culture seems bent on destructive tendencies to say the least. So, yes, there are 'Enlightened Kings, or Rajas' And yes, there are evil dictators, bent on destruction. Big difference, wouldn't you agree? R.G. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Pope's speech on Faith and reason ( Theocracy Vs. Democracy)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel babajii_99@ wrote: (snip) And I have to disagree with the premise, that Islamic countries are not ready for Democracy. I think any civilized people are ready for it, but may need more time and help depending on what their previous experiences have been. May need more time and help = not ready I mean that what they have in Islamic culture, is a Theocracy: A government based in 'Supreme religious authority'... Therefore there is no seperation of church and state, which is the corner-stone of our democracy... So, in that situation, you either have a King of a Theocracy. And that is what all of the Arab countries in the middle east have. Either a king or a dictator. Simply incompatible...with free thinking, and equal rights. very fascist really... R.G. Like vedic culture, rajas, and laws based on scripture? Yes, exactly: That is why Maharishi prefers this system, and is not fond of democracy's as we know... To follow the vedic culture, like Maharishi wants, would create, an 'Ideal Society', I believe... However: The increasing polarized Islamic culture seems bent on destructive tendencies to say the least. So, yes, there are 'Enlightened Kings, or Rajas' And yes, there are evil dictators, bent on destruction. Big difference, wouldn't you agree? R.G. And you feel / know that the TMO rajas are closer to god than mullahs? Not fire- breathing mullahs -- which are the minority. But the mainstream, average mullahs living a quite devoted and sanctified life. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Pope's speech on Faith and reason ( Theocracy Vs. Democracy)
(snip) I mean that is what they have in Islamic culture, a Theocracy: A government based in 'Supreme religious authority'... Therefore there is no seperation of church and state, which is the corner-stone of our democracy... ~~ I wouldn't call it THE cornerstone, it may be one of them and is... Certainly not something that makes or breaks a democracy. Canada doesn't have the separation of church and state. Up until about 8 years ago (when they amended the constitution for Quebec) all public schools in Quebec were either Protestant or Catholic. Jews were deemed Protestant and sand hymns every morning like everyone else...I went to a Protestant grade school where 90% of the kids and 90% of the faculty were Jewish and no one complained. The Quebec National Assembly has a Cross of Jesus over the Speaker's Chair. It is the tradition of the Members of Quebec's National Assembly to, upon both entering and leaving the chamber, to bow before the Speaker's Chair...and it isn't clear whether they are bowing to the Speaker or to Jesus. Well, it sounds very much, like there was a 'oneness' of intention; In your experience in Canada. My growing up in Philiadelphia; We used to have Bible readings sometimes, in assembly, at public school; I always liked that; I am Jewish, and Was never offended, really, by anything; From the New Testiment... It was always a peaceful feeling for me. The difference in the Islamic countries, is the lack of tolerance; Of anything, other than, what 'They' say is Islamic; And 'death' to anyone who does not, 'believe'. Typical fascism to me. Superior race? yeah right... So, I don't really think you can compare the atmosphere in Canada; To Iran, or Iraq, Saudi Arabia, or any other Islamic country. If there is one; then that should be a model; But I really can't think of one. Can you? R.G. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Pope's speech on Faith and reason ( Theocracy Vs. Democracy)
(snip) And you feel / know that the TMO rajas are closer to god than mullahs? Not fire- breathing mullahs -- which are the minority. But the mainstream, average mullahs living a quite devoted and sanctified life. I was not saying any particular TM Rajas are enlightened. I was using the sanskrit word, to describe an enlightened King. I was just saying that we have had enlighened Kings, throughout history; And we have had fairly unenlighened rulers as well, that brought destruction upon their people... I am sure there are many fine mullahs, and devoted people in Iran, and the other places. They are not the one's in power now, unfortunately; And the ones who are in power are fire-breathing, as you say; They do want to build an atomic bomb; And they do wish to destroy Israel and the United States. That is why they call it terrorism, fascism. That is not the work of a benevolant King. I was speaking in historical terms. The current leader in Iran, is taking advantage of our weaknesses, Right now, in every part of the world... And is doing everything he can to undermine Israel, and this country: Attempting to align with China, Russia, Venezuala, Cuba, and all the rest of our enemy's of which now, we have many... I believe the basic concepts of enlighened leadership; Expounded in the Vedas, and similar to Socrates, and Plato's concepts.. And other's; I just don't happen to believe the current leadership in these places; Are anything other than on a dangerous path toward war with the US and Israel. Hopefully not...? R.G. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
