[FairfieldLife] Re: Charismatic Spiritual

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

..  

 Charisma and shakti classically are not taught as the same thing. Charisma 
being more of the personality in faculties and shakti a life force itself.  

 Something I find interesting in this academic introduction further below is 
the attempt to introduce for academicians the aspect of shakti as primordial 
into the consideration of charisma, separate from personality features. .."Pure 
charisma thus is personal and is based on face-to-face contact and feelings of 
trust, duty, and love on the part of the followers (Schweitzer 1984, 33). It is 
creative and revolutionary, for "in its pure form charisma . . . may be said to 
exist only in the process of originating" (Weber 1964, 364). 
 



---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Shakti, What are they doing for good with it? 

 On a ‘shaktic scale’ different spiritual people evidently have different 
capacity to help transform others in their spiritual life.  And then there are 
the ones we call ‘saints’ for their transforming  capacity. In the old Quaker 
practice of silent meditative meetings some individual old Friends whose 
presence ‘settled’ the silence of the group meditative Quaker meetings were 
known as “Weighty Friends” for their field effect of shakti on others.  And 
then the scope of shakti transmission in someone living like Ammachi helps one 
consider the possibilities of homo sapien. 
  
 A 'shaktic' or spiritual experience scale different 
 from beliefs, enthusiasm, or faith in a doctrine.  'Shaktic' possibly 
 as a word for scale of actual spiritual experience.  Shakti as a word 
 for a spiritual energy or field  experienced directly. 
 -Graphing, Spiritual Experience with Millennial-ism
 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/communal-studies-forum/BVT5Okg_nfc 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/communal-studies-forum/BVT5Okg_nfc
  

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 
Shakti, 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 "In using charisma to explain social change and heroic leaders, Weber did not 
intend merely to invent a dry academic term. Rather, he saw charisma as 
representing the incarnate life force itself, "the thrust of the sap in the 
tree and the blood in the veins," an elemental or daemonic power (Dow 1978)."  
-Prophetic Charisma.. Intro.
 

 

 Book Review:
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the Castaneda Phenomenon 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 
 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation f... 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the 'Castaneda Phenomenon' 
Introduction by Corey Donovan


 
 View on sustainedaction.org 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

 

 


 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 What of charisma, spiritually? 
  Where is TM with charisma?
 Evidently it would seem that TM's charisma is now "dispersed and routinized, 
..and not necessarily as great a force for social change,"  .. 
 'routinized', by this way of thinking:
 

 Prophetic Charisma: The Psychology of Revolutionary Religious Personalities 
(1997) by Len Oakes
 Introduction by Corey Donovan
 What is this thing called charisma?
 [T]he idea of a divinely inspired power or talent is as old as mankind. The 
oldest surviving work of fiction, the Epic of Gilgamesh, tells of a 
warrior-king, part god and part man, who quests for the secret of eternal life. 
He has many adventures in the lands of the gods, and even attains that which he 
seeks, only to have it torn from his grasp at the last moment. He returns home 
convinced of the futility of his quest and knowing that "the central fact of my 
life is my death" (Kopp 1972, 31; Heidel 1968).
 

 The word "charisma" comes from the name of the Greek goddess Charis, who 
personified grace, beauty, purity, and altruism. Possession of these faculties 
came to be known as charisma. [Footnote: The Greek word is charizesthai, and it 
means favor or gift of divine origin. The Greeks do not seem to have associated 
this with the kind of demagogic and irrational leadership of which Plato wrote 
in his Gorgias, although they were well aware of the rhapsodic "Dionysian" 
aspect of life; Plato was a member of the Elysian mystery cult. For Aristotle 
the megalopsychos was the great man who dares to live alone in secret worship 
of his own soul. 
 The Romans called the hero’s charismatic power facilitas and believed it was 
derived from the gods.] 
 Later usages derive from St. Paul, who saw it as a gift of grace from God: "To 
one there is given through the spirit the message of wisdom, to another the 
message of knowledge by means of the same spirit, to another faith by the 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Charismatic Spiritual

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Charisma and shakti classically are not taught as the same thing. Charisma 
being more of the personality in faculties and shakti a life force itself.  

 Something I find interesting in this academic introduction further below is 
the attempt to introduce for academicians the aspect of shakti as primordial 
into the consideration of charisma, separate from personality features. .."Pure 
charisma thus is personal and is based on face-to-face contact and feelings of 
trust, duty, and love on the part of the followers (Schweitzer 1984, 33). It is 
creative and revolutionary, for "in its pure form charisma . . . may be said to 
exist only in the process of originating" (Weber 1964, 364). 
 



---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Shakti, What are they doing for good with it? 

 On a ‘shaktic scale’ different spiritual people evidently have different 
capacity to help transform others in their spiritual life.  And then there are 
the ones we call ‘saints’ for their transforming  capacity. In the old Quaker 
practice of silent meditative meetings some individual old Friends whose 
presence ‘settled’ the silence of the group meditative Quaker meetings were 
known as “Weighty Friends” for their field effect of shakti on others.  And 
then the scope of shakti transmission in someone living like Ammachi helps one 
consider the possibilities of homo sapien. 
  
 A 'shaktic' or spiritual experience scale different 
 from beliefs, enthusiasm, or faith in a doctrine.  'Shaktic' possibly 
 as a word for scale of actual spiritual experience.  Shakti as a word 
 for a spiritual energy or field  experienced directly. 
 -Graphing, Spiritual Experience with Millennial-ism
 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/communal-studies-forum/BVT5Okg_nfc 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/communal-studies-forum/BVT5Okg_nfc
  

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 
Shakti, 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 "In using charisma to explain social change and heroic leaders, Weber did not 
intend merely to invent a dry academic term. Rather, he saw charisma as 
representing the incarnate life force itself, "the thrust of the sap in the 
tree and the blood in the veins," an elemental or daemonic power (Dow 1978)."  
-Prophetic Charisma.. Intro.
 

 

 Book Review:
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the Castaneda Phenomenon 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 
 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation f... 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the 'Castaneda Phenomenon' 
Introduction by Corey Donovan


 
 View on sustainedaction.org 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

 

 


 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 What of charisma, spiritually? 
  Where is TM with charisma?
 Evidently it would seem that TM's charisma is now "dispersed and routinized, 
..and not necessarily as great a force for social change,"  .. 
 'routinized', by this way of thinking:
 

 Prophetic Charisma: The Psychology of Revolutionary Religious Personalities 
(1997) by Len Oakes
 Introduction by Corey Donovan
 What is this thing called charisma?
 [T]he idea of a divinely inspired power or talent is as old as mankind. The 
oldest surviving work of fiction, the Epic of Gilgamesh, tells of a 
warrior-king, part god and part man, who quests for the secret of eternal life. 
He has many adventures in the lands of the gods, and even attains that which he 
seeks, only to have it torn from his grasp at the last moment. He returns home 
convinced of the futility of his quest and knowing that "the central fact of my 
life is my death" (Kopp 1972, 31; Heidel 1968).
 

 The word "charisma" comes from the name of the Greek goddess Charis, who 
personified grace, beauty, purity, and altruism. Possession of these faculties 
came to be known as charisma. [Footnote: The Greek word is charizesthai, and it 
means favor or gift of divine origin. The Greeks do not seem to have associated 
this with the kind of demagogic and irrational leadership of which Plato wrote 
in his Gorgias, although they were well aware of the rhapsodic "Dionysian" 
aspect of life; Plato was a member of the Elysian mystery cult. For Aristotle 
the megalopsychos was the great man who dares to live alone in secret worship 
of his own soul. 
 The Romans called the hero’s charismatic power facilitas and believed it was 
derived from the gods.] 
 Later usages derive from St. Paul, who saw it as a gift of grace from God: "To 
one there is given through the spirit the message of wisdom, 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Charismatic Spiritual

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Shakti, What are they doing for good with it? 

 On a ‘shaktic scale’ different spiritual people evidently have different 
capacity to help transform others in their spiritual life.  And then there are 
the ones we call ‘saints’ for their transforming  capacity. In the old Quaker 
practice of silent meditative meetings some individual old Friends whose 
presence ‘settled’ the silence of the group meditative Quaker meetings were 
known as “Weighty Friends” for their field effect of shakti on others.  And 
then the scope of shakti transmission in someone living like Ammachi helps one 
consider the possibilities of homo sapien. 
  
 A 'shaktic' or spiritual experience scale different 
 from beliefs, enthusiasm, or faith in a doctrine.  'Shaktic' possibly 
 as a word for scale of actual spiritual experience.  Shakti as a word 
 for a spiritual energy or field  experienced directly. 
 -Graphing, Spiritual Experience with Millennial-ism
 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/communal-studies-forum/BVT5Okg_nfc 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/communal-studies-forum/BVT5Okg_nfc
  

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 
Shakti, 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 "In using charisma to explain social change and heroic leaders, Weber did not 
intend merely to invent a dry academic term. Rather, he saw charisma as 
representing the incarnate life force itself, "the thrust of the sap in the 
tree and the blood in the veins," an elemental or daemonic power (Dow 1978)."  
-Prophetic Charisma.. Intro.
 

 

 Book Review:
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the Castaneda Phenomenon 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 
 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation f... 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the 'Castaneda Phenomenon' 
Introduction by Corey Donovan


 
 View on sustainedaction.org 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

 

 


 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 What of charisma, spiritually? 
  Where is TM with charisma?
 Evidently it would seem that TM's charisma is now "dispersed and routinized, 
..and not necessarily as great a force for social change,"  .. 
 'routinized', by this way of thinking:
 

 Prophetic Charisma: The Psychology of Revolutionary Religious Personalities 
(1997) by Len Oakes
 Introduction by Corey Donovan
 What is this thing called charisma?
 [T]he idea of a divinely inspired power or talent is as old as mankind. The 
oldest surviving work of fiction, the Epic of Gilgamesh, tells of a 
warrior-king, part god and part man, who quests for the secret of eternal life. 
He has many adventures in the lands of the gods, and even attains that which he 
seeks, only to have it torn from his grasp at the last moment. He returns home 
convinced of the futility of his quest and knowing that "the central fact of my 
life is my death" (Kopp 1972, 31; Heidel 1968).
 

 The word "charisma" comes from the name of the Greek goddess Charis, who 
personified grace, beauty, purity, and altruism. Possession of these faculties 
came to be known as charisma. [Footnote: The Greek word is charizesthai, and it 
means favor or gift of divine origin. The Greeks do not seem to have associated 
this with the kind of demagogic and irrational leadership of which Plato wrote 
in his Gorgias, although they were well aware of the rhapsodic "Dionysian" 
aspect of life; Plato was a member of the Elysian mystery cult. For Aristotle 
the megalopsychos was the great man who dares to live alone in secret worship 
of his own soul. 
 The Romans called the hero’s charismatic power facilitas and believed it was 
derived from the gods.] 
 Later usages derive from St. Paul, who saw it as a gift of grace from God: "To 
one there is given through the spirit the message of wisdom, to another the 
message of knowledge by means of the same spirit, to another faith by the same 
spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one spirit, to another miraculous 
powers, to another prophecy" (1 Corinthians 12:8-10).
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

  charisma?
 

 There are scholarly teachers, gurus who teach technique, and saints who give 
help and can directly transform people. With any one or in combination 
(scholars, gurus, saints)  then what is the experience of charisma and where is 
the TMO now with charisma?  Charisma evidently can fluctuate in time in people 
and movements.   
  
 What is charisma?
 One author (Oakes) talks about 'prophetic charisma', on a different continuum 
than what we may 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Charismatic Spiritual

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

ritual movements guru maniacs?
 It would seem to have gall to share original ideas on spiritual matters. 
Almost by definition, spiritual matters are beyond perception and 
comprehension, but even so, some people come along to declare things as facts 
concerning the previously unknowable realm.
 Founding or changing a religion would take a real gutsy person, or if not a 
gutsy person, a person in the midst of a manic episode with delusions.
 A founder of a religion would have to speak with great authority, intensity, 
and persuasiveness in order to get followers, and these happen to be the 
qualities of a guru maniac. When under the influence of mania, a guru maniac 
thinks he can do anything, and with his charisma, he can do amazing things. 
 When I hear about either ancient or modern people who have spiritual visions 
or who hear from God, I think they had a grandiose delusion from a kundalini 
crisis.”
  
  
 From: dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] 
 Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2017 4:29 AM
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Charismatic Spiritual


  

   
Shakti, 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <dhamiltony...@yahoo.com> wrote :

 
 "In using charisma to explain social change and heroic leaders, Weber did not 
intend merely to invent a dry academic term. Rather, he saw charisma as 
representing the incarnate life force itself, "the thrust of the sap in the 
tree and the blood in the veins," an elemental or daemonic power (Dow 1978)."  
-Prophetic Charisma.. Intro.
  
  
 Book Review:
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the Castaneda Phenomenon
 
 
 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation f... Prophetic Charisma: A 
Psychological Explanation for the 'Castaneda Phenomenon' Introduction by Corey 
Donovan


 
 View on sustainedaction.org 
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

  
 


 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <dhamiltony...@yahoo.com> wrote :

 What of charisma, spiritually? 
 Where is TM with charisma?
 Evidently it would seem that TM's charisma is now "dispersed and routinized, 
..and not necessarily as great a force for social change,"  .. 
 'routinized', by this way of thinking:
 

 Prophetic Charisma: The Psychology of Revolutionary Religious Personalities 
(1997) by Len Oakes
 Introduction by Corey Donovan
 What is this thing called charisma?
 [T]he idea of a divinely inspired power or talent is as old as mankind. The 
oldest surviving work of fiction, the Epic of Gilgamesh, tells of a 
warrior-king, part god and part man, who quests for the secret of eternal life. 
He has many adventures in the lands of the gods, and even attains that which he 
seeks, only to have it torn from his grasp at the last moment. He returns home 
convinced of the futility of his quest and knowing that "the central fact of my 
life is my death" (Kopp 1972, 31; Heidel 1968).
 

 The word "charisma" comes from the name of the Greek goddess Charis, who 
personified grace, beauty, purity, and altruism. Possession of these faculties 
came to be known as charisma. [Footnote: The Greek word is charizesthai, and it 
means favor or gift of divine origin. The Greeks do not seem to have associated 
this with the kind of demagogic and irrational leadership of which Plato wrote 
in his Gorgias, although they were well aware of the rhapsodic "Dionysian" 
aspect of life; Plato was a member of the Elysian mystery cult. For Aristotle 
the megalopsychos was the great man who dares to live alone in secret worship 
of his own soul. 
 The Romans called the hero’s charismatic power facilitas and believed it was 
derived from the gods.] 
 Later usages derive from St. Paul, who saw it as a gift of grace from God: "To 
one there is given through the spirit the message of wisdom, to another the 
message of knowledge by means of the same spirit, to another faith by the same 
spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one spirit, to another miraculous 
powers, to another prophecy" (1 Corinthians 12:8-10).
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <dhamiltony...@yahoo.com> wrote :

 charisma?
  
 There are scholarly teachers, gurus who teach technique, and saints who give 
help and can directly transform people. With any one or in combination 
(scholars, gurus, saints)  then what is the experience of charisma and where is 
the TMO now with charisma?  Charisma evidently can fluctuate in time in people 
and movements.   
  
 What is charisma?
 One author (Oakes) talks about 'prophetic charisma', on a different continuum 
than what we may see as narcissism, or narcissistic personalities and disorders.
  
 "Pure charisma thus is personal and is based on face-to-face contact and 
feelings of trust, duty, and love on the part of the followers (Schweitzer 
1984, 33). It is creative and revolutionary, for "in

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Charismatic Spiritual

['My Enlightenment Delusion' myenlightenmentdelus...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]]

ndalini 
crisis.”




From: dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] 
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2017 4:29 AM
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Charismatic Spiritual

  

Shakti, 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <dhamiltony...@yahoo.com> wrote :



"In using charisma to explain social change and heroic leaders, Weber did not 
intend merely to invent a dry academic term. Rather, he saw charisma as 
representing the incarnate life force itself, "the thrust of the sap in the 
tree and the blood in the veins," an elemental or daemonic power (Dow 1978)."  
-Prophetic Charisma.. Intro.





Book Review:

Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the Castaneda Phenomenon

 
Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation f... 
  Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the 'Castaneda 
Phenomenon' Introduction by Corey Donovan  
  View on sustainedaction.org  Preview by Yahoo  
 








---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <dhamiltony...@yahoo.com> wrote :


What of charisma, spiritually? 

Where is TM with charisma?

Evidently it would seem that TM's charisma is now "dispersed and routinized, 
..and not necessarily as great a force for social change,"  .. 

'routinized', by this way of thinking:




Prophetic Charisma: The Psychology of Revolutionary Religious Personalities 
(1997) by Len Oakes

Introduction by Corey Donovan

What is this thing called charisma?

[T]he idea of a divinely inspired power or talent is as old as mankind. The 
oldest surviving work of fiction, the Epic of Gilgamesh, tells of a 
warrior-king, part god and part man, who quests for the secret of eternal life. 
He has many adventures in the lands of the gods, and even attains that which he 
seeks, only to have it torn from his grasp at the last moment. He returns home 
convinced of the futility of his quest and knowing that "the central fact of my 
life is my death" (Kopp 1972, 31; Heidel 1968).




The word "charisma" comes from the name of the Greek goddess Charis, who 
personified grace, beauty, purity, and altruism. Possession of these faculties 
came to be known as charisma. [Footnote: The Greek word is charizesthai, and it 
means favor or gift of divine origin. The Greeks do not seem to have associated 
this with the kind of demagogic and irrational leadership of which Plato wrote 
in his Gorgias, although they were well aware of the rhapsodic "Dionysian" 
aspect of life; Plato was a member of the Elysian mystery cult. For Aristotle 
the megalopsychos was the great man who dares to live alone in secret worship 
of his own soul. 

The Romans called the hero’s charismatic power facilitas and believed it was 
derived from the gods.] 

Later usages derive from St. Paul, who saw it as a gift of grace from God: "To 
one there is given through the spirit the message of wisdom, to another the 
message of knowledge by means of the same spirit, to another faith by the same 
spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one spirit, to another miraculous 
powers, to another prophecy" (1 Corinthians 12:8-10).







---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <dhamiltony...@yahoo.com> wrote :


charisma?



There are scholarly teachers, gurus who teach technique, and saints who give 
help and can directly transform people. With any one or in combination 
(scholars, gurus, saints)  then what is the experience of charisma and where is 
the TMO now with charisma?  Charisma evidently can fluctuate in time in people 
and movements.   



What is charisma?

One author (Oakes) talks about 'prophetic charisma', on a different continuum 
than what we may see as narcissism, or narcissistic personalities and disorders.



"Pure charisma thus is personal and is based on face-to-face contact and 
feelings of trust, duty, and love on the part of the followers (Schweitzer 
1984, 33). It is creative and revolutionary, for "in its pure form charisma . . 
. may be said to exist only in the process of originating" (Weber 1964, 364). 
At the other end of the continuum, routinized charisma describes what happens 
when a leader’s charisma is thinly dispersed throughout the followers who act 
in the leader’s name, typically after he has died. It may survive many 
generations and underlie a stable social order, but it is conservative and is 
not a force for social change (Miyahara 1983, 370)."







---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <olliesed...@yahoo.com> wrote :


Nine years on, I'd exhale if I were them.:-) 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <dhamiltony2k5@...> wrote :


Ollie, yours seems a fair critique of the situation here by comparison.  The 
True-believers of the TM meditating community are hopeful that Dr. Nader is 
that person though he is not too available to be experienced or quoted unless 
you have the money to be on courses with him.  Those who have b

[FairfieldLife] Re: Charismatic Spiritual

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Shakti, 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 "In using charisma to explain social change and heroic leaders, Weber did not 
intend merely to invent a dry academic term. Rather, he saw charisma as 
representing the incarnate life force itself, "the thrust of the sap in the 
tree and the blood in the veins," an elemental or daemonic power (Dow 1978)."  
-Prophetic Charisma.. Intro.
 

 

 Book Review:
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the Castaneda Phenomenon 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 
 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation f... 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the 'Castaneda Phenomenon' 
Introduction by Corey Donovan


 
 View on sustainedaction.org 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

 

 


 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 What of charisma, spiritually? 
  Where is TM with charisma?
 Evidently it would seem that TM's charisma is now "dispersed and routinized, 
..and not necessarily as great a force for social change,"  .. 
 'routinized', by this way of thinking:
 

 Prophetic Charisma: The Psychology of Revolutionary Religious Personalities 
(1997) by Len Oakes
 Introduction by Corey Donovan
 What is this thing called charisma?
 [T]he idea of a divinely inspired power or talent is as old as mankind. The 
oldest surviving work of fiction, the Epic of Gilgamesh, tells of a 
warrior-king, part god and part man, who quests for the secret of eternal life. 
He has many adventures in the lands of the gods, and even attains that which he 
seeks, only to have it torn from his grasp at the last moment. He returns home 
convinced of the futility of his quest and knowing that "the central fact of my 
life is my death" (Kopp 1972, 31; Heidel 1968).
 

 The word "charisma" comes from the name of the Greek goddess Charis, who 
personified grace, beauty, purity, and altruism. Possession of these faculties 
came to be known as charisma. [Footnote: The Greek word is charizesthai, and it 
means favor or gift of divine origin. The Greeks do not seem to have associated 
this with the kind of demagogic and irrational leadership of which Plato wrote 
in his Gorgias, although they were well aware of the rhapsodic "Dionysian" 
aspect of life; Plato was a member of the Elysian mystery cult. For Aristotle 
the megalopsychos was the great man who dares to live alone in secret worship 
of his own soul. 
 The Romans called the hero’s charismatic power facilitas and believed it was 
derived from the gods.] 
 Later usages derive from St. Paul, who saw it as a gift of grace from God: "To 
one there is given through the spirit the message of wisdom, to another the 
message of knowledge by means of the same spirit, to another faith by the same 
spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one spirit, to another miraculous 
powers, to another prophecy" (1 Corinthians 12:8-10).
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

  charisma?
 

 There are scholarly teachers, gurus who teach technique, and saints who give 
help and can directly transform people. With any one or in combination 
(scholars, gurus, saints)  then what is the experience of charisma and where is 
the TMO now with charisma?  Charisma evidently can fluctuate in time in people 
and movements.   
  
 What is charisma?
 One author (Oakes) talks about 'prophetic charisma', on a different continuum 
than what we may see as narcissism, or narcissistic personalities and disorders.
  
 "Pure charisma thus is personal and is based on face-to-face contact and 
feelings of trust, duty, and love on the part of the followers (Schweitzer 
1984, 33). It is creative and revolutionary, for "in its pure form charisma . . 
. may be said to exist only in the process of originating" (Weber 1964, 364). 
At the other end of the continuum, routinized charisma describes what happens 
when a leader’s charisma is thinly dispersed throughout the followers who act 
in the leader’s name, typically after he has died. It may survive many 
generations and underlie a stable social order, but it is conservative and is 
not a force for social change (Miyahara 1983, 370)."
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Nine years on, I'd exhale if I were them.:-) 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Ollie, yours seems a fair critique of the situation here by comparison.  The 
True-believers of the TM meditating community are hopeful that Dr. Nader is 
that person though he is not too available to be experienced or quoted unless 
you have 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Charismatic Spiritual

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

"In using charisma to explain social change and heroic leaders, Weber did not 
intend merely to invent a dry academic term. Rather, he saw charisma as 
representing the incarnate life force itself, "the thrust of the sap in the 
tree and the blood in the veins," an elemental or daemonic power (Dow 1978)."  
-Prophetic Charisma.. Intro.
 

 

 Book Review:
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the Castaneda Phenomenon 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 
 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation f... 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the 'Castaneda Phenomenon' 
Introduction by Corey Donovan


 
 View on sustainedaction.org 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

 

 


 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 What of charisma, spiritually? 
  Where is TM with charisma?
 Evidently it would seem that TM's charisma is now "dispersed and routinized, 
..and not necessarily as great a force for social change,"  .. 
 'routinized', by this way of thinking:
 

 Prophetic Charisma: The Psychology of Revolutionary Religious Personalities 
(1997) by Len Oakes
 Introduction by Corey Donovan
 What is this thing called charisma?
 [T]he idea of a divinely inspired power or talent is as old as mankind. The 
oldest surviving work of fiction, the Epic of Gilgamesh, tells of a 
warrior-king, part god and part man, who quests for the secret of eternal life. 
He has many adventures in the lands of the gods, and even attains that which he 
seeks, only to have it torn from his grasp at the last moment. He returns home 
convinced of the futility of his quest and knowing that "the central fact of my 
life is my death" (Kopp 1972, 31; Heidel 1968).
 

 The word "charisma" comes from the name of the Greek goddess Charis, who 
personified grace, beauty, purity, and altruism. Possession of these faculties 
came to be known as charisma. [Footnote: The Greek word is charizesthai, and it 
means favor or gift of divine origin. The Greeks do not seem to have associated 
this with the kind of demagogic and irrational leadership of which Plato wrote 
in his Gorgias, although they were well aware of the rhapsodic "Dionysian" 
aspect of life; Plato was a member of the Elysian mystery cult. For Aristotle 
the megalopsychos was the great man who dares to live alone in secret worship 
of his own soul. 
 The Romans called the hero’s charismatic power facilitas and believed it was 
derived from the gods.] 
 Later usages derive from St. Paul, who saw it as a gift of grace from God: "To 
one there is given through the spirit the message of wisdom, to another the 
message of knowledge by means of the same spirit, to another faith by the same 
spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one spirit, to another miraculous 
powers, to another prophecy" (1 Corinthians 12:8-10).
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

  charisma?
 

 There are scholarly teachers, gurus who teach technique, and saints who give 
help and can directly transform people. With any one or in combination 
(scholars, gurus, saints)  then what is the experience of charisma and where is 
the TMO now with charisma?  Charisma evidently can fluctuate in time in people 
and movements.   
  
 What is charisma?
 One author (Oakes) talks about 'prophetic charisma', on a different continuum 
than what we may see as narcissism, or narcissistic personalities and disorders.
  
 "Pure charisma thus is personal and is based on face-to-face contact and 
feelings of trust, duty, and love on the part of the followers (Schweitzer 
1984, 33). It is creative and revolutionary, for "in its pure form charisma . . 
. may be said to exist only in the process of originating" (Weber 1964, 364). 
At the other end of the continuum, routinized charisma describes what happens 
when a leader’s charisma is thinly dispersed throughout the followers who act 
in the leader’s name, typically after he has died. It may survive many 
generations and underlie a stable social order, but it is conservative and is 
not a force for social change (Miyahara 1983, 370)."
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Nine years on, I'd exhale if I were them.:-) 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Ollie, yours seems a fair critique of the situation here by comparison.  The 
True-believers of the TM meditating community are hopeful that Dr. Nader is 
that person though he is not too available to be experienced or quoted unless 
you have the money to be on courses with him.  Those who have been with him 
seem to ‘like’ 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Charismatic Spiritual

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Book Review:
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the Castaneda Phenomenon 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 
 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation f... 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the 'Castaneda Phenomenon' 
Introduction by Corey Donovan


 
 View on sustainedaction.org 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

 

 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 

 "In using charisma to explain social change and heroic leaders, Weber did not 
intend merely to invent a dry academic term. Rather, he saw charisma as 
representing the incarnate life force itself, "the thrust of the sap in the 
tree and the blood in the veins," an elemental or daemonic power (Dow 1978)."  
-Prophetic Charisma.. Intro.

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 What of charisma, spiritually? 
  Where is TM with charisma?
 Evidently it would seem that TM's charisma is now dispersed and routinized, 
..and not necessarily as great a force for social change,  .. 
 'routinized', by this way of thinking:
 

 Prophetic Charisma: The Psychology of Revolutionary Religious Personalities 
(1997) by Len Oakes
 Introduction by Corey Donovan
 What is this thing called charisma?
 [T]he idea of a divinely inspired power or talent is as old as mankind. The 
oldest surviving work of fiction, the Epic of Gilgamesh, tells of a 
warrior-king, part god and part man, who quests for the secret of eternal life. 
He has many adventures in the lands of the gods, and even attains that which he 
seeks, only to have it torn from his grasp at the last moment. He returns home 
convinced of the futility of his quest and knowing that "the central fact of my 
life is my death" (Kopp 1972, 31; Heidel 1968).
 

 The word "charisma" comes from the name of the Greek goddess Charis, who 
personified grace, beauty, purity, and altruism. Possession of these faculties 
came to be known as charisma. [Footnote: The Greek word is charizesthai, and it 
means favor or gift of divine origin. The Greeks do not seem to have associated 
this with the kind of demagogic and irrational leadership of which Plato wrote 
in his Gorgias, although they were well aware of the rhapsodic "Dionysian" 
aspect of life; Plato was a member of the Elysian mystery cult. For Aristotle 
the megalopsychos was the great man who dares to live alone in secret worship 
of his own soul. 
 The Romans called the hero’s charismatic power facilitas and believed it was 
derived from the gods.] 
 Later usages derive from St. Paul, who saw it as a gift of grace from God: "To 
one there is given through the spirit the message of wisdom, to another the 
message of knowledge by means of the same spirit, to another faith by the same 
spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one spirit, to another miraculous 
powers, to another prophecy" (1 Corinthians 12:8-10).
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

  charisma?
 

 There are scholarly teachers, gurus who teach technique, and saints who give 
help and can directly transform people. With any one or in combination 
(scholars, gurus, saints)  then what is the experience of charisma and where is 
the TMO now with charisma?  Charisma evidently can fluctuate in time in people 
and movements.   
  
 What is charisma?
 One author (Oakes) talks about 'prophetic charisma', on a different continuum 
than what we may see as narcissism, or narcissistic personalities and disorders.
  
 "Pure charisma thus is personal and is based on face-to-face contact and 
feelings of trust, duty, and love on the part of the followers (Schweitzer 
1984, 33). It is creative and revolutionary, for "in its pure form charisma . . 
. may be said to exist only in the process of originating" (Weber 1964, 364). 
At the other end of the continuum, routinized charisma describes what happens 
when a leader’s charisma is thinly dispersed throughout the followers who act 
in the leader’s name, typically after he has died. It may survive many 
generations and underlie a stable social order, but it is conservative and is 
not a force for social change (Miyahara 1983, 370)."
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Nine years on, I'd exhale if I were them.:-) 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Ollie, yours seems a fair critique of the situation here by comparison.  The 
True-believers of the TM meditating community are hopeful that Dr. Nader is 
that person though he is 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Charismatic Spiritual

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Book Review:
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the Castaneda Phenomenon 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 
 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation f... 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 Prophetic Charisma: A Psychological Explanation for the 'Castaneda Phenomenon' 
Introduction by Corey Donovan 
 
 
 
 View on sustainedaction.org 
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/prophetic_charisma_psychological_explanation%20part1.htm
 
 Preview by Yahoo 
 
 
 

 

 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 

 "In using charisma to explain social change and heroic leaders, Weber did not 
intend merely to invent a dry academic term. Rather, he saw charisma as 
representing the incarnate life force itself, "the thrust of the sap in the 
tree and the blood in the veins," an elemental or daemonic power (Dow 1978)."  
-Prophetic Charisma.. Intro.

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 What of charisma, spiritually? 
  Where is TM with charisma?
 Evidently it would seem that TM's charisma is now dispersed and routinized, 
..and not necessarily as great a force for social change,  .. 
 'routinized', by this way of thinking:
 

 Prophetic Charisma: The Psychology of Revolutionary Religious Personalities 
(1997) by Len Oakes
 Introduction by Corey Donovan
 What is this thing called charisma?
 [T]he idea of a divinely inspired power or talent is as old as mankind. The 
oldest surviving work of fiction, the Epic of Gilgamesh, tells of a 
warrior-king, part god and part man, who quests for the secret of eternal life. 
He has many adventures in the lands of the gods, and even attains that which he 
seeks, only to have it torn from his grasp at the last moment. He returns home 
convinced of the futility of his quest and knowing that "the central fact of my 
life is my death" (Kopp 1972, 31; Heidel 1968).
 

 The word "charisma" comes from the name of the Greek goddess Charis, who 
personified grace, beauty, purity, and altruism. Possession of these faculties 
came to be known as charisma. [Footnote: The Greek word is charizesthai, and it 
means favor or gift of divine origin. The Greeks do not seem to have associated 
this with the kind of demagogic and irrational leadership of which Plato wrote 
in his Gorgias, although they were well aware of the rhapsodic "Dionysian" 
aspect of life; Plato was a member of the Elysian mystery cult. For Aristotle 
the megalopsychos was the great man who dares to live alone in secret worship 
of his own soul. 
 The Romans called the hero’s charismatic power facilitas and believed it was 
derived from the gods.] 
 Later usages derive from St. Paul, who saw it as a gift of grace from God: "To 
one there is given through the spirit the message of wisdom, to another the 
message of knowledge by means of the same spirit, to another faith by the same 
spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one spirit, to another miraculous 
powers, to another prophecy" (1 Corinthians 12:8-10).
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

  charisma?
 

 There are scholarly teachers, gurus who teach technique, and saints who give 
help and can directly transform people. With any one or in combination 
(scholars, gurus, saints)  then what is the experience of charisma and where is 
the TMO now with charisma?  Charisma evidently can fluctuate in time in people 
and movements.   
  
 What is charisma?
 One author (Oakes) talks about 'prophetic charisma', on a different continuum 
than what we may see as narcissism, or narcissistic personalities and disorders.
  
 "Pure charisma thus is personal and is based on face-to-face contact and 
feelings of trust, duty, and love on the part of the followers (Schweitzer 
1984, 33). It is creative and revolutionary, for "in its pure form charisma . . 
. may be said to exist only in the process of originating" (Weber 1964, 364). 
At the other end of the continuum, routinized charisma describes what happens 
when a leader’s charisma is thinly dispersed throughout the followers who act 
in the leader’s name, typically after he has died. It may survive many 
generations and underlie a stable social order, but it is conservative and is 
not a force for social change (Miyahara 1983, 370)."
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Nine years on, I'd exhale if I were them.:-) 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Ollie, yours seems a fair critique of the situation here by comparison.  The 
True-believers of the TM meditating community are hopeful that Dr. Nader is 
that person though he is not too available to be experienced or quoted unless 
you have the 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Charismatic Spiritual

[dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

 In using charisma to explain social change and heroic leaders, Weber did not 
intend merely to invent a dry academic term. Rather, he saw charisma as 
representing the incarnate life force itself, "the thrust of the sap in the 
tree and the blood in the veins," an elemental or daemonic power (Dow 1978).  
-Prophetic Charisma.. Intro.

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 What of charisma, spiritually? 
  Where is TM with charisma?
 Evidently it would seem that TM's charisma is now dispersed and routinized, 
..and not necessarily as great a force for social change,  .. 
 'routinized', by this way of thinking:
 

 Prophetic Charisma: The Psychology of Revolutionary Religious Personalities 
(1997) by Len Oakes
 Introduction by Corey Donovan
 What is this thing called charisma?
 [T]he idea of a divinely inspired power or talent is as old as mankind. The 
oldest surviving work of fiction, the Epic of Gilgamesh, tells of a 
warrior-king, part god and part man, who quests for the secret of eternal life. 
He has many adventures in the lands of the gods, and even attains that which he 
seeks, only to have it torn from his grasp at the last moment. He returns home 
convinced of the futility of his quest and knowing that "the central fact of my 
life is my death" (Kopp 1972, 31; Heidel 1968).
 

 The word "charisma" comes from the name of the Greek goddess Charis, who 
personified grace, beauty, purity, and altruism. Possession of these faculties 
came to be known as charisma. [Footnote: The Greek word is charizesthai, and it 
means favor or gift of divine origin. The Greeks do not seem to have associated 
this with the kind of demagogic and irrational leadership of which Plato wrote 
in his Gorgias, although they were well aware of the rhapsodic "Dionysian" 
aspect of life; Plato was a member of the Elysian mystery cult. For Aristotle 
the megalopsychos was the great man who dares to live alone in secret worship 
of his own soul. 
 The Romans called the hero’s charismatic power facilitas and believed it was 
derived from the gods.] 
 Later usages derive from St. Paul, who saw it as a gift of grace from God: "To 
one there is given through the spirit the message of wisdom, to another the 
message of knowledge by means of the same spirit, to another faith by the same 
spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one spirit, to another miraculous 
powers, to another prophecy" (1 Corinthians 12:8-10).
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

  charisma?
 

 There are scholarly teachers, gurus who teach technique, and saints who give 
help and can directly transform people. With any one or in combination 
(scholars, gurus, saints)  then what is the experience of charisma and where is 
the TMO now with charisma?  Charisma evidently can fluctuate in time in people 
and movements.   
  
 What is charisma?
 One author (Oakes) talks about 'prophetic charisma', on a different continuum 
than what we may see as narcissism, or narcissistic personalities and disorders.
  
 "Pure charisma thus is personal and is based on face-to-face contact and 
feelings of trust, duty, and love on the part of the followers (Schweitzer 
1984, 33). It is creative and revolutionary, for "in its pure form charisma . . 
. may be said to exist only in the process of originating" (Weber 1964, 364). 
At the other end of the continuum, routinized charisma describes what happens 
when a leader’s charisma is thinly dispersed throughout the followers who act 
in the leader’s name, typically after he has died. It may survive many 
generations and underlie a stable social order, but it is conservative and is 
not a force for social change (Miyahara 1983, 370)."
 


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Nine years on, I'd exhale if I were them.:-) 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Ollie, yours seems a fair critique of the situation here by comparison.  The 
True-believers of the TM meditating community are hopeful that Dr. Nader is 
that person though he is not too available to be experienced or quoted unless 
you have the money to be on courses with him.  Those who have been with him 
seem to ‘like’ him.   It remains to be more widely seen what the ‘nature’ of 
his charisma is in leadership going forward.  
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 True, the spectrum of consciousness available through TM and TMSP is complete, 
spanning the transcendental states of consciousness, and bringing one to 
Brahman. None of these other programs cover such a range, though they can be 
helpful in offering a new, partial perspective on the journey. 
 

 The kicker with the TMO is there is no one living in Brahman heading the 
organization, so that these other programs are seen in opposition, and as 
threats, instead of seeing them as a partial picture, with the complete 
definition of the growth