[FairfieldLife] Re: Does Consciousness Collapse the Wave Funtion?
Yifuxero, Living entities with less than human consciousness cannot collapse the wave function. The reason is that a conscious being should be able to turn on the electron counter at the time when the experiment is conducted. So, I don't believe a rooster would be capable to do that. Similarly, I don't believe a monkey or an ape can do that. As such, these animals cannot collapse the wave function. In addition, the point I'm making here pertains to the Copenhagen Interpretation in quantum physics. The reason is that the dual property of light, as a wave and a particle, leads to the theory that the world operates like a virtual reality. Specifically, all of us may be like avatars in an advanced computer simulation. Perhaps this is the reason the flying sutra will eventually develop into the floating stage sometime in the future. IMO, this is the reason why TM makes your desires happen or manifest in the world. Why? Because conscious beings collapse the wave function. IOW, human beings can distinguish the difference between a random event from an intentional act or desire. These points can be discussed in detail if anyone is interested. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Thxyour last statement on TM doesn't make sense. Lots of things demonstrate consciousness. You haven't given any evidence showing that (specifically), TM is in any way a superior mode of Consciousness as opposed to (say), a rooster observing the experiment and with his beak, making a choice. Even cockroaches can be observers, but they don't practice TM Why does TM demonstrate a superior mode of consciousness as opposed to an experimenter not practicing TM?. ... Besides, you haven't answered the question of times/places in which there were no conscious observers. (then no wave function collapse). Next, the Copenhagen Interpretation (which relies on conscious observers), is only one of several major Interpretations (at least 8), that rely on the concept of collapse of the wave function resulting from conscious observers. David Bohm's quantum interpretation has no need for conscious observers and states that the collapse of the wave function is simply an observation of the state at that time. Likewise, Hugh Everett's Multiverse interpretation doesn't need the collapse of the wave function. Last but least, you can't dance around the entry posted from Wikipedia on Hagelin. His statements have little credit outside of TM "True Believers". And talking about agendas, it's clear he has one, and it's not "the truth".
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Does Consciousness Collapse the Wave Funtion?
Archer Angel, On the contrary, there have been subsequent experiments that included when the observation or measurement was conducted by a human observer. In one specific experiment, the scientists made the observation after the electron passed the double slit. They concluded that the electron must have backtracked in time to change state from a particle to a wave. There is another experiment called the delayed erasure which is mysterious and is a prime example that the universe operates like a virtual reality, or the movie, the Matrix. The members can discuss this point in detail, if there is any interest. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : These examples also do not take into account that experiments have been done to eliminate human awareness making a choice, the choice as to what to measure being made mechanically by apparatus after particles are on their way. The same correlations occur, so the collapse of the wave function, and spooky correlation between particles does not require human awareness during the experiment, as yifuxero mentions below, no conscious observer. To paraphrase Richard Feynman, we really do not understand quantum mechanics. We observe these effects but we do not know why it is that way. Meditation does bring about unusual experiences, but no serious discovery of relativity or quantum mechanics has ever been discovered using TM techniques. The kind of knowledge that meditation brings is of a different sort, and mixing that with physics is problematical to say the least. From: "yifuxero@... [FairfieldLife]" To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 1:34 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Does Consciousness Collapse the Wave Funtion? Thxyour last statement on TM doesn't make sense. Lots of things demonstrate consciousness. You haven't given any evidence showing that (specifically), TM is in any way a superior mode of Consciousness as opposed to (say), a rooster observing the experiment and with his beak, making a choice. Even cockroaches can be observers, but they don't practice TM Why does TM demonstrate a superior mode of consciousness as opposed to an experimenter not practicing TM?. ... Besides, you haven't answered the question of times/places in which there were no conscious observers. (then no wave function collapse). Next, the Copenhagen Interpretation (which relies on conscious observers), is only one of several major Interpretations (at least 8), that rely on the concept of collapse of the wave function resulting from conscious observers. David Bohm's quantum interpretation has no need for conscious observers and states that the collapse of the wave function is simply an observation of the state at that time. Likewise, Hugh Everett's Multiverse interpretation doesn't need the collapse of the wave function. Last but least, you can't dance around the entry posted from Wikipedia on Hagelin. His statements have little credit outside of TM "True Believers". And talking about agendas, it's clear he has one, and it's not "the truth".
[FairfieldLife] Re: Does Consciousness Collapse the Wave Funtion?
Carde, This is similar to what Hagelin stated about the flying sutra. So, the power of intention is the key to success for those who have consciousness. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : Just my two cents: I feel like for instance the flying suutra collapses the wave function associated with gravity to the "wrong" direction...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Does Consciousness Collapse the Wave Funtion?
I note that the TM scientists have never tried to measure the effect of the
flying sutra in regards to gravity. It should be fairly easy to do. There seems
to be an avoidance of doing any experiment that would conclusively demonstrate
whether this effect is real or not.
On a macroscopic scale (the size of a bacterium, or a human body, or a planet)
the wave function is always collapsed except under very unusual conditions, for
example, helium near absolute zero.
From: "he...@hotmail.com [FairfieldLife]"
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 10:41 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Does Consciousness Collapse the Wave Funtion?
Just my two cents:
I feel like for instance the flying suutra collapses the wave function
associated with gravity to the "wrong" direction...
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Does Consciousness Collapse the Wave Funtion?
These examples also do not take into account that experiments have been done to
eliminate human awareness making a choice, the choice as to what to measure
being made mechanically by apparatus after particles are on their way.
The same correlations occur, so the collapse of the wave function, and spooky
correlation between particles does not require human awareness during the
experiment, as yifuxero mentions below, no conscious observer.
To paraphrase Richard Feynman, we really do not understand quantum mechanics.
We observe these effects but we do not know why it is that way.
Meditation does bring about unusual experiences, but no serious discovery of
relativity or quantum mechanics has ever been discovered using TM techniques.
The kind of knowledge that meditation brings is of a different sort, and mixing
that with physics is problematical to say the least.
From: "yifux...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]"
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 1:34 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Does Consciousness Collapse the Wave Funtion?
Thxyour last statement on TM doesn't make sense. Lots of things
demonstrate consciousness. You haven't given any evidence showing that
(specifically), TM is in any way a superior mode of Consciousness as opposed to
(say), a rooster observing the experiment and with his beak, making a
choice.Even cockroaches can be observers, but they don't practice TM Why does
TM demonstrate a superior mode of consciousness as opposed to an experimenter
not practicing TM?Besides, you haven't answered the question of
times/places in which there were no conscious observers. (then no wave
function collapse).
Next, the Copenhagen Interpretation (which relies on conscious observers), is
only one of several major Interpretations (at least 8), that rely on the
concept of collapse of the wave function resulting from conscious observers.
David Bohm's quantum interpretation has no need for conscious observers and
states that the collapse of the wave function is simply an observation of the
state at that time.Likewise, Hugh Everett's Multiverse interpretation doesn't
need the collapse of the wave function.
Last but least, you can't dance around the entry posted from Wikipedia on
Hagelin. His statements have little credit outside of TM "True Believers". And
talking about agendas, it's clear he has one, and it's not "the truth".
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Does Consciousness Collapse the Wave Funtion?
Just my two cents: I feel like for instance the flying suutra collapses the wave function associated with gravity to the "wrong" direction...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Does Consciousness Collapse the Wave Funtion?
Thxyour last statement on TM doesn't make sense. Lots of things demonstrate consciousness. You haven't given any evidence showing that (specifically), TM is in any way a superior mode of Consciousness as opposed to (say), a rooster observing the experiment and with his beak, making a choice. Even cockroaches can be observers, but they don't practice TM Why does TM demonstrate a superior mode of consciousness as opposed to an experimenter not practicing TM?. ... Besides, you haven't answered the question of times/places in which there were no conscious observers. (then no wave function collapse). Next, the Copenhagen Interpretation (which relies on conscious observers), is only one of several major Interpretations (at least 8), that rely on the concept of collapse of the wave function resulting from conscious observers. David Bohm's quantum interpretation has no need for conscious observers and states that the collapse of the wave function is simply an observation of the state at that time. Likewise, Hugh Everett's Multiverse interpretation doesn't need the collapse of the wave function. Last but least, you can't dance around the entry posted from Wikipedia on Hagelin. His statements have little credit outside of TM "True Believers". And talking about agendas, it's clear he has one, and it's not "the truth".
[FairfieldLife] Re: Does Consciousness Collapse the Wave Funtion?
Yifuxero, Scientists have differing opinions about the quantum world. Hagelin's critics have an agenda to sell their point of view and denigrate Hagelin's work. But the fact remains that Hagelin is a brilliant man with a Phd. from Harvard and research credentials from CERN. You have to compare the critics' credentials before you believe what they say about Hagelin's research. By the way, the point I'm saying is not related to Hagelin's position. My point is somewhat related to what Tom Campbell, a physicist and lecturer, is saying as shown in the links I've attached in the previous posts. Lastly, the double-slit experiment is related to TM since the human observer has consciousness which collapses the wave function. Doesn't TM emphasize the value of consciousness among its practitioner? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : What does the double slit experiment have to do with TM? Haven't you read the entry in Wikipedia for John Hagelin? To Quote: " Virtually every theoretical physicist in the world rejects all of this as nonsense and the work of a crackpot, but Hagelin's case shows that crackpots can have PhDs from the Harvard Physics Department and a large number of frequently cited papers published in the best peer-reviewed journals in theoretical physics.[17] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagelin#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWoit2006205.E2.80.93206-17 Hagelin's linkage of quantum mechanics and unified field theory with consciousness was also critiqued by University of Iowa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Iowa philosophy and sociology professors Evan Fales and Barry Markovsky in 1997, in the journal Social Forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Forces. They wrote that the connection relied on similarity between properties of quantum mechanical fields and consciousness, but that the parallels Hagelin highlighted between unified field theories and the Vedas rested on ambiguity, obscurity and vague analogy supported by the construction of arbitrary similarities.John Hagelin - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagelin#cite_note-FOOTNOTEFalesMarkovsky1997511.E2.80.93525-29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagelin#cite_note-FOOTNOTEFalesMarkovsky1997511.E2.80.93525-29 John Hagelin - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagelin#cite_note-FOOTNOTEFalesMarkovsky1997511.E2.80.93525-29 John Samuel Hagelin (born June 9, 1954) is an American author, three-time candidate of the Natural Law Party for President of the United States (1992, ... View on en.wikipedia.org https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagelin#cite_note-FOOTNOTEFalesMarkovsky1997511.E2.80.93525-29 Preview by Yahoo
[FairfieldLife] Re: Does Consciousness Collapse the Wave Funtion?
What does the double slit experiment have to do with TM? Haven't you read the entry in Wikipedia for John Hagelin? To Quote: " Virtually every theoretical physicist in the world rejects all of this as nonsense and the work of a crackpot, but Hagelin's case shows that crackpots can have PhDs from the Harvard Physics Department and a large number of frequently cited papers published in the best peer-reviewed journals in theoretical physics.[17] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagelin#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWoit2006205.E2.80.93206-17 Hagelin's linkage of quantum mechanics and unified field theory with consciousness was also critiqued by University of Iowa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Iowa philosophy and sociology professors Evan Fales and Barry Markovsky in 1997, in the journal Social Forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Forces. They wrote that the connection relied on similarity between properties of quantum mechanical fields and consciousness, but that the parallels Hagelin highlighted between unified field theories and the Vedas rested on ambiguity, obscurity and vague analogy supported by the construction of arbitrary similarities.John Hagelin - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagelin#cite_note-FOOTNOTEFalesMarkovsky1997511.E2.80.93525-29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagelin#cite_note-FOOTNOTEFalesMarkovsky1997511.E2.80.93525-29 John Hagelin - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagelin#cite_note-FOOTNOTEFalesMarkovsky1997511.E2.80.93525-29 John Samuel Hagelin (born June 9, 1954) is an American author, three-time candidate of the Natural Law Party for President of the United States (1992, ... View on en.wikipedia.org https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagelin#cite_note-FOOTNOTEFalesMarkovsky1997511.E2.80.93525-29 Preview by Yahoo
[FairfieldLife] Re: Does Consciousness Collapse the Wave Funtion?
Yifuxero, This question has been asked many times by scientists to explain the "double slit" experiment. The answer has always been because of the human observer that collapsed the wave pattern in the experiment. Please see this explanation by Tom Campbell: Explained ! The Double Slit Experiment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW6Mq352f0E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW6Mq352f0E Explained ! The Double Slit Experiment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW6Mq352f0E Latest discussion http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5333 Author of "My Big Toe" (MBT) trilogy Physicist Thomas Campbell expl... View on www.youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW6Mq352f0E Preview by Yahoo When there is nobody present, the environment cannot collapse the wave function. The wave function remains at random as represented by the defraction or wave pattern shown in the experiment. In other words, would anyone hear a tree fall in the middle the forest with no people present? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote : From Physics Forum.com: Question: Is Consciousness needed to collapse the wave function? This should be obvious. Imagine a time when the earth was only rocks, lava, and volcanic eruptions with no conscious observers. This this mean that no Wave Functions were collapsed? No. the Environment does the collapsing You need to do better research before jumping to conclusions. The answer from the concensus of modern physicists. (Obviously Hagelin and Chopra are not among them): "the answer is No. experiments have proved that it's the setup that causes the "collapse" the collapse happens even when no human/living-entity is watching. now one could argue further and say/ask - how do you know if collapse has happened, even if no human is watching? there is an answer...but then there's no end to such a line of questioning... Reference Is Consciousness involved in wave function collapse? https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-consciousness-involved-in-wave-function-collapse.507154/ https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-consciousness-involved-in-wave-function-collapse.507154/ Is Consciousness involved in wave function collapse? https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-consciousness-involved-in-wave-function-collapse.507154/ Hello: I know it's a rather subjective title. But I am no expert in the subject and I've read a lot of information in the Internet that is... View on www.physicsforums.com https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-consciousness-involved-in-wave-function-collapse.507154/ Preview by Yahoo
[FairfieldLife] Re: Does Consciousness Collapse the Wave Funtion?
From Physics Forum.com: Question: Is Consciousness needed to collapse the wave function? This should be obvious. Imagine a time when the earth was only rocks, lava, and volcanic eruptions with no conscious observers. This this mean that no Wave Functions were collapsed? No. the Environment does the collapsing You need to do better research before jumping to conclusions. The answer from the concensus of modern physicists. (Obviously Hagelin and Chopra are not among them): "the answer is No. experiments have proved that it's the setup that causes the "collapse" the collapse happens even when no human/living-entity is watching. now one could argue further and say/ask - how do you know if collapse has happened, even if no human is watching? there is an answer...but then there's no end to such a line of questioning... Reference Is Consciousness involved in wave function collapse? https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-consciousness-involved-in-wave-function-collapse.507154/ https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-consciousness-involved-in-wave-function-collapse.507154/ Is Consciousness involved in wave function collapse? https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-consciousness-involved-in-wave-function-collapse.507154/ Hello: I know it's a rather subjective title. But I am no expert in the subject and I've read a lot of information in the Internet that is... View on www.physicsforums.com https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-consciousness-involved-in-wave-function-collapse.507154/ Preview by Yahoo
