Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide
I would suggest looking up Muktananda online. You can find both sites pro and con. Back in the late 70s a number of TMers including teachers read his conversations books because he answered questions that MMY wouldn't. There are a number of gurus accused of sexual impropriety including MMY. The problem of deciding to be a holy man and then later deciding that was a mistake. Better to be a tantric which is mainly a householder path. I don't keep track of shaktipat groups. If you go through the FFL archives you'll find folks discussing other groups. People in the arts tend to have heightened spiritual experiences. The arts culture it. There was even news last week of a study that showed group singing was as good as practicing yoga. On 07/16/2013 05:04 PM, Seraphita wrote: Thanks yet again. Taking on board what you say about shaktipat and book-learning, which of Muktananda's books would you recommend if I just wanted to learn about the man and his trajectory? And, with apologies for lowering the tone of the conversation, what did you make of the accusations of sexual impropriety against Mucky? As he seems to be guilty as charged (no?) does that invalidate what he had to teach? Also, do you know of any shaktipat groups in the UK that could be worth investigating? Does your group have centres (centers) over here? As regards your personal history, did you ever try psychedelics back in the day; I'm wondering if they might have been a cause of some of your experiences. (If you don't want to answer this bit, that's fine too!) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu wrote: On 07/16/2013 04:15 PM, Seraphita wrote: Thanks again. Re Beej mantras are commonly used in astrology and ayurveda . . . tells the person to repeat the mantra either in a short meditation or sometimes throughout the day (like a walking mantra). Repeating the mantra through the day (like the Hare Krishna crowd) is very different from effortless TM. The point is kinda to forget the mantra. There is the TM walking mantra for kids. And in TM the mantra is just a faint idea. FYI, I taught TM too. Re: When longer mantras are given as a public first technique then the teacher usually gives shaktipat to jump-start them. Muktananda's organization teaches this way. But the guru has to wait until his teachers have developed enough shakti to give shakipat to teach these. I was also taught by my tantra guru to teach meditation this way. You sound like the guy I need to meet! What I've read about Muktananda's shaktipat trickery has always intrigued me - he was able to produce serious shifts in his students awareness - shifts that are difficult to explain. Do you think it comes down to hypnotic suggestion? - which is what charismatic church leaders seem to practise (perhaps unconsciously). Or do you reckon there's something more going on here? It is the transference of energy or shakti. It isn't hypnosis. Tantrics are supposed to get so powerful and good at it that they can temporarily animate a dead corpse in a cremation ground. I was recently looking for a (basic, non-technical) book on shaktipat that might give me some insight: can you recommend any titles (maybe one of Muktananda's as I've not read any of his books)? It can't be learned from a book. It is really simple and there have been others on FFL who have taken some of the shaktipat courses that other Indian teachers have offered. My teacher limited me to giving it only 7 times per day when starting out. But he also only allowed me to do the technique after 5 years of instruction. Re . . . With a little zip from performing a puja before each teaching session. But a lot of people might have just picked the beej mantra up out of book and it would have worked after a while. Yes, there are some on-line TM-type instructors that have appeared recently. I remember from my own TM initiation that I felt the dive within right from the get-go. In fact, it took me completely by surprise. Those who've tried learning from a book or on-line do report benefits so I hope they're getting the same experiences but I wonder if, by missing out on that face-to-face encounter, something gets lost by the mediation of text or technology. Three years prior to learning TM I tried a meditation out of a book. I didn't expect anything but the kundalini rose to the crown chakra. It was as if I went up into the sun and coming out I was disoriented. I had been doing some yoga asanas that were taught to me by someone in the house where I was staying. Those probably helped prime me but OTOH I had spiritual experiences since childhood but nothing like the kundalini rising. So it depends. I also had a friend who was raised by Rosicrucians and was very spiritual. He got shaktipat and meditation instruction from one of Muktananda's teachers and said he didn't experience anything. Rather like Benson's
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide
Tantra is not about sex. If you find someone claiming to be a tantric and says it's about sex they're a charlatan. In the UK look up some of the Indian astrologers. Some of them are tantrics. Some may entertain a visit and answer questions. But you need to come armed with knowledge to know what to look for and separate the wheat from the chaff. I would suggest Dr. Robert Svoboda's trilogy on tantra to know what to look for. Even with my own late tantra teacher I didn't jump right in but tested him for several months. His videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/Swami999 On 07/17/2013 11:04 AM, Seraphita wrote: Yes, I'll pick up one of Muktananda's titles - been meaning to do so for a while. Re tantric reference: I always think of TM as being tantric, at least in spirit. So many religious traditions take a dim view of desire (it's always the ascetics and monks which get star billing) but tantra always claims that desire can be a royal road to enlightenment. That can include the whole sex 'n' drugs thing: wonder how many people get stuck at that level? Maharishi's basic idea that the mind naturally gravitates towards the source of bliss - his feeding the monkey image - would have struck a chord with tantrics no? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu wrote: I would suggest looking up Muktananda online. You can find both sites pro and con. Back in the late 70s a number of TMers including teachers read his conversations books because he answered questions that MMY wouldn't. There are a number of gurus accused of sexual impropriety including MMY. The problem of deciding to be a holy man and then later deciding that was a mistake. Better to be a tantric which is mainly a householder path. I don't keep track of shaktipat groups. If you go through the FFL archives you'll find folks discussing other groups. People in the arts tend to have heightened spiritual experiences. The arts culture it. There was even news last week of a study that showed group singing was as good as practicing yoga.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide
On 07/16/2013 04:15 PM, Seraphita wrote: Thanks again. Re Beej mantras are commonly used in astrology and ayurveda . . . tells the person to repeat the mantra either in a short meditation or sometimes throughout the day (like a walking mantra). Repeating the mantra through the day (like the Hare Krishna crowd) is very different from effortless TM. The point is kinda to forget the mantra. There is the TM walking mantra for kids. And in TM the mantra is just a faint idea. FYI, I taught TM too. Re: When longer mantras are given as a public first technique then the teacher usually gives shaktipat to jump-start them. Muktananda's organization teaches this way. But the guru has to wait until his teachers have developed enough shakti to give shakipat to teach these. I was also taught by my tantra guru to teach meditation this way. You sound like the guy I need to meet! What I've read about Muktananda's shaktipat trickery has always intrigued me - he was able to produce serious shifts in his students awareness - shifts that are difficult to explain. Do you think it comes down to hypnotic suggestion? - which is what charismatic church leaders seem to practise (perhaps unconsciously). Or do you reckon there's something more going on here? It is the transference of energy or shakti. It isn't hypnosis. Tantrics are supposed to get so powerful and good at it that they can temporarily animate a dead corpse in a cremation ground. I was recently looking for a (basic, non-technical) book on shaktipat that might give me some insight: can you recommend any titles (maybe one of Muktananda's as I've not read any of his books)? It can't be learned from a book. It is really simple and there have been others on FFL who have taken some of the shaktipat courses that other Indian teachers have offered. My teacher limited me to giving it only 7 times per day when starting out. But he also only allowed me to do the technique after 5 years of instruction. Re . . . With a little zip from performing a puja before each teaching session. But a lot of people might have just picked the beej mantra up out of book and it would have worked after a while. Yes, there are some on-line TM-type instructors that have appeared recently. I remember from my own TM initiation that I felt the dive within right from the get-go. In fact, it took me completely by surprise. Those who've tried learning from a book or on-line do report benefits so I hope they're getting the same experiences but I wonder if, by missing out on that face-to-face encounter, something gets lost by the mediation of text or technology. Three years prior to learning TM I tried a meditation out of a book. I didn't expect anything but the kundalini rose to the crown chakra. It was as if I went up into the sun and coming out I was disoriented. I had been doing some yoga asanas that were taught to me by someone in the house where I was staying. Those probably helped prime me but OTOH I had spiritual experiences since childhood but nothing like the kundalini rising. So it depends. I also had a friend who was raised by Rosicrucians and was very spiritual. He got shaktipat and meditation instruction from one of Muktananda's teachers and said he didn't experience anything. Rather like Benson's Relaxation Response! One of the most striking things about Maharishi's decision to set-up his teacher-training assembly line was his confidence that they'd be able to transmit the TM technique and get guaranteed results. How could he be so confident when he was dealing with something so intangible? Because indeed it is a very simple technique. And as I mentioned something like astrologers or ayurvedic practitioners give in a less structured way. I had a professor of astrology at a Hindu university recommend the same mantra as the TM advanced technique after seeing my chart. By the way, when I refer to hypnosis above, that's not a put-down as hypnosis is clearly beneficial in certain situations. My tantric guru became a licensed hypno-therapist. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu wrote: Beej mantras are commonly used in astrology and ayurveda. They don't take much to work and the astrologer or ayurvedic practitioner just tells the person to repeat the mantra either in a short meditation or sometimes throughout the day (like a walking mantra).. Longer mantras like the advanced technique require more to work. When longer mantras are given as a public first technique then the teacher usually gives shaktipat to jumpstart them. Muktanda's organization teaches this way. But the guru has to wait until his teachers have developed enough shakti to give shakipat to teach these. I was also taught by my tantra guru to teach meditation this way. Maharishi wanted to create a lot of teachers so in a way went with the beej techniques ala astrology or ayurveda with a little zip from performing a puja
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide
Look empty baby I really understand your frustration. It's never easy accepting your mother's lover. The only Raakshasaas my dear little child are the inner ones. So arise Oh mighty, naughty, haughty, empty and slay your inner Raakshasaas !!! Love - Shiva. On Jul 15, 2013, at 6:41 AM, emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com wrote: I correct myself ... your not even a rakshasa. Only a fool claims to be a devi-fucking shiva. Yer just a bragging little pasu. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula wrote: Oh empty baby I'm so sorry - I didn't know you were a stupid, seventy year old too, I apologize for hurting your senile, sensitive feelings. Anyway I am going to clear all your doubts today. This will be tricky for you, but take your time OK? Who is a Brahma-raakshasaa? The playful, loving one who sleeps with the Devi or the one who insults Shiva in a senile induced rage? On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 10:43 AM, emptybill emptybill@... wrote: ** Ravioli - You must have been out last night drinking martinis again … all along chanting your beloved Rahu stotra-s as you raise your glass to Ravana. You're acting like a brahma-rakshasa again. Yep, them past-life sudra vasanas are hard to overcome. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula wrote: Don't get clever with me Xeno baby, I don't have a whole lot of time monitoring, correcting you. I have lot of responsibilities and my time is better served elsewhere than baby sitting a stupid, senile, seventy year old having trouble sticking to his sole trick. No more slip ups OK? Now focus and reply to Emily, don't veer from the template we have identified.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide
On Jul 15, 2013, at 10:39 AM, Richard J. Williams rich...@rwilliams.us wrote: Oh empty baby I'm so sorry - I didn't know you were a stupid, seventy year old too... emptybill: I correct myself ... your not even a rakshasa. Only a fool claims to be a devi-fucking shiva. Yer just a bragging little pasu. You'd think that a pundit over seventy years of age would have taught himself a little Sanskrit by now. Everyone knows that the Aryans who raped India called the indigenous population 'rakshasas' which translated means 'nigger-devil'. What took you so long to show your racial prejudice? Go figure. Stop all this garbage Richard. According to the Dictionary of Hinduism, the term Raksasa is ...an epithet applied in the Rig Veda to Indian indigenes whose characteristics were likened to demons of popular folklore. Most of the native resistance to the Aryan infiltration was made from fortified positions, that offered by less organized tribes consisted of guerrilla tactics from forest hiding places, which Indra was constantly invoked to burn and destroy. (R.V. I.76,3, etc) (245). Reference: Dictionary of Hinduism Its Mythology, Folklore, Philosophy, Literature, and History By M. and J. Stutley Harper Row, 1977 old too, I apologize for hurting your senile, sensitive feelings. Anyway I am going to clear all your doubts today. This will be tricky for you, but take your time OK? Who is a Brahma-raakshasaa? The playful, loving one who sleeps with the Devi or the one who insults Shiva in a senile induced rage?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide
Beej mantras are commonly used in astrology and ayurveda. They don't take much to work and the astrologer or ayurvedic practitioner just tells the person to repeat the mantra either in a short meditation or sometimes throughout the day (like a walking mantra).. Longer mantras like the advanced technique require more to work. When longer mantras are given as a public first technique then the teacher usually gives shaktipat to jumpstart them. Muktanda's organization teaches this way. But the guru has to wait until his teachers have developed enough shakti to give shakipat to teach these. I was also taught by my tantra guru to teach meditation this way. Maharishi wanted to create a lot of teachers so in a way went with the beej techniques ala astrology or ayurveda with a little zip from performing a puja before each teaching session. But a lot of people might have just picked the beej mantra up out of book and it would have worked after a while. Not so much so by taking a longer mantra out of a book. Certain beej mantras are considered useful for certain stages of life. On 07/15/2013 03:50 PM, Seraphita wrote: Thanks. Re TM is a very simple technique in more ways than one . . . and thus can be taught by about anyone : which is its selling point also, of course. Wherever you are in the world you know a Big Mac is going to taste like a Big Mac back home. Perhaps Maharishi's genius was precisely in providing a standardised form of meditation identical around the globe - which also made it useful for replicable scientific study. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu wrote: Sounds like you would do better to learn something more advanced than TM and have instruction with a one on one teacher as I had. TM is a very simple technique in more ways than one. Most mantra meditation taught to the public by other systems is more like the TM advanced technique. TM is more like the mantras given for astrology or ayurveda and thus can be taught by about anyone.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide
Oh empty baby I'm so sorry - I didn't know you were a stupid, seventy year old too, I apologize for hurting your senile, sensitive feelings. Anyway I am going to clear all your doubts today. This will be tricky for you, but take your time OK? Who is a Brahma-raakshasaa? The playful, loving one who sleeps with the Devi or the one who insults Shiva in a senile induced rage? On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 10:43 AM, emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com wrote: ** Ravioli - You must have been out last night drinking martinis again … all along chanting your beloved Rahu stotra-s as you raise your glass to Ravana. You're acting like a brahma-rakshasa again. Yep, them past-life sudra vasanas are hard to overcome. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula wrote: Don't get clever with me Xeno baby, I don't have a whole lot of time monitoring, correcting you. I have lot of responsibilities and my time is better served elsewhere than baby sitting a stupid, senile, seventy year old having trouble sticking to his sole trick. No more slip ups OK? Now focus and reply to Emily, don't veer from the template we have identified.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide
On Jul 14, 2013, at 3:55 PM, authfriend authfri...@yahoo.com wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula chivukula.ravi@... wrote: Oh empty baby I'm so sorry - I didn't know you were a stupid, seventy year old too, I apologize for hurting your senile, sensitive feelings. Hey, Ravi sweetie, easy on the 70-year-olds, OK? I'm 71, and I ain't senile. You're still so young, 70 seems ancient to you. (I don't know how old empty is, but Xeno is some years older than me. He could be 80 for all we know.) Hmm..I thought you were more like 39. God - time to see a therapist and see if I can direct my crush elsewhere. You have shattered me dear Judy.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide
Lawson, Happy Anniversary yesterday! From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 2:34 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide Everyone is different. One thing I've noted about 40 years (as of yesterday) TM practice is that I still don't know how to do it. I find it fascinating that anyone has discovered a way to do it (whatever it is) better. L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Seraphita s3raphita@... wrote: Franklin Merrell-Wolff (younger readers will have to look him up on Wikipedia as he's fallen into obscurity in recent years) claimed that he never learned a single meditation practice that he didn't have to tweak before he could get the maximum benefits from the practice. I have to confess, I've had the same experience with TM. The effortless repetition (or favouring) of the mantra for sure elicited some dramatic changes in consciousness, including (on rounding courses) experiences of Richard Bucke-style cosmic consciousness. But the TM technique always insisted one concentrate (if concentrate is the right word) on hearing the subtle sound of the syllable - with no reference given to where ones vision (perhaps a better expression is inner vision) might be centred. I've since found that, for me, allowing my inner vision awareness to centre on the space immediately in front of my eyes greatly enhances the effects of TM and makes me more centred immediately after a mediation session. (I'm not actually crossed-eyed (!) during my sessions, but presumably the location does suggest the Ajna chakra.) I've heard that other spiritual groups recommend centring ones attention on the Ajna chakra if you're more the thinking type - that would describe me - but they also recommend centring attention on the heart chakra if you're more the touchy-feely type. By the way, dire warnings are given (especially by Theosophical-influenced groups) on allowing one's attention to centre on the lower - the root or genital chakras - unless you're sexually pure as that can increase one's libido and lead to sexual obsessions - or sex addiction as modern parlance has it. Now, only being myself your bog-standard meditator, I'm curious if other (more advanced) FFL posters have experienced a similar effect to me. That is, combining mantra favouring with relaxed, inner visual attention centred in front of the eyes has improved your results. And also I'm curious if those of you who took TM-sidha training, or trained as teachers, ever heard Maharishi mention chakras to your inner core of true believers . . . By the way, if what I'm saying sounds presumptuous why not give it a try yourself for a few days?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide
Hi Seraphita, I like that bog standard phrase. Actually lots of spiritual teachers now talk about embodied awakening. As usual, there's all kinds of opinions about it, especially as it relates to chakras, though some don't talk much about chakras at all. For example, Saniel Bonder who came from Adida's tradition, left it and founded Waking Down in Mutuality. The word *down* there refers to both waking down into the body and down into the so called negative emotions. OTOH, Kundalini Vidya of Patanjali Kundalini Yoga Center in Knoxville, TN talks about first an ascent, wherein Shakti becomes reunited with Shiva in the crown. And then a descent wherein together they enliven all the chakras. I'm giving you a VERY condensed version of their teaching but can say more if you're interested. Theirs is a very rich teaching IMHO and worth checking out especially if someone feels stuck. In the head or anywhere else too! From: Seraphita s3raph...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 9:57 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide Perhaps they're flabbergasted by my temerity : ) Duncan Barford in his delightful (and amusingly-entitled) little book, Handbook for the Recently Enlightened, suggests that those who pursue the bog-standard head-trip meditation techniques can end up enlightened but their enlightenment can be of a rather autistic nature. Think Osho/Gurdjieff/Aleister Crowley/Maharishi/Robin Carlsen/ . . . A fully-rounded enlightenment needs all the chakras opened in sequence. Perhaps those who have genuine but limited, autistic, awakenings end up founding cults - like Osho - but those who have the full complement of awakened chakras - Jesus (?), Buddha (?) - found world-historical religions?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide
marshy did found his own religion, sort of a cut rate westernized version of Hinduism with himself subtly placed as a replacement for Bhrama. From: Seraphita s3raph...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:57 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote: I'm surprised the TM purists have not taken you to task for suggesting the technique can be improved. Perhaps they're flabbergasted by my temerity : ) Duncan Barford in his delightful (and amusingly-entitled) little book, Handbook for the Recently Enlightened, suggests that those who pursue the bog-standard head-trip meditation techniques can end up enlightened but their enlightenment can be of a rather autistic nature. Think Osho/Gurdjieff/Aleister Crowley/Maharishi/Robin Carlsen/ . . . A fully-rounded enlightenment needs all the chakras opened in sequence. Perhaps those who have genuine but limited, autistic, awakenings end up founding cults - like Osho - but those who have the full complement of awakened chakras - Jesus (?), Buddha (?) - found world-historical religions?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide
On 7/11/13 12:19 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: Getting someone to learn a technique probably does not work. The person needs some sense of purpose, internally on their own, to persist with a practice. Why are you we doing this? What do you we want? Why do you we think this might work to achieve that? I think a lot of people we learn TM as the behest of others badgering them us, which probably partly accounts for the low rate of long-term meditators, something in the range of 10% to 20% of people who learn. Xeno baby - you are losing focus, veering off your persona here - watch it !!! I corrected your post, corrections in Red
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to improve TM practice - a heretic's guide
On Jul 11, 2013, at 7:23 PM, "Xenophaneros Anartaxius" anartax...@yahoo.com wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ravi Chivukula chivukula.ravi@... wrote: On 7/11/13 12:19 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius wrote: Getting someone to learn a technique probably does not work. The person needs some sense of purpose, internally on their own, to persist with a practice. Why are you we doing this? What do you we want? Why do you we think this might work to achieve that? I think a lot of people we learn TM as the behest of others badgering them us, which probably partly accounts for the low rate of long-term meditators, something in the range of 10% to 20% of people who learn. Xeno baby - you are losing focus, veering off your persona here - watch it !!! I corrected your post, corrections in Red Yes, but what if I were color blind, had protanopia? This is found in about 8% of males. You cannot be certain I can see what you are talking about. Anyway, Yahoo managed to completely strip out what you wrote when I opened the reply window. So any reply will make little sense to anyone reading my reply. I am sure that suits you fine. Don't get clever with me Xeno baby, I don't have a whole lot of time monitoring, correcting you. I have lot of responsibilities and my time is better served elsewhere than baby sitting a stupid, senile, seventy year old having trouble sticking to his sole trick. No more slip ups OK? Now focus and reply to Emily, don't veer from the template we have identified. inline: us.gifinline: stime=1373595813
