Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
I think that is up to each individual. I personally do not do late term spays where the kittens have to be euthanized as they take them out, unless there is some very good reason like the health of the mother. I do early spays. On 12/13/06, Tad Burnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And then there is the question of a pregnant mother... Is it OK to abort the unborn babies ??? TenHouseCats wrote: no, i wouldn't. it's a lot like, natural. or, organic. then there are the ones who won't euthanize even when the animals are clearly suffering, which to me is as bad as killing healthy positives have you read the asilomar records, which is what the maddie's fund no-kill nation stuff is based on? damned if i've ever been able to get a straight answer from anyone on whether FIVs/FeLVs fit their definition On 12/13/06, Phaewryn - Controversy Queen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You'd be shocked at the actual definition of no kill in shelter circles. In most, it simply means that when they run out of space, they stop taking in new animals, rather than just killing the ones that have been there the longest. Their testing policy, and euthanasia policy outside of the space issue has NO RELATION to their thinking of themselves as no kill. There are countless shelters listed on many lists as no kill, shelters that PROUDLY claim to be no kill, shelters that picket-toting hard-core activists support as no kill, yet, the vast majority of them, if you browse the list of cats they have up for adoption, all say cat has been tested negative for FELV and FIV, and they don't list a single FELV+ or FIV+ cat on their website for adoption. If you take the time to email them and ask, Do you adopt out FELV+ or FIV+ cats? most of them either choose to NOT REPLY, or reply back and say they don't. No kill? I don't think so... but the majority of people in rescue circles consider them no kill. To me, no kill means that you DON'T KILL any animals unless it is SUFFERING and BEYOND the point of recovery. Not so for most people though. Phaewryn Please save Whitey! http://ucat.us/Whitey.html VT low cost SpayNeuter, and Emergency Financial Assistance for cat owners: http://ucat.us/VermontLowCost.html Special Needs Cat Resources: http://ucat.us/domesticcatlinks.html -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine AIM / YAHOO: TenHouseCats MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 289856892 -- Vist the Rescuties store and save a kitty life! http://astore.amazon.com/rescuties-20
Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
I may be wrong but I will make an educated guess The shelter in question here is the largest No Kill shelter in the WORLD The number of animals they rescue is astronomical compared to the shelters that most of us know of Yet even at this they are only able to put a very small dent in the 6 MILLION animals that are put to sleep simple because there is no space for them all in this world... Any animal that they rescue means another that will be put down... This shelter is giving Jeni and other volunteers a chance, even if it is short, to find someone who will give this kitty a home... Most shelters would not even do this... I am sure this shelter has vets that know the the risks but they also know which animals have the best chance of being adopted and that is the desired end result... Not just keeping an animal alive in a cage If someone on here can take this kitty then this is where we should step in and help... But as a number of people keep reminding me... You can't save them all... And neither can the shelters.. Spay/ Neuter is the answer Tad Rosenfeldt, Diane wrote: Jeni, I hope this baby finds a home in time. BUT... The reason Phaewryn's comments were so pointed is that from what you've posted since your initial got to find a home post, it's not clear that YOU understand what she and others have been saying, much less that you're willing to forward this info to your shelter. You say you can't change the shelter's ways, and maybe you can't, but you could at least find out whether they know what they're doing, know the difference between testing positive for Corona virus and actually having FIP, and not just using the Corona test to issue death sentences, and pass along all the info that's been provided. (It's a lot like what we've been learning lately in those TV ads about cervical cancer -- lots of women HAVE the papilloma virus that CAN cause it, but that doesn't mean they'll get cancer -- so merely having the virus does not necessarily mean having cervical cancer. Testing positive for Corona virus is meaningless in the absence of symptoms, since there IS no test for living non-symptomatic animals that shows FIP.) Unless I missed something, when asked if the kitten has symptoms, you haven't been real clear about that either, you just say that apparently she has dry FIP without actually saying she's got x symptom and y symptom. This kitten is, of course, important, but if she actually has FIP her time is limited no matter what. If, however, she merely tests positive for Corona and has no symptoms, and is on death row anyway, then there's a larger danger for all the cats in your shelter's care. If saving one kitten makes you feel good (although that's not a great motive) think how good you'd feel if you helped your shelter reform its practices. Diane R. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JENI RECA Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 11:01 PM To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home thank you for all the information and the websites, and hopefully I will find her a home. I was truly offended by some of the comments you wrote to me. I will not let you judge me in that way, but it seems that you have already have. Jeni From: Jennifer Phaewryn O'Gwynn [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 23:33:57 -0500 Did you read any of the literature I sent? Because it doesn't sound like you did. FIP is NOT CONTAGIOUS. Corona virus is contagious, but 80% to 100% of cats in shelters ALREADY HAVE CORONA. Perhaps you may want to read the literature. How do you know you can't change the shelter's policy, how many times have you tried in the past? I would think that once every 3 to 6 months wouldn't be too often (picketing out front sometimes helps, but these days that may get you imprisoned as a terrorist). Or, who knows, maybe saving this one cat is enough for you, and your life mission is complete, who I am to judge? I hope you find her a home, and you live the rest of your days in blissful peace and happiness (at least until the shelter starts testing all their cats and decides to kill them ALL since they likely ALL test corona positive). Like they say, maybe you can't save every life, but to the one you do save, it means everything! What really matters is that you feel good inside, and that you can honestly look back on this in the future and say I did the best I could and be at peace with that. That's all any of us can really do. (I just speak from experience, as I know I look back on my life and regret all the I could have done mores I left behind.) Have you posted her on the FIP cats and kittens for adoption section of the bemikitties adoption website yet?
Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
How can it be No Kill if it kills cats simply for testing positive for corona? That is not No Kill. I think the largest actual No Kill shelter is probably Best Friends in Utah, which has several thousand cats and dogs at a time and does not kill based on tests. Michelle In a message dated 12/13/2006 11:13:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I may be wrong but I will make an educated guess The shelter in question here is the largest No Kill shelter in the WORLD
Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
So then the cat with the positive corona titer is not going to be killed? A high corona titer does not cause suffering. Michelle In a message dated 12/13/2006 11:40:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It does not kill at all unless it is to end the suffering of an animal. Kelly
Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
And do they except every cat that comes to their door with no medical records ??? Our local county shelter likes to call themselves almost no kill... But I have 2 old cat that were an owner turn in that they refused to take because they were 8 years old so the owner brought them to my vet to be PTS... My vet talked him into signing them over to him to see if he could find them a home... The shelter I am thinking of may just hold the record for the most adoptions and that may be because its been around the longest Or as I said I may be wrong Tad Kelly L wrote: At 08:27 AM 12/13/2006, you wrote: It does not kill at all unless it is to end the suffering of an animal. Kelly How can it be No Kill if it kills cats simply for testing positive for corona? That is not No Kill. I think the largest actual No Kill shelter is probably Best Friends in Utah, which has several thousand cats and dogs at a time and does not kill based on tests. Michelle In a message dated 12/13/2006 11:13:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I may be wrong but I will make an educated guess The shelter in question here is the largest No Kill shelter in the WORLD No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.16/582 - Release Date: 12/11/2006
Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
We have a Humane Society no kill shelter fairly close to me. Their policy for accepting owner relinquished animals is very strict, only the most adoptable animals are admitted to the program. Completely understandable. I heard a very disturbing report from a rescue friend of mine that some of the animals that are there too long, or are deemed unadoptable are sent to the pound for disposal. No kill is a highly debatable concept. There are worse things than death, like a life sentence of caged solitary confinement for aggressive animals that are not able to be socialized or rehabilitated. I don't know anything about the shelter in question and am coming to this thread late, but perhaps their standards of euthanasia are uncomfortably drastic because they are labeled no kill and are doing their best for the animals that have a better chance at finding a true forever home. Everyone in rescue has to face hard choices. Perhaps we don't have all the facts that would help us understand exactly what is motivating this policy. All we can do is put our hard earned knowledge out there and do our best to help it find the ears of those in need. Blessings to all those in need, four leggers and two, Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How can it be No Kill if it kills cats simply for testing positive for corona? That is not No Kill. I think the largest actual No Kill shelter is probably Best Friends in Utah, which has several thousand cats and dogs at a time and does not kill based on tests. Michelle In a message dated 12/13/2006 11:13:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I may be wrong but I will make an educated guess The shelter in question here is the largest No Kill shelter in the WORLD
Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
Kelley Saveika wrote: My rescue is no kill. That doesn't mean that we accept every animal. We aren't responsible for the actions of the people whose cats or dogs we don't take in. But I bet if you did a follow up on the animals that you don't accept the end result is death... This rescue thing is sort of like religion... There are many ways to believe.. On this list many of us spend a lot of time and money to add a few months of quality life to FeLV+ cats life Others may choose to add years to a healthy cats life... Who is to say which is right... The shelter is doing great job at saving lives and Jeni is doing a great job in finding adoptions for them and they should be praised for their efforts not criticized for not finding homes for all of them. Tad -- http://astore.amazon.com/rescuties-20
Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
On 12/13/06, Tad Burnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kelley Saveika wrote: My rescue is no kill. That doesn't mean that we accept every animal. We aren't responsible for the actions of the people whose cats or dogs we don't take in. But I bet if you did a follow up on the animals that you don't accept the end result is death... We do what we can to make sure it won't be, but we still do not hold ourselves responsible for the actions of others. If we did, we'd be even crazier than we are now. This rescue thing is sort of like religion... There are many ways to believe.. On this list many of us spend a lot of time and money to add a few months of quality life to FeLV+ cats life Others may choose to add years to a healthy cats life... Who is to say which is right... The shelter is doing great job at saving lives and Jeni is doing a great job in finding adoptions for them and they should be praised for their efforts not criticized for not finding homes for all of them. I haven't seen anyone criticizing this shelter for not finding homes for all the animals. The only criticism I have seen is for having crazy policies. At least 80% of cats in a rescue/shelter situation will have been exposed to corona virus, so if this shelter is in fact euthanizing all cats that have been exposed to it, they are euthanizing 8 out of 10 cats for having been exposed to something that is in the vast, vast majority of cases, completely harmless. -- http://astore.amazon.com/rescuties-20 -- Vist the Rescuties store and save a kitty life! http://astore.amazon.com/rescuties-20
Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
At 09:44 AM 12/13/2006, you wrote: On 12/13/06, Tad Burnett mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sadly many shelters kill because if RingwormWe are preaching here to the choir .I don't think it is far fetched to say all of us here would and do all we can for our animals, My shelter has 44 cats. I handle it all alone and pay for it all by myself. I am now non profit but do not have time to go out solicit donations. I am too busy going to the vet, handling special needs cats ( and dogs) and working to get the money to pay for all of it, I can say I am full and have no more room, I can't risk the health of those I already care for. I do have FIV and FELV. My FIV is mixed with the group and the FELV has his own room and much of the living room and a companion so he also has a good life. I have a cat with an eating disorder that stresses when other cats are around and refuses to eat, She has now doubled her weight. We just need to do our best to educate the shelter workers AND THEIR VETS. who may be advising them to do this. And then try to sleep at night with tears in our eyes for all we cannot save. Kelly www.kellyscats.zoomshare.com/ Kelley Saveika wrote: My rescue is no kill. That doesn't mean that we accept every animal. We aren't responsible for the actions of the people whose cats or dogs we don't take in. But I bet if you did a follow up on the animals that you don't accept the end result is death... We do what we can to make sure it won't be, but we still do not hold ourselves responsible for the actions of others. If we did, we'd be even crazier than we are now. This rescue thing is sort of like religion... There are many ways to believe.. On this list many of us spend a lot of time and money to add a few months of quality life to FeLV+ cats life Others may choose to add years to a healthy cats life... Who is to say which is right... The shelter is doing great job at saving lives and Jeni is doing a great job in finding adoptions for them and they should be praised for their efforts not criticized for not finding homes for all of them. I haven't seen anyone criticizing this shelter for not finding homes for all the animals. The only criticism I have seen is for having crazy policies. At least 80% of cats in a rescue/shelter situation will have been exposed to corona virus, so if this shelter is in fact euthanizing all cats that have been exposed to it, they are euthanizing 8 out of 10 cats for having been exposed to something that is in the vast, vast majority of cases, completely harmless. -- http://astore.amazon.com/rescuties-20 -- Vist the Rescuties store and save a kitty life! http://astore.amazon.com/rescuties-20http://astore.amazon.com/rescuties-20 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.18/585 - Release Date: 12/13/2006
Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
You'd be shocked at the actual definition of no kill in shelter circles. In most, it simply means that when they run out of space, they stop taking in new animals, rather than just killing the ones that have been there the longest. Their testing policy, and euthanasia policy outside of the space issue has NO RELATION to their thinking of themselves as no kill. There are countless shelters listed on many lists as no kill, shelters that PROUDLY claim to be no kill, shelters that picket-toting hard-core activists support as no kill, yet, the vast majority of them, if you browse the list of cats they have up for adoption, all say cat has been tested negative for FELV and FIV, and they don't list a single FELV+ or FIV+ cat on their website for adoption. If you take the time to email them and ask, Do you adopt out FELV+ or FIV+ cats? most of them either choose to NOT REPLY, or reply back and say they don't. No kill? I don't think so... but the majority of people in rescue circles consider them no kill. To me, no kill means that you DON'T KILL any animals unless it is SUFFERING and BEYOND the point of recovery. Not so for most people though. Phaewryn Please save Whitey! http://ucat.us/Whitey.html VT low cost SpayNeuter, and Emergency Financial Assistance for cat owners: http://ucat.us/VermontLowCost.html Special Needs Cat Resources: http://ucat.us/domesticcatlinks.html
Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
no, i wouldn't. it's a lot like, natural. or, organic. then there are the ones who won't euthanize even when the animals are clearly suffering, which to me is as bad as killing healthy positives have you read the asilomar records, which is what the maddie's fund no-kill nation stuff is based on? damned if i've ever been able to get a straight answer from anyone on whether FIVs/FeLVs fit their definition On 12/13/06, Phaewryn - Controversy Queen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You'd be shocked at the actual definition of no kill in shelter circles. In most, it simply means that when they run out of space, they stop taking in new animals, rather than just killing the ones that have been there the longest. Their testing policy, and euthanasia policy outside of the space issue has NO RELATION to their thinking of themselves as no kill. There are countless shelters listed on many lists as no kill, shelters that PROUDLY claim to be no kill, shelters that picket-toting hard-core activists support as no kill, yet, the vast majority of them, if you browse the list of cats they have up for adoption, all say cat has been tested negative for FELV and FIV, and they don't list a single FELV+ or FIV+ cat on their website for adoption. If you take the time to email them and ask, Do you adopt out FELV+ or FIV+ cats? most of them either choose to NOT REPLY, or reply back and say they don't. No kill? I don't think so... but the majority of people in rescue circles consider them no kill. To me, no kill means that you DON'T KILL any animals unless it is SUFFERING and BEYOND the point of recovery. Not so for most people though. Phaewryn Please save Whitey! http://ucat.us/Whitey.html VT low cost SpayNeuter, and Emergency Financial Assistance for cat owners: http://ucat.us/VermontLowCost.html Special Needs Cat Resources: http://ucat.us/domesticcatlinks.html -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine AIM / YAHOO: TenHouseCats MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 289856892
Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
Kelly, can I add your website to my list of no kill shelters? Phaewryn Please save Whitey! http://ucat.us/Whitey.html VT low cost SpayNeuter, and Emergency Financial Assistance for cat owners: http://ucat.us/VermontLowCost.html Special Needs Cat Resources: http://ucat.us/domesticcatlinks.html
Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
This is a good point. I guess when discussing no kill we should all agree on a definition - if you don't agree on the definition then you can easily be discussing two different things, although to me it seems easy enough - no kill means you don't kill any animals, including those with FIV and/or FELV. I support the no kill model advocated by Nathan Winograd. He doesn't advocate testing cats for FIV at all and doesn't advocate killing cats that are FELV+. He has repeatedly stated this. http://www.nokillsolutions.com Also, Best Friends has and adopts out FELV+ and FIV+ kitties. On 12/13/06, Phaewryn - Controversy Queen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You'd be shocked at the actual definition of no kill in shelter circles. In most, it simply means that when they run out of space, they stop taking in new animals, rather than just killing the ones that have been there the longest. Their testing policy, and euthanasia policy outside of the space issue has NO RELATION to their thinking of themselves as no kill. There are countless shelters listed on many lists as no kill, shelters that PROUDLY claim to be no kill, shelters that picket-toting hard-core activists support as no kill, yet, the vast majority of them, if you browse the list of cats they have up for adoption, all say cat has been tested negative for FELV and FIV, and they don't list a single FELV+ or FIV+ cat on their website for adoption. If you take the time to email them and ask, Do you adopt out FELV+ or FIV+ cats? most of them either choose to NOT REPLY, or reply back and say they don't. No kill? I don't think so... but the majority of people in rescue circles consider them no kill. To me, no kill means that you DON'T KILL any animals unless it is SUFFERING and BEYOND the point of recovery. Not so for most people though. Phaewryn Please save Whitey! http://ucat.us/Whitey.html VT low cost SpayNeuter, and Emergency Financial Assistance for cat owners: http://ucat.us/VermontLowCost.html Special Needs Cat Resources: http://ucat.us/domesticcatlinks.html -- Vist the Rescuties store and save a kitty life! http://astore.amazon.com/rescuties-20
Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
sure:) On 12/13/06, Phaewryn - Controversy Queen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kelly, can I add your website to my list of no kill shelters? Phaewryn Please save Whitey! http://ucat.us/Whitey.html VT low cost SpayNeuter, and Emergency Financial Assistance for cat owners: http://ucat.us/VermontLowCost.html Special Needs Cat Resources: http://ucat.us/domesticcatlinks.html -- Vist the Rescuties store and save a kitty life! http://astore.amazon.com/rescuties-20
Fwd: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
hee hee--thought this went to the whole list. since the answer was to more than just phaewyrn -- Forwarded message -- From: TenHouseCats [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Dec 13, 2006 6:17 PM Subject: Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture To: Phaewryn - Controversy Queen [EMAIL PROTECTED] sorry, it's the asilomar ACCORDS. i tried to get rick avanzino from maddie's fund to directly answer my question re: where FIV/FeLV cats fit into the accords one time, but couldn't pin him down but was originally confusing to me was that one of the original developers of the accords was a best friends person, but the second link here is a position paper on the bf site, by winograd, making a pretty clear statement. (um, this last one is a 12pp pdf document, so) http://www.asilomaraccords.org http://www.bestfriends.org/nomorehomelesspets/pdf/asilomar_nw.pdf -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine AIM / YAHOO: TenHouseCats MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 289856892
Re: about exposed FIP cat that needs a home/The Big Picture
And then there is the question of a pregnant mother... Is it OK to abort the unborn babies ??? TenHouseCats wrote: no, i wouldn't. it's a lot like, natural. or, organic. then there are the ones who won't euthanize even when the animals are clearly suffering, which to me is as bad as killing healthy positives have you read the asilomar records, which is what the maddie's fund no-kill nation stuff is based on? damned if i've ever been able to get a straight answer from anyone on whether FIVs/FeLVs fit their definition On 12/13/06, Phaewryn - Controversy Queen [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You'd be shocked at the actual definition of no kill in shelter circles. In most, it simply means that when they run out of space, they stop taking in new animals, rather than just killing the ones that have been there the longest. Their testing policy, and euthanasia policy outside of the space issue has NO RELATION to their thinking of themselves as no kill. There are countless shelters listed on many lists as no kill, shelters that PROUDLY claim to be no kill, shelters that picket-toting hard-core activists support as no kill, yet, the vast majority of them, if you browse the list of cats they have up for adoption, all say cat has been tested negative for FELV and FIV, and they don't list a single FELV+ or FIV+ cat on their website for adoption. If you take the time to email them and ask, Do you adopt out FELV+ or FIV+ cats? most of them either choose to NOT REPLY, or reply back and say they don't. No kill? I don't think so... but the majority of people in rescue circles consider them no kill. To me, no kill means that you DON'T KILL any animals unless it is SUFFERING and BEYOND the point of recovery. Not so for most people though. Phaewryn Please save Whitey! http://ucat.us/Whitey.html VT low cost SpayNeuter, and Emergency Financial Assistance for cat owners: http://ucat.us/VermontLowCost.html Special Needs Cat Resources: http://ucat.us/domesticcatlinks.html -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine AIM / YAHOO: TenHouseCats MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 289856892
