Re: We are not perfect
tonya, you weren't around as frequently back in the early spring when some of us were trying, gently, to correct those who either out of lack of information, or self-righteousness, were putting out dangerous information. we were attacked when we asked people to do the research themselves, to check the archives, to remember that none of us are vets--that's why we left, when it became personal, and the misinformation and bad advice continued. we tried very hard, then gave up. and i make no apologies for reverting to my first language, sarcasm, when all my 4-planets-in-libra gentle reminders and suggestions were pissed on like a plastic bag. my concern was and is with the people who didn't KNOW they were being fed menu-brand level knowledge. you have no idea how much angst this has caused those of us who love this list, now how much behind the scenes work we tried to do to find a solution--for most people, it was just emotionally wiser for them to quietly leave than to stand up and be attacked. On 9/28/07, catatonya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This list has always had divisions: declaw/not declaw outside/inside aggressive treatment/leave them alone pts/die naturally mix + and - / keep separate animal communication/ scam. We have all always had different opinions, but we have always been respectful in those disagreements for many years. I disagree on some things with some of my best friends on this list. We've had lots of debates on them. Some people are more 'hotheaded' about these things than others, but I think we can all try to disagree (when we do) in a respectful way. And if really wrong advice is given that could cause harm I think we should say so. tonya *Melissa Lind [EMAIL PROTECTED]* wrote: Yes, I understand this, but isn't this why Phaewryn or Jennifer or whoever left a while back? If I remember right, she was disgusted by the use of Animal Communicators because they are not scientifically proven, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she felt that suggesting the use of an AC does more harm than good since science is being abandoned for what some consider to be a scam or a witchdoctor or whatever. *I have no experience with ACs, so these are not my views*, but I remember people ganging up on her several months ago when she was trying to debunk what she thought was harmful information. I completely understand what you guys mean, but I just thought that the comment by MC was merely an extension of the fight and nothing more. I apologize for any misunderstanding. Melissa -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Susan Hoffman *Sent:* Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:16 PM *To:* felvtalk@felineleukemia.org *Subject:* Re: We are not vets I'm with MC on this. This has been a problem on other lists that I am on and fortunately the mods are willing to kick people to the curb if they are giving out questionable advice, especially without some sort of express disclaimer. Newbies do not understand that advice may be very wrong. Often they are looking for any glimmer of hope and would willingly buy snake oil if they thought it might save a cat they loved. *MaryChristine [EMAIL PROTECTED]* wrote: for many years, none of us had any problem saying, in my opinion, or, this is what my vet recommended, or this is what has worked for me--and newcomers do NOT know that there are no vets on the list, they do NOT know when they are being given flat-out WRONG information. there has been DANGEROUS, in some cases possibly life-threatening information put out on this list in the past few months by people who presented it as if it had been handed to them on stone tablets. there is a HUGE difference between a suggestion, and the kind of proclamations that have become the norm on the list. On 9/27/07, *Melissa Lind* [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think we all can agree that an unspoken disclaimer exists in this community. None of us is a vet. We give advice based upon experience. It is understood that we are not prescribing anything as a vet would. If a person does not agree with a suggestion for a sick cat, it is his/her choice to speak up. The only way we learn is though the suggestions of members here. As you ALL know, there are so many varied experiences with many different ailments that it helps to have a wide range of suggestions. No one on this list claims to be the be-all-end-all of veterinary medicine. We are only doing the best we can with what we know. Some of us are new to this, so the suggestions of veteran members are appreciated, and the variety of opinions is valuable. If you do not agree with the suggestions below, please just give your advice to the contrary. This is all getting so stupid. I'm thinking about leaving to go to Michael's list too. I'll hang around and see if things improve here, but the drama is unbearable at this point. Even after Susan
Re: We are not perfect ~ MaryChristine
MC,. would you be willing to email me privately? Laurie (of Isabella, Laurie and Lisa) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: MaryChristine To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 9:46 AM Subject: Re: We are not perfect tonya, you weren't around as frequently back in the early spring when some of us were trying, gently, to correct those who either out of lack of information, or self-righteousness, were putting out dangerous information. we were attacked when we asked people to do the research themselves, to check the archives, to remember that none of us are vets--that's why we left, when it became personal, and the misinformation and bad advice continued. we tried very hard, then gave up. and i make no apologies for reverting to my first language, sarcasm, when all my 4-planets-in-libra gentle reminders and suggestions were pissed on like a plastic bag. my concern was and is with the people who didn't KNOW they were being fed menu-brand level knowledge. you have no idea how much angst this has caused those of us who love this list, now how much behind the scenes work we tried to do to find a solution--for most people, it was just emotionally wiser for them to quietly leave than to stand up and be attacked. On 9/28/07, catatonya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This list has always had divisions: declaw/not declaw outside/inside aggressive treatment/leave them alone pts/die naturally mix + and - / keep separate animal communication/ scam. We have all always had different opinions, but we have always been respectful in those disagreements for many years. I disagree on some things with some of my best friends on this list. We've had lots of debates on them. Some people are more 'hotheaded' about these things than others, but I think we can all try to disagree (when we do) in a respectful way. And if really wrong advice is given that could cause harm I think we should say so. tonya Melissa Lind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, I understand this, but isn't this why Phaewryn or Jennifer or whoever left a while back? If I remember right, she was disgusted by the use of Animal Communicators because they are not scientifically proven, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she felt that suggesting the use of an AC does more harm than good since science is being abandoned for what some consider to be a scam or a witchdoctor or whatever. I have no experience with ACs, so these are not my views , but I remember people ganging up on her several months ago when she was trying to debunk what she thought was harmful information. I completely understand what you guys mean, but I just thought that the comment by MC was merely an extension of the fight and nothing more. I apologize for any misunderstanding. Melissa -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Hoffman Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:16 PM To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: We are not vets I'm with MC on this. This has been a problem on other lists that I am on and fortunately the mods are willing to kick people to the curb if they are giving out questionable advice, especially without some sort of express disclaimer. Newbies do not understand that advice may be very wrong. Often they are looking for any glimmer of hope and would willingly buy snake oil if they thought it might save a cat they loved. MaryChristine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: for many years, none of us had any problem saying, in my opinion, or, this is what my vet recommended, or this is what has worked for me--and newcomers do NOT know that there are no vets on the list, they do NOT know when they are being given flat-out WRONG information. there has been DANGEROUS, in some cases possibly life-threatening information put out on this list in the past few months by people who presented it as if it had been handed to them on stone tablets. there is a HUGE difference between a suggestion, and the kind of proclamations that have become the norm on the list. On 9/27/07, Melissa Lind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think we all can agree that an unspoken disclaimer exists in this community. None of us is a vet. We give advice based upon experience. It is understood that we are not prescribing anything as a vet would. If a person does not agree with a suggestion for a sick cat, it is his/her choice to speak up. The only way we learn is though the suggestions of members here. As you ALL know, there are so many varied experiences with many different ailments that it helps to have a wide range of suggestions. No one on this list claims to be the be-all-end-all of veterinary medicine. We are only doing the best we can with what we
RE: We are not perfect
This list has always had divisions:
declaw/not declaw
outside/inside
aggressive treatment/leave them alone
pts/die naturally
mix + and - / keep separate
animal communication/ scam.
We have all always had different opinions, but we have always been respectful
in those disagreements for many years. I disagree on some things with some of
my best friends on this list. We've had lots of debates on them. Some people
are more 'hotheaded' about these things than others, but I think we can all try
to disagree (when we do) in a respectful way. And if really wrong advice is
given that could cause harm I think we should say so.
tonya
Melissa Lind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }Yes, I understand this,
but isnt this why Phaewryn or Jennifer or whoever left a while back? If I
remember right, she was disgusted by the use of Animal Communicators because
they are not scientifically proven, etc. Correct me if Im wrong, but I think
she felt that suggesting the use of an AC does more harm than good since
science is being abandoned for what some consider to be a scam or a witchdoctor
or whatever. I have no experience with ACs, so these are not my views, but I
remember people ganging up on her several months ago when she was trying to
debunk what she thought was harmful information.
I completely understand what you guys mean, but I just thought that the
comment by MC was merely an extension of the fight and nothing more. I
apologize for any misunderstanding.
Melissa
-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Hoffman
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:16 PM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: We are not vets
I'm with MC on this. This has been a problem on other lists that I am on and
fortunately the mods are willing to kick people to the curb if they are giving
out questionable advice, especially without some sort of express disclaimer.
Newbies do not understand that advice may be very wrong. Often they are
looking for any glimmer of hope and would willingly buy snake oil if they
thought it might save a cat they loved.
MaryChristine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
for many years, none of us had any problem saying, in my opinion, or, this
is what my vet recommended, or this is what has worked for me--and
newcomers do NOT know that there are no vets on the list, they do NOT know when
they are being given flat-out WRONG information. there has been DANGEROUS, in
some cases possibly life-threatening information put out on this list in the
past few months by people who presented it as if it had been handed to them on
stone tablets.
there is a HUGE difference between a suggestion, and the kind of proclamations
that have become the norm on the list.
On 9/27/07, Melissa Lind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think we all can agree that an unspoken disclaimer exists in this
community. None of us is a vet. We give advice based upon experience. It is
understood that we are not prescribing anything as a vet would. If a person
does not agree with a suggestion for a sick cat, it is his/her choice to speak
up. The only way we learn is though the suggestions of members here. As you ALL
know, there are so many varied experiences with many different ailments that it
helps to have a wide range of suggestions. No one on this list claims to be the
be-all-end-all of veterinary medicine. We are only doing the best we can with
what we know. Some of us are new to this, so the suggestions of veteran members
are appreciated, and the variety of opinions is valuable. If you do not agree
with the suggestions below, please just give your advice to the contrary.
This is all getting so stupid. I'm thinking about leaving to go to
Michael's list too. I'll hang around and see if things improve here, but the
drama is unbearable at this point. Even after Susan D. has left the group, we
are still arguing about this! Enough already.
Melissa
-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MaryChristine
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:25 PM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: OT: Kitten Question
you are prescribing medicine without a license.
On 9/25/07, Susan Dubose [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Caroline,
Have the little kittens had a fecal yet?
If not, I recommend getting one performed.
