On Jan 22, 2009, at 9:12 PM, Ray Horton wrote:
Professionally, I think the G bass trombone died in the 60s.
They were
helped to their demise by the late Ray Premru, an American bass
trombonist
who went to England in the early 60s and started taking jobs
away from Brits
with
On Jan 21, 2009, at 10:13 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 21 Jan 2009 at 21:55, Christopher Smith wrote:
In Chapter 1:1:3 he discusses the problems assembling a full trombone
section in cities other than Vienna, saying, ...the ideal number of
trombonists that made up a Beethoven trombone
On 22 Jan 2009 at 0:18, Ray Horton wrote:
I would even venture to say that their work is so well-documented that
anyone who wants to dispute would need, at this point, to come up with
some examples.
My questions were entirely aimed at the web article that Christopher
cited. I don't see
On 22 Jan 2009 at 8:07, Christopher Smith wrote:
On Jan 21, 2009, at 10:13 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 21 Jan 2009 at 21:55, Christopher Smith wrote:
In Chapter 1:1:3 he discusses the problems assembling a full trombone
section in cities other than Vienna, saying, ...the ideal number
On Jan 22, 2009, at 8:42 AM, David W. Fenton wrote:
But my understanding is that the Wiener article is claiming Beethoven
didn't call for alto trombone. I thought you were using the web
article to support that position, when, in fact, it seems to me to be
based entirely on the contrary
David W. Fenton wrote:
...
Yes, but it depends on what you're looking at -- what Beethoven
intended, and what people actually managed to do at the time. Since
we today (in most decent-sized orchestras) have the luxury of
choosing the instruments to be used, I don't see much reason to worry
On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Ray Horton rayhor...@insightbb.com wrote:
If one accepts Weiner's conclusions, the alto was not present in Vienna,
I'm reading this thread with considerable interest, without much to add. I
will say that one of my favorite passages for alto trombone (when
Actually, my former teacher from St. Louis Symphony said he stuck with the
tenor for Beethoven 5 since the part laid better on it than on the alto.
He did use his alto for the Oh Mensch, Gib Acht movement in Mahler 3.
Since no one would have noticed if he hadn't said anything the blends
worked
Consider that the Bb trombone of 1820 was a smaller bore than nearly any
Eb alto trombone today.
But, of course, all of the other instruments were different, too.
Raymond Horton
Robert Patterson wrote:
On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Ray Horton rayhor...@insightbb.com wrote:
If one
On 22-Jan-09, at 22-Jan-09 2:42 PM, Ray Horton wrote:
This whole area of research has been more interesting to me as a
bass trombonist, who has always assumed that the F bass trombone
was standard, until replaced by a Bb with F valve. With both men's
research we find that the F bass,
Interesting. The small-bore G bass trombone was common in England for
years, not completely fading out until the 1960s. I didn't know it was
played in Eastern Europe at all.
RBH
Christopher Smith wrote:
On 22-Jan-09, at 22-Jan-09 2:42 PM, Ray Horton wrote:
This whole area of research
2009/1/22 Ray Horton rayhor...@insightbb.com
Interesting. The small-bore G bass trombone was common in England for
years, not completely fading out until the 1960s. I didn't know it was
played in Eastern Europe at all.
The G bass trombone with it's handle was still around (though rare) in
Good luck with that!
Professionally, I think the G bass trombone died in the 60s. They were
helped to their demise by the late Ray Premru, an American bass trombonist
who went to England in the early 60s and started taking jobs away from Brits
with his great sound on the Bb/F
On 20 Jan 2009 at 23:17, John Howell wrote:
(And no, there were
no trombones in the Toccata, just the trumpet
corps from the Duke's military establishment who
played their little fanfare and then went out for
a beer or three!
Er, there aren't any trumpets in the Toccata, either, just
At 9:19 AM -0500 1/21/09, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 20 Jan 2009 at 23:17, John Howell wrote:
(And no, there were
no trombones in the Toccata, just the trumpet
corps from the Duke's military establishment who
played their little fanfare and then went out for
a beer or three!
Er, there
On 21 Jan 2009 at 12:05, John Howell wrote:
At 9:19 AM -0500 1/21/09, David W. Fenton wrote:
Mozart didn't call for trombones -- there's no indication of that
in the scores of any of his liturgical music.
I may have seen the indications in modern scores.
No doubt -- the BH Gesamtausgabe
On 20 Jan 2009 at 23:53, Christopher Smith wrote:
Here's an article
http://www.britishtrombonesociety.org/resources/shifrin/chapter-1-
from-beethoven-to-schumann.html
He deals with the post-Beethoven symphonic writing for trombone. The
gist is: even though the score may be written in
On Jan 21, 2009, at 8:26 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 20 Jan 2009 at 23:53, Christopher Smith wrote:
Here's an article
http://www.britishtrombonesociety.org/resources/shifrin/chapter-1-
from-beethoven-to-schumann.html
He deals with the post-Beethoven symphonic writing for trombone. The
On 21 Jan 2009 at 21:55, Christopher Smith wrote:
On Jan 21, 2009, at 8:26 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 20 Jan 2009 at 23:53, Christopher Smith wrote:
Here's an article
http://www.britishtrombonesociety.org/resources/shifrin/chapter-1-
from-beethoven-to-schumann.html
He deals
Weiner's work has barely been scratched here. One of his findings is
that the use of falset notes (faked low notes) on tenor trombone was
described in some sources and position charts (I won't try to recall
where and when without the article in front of me) much earlier than
many of us would
And is pedal b-flat out of the question?
ajr
Weiner's work has barely been scratched here. One of his findings is
that the use of falset notes (faked low notes) on tenor trombone was
described in some sources and position charts (I won't try to recall
where and when without the article in
Certainly not. Sorry if I wasn't clear. The Bb below the staff in the
Creation part, which is easily playable on a Bb trombone as a pedal
note, is not playable on the rare F bass trombone.
Hmm - unless it was playable on the F bass as a falset note, but this
is not a given. (I have an F
At 8:16 PM -0600 1/20/09, arabu...@cowtown.net wrote:
It all depends on which big boys you're talking about. Even in some of
those operas you mentioned trombone players sit around and hear everybody
else make the piece while they count TACETs. They only play in 2 out of 5
acts of Orfeo (and
On Jan 20, 2009, at 11:17 PM, John Howell wrote:
And while I'm not entirely convinced about the use of all tenor
trombones for early orchestra music as quoted by Ray from someone
else, I don't know enough to specifically argue against it. But
history suggests the opposite. The OTHER
And such honors should be accorded all the instruments!
ajr
who joined in with the rest of the sackbuts in the balcony playing the
drones for the Orfeo toccata when we did it in Bloomington
At 8:16 PM -0600 1/20/09, arabu...@cowtown.net wrote:
It all depends on which big boys you're talking
Here is the best article:
Weiner, Howard “When is an Alto Trombone an Alto Trombone? When is a
Bass Trombone a Bass Trombone? – The Makeup of the Trombone Section in
Eighteenth- and Early Nineteenth-Century Orchestras,” Historic Brass
Society Journal 17 (2005), 37-79.
Here is one post in
Well, you're right if you assume a professional setting. But in the
vast musical world which encompasses trombones, are there more
professional organizations or amateur organizations? In professional
groups, yes, they will insist on the instrument named in the score, if
such an instrument is
At 6:26 AM -0400 6/25/06, dhbailey wrote:
That's what I was referring to -- how many orchestras play
Beethoven's symphonies which have trombone parts on instruments
bearing much resemblance to the trombones he had in mind? Bore
sizes have changed dramatically, but we still play his
Christopher Smith wrote:
On Jun 23, 2006, at 5:16 PM, John Howell wrote:
At 4:42 PM -0400 6/23/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 6/23/06 3:27:17 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
1. The only modern contrabass trombone I've EVER heard of is in
BB-flat,
though some today add an F
Hi David,
I'm not sure what the specific situations are that limit your expectations,
but in a professional setting I expect the nomenclature to be adhered to, or
that someone will notify me of a needed change. When I write for bass trbn
I have a fairly particular sound in mind: that resonant,
Frankly, too much of this talk concerns me as I (a trombonist) do not feel
as confused by my instrument as some think one should be.
1. The only modern contrabass trombone I've EVER heard of is in BB-flat,
though some today add an F trigger. Both of these are an octave lower than
the tenor-bass
In a message dated 6/23/06 3:27:17 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
1. The only modern contrabass trombone I've EVER heard of is in BB-flat,
though some today add an F trigger. Both of these are an octave lower than
the tenor-bass instrument used today, regardless of its boresize.
Actually,
At 4:42 PM -0400 6/23/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 6/23/06 3:27:17 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
1. The only modern contrabass trombone I've EVER heard of is in BB-flat,
though some today add an F trigger. Both of these are an octave lower than
the tenor-bass instrument used
On Jun 23, 2006, at 5:16 PM, John Howell wrote:
At 4:42 PM -0400 6/23/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 6/23/06 3:27:17 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
1. The only modern contrabass trombone I've EVER heard of is in
BB-flat,
though some today add an F trigger. Both of these are
Robert Patterson wrote:
...
Where are the worms?
No worms. This is what I thought was opening the can. I thought I was
insulting cellists, but no one went for it, and it turned into a tame
thread on clefs instead. Probably no cellists here. Maybe they are to
busy practicing:
...
RBH
, 21 June 2006 5:25 a.m.
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] trombones
And aren't the British Brass Band trombones not only in the treble
clef but also transposed to Bb like Baritone T.C. in U.S. band music?
I believe that's correct. (Which also just happens to make it
equivalent to tenor
Steve Currington wrote:
Carl Dershem wrote:
.---.-.-...
If you're trying to he authentic, do what he did. He probably had a
reason.
If you're trying to be played right the first time, bass clef is the
first clef for trombonists, and the one they read without a seond
At 5:21 AM -0400 6/20/06, dhbailey wrote:
Steve Currington wrote:
Carl Dershem wrote:
.---.-.-...
If you're trying to he authentic, do what he did. He probably had a
reason.
If you're trying to be played right the first time, bass clef is
the first clef for trombonists,
) 62910787. Mob 0417-042171
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
dhbailey
Sent: Tuesday, 20 June 2006 7:21 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] trombones
Steve Currington wrote:
Carl Dershem wrote
teh bass trombs. and they vary nowadays.. In teh odl days
it was a G trom but nowadays with they vary more.
Steve
-Original Message-
From: dhbailey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, 20 June 2006 9:21 p.m.
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] trombones
Steve Currington wrote
On Jun 18, 2006, at 2:15 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
I just checked a number of scores. My Dover Schumann Symphonies show
Sym. 1/2 trombones on 2 staves. A/T in alto clef, and B in bass clef.
Schubert Unfinished is the same. Schubert C Major shows A/T in tenor
clef. In all cases, I believe
Carl Dershem wrote:
.---.-.-...
If you're trying to he authentic, do what he did. He probably had a
reason.
If you're trying to be played right the first time, bass clef is the
first clef for trombonists, and the one they read without a seond
thought (with fewer
On Jun 17, 2006, at 1:38 PM, Raymond Horton wrote:
_-=-__-=-__-=-__-=-__-=-__-=-_ (Sound of a worm can being opened)
OK, I'll bite. 19th-c. orchl. piece. Only the score survives, in
copyist's hand. Trombones (alto, tenor, bass) on two staves: A and T
on one, in the alto clef, and
Andrew Stiller wrote:
On Jun 17, 2006, at 1:38 PM, Raymond Horton wrote:
_-=-__-=-__-=-__-=-__-=-__-=-_ (Sound of a worm can being opened)
OK, I'll bite. 19th-c. orchl. piece. Only the score survives, in
copyist's hand. Trombones (alto, tenor, bass) on two staves: A and T on
one,
Any of the 3 clefs you choose will be no problem for a professional
tenor player.
If it were me, I would put the tenor on tenor clef (alto on alto, and
bass on bass). I've done this myself in a recent orch. piece. (The A/T
parts often appeared in the score on one staff in alto clef.) The only
On Jun 18, 2006, at 1:56 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
OK, I'll bite. 19th-c. orchl. piece. Only the score survives, in
copyist's hand. Trombones (alto, tenor, bass) on two staves: A and T
on one, in the alto clef, and bass on the other, in bass clef. When I
extract the parts, should the
At 1:56 PM -0400 6/18/06, Andrew Stiller wrote:
OK, I'll bite. 19th-c. orchl. piece. Only the score survives, in
copyist's hand. Trombones (alto, tenor, bass) on two staves: A and T
on one, in the alto clef, and bass on the other, in bass clef. When
I extract the parts, should the tenor
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