Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
they can be accessed from within the tool, but the tools themselves can also be assigned metatools (ctl-f through '). since they are per tool, you have 35+ metatools for each of the tools i listed (so something like 280+ in total). if they were tool-independent, you would only have 35+ TOTAL. i use iKey extensively for various tasks and task sequences which give you even more metatools and that are generally tool-independent; you can use a variety of key combinations in iKey, for example, i press ctl-opt-n to call up the change expression dalogue, cmd-ctl-t to run TGTools shift accidentals and dismiss the dialogue on a selected region. you can also build dozens of tasks in a single key command to across a variety of tools, essentially building your own plugins, i suppose. Refresh my memory -- metatools are key combinations that work from any tool in the program? Or do you have to be in the tool for which the metatool was programmed? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
I just want shortcuts to switch between tools.. maybe it's possible but I've never worked out how. Apart from esc for the selection tool. Steve P. On 22 Aug 2012, at 02:12, David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com wrote: Refresh my memory -- metatools are key combinations that work from any tool in the program? Or do you have to be in the tool for which the metatool was programmed? So if I define a metatool for the Measure tool and then try to use it while the Staff tool is active, will it work as I defined it to work in the Measure tool? So if I define ctrl-k to change a barline to a double bar, it will always do that no matter what tool I'm in? And they are definable from one single interface in the preferences dialog? Finale's metatools are quite different from Sibelius's keyboard shortcuts, and people who want such convenience in Finale end up have to use additional software to do anything like what Sibelius's shortcuts can do. The way the Sibelius shortcuts work, you can use a keyboard-shortcut anyplace and it will always do exactly what you defined it to do. And how about for calling menu functions? Are those user-definable shortcuts in Finale? I don't seem to remember us being able to change those. David H. Bailey On 8/21/2012 7:52 PM, SN jef chippewa wrote: huh? you mean like metatools? i.e. 35+ slots for user-defined shortcuts in each of the measure, staff style, articulation, tuplet and expression tools? and even smart shapes? One great benefit of Sibelius, which I hope Finale will someday institute natively, not requiring a plug-in, is the ability of a user to define their own keyboard shortcuts, so the entire interface practically can be turned into keyboard shortcuts. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
On 2012-08-22 13:08, Steve Parker wrote: I just want shortcuts to switch between tools.. The function keys are (document-specific) programmable metatools. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
like i said: they can be accessed from within the tool, but the tools themselves can also be assigned metatools (ctl-f through '). ctl-opt-key to programme clt-key to call it up I just want shortcuts to switch between tools.. maybe it's possible but I've never worked out how. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
I made this feature a part of my workflow before easy access to the selection tool (twice on the escape key) and its ability to double click score elements to go to the corresponding tool. I use both methods interchangeably and am quite content navigating tools this way. One of my favorite implementations of tool access through the selection tool is going to the lyric tool. For a number of reasons, I use different lyric sections (usually all verses) for each verse, chorus, bridge, or whatever in a song, and double-clicking a syllable takes me to the tool *and* the section in which it resides. Much easier than before this was possible. I do wish double clicking a note took me to speedy instead of simple note entry, but that's probably a different discussion. Don H. On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 7:45 AM, SN jef chippewa shirl...@newmusicnotation.com wrote: like i said: they can be accessed from within the tool, but the tools themselves can also be assigned metatools (ctl-f through '). ctl-opt-key to programme clt-key to call it up I just want shortcuts to switch between tools.. maybe it's possible but I've never worked out how. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
Hi Jef, I notice you're using iKey and I'm curious whether you've ever used QuicKeys. I used to use the latter and always found it a bit clunky, especially for more complicated tasks, so I left it alone for a few years and eventually came back to a newer version and had the same issues. Currently I'm not using any third party software to automate things in Finale and would love to know if you've found iKey both relatively simple and reliable. After writing this I'll see if there's a demo I can try, but firsthand experience is most welcome. If it matters, I'd be using it in Lion (10.7.4). Thanks, Doug On Aug 22, 2012, at 2:32 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote: they can be accessed from within the tool, but the tools themselves can also be assigned metatools (ctl-f through '). since they are per tool, you have 35+ metatools for each of the tools i listed (so something like 280+ in total). if they were tool-independent, you would only have 35+ TOTAL. i use iKey extensively for various tasks and task sequences which give you even more metatools and that are generally tool-independent; you can use a variety of key combinations in iKey, for example, i press ctl-opt-n to call up the change expression dalogue, cmd-ctl-t to run TGTools shift accidentals and dismiss the dialogue on a selected region. you can also build dozens of tasks in a single key command to across a variety of tools, essentially building your own plugins, i suppose. Refresh my memory -- metatools are key combinations that work from any tool in the program? Or do you have to be in the tool for which the metatool was programmed? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
Hi Doug, If I can add my 2 cents worth. I too used QuicKeys, back in the OS9 days, and it worked well, but I found it wasn't easy to use under OSX. I now use Keyboard Maestro. While I'd recommend it, I'll certainly be trying iKey as well. Keyboard Maestro has a demo. - Nigel On 23/08/2012, at 1:10 AM, Doug Walter wrote: Hi Jef, I notice you're using iKey and I'm curious whether you've ever used QuicKeys. I used to use the latter and always found it a bit clunky, especially for more complicated tasks, so I left it alone for a few years and eventually came back to a newer version and had the same issues. Currently I'm not using any third party software to automate things in Finale and would love to know if you've found iKey both relatively simple and reliable. After writing this I'll see if there's a demo I can try, but firsthand experience is most welcome. If it matters, I'd be using it in Lion (10.7.4). Thanks, Doug ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
Hi Doug, Chiming in here if I may. I have used QuicKeys since v1.2 on my first Mac in 1989, and always found it indispensable especially in Finale. Currently I am still on Snow Leopard and one of the apps that was preventing my from moving to Lion was QK. They are having issues with their head programmer (it's posted on their website) and I feel the application is languishing now because of that and it made me seek out an alternative. In the past I did try iKey but it was completely unreliable and I trashed it. Someone on the Finale user board did say he was using the latest version of QK in Lion with no issues. But I felt QK was bogging down my system under SN and was concerned about using it under Lion. Could be a moot point tho. I am now using Keyboard Maestro and am finding it quite robust and more than usable here. The caveat was that I had to recreate all my Finale shortcuts which probably turned out to be a good thing since it made me rethink all of them and in some cases they became more efficient. It is missing some of QK niceties but all in all, it's eminently usable. J D Thomas ThomaStudios On Aug 22, 2012, at 8:10 AM, Doug Walter wrote: Hi Jef, I notice you're using iKey and I'm curious whether you've ever used QuicKeys. I used to use the latter and always found it a bit clunky, especially for more complicated tasks, so I left it alone for a few years and eventually came back to a newer version and had the same issues. Currently I'm not using any third party software to automate things in Finale and would love to know if you've found iKey both relatively simple and reliable. After writing this I'll see if there's a demo I can try, but firsthand experience is most welcome. If it matters, I'd be using it in Lion (10.7.4). Thanks, Doug On Aug 22, 2012, at 2:32 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote: they can be accessed from within the tool, but the tools themselves can also be assigned metatools (ctl-f through '). since they are per tool, you have 35+ metatools for each of the tools i listed (so something like 280+ in total). if they were tool-independent, you would only have 35+ TOTAL. i use iKey extensively for various tasks and task sequences which give you even more metatools and that are generally tool-independent; you can use a variety of key combinations in iKey, for example, i press ctl-opt-n to call up the change expression dalogue, cmd-ctl-t to run TGTools shift accidentals and dismiss the dialogue on a selected region. you can also build dozens of tasks in a single key command to across a variety of tools, essentially building your own plugins, i suppose. Refresh my memory -- metatools are key combinations that work from any tool in the program? Or do you have to be in the tool for which the metatool was programmed? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
I have noticed that the upgrade price to 2012b is now lower than it was a while ago and thinking if it was worthwhile upgrading (from 2009) or waiting for the modernized Finale product that takes advantage of current technology and workflows. Technology companies don't usually drop prices if they think the current generation is still worthwhile. Any guesses? Regards, Michael Lawlor ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
On 8/21/2012 2:59 AM, Michael Lawlor wrote: I have noticed that the upgrade price to 2012b is now lower than it was a while ago and thinking if it was worthwhile upgrading (from 2009) or waiting for the modernized Finale product that takes advantage of current technology and workflows. Technology companies don't usually drop prices if they think the current generation is still worthwhile. Any guesses? It's tough economic terms for everybody, and I don't think that you can take the price drop for Finale2012b upgrade (free for 2012 users, costs money for people upgrading from 2011 or earlier) as anything other than an incentive to generate more income during a slow period. August traditionally isn't a great month for sales other than back-to-school clothes and typical school supplies (pens/pencils/paper/binders). Software won't be purchased by college students typically until they find out which specific version their schools might require, if any, and that will happen in September. So while I can often be a the sky is falling sort of alarmist, I don't think there is anything in this prices drop other than an effort to generate a bit more income. Most people who were going to upgrade to 2012 did so back in 2011 when it came out -- with no super-compelling improvements to make everybody jump on the upgrade, I'm certain that the upgrade orders trickled down to a slow speed by the end of 2011. This is an effort to entice more people who are still using older versions, and especially people who are using really old versions (3 versions old is pretty old in the software world) to move up to 2012. I can see several reasons in addition to cash-flow for doing this -- there will be a Finale2014 version and the interface will (hopefully) include only minor alterations from the current interface. But the current interface is a fairly drastic alteration from versions earlier than Fin2011 so this lowering of the price may be so that people like you will upgrade now, face the frustrations of the altered interface and get the kinks worked out of your workflow so that there will be less workload for tech support when version Fin2014 comes out. We also know that a group of investors is looking to buy MakeMusic and infuse a lot of money into modernizing the code base for Finale, and it could be that MakeMusic is trying to generate more cash flow in an effort to prove that the company is worth more than the investors are offering, in order to win a higher per-share price for the current shareholders. And since the current higher-ups in MakeMusic are probably paid partly with stock options or shares in the company, the higher they can drive the price up for the takeover, the richer they will become. Of course, the investors may simply bow out and look for someplace else to invest if the cost of the takeover becomes too expensive, so if this is the plan, it might backfire. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
I have a really horrible feeling that a modernized Finale product that takes advantage of current technology and workflows is probably going to involve tabs replacing the traditional menus, like MS Office, and those recently introduced in Sibelius 7. I really hope not, as I think it was a terrible move on Sibelius's part, taking up loads of space on screen and massively counter-intuitive, but it really wouldn't surprise me if this is what happens. C. -- Colin Broomhttp://soundcloud.com/colinbroom -- From: m_law...@btinternet.com To: finale@shsu.edu Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 07:59:46 +0100 Subject: Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results I have noticed that the upgrade price to 2012b is now lower than it was a while ago and thinking if it was worthwhile upgrading (from 2009) or waiting for the modernized Finale product that takes advantage of current technology and workflows. Technology companies don't usually drop prices if they think the current generation is still worthwhile. Any guesses? Regards, Michael Lawlor ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
On 8/21/2012 6:08 AM, Colin Broom wrote: I have a really horrible feeling that a modernized Finale product that takes advantage of current technology and workflows is probably going to involve tabs replacing the traditional menus, like MS Office, and those recently introduced in Sibelius 7. I really hope not, as I think it was a terrible move on Sibelius's part, taking up loads of space on screen and massively counter-intuitive, but it really wouldn't surprise me if this is what happens. You do know that you can minimize the ribbon in Sibelius 7, so that only the names of the tabs are showing, just like the older menu headings show until you click on them, don't you? There's a little green triangle to the right end of the Sibelius ribbon, next to the help icon -- click that and the ribbon takes up no more screen real estate than a menu bar does. Sort of makes one wonder why the switch, but more software is going to the ribbon format, so we all have to learn to deal with it, just as wordstar users had to learn to deal with menus instead of the old command structure, when they switched to newer word processors. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
Yeah, I did know that, thanks, but I guess it bothers me that by default it takes up so much space. My bigger issue with it is that it's not especially intuitive. For example, one particular gripe is that depending on which tab is selected, the plugins button has different content, which makes things harder to find. I guess as long as there's some kind of keyboard shortcuts such as offered by TG, it might be manageable, but I hope they don't go down the tabs route, as even with familiarity, I don't think it results in an advance in efficiency. C. -- Colin Broom colin_broom@hotmail.comhttp://soundcloud.com/colinbroom -- Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 07:03:40 -0400 From: dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results On 8/21/2012 6:08 AM, Colin Broom wrote: I have a really horrible feeling that a modernized Finale product that takes advantage of current technology and workflows is probably going to involve tabs replacing the traditional menus, like MS Office, and those recently introduced in Sibelius 7. I really hope not, as I think it was a terrible move on Sibelius's part, taking up loads of space on screen and massively counter-intuitive, but it really wouldn't surprise me if this is what happens. You do know that you can minimize the ribbon in Sibelius 7, so that only the names of the tabs are showing, just like the older menu headings show until you click on them, don't you? There's a little green triangle to the right end of the Sibelius ribbon, next to the help icon -- click that and the ribbon takes up no more screen real estate than a menu bar does. Sort of makes one wonder why the switch, but more software is going to the ribbon format, so we all have to learn to deal with it, just as wordstar users had to learn to deal with menus instead of the old command structure, when they switched to newer word processors. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
On 8/21/2012 7:56 AM, Colin Broom wrote: Yeah, I did know that, thanks, but I guess it bothers me that by default it takes up so much space. My bigger issue with it is that it's not especially intuitive. For example, one particular gripe is that depending on which tab is selected, the plugins button has different content, which makes things harder to find. I guess as long as there's some kind of keyboard shortcuts such as offered by TG, it might be manageable, but I hope they don't go down the tabs route, as even with familiarity, I don't think it results in an advance in efficiency. C. I can't argue with you on any of the points you mention -- but a few versions ago Finale restructured its menus and I find many of their decisions just as unintuitive as any ribbon structure I've seen. For example, I've never understood why show active layer only was under the View menu in Finale when it was really most useful while editing and so my intuition always looked for it under the Edit menu. But I eventually got used to it, but now it's under the Document menu! Well practically everything in Finale works on the current Document, so why didn't they put *everything* under the Document menu? Why take something that has to do with how someone *views* the music or how someone *edits* the music and place it in a menu that to my intuition would most likely be where the page margins and other layout issues would be placed? And why is Transpose under Utilities instead of Edit? And why is respell notes under Utilities while Enharmonic Spelling is under Edit? You don't edit the music with the entry Enharmonic Spelling -- you tell the program how to interpret things. So wouldn't that be a Utility or at the least a Preference? While actually respelling the notes is part of editing the music isn't it? Why is Save Preferences under File while the actual defining of the preferences is under the Edit menu? Shouldn't everything that pertains to Preferences be together? I don't expect any answers to my questions because there is no justification for placing those (and other) menu items where they are in Finale that I can see. But obviously someone found great justification for making those decisions. I don't find the Finale menus any less confusing that the Sibelius ribbon, and ultimately things become comfortable once we start using them regularly. So I rarely am using the Find in Ribbon feature of Sibelius these days, but I sure could use one for Finale, which they very conveniently didn't include. I would think that would be a utility that everybody who uses new versions of Finale could benefit from, yet it's not under the Utilities menu and not under any other menu either. Ultimately one person's wow, that is so intuitive! is another person's holy cow, why on earth would they hide that entry under that heading, it makes no sense whatsoever?! One great benefit of Sibelius, which I hope Finale will someday institute natively, not requiring a plug-in, is the ability of a user to define their own keyboard shortcuts, so the entire interface practically can be turned into keyboard shortcuts. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
Whoops--hit send too soon. Evidently some of these locations are sacrosanct. A while ago I suggested a small number of relocations and was chewed out by a power user. Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon all the typos. On Aug 21, 2012, at 8:49 AM, David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com wrote: On 8/21/2012 7:56 AM, Colin Broom wrote: Yeah, I did know that, thanks, but I guess it bothers me that by default it takes up so much space. My bigger issue with it is that it's not especially intuitive. For example, one particular gripe is that depending on which tab is selected, the plugins button has different content, which makes things harder to find. I guess as long as there's some kind of keyboard shortcuts such as offered by TG, it might be manageable, but I hope they don't go down the tabs route, as even with familiarity, I don't think it results in an advance in efficiency. C. I can't argue with you on any of the points you mention -- but a few versions ago Finale restructured its menus and I find many of their decisions just as unintuitive as any ribbon structure I've seen. For example, I've never understood why show active layer only was under the View menu in Finale when it was really most useful while editing and so my intuition always looked for it under the Edit menu. But I eventually got used to it, but now it's under the Document menu! Well practically everything in Finale works on the current Document, so why didn't they put *everything* under the Document menu? Why take something that has to do with how someone *views* the music or how someone *edits* the music and place it in a menu that to my intuition would most likely be where the page margins and other layout issues would be placed? And why is Transpose under Utilities instead of Edit? And why is respell notes under Utilities while Enharmonic Spelling is under Edit? You don't edit the music with the entry Enharmonic Spelling -- you tell the program how to interpret things. So wouldn't that be a Utility or at the least a Preference? While actually respelling the notes is part of editing the music isn't it? Why is Save Preferences under File while the actual defining of the preferences is under the Edit menu? Shouldn't everything that pertains to Preferences be together? I don't expect any answers to my questions because there is no justification for placing those (and other) menu items where they are in Finale that I can see. But obviously someone found great justification for making those decisions. I don't find the Finale menus any less confusing that the Sibelius ribbon, and ultimately things become comfortable once we start using them regularly. So I rarely am using the Find in Ribbon feature of Sibelius these days, but I sure could use one for Finale, which they very conveniently didn't include. I would think that would be a utility that everybody who uses new versions of Finale could benefit from, yet it's not under the Utilities menu and not under any other menu either. Ultimately one person's wow, that is so intuitive! is another person's holy cow, why on earth would they hide that entry under that heading, it makes no sense whatsoever?! One great benefit of Sibelius, which I hope Finale will someday institute natively, not requiring a plug-in, is the ability of a user to define their own keyboard shortcuts, so the entire interface practically can be turned into keyboard shortcuts. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
Some of these locations are evidently sacrosanct. Sent from my iPhone, so please pardon all the typos. On Aug 21, 2012, at 8:49 AM, David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com wrote: On 8/21/2012 7:56 AM, Colin Broom wrote: Yeah, I did know that, thanks, but I guess it bothers me that by default it takes up so much space. My bigger issue with it is that it's not especially intuitive. For example, one particular gripe is that depending on which tab is selected, the plugins button has different content, which makes things harder to find. I guess as long as there's some kind of keyboard shortcuts such as offered by TG, it might be manageable, but I hope they don't go down the tabs route, as even with familiarity, I don't think it results in an advance in efficiency. C. I can't argue with you on any of the points you mention -- but a few versions ago Finale restructured its menus and I find many of their decisions just as unintuitive as any ribbon structure I've seen. For example, I've never understood why show active layer only was under the View menu in Finale when it was really most useful while editing and so my intuition always looked for it under the Edit menu. But I eventually got used to it, but now it's under the Document menu! Well practically everything in Finale works on the current Document, so why didn't they put *everything* under the Document menu? Why take something that has to do with how someone *views* the music or how someone *edits* the music and place it in a menu that to my intuition would most likely be where the page margins and other layout issues would be placed? And why is Transpose under Utilities instead of Edit? And why is respell notes under Utilities while Enharmonic Spelling is under Edit? You don't edit the music with the entry Enharmonic Spelling -- you tell the program how to interpret things. So wouldn't that be a Utility or at the least a Preference? While actually respelling the notes is part of editing the music isn't it? Why is Save Preferences under File while the actual defining of the preferences is under the Edit menu? Shouldn't everything that pertains to Preferences be together? I don't expect any answers to my questions because there is no justification for placing those (and other) menu items where they are in Finale that I can see. But obviously someone found great justification for making those decisions. I don't find the Finale menus any less confusing that the Sibelius ribbon, and ultimately things become comfortable once we start using them regularly. So I rarely am using the Find in Ribbon feature of Sibelius these days, but I sure could use one for Finale, which they very conveniently didn't include. I would think that would be a utility that everybody who uses new versions of Finale could benefit from, yet it's not under the Utilities menu and not under any other menu either. Ultimately one person's wow, that is so intuitive! is another person's holy cow, why on earth would they hide that entry under that heading, it makes no sense whatsoever?! One great benefit of Sibelius, which I hope Finale will someday institute natively, not requiring a plug-in, is the ability of a user to define their own keyboard shortcuts, so the entire interface practically can be turned into keyboard shortcuts. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
On 8/21/2012 8:54 AM, Williams, Jim wrote: Whoops--hit send too soon. Evidently some of these locations are sacrosanct. A while ago I suggested a small number of relocations and was chewed out by a power user. Which just shows that A) it's what we use most and thus learn well that we can deal with best and B) what's logical to one person isn't logical to another. :-) -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
As a twenty year Finale user (2.0) who is now experiencing Sibelius, I heartily concur. Obviously I haven't had time to learn or define all my shortcuts, but it is reassuring to know that the capability is there. With each new version of Finale, I spend an inordinate amount of time redefining my 3rd party keystroke shortcuts. Should MakeMusic introduce the tabs and ribbon interface into the next generation of Finale, I would hope they also re-write the code so as to reduce the number of keystrokes required to edit a score. The recent change to Simple Entry is an example. Using Sibelius has obviated my previous need for RSI treatment. On 21/08/2012, at 10:35 PM, David H. Bailey wrote: I can't argue with you on any of the points you mention -- but a few versions ago Finale restructured its menus and I find many of their decisions just as unintuitive as any ribbon structure I've seen. For example, I've never understood why show active layer only was under the View menu in Finale when it was really most useful while editing and so my intuition always looked for it under the Edit menu. But I eventually got used to it, but now it's under the Document menu! Well practically everything in Finale works on the current Document, so why didn't they put *everything* under the Document menu? Why take something that has to do with how someone *views* the music or how someone *edits* the music and place it in a menu that to my intuition would most likely be where the page margins and other layout issues would be placed? And why is Transpose under Utilities instead of Edit? And why is respell notes under Utilities while Enharmonic Spelling is under Edit? You don't edit the music with the entry Enharmonic Spelling -- you tell the program how to interpret things. So wouldn't that be a Utility or at the least a Preference? While actually respelling the notes is part of editing the music isn't it? Why is Save Preferences under File while the actual defining of the preferences is under the Edit menu? Shouldn't everything that pertains to Preferences be together? I don't expect any answers to my questions because there is no justification for placing those (and other) menu items where they are in Finale that I can see. But obviously someone found great justification for making those decisions. I don't find the Finale menus any less confusing that the Sibelius ribbon, and ultimately things become comfortable once we start using them regularly. So I rarely am using the Find in Ribbon feature of Sibelius these days, but I sure could use one for Finale, which they very conveniently didn't include. I would think that would be a utility that everybody who uses new versions of Finale could benefit from, yet it's not under the Utilities menu and not under any other menu either. Ultimately one person's wow, that is so intuitive! is another person's holy cow, why on earth would they hide that entry under that heading, it makes no sense whatsoever?! One great benefit of Sibelius, which I hope Finale will someday institute natively, not requiring a plug-in, is the ability of a user to define their own keyboard shortcuts, so the entire interface practically can be turned into keyboard shortcuts. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
From: jphill...@makemusic.com We have no plans to implement a ribbon style interface. Woohoo! C. -- Colin Broom http://soundcloud.com/colinbroom -- --- Justin Phillips Senior Product Manager MakeMusic, Inc 952-388-3064 On 8/21/12 5:08 AM, Colin Broom colin_br...@hotmail.com wrote: I have a really horrible feeling that a modernized Finale product that takes advantage of current technology and workflows is probably going to involve tabs replacing the traditional menus, like MS Office, and those recently introduced in Sibelius 7. I really hope not, as I think it was a terrible move on Sibelius's part, taking up loads of space on screen and massively counter-intuitive, but it really wouldn't surprise me if this is what happens. C. -- Colin Broomhttp://soundcloud.com/colinbroom -- From: m_law...@btinternet.com To: finale@shsu.edu Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 07:59:46 +0100 Subject: Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results I have noticed that the upgrade price to 2012b is now lower than it was a while ago and thinking if it was worthwhile upgrading (from 2009) or waiting for the modernized Finale product that takes advantage of current technology and workflows. Technology companies don't usually drop prices if they think the current generation is still worthwhile. Any guesses? Regards, Michael Lawlor ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
To me, the strangest menu location of all is Update Smart Word Extensions and Hyphens, which is not logically under Lyrics but is seven notches to the left, under Utilities. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 8:35 AM, David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com wrote: ... a few versions ago Finale restructured its menus and I find many of their decisions just as unintuitive as any ribbon structure I've seen. For example, I've never understood why show active layer only was under the View menu in Finale when it was really most useful while editing and so my intuition always looked for it under the Edit menu. But I eventually got used to it, but now it's under the Document menu! Well practically everything in Finale works on the current Document, so why didn't they put *everything* under the Document menu? Why take something that has to do with how someone *views* the music or how someone *edits* the music and place it in a menu that to my intuition would most likely be where the page margins and other layout issues would be placed? And why is Transpose under Utilities instead of Edit? And why is respell notes under Utilities while Enharmonic Spelling is under Edit? You don't edit the music with the entry Enharmonic Spelling -- you tell the program how to interpret things. So wouldn't that be a Utility or at the least a Preference? While actually respelling the notes is part of editing the music isn't it? Why is Save Preferences under File while the actual defining of the preferences is under the Edit menu? Shouldn't everything that pertains to Preferences be together? I don't expect any answers to my questions because there is no justification for placing those (and other) menu items where they are in Finale that I can see. But obviously someone found great justification for making those decisions. I don't find the Finale menus any less confusing that the Sibelius ribbon, and ultimately things become comfortable once we start using them regularly. So I rarely am using the Find in Ribbon feature of Sibelius these days, but I sure could use one for Finale, which they very conveniently didn't include. I would think that would be a utility that everybody who uses new versions of Finale could benefit from, yet it's not under the Utilities menu and not under any other menu either. Ultimately one person's wow, that is so intuitive! is another person's holy cow, why on earth would they hide that entry under that heading, it makes no sense whatsoever?! One great benefit of Sibelius, which I hope Finale will someday institute natively, not requiring a plug-in, is the ability of a user to define their own keyboard shortcuts, so the entire interface practically can be turned into keyboard shortcuts. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
On 8/21/2012 11:28 AM, Raymond Horton wrote: To me, the strangest menu location of all is Update Smart Word Extensions and Hyphens, which is not logically under Lyrics but is seven notches to the left, under Utilities. An experiment we might all try is to list all the menu and submenu (but not context menu) choices and reorganize them into what we each feel is most logical and see if there is any concensus of a better place to move the menu items around -- with the release of 2014 almost a year away there might be time for the development team to at least make the menus more logical for more people. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
On 2012-08-21 17:28, Raymond Horton wrote: To me, the strangest menu location of all is Update Smart Word Extensions and Hyphens, which is not logically under Lyrics but is seven notches to the left, under Utilities. IMO, to duplicate it in the lyrics menu could make sense, but not to remove it from its current place. That feature is related to both the music, spacing and lyrics. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
I disagree. This may be a large part of the problem with simplifying the menu! Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Jari Williamsson jari.williams...@mailbox.swipnet.se wrote: On 2012-08-21 17:28, Raymond Horton wrote: To me, the strangest menu location of all is Update Smart Word Extensions and Hyphens, which is not logically under Lyrics but is seven notches to the left, under Utilities. IMO, to duplicate it in the lyrics menu could make sense, but not to remove it from its current place. That feature is related to both the music, spacing and lyrics. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
based on what? justin has already mentioned this isn't in the plans, but i would mention that while i encourage thoughtful criticism of the implementation of certain fetaures, i would also point out that there is no justification for these kinds of paranoias :-) I have a really horrible feeling that a modernized Finale product that takes advantage of current technology and workflows is probably going to involve tabs replacing the traditional menus, like MS Office, and those recently introduced in Sibelius 7. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
huh? you mean like metatools? i.e. 35+ slots for user-defined shortcuts in each of the measure, staff style, articulation, tuplet and expression tools? and even smart shapes? One great benefit of Sibelius, which I hope Finale will someday institute natively, not requiring a plug-in, is the ability of a user to define their own keyboard shortcuts, so the entire interface practically can be turned into keyboard shortcuts. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
Refresh my memory -- metatools are key combinations that work from any tool in the program? Or do you have to be in the tool for which the metatool was programmed? So if I define a metatool for the Measure tool and then try to use it while the Staff tool is active, will it work as I defined it to work in the Measure tool? So if I define ctrl-k to change a barline to a double bar, it will always do that no matter what tool I'm in? And they are definable from one single interface in the preferences dialog? Finale's metatools are quite different from Sibelius's keyboard shortcuts, and people who want such convenience in Finale end up have to use additional software to do anything like what Sibelius's shortcuts can do. The way the Sibelius shortcuts work, you can use a keyboard-shortcut anyplace and it will always do exactly what you defined it to do. And how about for calling menu functions? Are those user-definable shortcuts in Finale? I don't seem to remember us being able to change those. David H. Bailey On 8/21/2012 7:52 PM, SN jef chippewa wrote: huh? you mean like metatools? i.e. 35+ slots for user-defined shortcuts in each of the measure, staff style, articulation, tuplet and expression tools? and even smart shapes? One great benefit of Sibelius, which I hope Finale will someday institute natively, not requiring a plug-in, is the ability of a user to define their own keyboard shortcuts, so the entire interface practically can be turned into keyboard shortcuts. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
Plus the keyboard remapping in TGTools. I've had all the function keys programmed with TGTools for so long I had to double-check to make sure I was doing it that way. Seems a normal part of the program for me now. huh? you mean like metatools? i.e. 35+ slots for user-defined shortcuts in each of the measure, staff style, articulation, tuplet and expression tools? and even smart shapes? One great benefit of Sibelius, which I hope Finale will someday institute natively, not requiring a plug-in, is the ability of a user to define their own keyboard shortcuts, so the entire interface practically can be turned into keyboard shortcuts. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
Refresh my memory -- metatools are key combinations that work from any tool in the program? Or do you have to be in the tool for which the metatool was programmed? So if I define a metatool for the Measure tool and then try to use it while the Staff tool is active, will it work as I defined it to work in the Measure tool? So if I define ctrl-k to change a barline to a double bar, it will always do that no matter what tool I'm in? And they are definable from one single interface in the preferences dialog? They are attached to specific tools. Finale's metatools are quite different from Sibelius's keyboard shortcuts, and people who want such convenience in Finale end up have to use additional software to do anything like what Sibelius's shortcuts can do. TGTools does keyboard mapping. It matters not at all to me that it is additional software. And how about for calling menu functions? Are those user-definable shortcuts in Finale? I don't seem to remember us being able to change those. Again, TGTools. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
See http://www.virtual-strategy.com/2012/08/07/makemusic-reports-second-quarter-2012-results It includes the comment Development efforts are well underway towards a mid-2013 launch of a modernized Finale product that takes advantage of current technology and workflows. My interpretation is that they are biting the bullet to get away from the database/programming environment they have built everything around forever, but that wont be done in 2013, so they are going to put out one more release on the old platform. Is that how others read it? I guess another way to read it is that they are incrementally upgrading some layers of their software, but they want to retain compatibility with current technology, meaning plug-ins and scripts ??? That would be more consistent with the decision to skip the annual upgrade. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
this is a little false interpretation, no? i mean that as i recall, the releases don't usually come out in the 2nd quarter... so wouldn't have an effect on that quarter's revenue anyways. or the increase is in fact BECAUSE (not in spite of the fact that) there will not be an upgrade this year. e.g. could be that some people who would have otherwise waited for the next version purchased the software then...? COO and CFO Karen VanDerBosch added, ³Revenue rose 21% for the quarter. This is particularly notable without having the benefit of an annual release of our Finale® notation software. ... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
Finale releases have typically occurred from around May-June, so usually about halfway through Q2 with a ton of upgrades and new purchases within a short period. --- Justin Phillips Senior Product Manager MakeMusic, Inc 952-388-3064 On 8/19/12 11:24 AM, SN jef chippewa shirl...@newmusicnotation.com wrote: this is a little false interpretation, no? i mean that as i recall, the releases don't usually come out in the 2nd quarter... so wouldn't have an effect on that quarter's revenue anyways. or the increase is in fact BECAUSE (not in spite of the fact that) there will not be an upgrade this year. e.g. could be that some people who would have otherwise waited for the next version purchased the software then...? COO and CFO Karen VanDerBosch added, ³Revenue rose 21% for the quarter. This is particularly notable without having the benefit of an annual release of our Finale® notation software. ... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
ah, hm, maybe i was thinking about when *i* usually get around to upgrading ;-) Finale releases have typically occurred from around May-June, so usually about halfway through Q2 with a ton of upgrades and new purchases within a short period. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 2nd Quarter 2012 results
I think you are right that they might be burnishing the story a little. I suppose there is an argument that when they come out with a new release annually, some people might place an order before the June quarter ends, particularly if the company said order now and you will get a free upgrade to the new release when it ships. But I would think there would be more people who would delay a purchase into the quarter ending September. And by skipping a major release (and providing a minor release instead,) they eliminated a reason to delay. But I was more interested in what the press release implies for the release expected in about 9 months. On 8/19/2012 2:18 PM, SN jef chippewa wrote: ah, hm, maybe i was thinking about when *i* usually get around to upgrading ;-) Finale releases have typically occurred from around May-June, so usually about halfway through Q2 with a ton of upgrades and new purchases within a short period. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
