Re: [Finale] Handwritten fonts
Aaron Sherber wrote: At 09:17 PM 03/18/2005, Carl Dershem wrote: I'm glad I'm not the only one that pulls their hair out when they run across this. It looks so professional, it MUST be right! when the parts make no sense at all... Better: When you point out a wrong note in the (Finale-generated) part and are told, No, I checked the score, and it's the same note there. Well, that is a bit more difficult, isn't it? Especially for new works for which there are no historical sources to check. It's one thing to find a wrong note in a modern engraving of a Mozart symphony, but it's a completely different thing to find a wrong note in a brand new work. Perhaps the composer wants that effect. If the score and the parts don't match, that's one thing. If the score and the parts DO match, it's different. Even better is going to check the manuscript and finding the same wrong notes there. Only checking with the composer can resolve that point. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Handwritten fonts
Carl Dershem wrote: John Bell wrote: Computers arrived. One of the first problems I encountered then was that players, given beautifully printed parts, couldn't believe that there was a wrong note there -- it was printed as F# so it must be F#. Some composers and arrangers found that using the Jazz or Inkpen font ameliorated this situation. Players seeing the handwritten font no longer felt that their parts had somehow been authorised by a superior body. I'm glad I'm not the only one that pulls their hair out when they run across this. It looks so professional, it MUST be right! when the parts make no sense at all... I used to work for a music store where the invoices were all either hand-written or typed manually, and they would get ignored for long times. The owner bought a word-processor and the manager of the music department figured out how to get calculations done and came up with an invoice form and began doing regular statements which looked professional. The invoices started being paid so quickly, it was really amusing. I wonder where this the machine can't be wrong mind-set came from -- I was never actively taught it that I can remember. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Handwritten fonts
At 06:37 AM 03/19/2005, dhbailey wrote: Aaron Sherber wrote: Better: When you point out a wrong note in the (Finale-generated) part and are told, No, I checked the score, and it's the same note there. Well, that is a bit more difficult, isn't it? Especially for new works for which there are no historical sources to check. It's one thing to find a wrong note in a modern engraving of a Mozart symphony, but it's a completely different thing to find a wrong note in a brand new work. Perhaps the composer wants that effect. Sorry, my earlier post was too brief. I was writing from the perspective of conductor and arranger/editor. I will occasionally point out a wrong note in the parts which I myself prepared in Finale and will be told by the player that he looked in my score during the break and found the same note there. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Handwritten fonts
On 17 Mar 2005, at 11:00 PM, John Bell wrote: I have a small project in which I do want to produce some music that looks handwritten. My own style, pre-computer, was distinctive in that I attached all stems, whether up or down ones, to the right-hand side of note-heads. Is there any way that this can be achieved with Jazz or Inkpen? John, I'm afraid I think that's an absolutely awful idea. Just because you want a project to look handwritten, that doesn't give you license to make up the rules as you go along. If you really want it to look like authentic manuscript, get a copy of Clinton Roemer's _The Art of Music Copying_ and follow his practices. There's good and bad handwritten music, just as there is good and bad engraving. Putting all downstems on the right-hand side of the notehead falls squarely in the latter category. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Handwritten fonts
Darcy, I completely agree with you. I wasn't for a moment trying to defend my former shameful habits. I just wondered if it was possible, for this one very particular project, to adopt this unorthodox style. John On 18 Mar 2005, at 11:42, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 17 Mar 2005, at 11:00 PM, John Bell wrote: I have a small project in which I do want to produce some music that looks handwritten. My own style, pre-computer, was distinctive in that I attached all stems, whether up or down ones, to the right-hand side of note-heads. Is there any way that this can be achieved with Jazz or Inkpen? John, I'm afraid I think that's an absolutely awful idea. Just because you want a project to look handwritten, that doesn't give you license to make up the rules as you go along. If you really want it to look like authentic manuscript, get a copy of Clinton Roemer's _The Art of Music Copying_ and follow his practices. There's good and bad handwritten music, just as there is good and bad engraving. Putting all downstems on the right-hand side of the notehead falls squarely in the latter category. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Handwritten fonts
Thanks Brad, I know that I can adjust the vertical position of the stem here. But it is its horizontal placement that I want to change. John On 18 Mar 2005, at 04:24, Brad Beyenhof wrote: I have a small project in which I do want to produce some music that looks handwritten. My own style, pre-computer, was distinctive in that I attached all stems, whether up or down ones, to the right-hand side of note-heads. Is there any way that this can be achieved with Jazz or Inkpen? In Document Options Stems, you can set Stem Connections for the closed (font character 207) and open (font character 250) noteheads in order to attach the stems to the noteheads in any place you choose. -- Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Life would be so much easier if only (3/2)^12=(2/1)^7. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Handwritten fonts
Darcy James Argue wrote: On 17 Mar 2005, at 11:00 PM, John Bell wrote: John, I'm afraid I think that's an absolutely awful idea. Just because you want a project to look handwritten, that doesn't give you license to make up the rules as you go along. If you really want it to look like authentic manuscript, get a copy of Clinton Roemer's _The Art of Music Copying_ and follow his practices. There's good and bad handwritten music, just as there is good and bad engraving. Putting all downstems on the right-hand side of the notehead falls squarely in the latter category. I have to respectfully object to this. There are no rules in music notation, there are only conventions. There are no institutions which determine the rules for notational practice in the way that some languages are regulated by national Institutes or Academies. And if there were such an institution, I'd surely feel no obligation to follow it. Music notation has changed without interruption over time and contemporary practice is anything but uniform. The Jazz manuscript style has a number of conventions that many classical musicians find appalling and probably the vice versa is also the case. I enjoy playing early music in historical notations and contemporary music with new ideas about notation and like that diversity. The composer Christian Wolff, for example, has a manuscript style (with wavy barring) that is decidedly unorthodox for contemporary practice, but recalls a manuscript practice with real historical pedigree Personally, I would probably dislike reading a score with unconventional stemming, although I can imagine some some compositional rationale for doing it (e.g. in an extremely complex rhythmic environment, this would aid in creating a notion that is proportional both in note value and spatial position). I haven't yet written anything where such a practice would be useful for my own music, but I reserve the right to do so and certainly defend Mr. Bell's right to do the same. Whethere such an innovation ever gets accepted by musicians in any number is an independent issue: aesthetic ideas compete in a market, although that particular market's decisions are rarely executed with the precision of ordinary economics. I realize that saying that there are no rules may be a particular affront to teachers of music. After all, particularly when one has to grade a student exercise as right or wrong, it's convenient to have a fixed reference. But I believe that this is not honestly conveying the complexity of real musical life where both diversity and innovation compete constantly with convention, making an ever surprising and lively mix. If we take students seriously, we owe them some honesty about this. Daniel Wolf Budapest ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Handwritten fonts
At 3:45 PM +0100 3/18/05, Daniel Wolf wrote: Personally, I would probably dislike reading a score with unconventional stemming, although I can imagine some some compositional rationale for doing it (e.g. in an extremely complex rhythmic environment, this would aid in creating a notion that is proportional both in note value and spatial position). Actually, in the early days of mensural notation (13th and 14th centuries) the placement of stems conveyed information about note durations that was absolutely essential. That started changing in the 15th century, although one of the stumbling blocks in 16th century notation (for a modern reader) is the continued use of the 2-note ligature with opposite propriety indicating two semibreve durations. I would certainly agree that using notational conventions appropriate to the time and place is the best way to assure communication between the composer and the performers. For example, we are presently preparing the Saint-Saens A minor cello concerto, and the printed parts use a backwards 8th rest to indicate a quarter rest. I can accept that this was conventional for French printers during Saint-Saens lifetime (and I'm well aware that it goes back to Franco's original invention of signs for rest durations in the mid-13th century), but it is an impediment to fluent sightreading in the early 21st century. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Handwritten fonts
On Mar 17, 2005, at 11:00 PM, John Bell wrote: I know that the Jazz font is quite popular with writers and players who are accustomed to handwritten music. Personally I have always regarded it as rather silly, if you're using a computer, to pretend that you're not. But I do recognize that some people like to feel that the music is new, has just been written, and is not yet set in stone. The Inkpen font is also popular with Sibelius users. I have a small project in which I do want to produce some music that looks handwritten. My own style, pre-computer, was distinctive in that I attached all stems, whether up or down ones, to the right-hand side of note-heads. Is there any way that this can be achieved with Jazz or Inkpen? John As Brad mentioned, in Document OptionStems, select the button Stem Connections. Select your quarter note head, hit Edit. Drag the bottom stem to the right of the notehead. Repeat for the half note head. If I may venture a response to your comment about inkpen type music fonts being silly, it is not about trying to pretend that it wasn't written on a computer. I often use standard serif fonts for titles and the like, along with JazzFont noteheads, for example. It's about trying to make the music look as much like what a musician is used to seeing as possible, so that they can relax and not have decode every marking separately (like reading words phonetically, how fast do you read like that, for example - upside down?) In addition, some glyphs do not exist in the other fonts that are essential for proper notation of jazz music. And as for the not set in stone thing, you got that part right, but it's not so much about it being new, it's about giving some control over the final sound to the performer. All written music has elements of that philosophy, but it is essential to good jazz, and a stricter engraved look conveys more of a do it THIS way authority than a hand font does. I have often seen this effect, and though I am a pragmatist in as many ways as I can be, I recognize that a good state of mind on the performer's part is essential for good music, so I try to help that along any way I can, up to and including bringing coffee and cookies to the reading session, and using an inkpen font on the parts. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Handwritten fonts
In a message dated 18/03/2005 21:00:20 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: which convention, for what it's worth, is also frequently used in the music printed in England between 1850 and about 1900, especially by the firm Novello and Company. It was used long before 1850 - I'm working on a piece from 1760 at the moment which uses the same type of rests. In fact very many of the orchestral parts I've played over the years have used this type of crotchet rest. It's hardly a novelty. All the best, Lawrence "þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg"http://lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Handwritten fonts
John Howell wrote: For example, we are presently preparing the Saint-Saens A minor cello concerto, and the printed parts use a backwards 8th rest to indicate a quarter rest. which convention, for what it's worth, is also frequently used in the music printed in England between 1850 and about 1900, especially by the firm Novello and Company. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Handwritten fonts
John Bell wrote: Computers arrived. One of the first problems I encountered then was that players, given beautifully printed parts, couldn't believe that there was a wrong note there -- it was printed as F# so it must be F#. Some composers and arrangers found that using the Jazz or Inkpen font ameliorated this situation. Players seeing the handwritten font no longer felt that their parts had somehow been authorised by a superior body. I'm glad I'm not the only one that pulls their hair out when they run across this. It looks so professional, it MUST be right! when the parts make no sense at all... cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Handwritten fonts
On 18 Mar 2005, at 11:42, Darcy James Argue wrote: I have a small project in which I do want to produce some music that looks handwritten. My own style, pre-computer, was distinctive in that I attached all stems, whether up or down ones, to the right-hand side of note-heads. Is there any way that this can be achieved with Jazz or Inkpen? John, I'm afraid I think that's an absolutely awful idea. Just because you want a project to look handwritten, that doesn't give you license to make up the rules as you go along. If you really want it to look like authentic manuscript, get a copy of Clinton Roemer's _The Art of Music Copying_ and follow his practices. There's good and bad handwritten music, just as there is good and bad engraving. Putting all downstems on the right-hand side of the notehead falls squarely in the latter category. When I was a student, my professor was a stuffy old fool who complained about my habit of always attaching stems to the RH side of noteheads. I stuck to my system because it saved time (if a notehead is 4mm long, each downward stem involves moving the hand back 4mm). Bear in mind this was the 1960s and we also believed that we had just discovered sex. I became a free-lance arranger. Over several years my hand developed and became fluent. People commented on the visual attractiveness of my scores, copyists told me how easy it was to read them. I took a pride in the layout of my scores, their organisation, and the handwriting. Computers arrived. One of the first problems I encountered then was that players, given beautifully printed parts, couldn't believe that there was a wrong note there -- it was printed as F# so it must be F#. Some composers and arrangers found that using the Jazz or Inkpen font ameliorated this situation. Players seeing the handwritten font no longer felt that their parts had somehow been authorised by a superior body. Meanwhile in the outside world multi-national organisations like the Readers Digest were sending out mail in pseudo-handwriting fonts to millions of people asking for their Visa and Mastercard numbers. My father-in-law is 87. However often I tell him to the contrary, he still believes that Readers' Digest is writing personally to him, by hand. Surely most professional musicians are not so easily fooled. For some years their parts have been computer-generated. They know that these parts are just as prone to human error as any others. My original question about attaching stems had nothing to do with what is conventional or orthodox, it was just about how to do it. Brad Beyenhof gave me the definitive answer. Thanks Brad. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Handwritten fonts
At 09:17 PM 03/18/2005, Carl Dershem wrote: I'm glad I'm not the only one that pulls their hair out when they run across this. It looks so professional, it MUST be right! when the parts make no sense at all... Better: When you point out a wrong note in the (Finale-generated) part and are told, No, I checked the score, and it's the same note there. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Handwritten fonts
I know that the Jazz font is quite popular with writers and players who are accustomed to handwritten music. Personally I have always regarded it as rather silly, if you're using a computer, to pretend that you're not. But I do recognize that some people like to feel that the music is new, has just been written, and is not yet set in stone. The Inkpen font is also popular with Sibelius users. I have a small project in which I do want to produce some music that looks handwritten. My own style, pre-computer, was distinctive in that I attached all stems, whether up or down ones, to the right-hand side of note-heads. Is there any way that this can be achieved with Jazz or Inkpen? John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Handwritten fonts
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 04:00:53 +, John Bell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know that the Jazz font is quite popular with writers and players who are accustomed to handwritten music. Personally I have always regarded it as rather silly, if you're using a computer, to pretend that you're not. But I do recognize that some people like to feel that the music is new, has just been written, and is not yet set in stone. The Inkpen font is also popular with Sibelius users. I have a small project in which I do want to produce some music that looks handwritten. My own style, pre-computer, was distinctive in that I attached all stems, whether up or down ones, to the right-hand side of note-heads. Is there any way that this can be achieved with Jazz or Inkpen? In Document Options Stems, you can set Stem Connections for the closed (font character 207) and open (font character 250) noteheads in order to attach the stems to the noteheads in any place you choose. -- Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Life would be so much easier if only (3/2)^12=(2/1)^7. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
