Re: [Finale] OT Bass low B
Darcy James Argue / 05.3.4 / 08:36 PM wrote: I put the low A for the tenor in parentheses so the player knows what the contour of the line is, even if he can't play that note. I occasionally write low A with a note thigh next to it :-) -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT Bass low B
At 9:53 PM + 3/4/05, Ken Moore wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Roger Satorra writes: You're talking about a scordatura. I don't think of all cases of tuning a lower string down as scordatura. I associate that with notation that tells you where to put your fingers, but because the string is tuned in a non-standard manner, the pitch that comes out is not the one notated. That is what I recall from the Bach suites for unaccompanied 'cello. Do any readers know differently? The article in New Grove runs almost 6 full column, and is quite complete. I summarize and excerpt: Scordatura. It. from scordare: 'to mistune.' A mistuning of string instruments, notablhy lutes and violins. Scordatura was first used early in the 16th century and enjoyed a vogue between 1600 and 1750. Thereafter it was used less and less, and it is now rare. ... Any tuning of the violin other than its established tuning is defined as a scordatura. On the other hand, since the viola d'amore probably had no standard tuning before about 17j50 (after which a D major/minor tuning was most common), any viola d'amore tuning before 1750 is more properly called 'accordatura.' Scordatura has certain advantages which prompted its use: 1. Extend the range downward by tuning the lowest string a tone lower. 2. Make certain passages easier or possible. [Example: Biber's 'Mystery' Sonata No. 11.] 3. Produce special effects. [Example: Stravinsky's 'Firebird Suite.'] 4. Increase brilliance. [Examples: viola in Mozart's 'Sinfonie Concertante,' violin in Paganini's Violin Concerto No. 1.] 5. Produce mixed sonorities. [i.e. change the sound of the instrument.] Out of consideration for the player (whose fingerings are based on the normal tuning), scordatura pieces are generally written so that the player reads the music as he would if playing in the normal tuning--in effect a a species of tablature for a kind of transposing instrument. ... In a few cases the actual sounding notes in a scordatura piece are given by the composer, and the player must work out his own fingering [examples given], but 'sounding-notation' is impractical for the player, and consequently it has seldom been used. I'm based in Europe and it's nothing usual for double bass to tune the 5th string to B. Always C. Not in the UK, in my experience, A difference reflected in other usages. The UK bass trombone for years was an instrument in G without valve, which I don't believe was ever used in the U.S., although I'm not sure about Europe. I'm also not sure when the modern Bb/F bass trombone came into use in different places (and the more recent double and triple valve instruments), but it is the size of the bore and the bell that defines the tone quality of the modern bass trombone, not the key it's in. And of course the Viennese winds are quite different from those standard in the rest of the world, even today. and the number of examples of low B being demanded suggests that Austrian practice may not be so, but I don't know for sure. I recall reading somewhere that tuning to B was more common in Europe and less so in the US. The point of tuning to B was mentioned earlier: it keeps the same relationship between the strings and therefore the same correspondence between intervals and finger spacing. I would also think that keeping the string tension even across the bridge would be a consideration. Six-string or five-string electric basses are now common in pop music, and I wonder how they are tuned. And John Denver is alleged to have used a scordatura tuning for his guitar, allowing him to play figurations that would have been unplayable in normal guitar tuning. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT Bass low B
John Howell wrote: Six-string or five-string electric basses are now common in pop music, and I wonder how they are tuned. And John Denver is alleged to have used a scordatura tuning for his guitar, allowing him to play figurations that would have been unplayable in normal guitar tuning. My regular bass player (I'm primarily a jazz player in California) recently got a 5-string bass, and tunes the low string to B. According to him, that's pretty standard. And Joni Mitchell (and others) have been writing songs where the guitar is re-tuned for a LONG time, in popular (or at least relatively popular) music. cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT Bass low B
Six-string or five-string electric basses are now common in pop music, and I wonder how they are tuned. Low B, high C- 4ths all the way. And John Denver is alleged to have used a scordatura tuning for his guitar, allowing him to play figurations that would have been unplayable in normal guitar tuning. Not so unusual for guitarists. Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT Bass low B
...In a few cases the actual sounding notes in a scordatura piece are given by the composer, and the player must work out his own fingering [examples given], but 'sounding-notation' is impractical for the player, and consequently it has seldom been used. 'Actual sounding notes' is the most common way of notating guitar music with scordaturas - the most frequent are: sixth string down to D, and third string down to F sharp (produces the same string intervals as Renaissance lute). Anything much more complicated, e.g. DADGAD, in odd tunings is usually in tablature, . Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT Bass low B
On Mar 4, 2005, at 4:53 PM, Ken Moore wrote: I don't think of all cases of tuning a lower string down as scordatura. I associate that with notation that tells you where to put your fingers, but because the string is tuned in a non-standard manner, the pitch that comes out is not the one notated. That is what I recall from the Bach suites for unaccompanied 'cello. Do any readers know differently? Scordatura is sometimes notated that way, and sometimes at the actual pitch, the convention varying with time, place, and circumstance. Any unorthodox tuning of a stringed instrument is scordatura regardless of the notation. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT Bass low B
On 05 Mar 2005, at 11:18 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: And John Denver is alleged to have used a scordatura tuning for his guitar, allowing him to play figurations that would have been unplayable in normal guitar tuning. Not so unusual for guitarists. Yes -- as Chuck said, that's a wee bit of an understatement. John Denver is hardly an anomaly. There are lots of Jimi Hendrix songs where both he and Noel Redding tune their entire instruments down a half step, drop D tuning was more standard than not for 1990's Seattle grunge bands (and is still widely used), Joni Mitchell has probably used more than fifty different alternate tunings in her songs over the course of her career, and pretty much everyone uses capos at one point or another. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT Bass low B
On Mar 5, 2005, at 1:47 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 05 Mar 2005, at 11:18 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: And John Denver is alleged to have used a scordatura tuning for his guitar, allowing him to play figurations that would have been unplayable in normal guitar tuning. Not so unusual for guitarists. Yes -- as Chuck said, that's a wee bit of an understatement. John Denver is hardly an anomaly. There are lots of Jimi Hendrix songs where both he and Noel Redding tune their entire instruments down a half step, drop D tuning was more standard than not for 1990's Seattle grunge bands (and is still widely used), Joni Mitchell has probably used more than fifty different alternate tunings in her songs over the course of her career, and pretty much everyone uses capos at one point or another. And of course everyone's favourite country-jazz guitarist, Pat Metheny. Some of his chords, too, are positively unplayable on a normally-tuned instrument. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT Bass low B
Christopher Smith wrote: And of course everyone's favourite country-jazz guitarist, Pat Metheny. Some of his chords, too, are positively unplayable on a normally-tuned instrument. Nah - they'er *simple*! If you're double-jointed, and have 16 inch long fingers. :) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT Bass low B
Actually, in the most recent grammy awards, the first Hawaiian Music grammy went to Slack Key Guitar, Vol 2 which an album consisting totally of what most call drop tuning. In Hawai'i, we call it slack key or ki ho'alu. Slack key playing is an art in itself, and tunings can be quite personal, often identified with a particular artist or location, or time. Many of the standard ones have names, such as plantation (G tuning), Wahine, etc. Aside from how easily the playing of full-sounding chords comes out and the ability to have droning strings under the melody, it has the advantage that the sound is more in tune in a way, because the guitar is actually tuned to a particular key and is NOT even-tempered. Almost everyone who learns guitar here learns some slack (drop) tuning. At 10:54 AM 3/5/2005 -0500, John Howell wrote: At 9:53 PM + 3/4/05, Ken Moore wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Roger Satorra writes: You're talking about a scordatura. snip Six-string or five-string electric basses are now common in pop music, and I wonder how they are tuned. And John Denver is alleged to have used a scordatura tuning for his guitar, allowing him to play figurations that would have been unplayable in normal guitar tuning. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale - Bruce K. H. Kau[EMAIL PROTECTED] 'Aina Haina, Honolulu, Hawai'i Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning ... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT Bass low B
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Roger Satorra writes: You're talking about a scordatura. I don't think of all cases of tuning a lower string down as scordatura. I associate that with notation that tells you where to put your fingers, but because the string is tuned in a non-standard manner, the pitch that comes out is not the one notated. That is what I recall from the Bach suites for unaccompanied 'cello. Do any readers know differently? I'm based in Europe and it's nothing usual for double bass to tune the 5th string to B. Always C. Not in the UK, in my experience, and the number of examples of low B being demanded suggests that Austrian practice may not be so, but I don't know for sure. I recall reading somewhere that tuning to B was more common in Europe and less so in the US. The point of tuning to B was mentioned earlier: it keeps the same relationship between the strings and therefore the same correspondence between intervals and finger spacing. Sometimes composers want a note lower than the range of a string instrument and then it's properly indicated that one of the strings has to be tuned down to X (in this case the db to B). I have no recollection of the Also Sprach Zarathustra part giving me any warning. Strauss just assumed that the low B would be available. In Metamorphosen he puts low F# into violin parts, but the brackets around them indicate that he doesn't really expect them to be played and that they are doubled by violas. -- Ken Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: http://www.mooremusic.org.uk/ I reject emails 100k automatically: warn me beforehand if you want to send one ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT Bass low B
On 04 Mar 2005, at 4:53 PM, Ken Moore wrote: In Metamorphosen he puts low F# into violin parts, but the brackets around them indicate that he doesn't really expect them to be played and that they are doubled by violas. I actually did that once with a tenor sax doubling a trombone line. The line went down to low (written) A for the tenor sax, and rather insert a rest (which would interrupt the line), I put the low A for the tenor in parentheses so the player knows what the contour of the line is, even if he can't play that note. It goes by very quickly and the absence of the tenor on a single eighth isn't missed, but I don't want the tenor player to reattack the note following the low A as if it were the beginning of a new line, because it isn't. I get asked about that a lot, though, so I suppose I ought to include an explanatory note in the part. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
