Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
A-NO-NE Music wrote: So, it's not possible to do this with MP3 with XML interface? Most schools have computers these days, no? :-) In all the classrooms? A most definite NO. And while many of the music teachers are fine musicians, I have spoken with a rather large sampling in my area who haven't a clue how to do more than turn a computer on and surf the web and read e-mail. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
At 5:20 AM -0500 2/26/05, dhbailey wrote: A-NO-NE Music wrote: So, it's not possible to do this with MP3 with XML interface? Most schools have computers these days, no? :-) In all the classrooms? A most definite NO. And while many of the music teachers are fine musicians, I have spoken with a rather large sampling in my area who haven't a clue how to do more than turn a computer on and surf the web and read e-mail. NEVER assume (a) that classrooms are equipped with state-of-the-art--they never are; (b) that classrooms have more than a bare minimum of instructional technology available, if that; (c) that schools have maintenance and repair personnel to keep things working; or (d) that classroom teachers are well trained and up to date even in the applications they happen to have available. Many of the computers in classrooms around here are hand-me-downs from universities or businesses. Any developer who assumes state-of-the-art is doomed. It would not surprise me to find Apple IIs in some classrooms. Really! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
dhbailey / 05.2.26 / 05:20 AM wrote: In all the classrooms? A most definite NO. OK. And while many of the music teachers are fine musicians, I have spoken with a rather large sampling in my area who haven't a clue how to do more than turn a computer on and surf the web and read e-mail. Yeah, that's why I said XML interface, as in open web browser and just click. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
On 26 Feb 2005 at 6:52, Owain Sutton wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: Actually, even with the players that don't have index forward/back buttons, if you turn on track display, it should display the index numbers. Huh? The cheap players I've mentioned earlier certainly dno't have that option. Any player that has both a track display and a time display option should show the indexes in the track display. Well, let me alter that: any player that uses the same display for tracks or time should display the indexes. My 1985 player has a button to switch from time to track display, displaying both in the 00:00 format. Of course, my Sony Walkman CD player has both track and time displayed, as in 00 00:00, so there's no possibility of displaying index numbers. But that player doesn't even have fast forward buttons, so it isn't really in the class of players that would be in a classroom. The fact that players in classrooms might be older may very well increase the likelihood of them having track advance buttons! -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
Rocky Road wrote: If you did it as an MP3 disc, the schools could play them on their DVD player. Actually, I do many of my classroom lessons straight off my iPod these days using playlists - we leave an aux-in plug to the HiFi available in the music rooms. These suggestions had me laughing out loud. If the problem is inadequate CD players, what's the chance of adequate DVD players being available? And the problem of knowledge of how to use anything beyond a CD has already been pointed out. PS: Would you believe there are still companies advertising cassettes as the only option for accompanying excerpts. I don't even know if our tape layer still works, its been so long. Would you believe there's schools that don't have a CD player in every classroom used for music lessons? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re(2): [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
I recently read (on ProSoundWeb, I think) a piece on how the CD standard is slipping in that manufacturers are not implementing all the features (such as indexes). This was in the context of CD mastering and that newer CD players may not honor the sizes of the gaps between tracks. **Leigh On Sat, Feb 26, 2005, Owain Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: Actually, even with the players that don't have index forward/back buttons, if you turn on track display, it should display the index numbers. Huh? The cheap players I've mentioned earlier certainly dno't have that option. (And whoever suggested doing the whole thing by computer - yes it'd be nice, but it's far from every classroom that has the computer the speaker system linked together.) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
Listers, I know that there are many tekkie geniuses on this list and maybe one of you with knowledge of the various generations of CD players can answer this one: I'm preparing a set of CDs for an educational project (always a mind-blower, in terms of what people ask for). It's a listening project with really good music for kids to learn, but they require an assessment CD with about a gazillion snips of the tunes for kids to identify. Long story short, The way they wanted it, there were 128 tracks. That's impossible, of course, but I got it down to 96 by talking them out of having a voiceover read the answers to each quiz (I figure even a BAD teacher can read letters and numbers, in a pinch). Also, even at that, the CD is now 79 minutes long, which of course most CD players will accommodate these days. I'm just afraid that some of the schools may be using ancient CD players, some of which will PLAY these CDs, but stop at around 74 minutes. Others may not be able to punch in track numbers above nine or ten (I had one like that back in the day.) Does anyone have a good idea how we might word a warning: Like, If you are using a CD player that was made before 19, you may not be able to access the tracks automatically, and your player may not play the final few minutes of CD2. Please use a newer CD player, and make certain in advance that you can access all of the material. Or somesuch. I don't have to word the final version. What I want to know is: Does anyone have a good approximate cutoff year for players that are pretty much able to do what we need? (Never mind that if music teachers have to punch the advance button ninety or so times, to access the final elements, they will go on disability for repetitive stress syndrome.) Ah... music educators... ya gotta love 'em. Any suggestions welcome, and thanks, Linda Worsley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
Linda Worsley wrote: (Never mind that if music teachers have to punch the advance button ninety or so times, to access the final elements, they will go on disability for repetitive stress syndrome.) Ah... music educators... ya gotta love 'em. I'm no techie guru, but I can tell you that players that would need you to press that damn button 90 times are still very common. And not just old ones. Not that there's much of a way around that, obviously, other than producing multiple CDs (one per chapter, or similar). On the other hand, I've never come across anybody having a problem with 80-minute CDs. After all, a significant proportion of commercial ones (anything from classical through to chart compilations) nudge the 80-minute mark. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
Linda, I have a CD (it's the example set of CD's from Samuel Adler's book The Study of Orchestration that has index numbers in addition to track numbers. This means that Track 1 has five or so examples, each with their own index number, so Track 1.1, 1.2, etc. He manages to squeeze many individual examples onto each CD this way, and it is old; one of the first generations of CDs, so I know it's part of the standard from way back. Not all CD players can get to the individual index numbers, so all you can do is start playing Track 1 and wait for the other index numbers to play before you get to 1.5, but it's probably better than endlessly punching next track every time the CD is played. You can group short examples in the same category together, hopefully starting with one they are likely to start with, and save their trigger fingers for the mouse button! I'm not sure how to do this, as I have never used this feature of the spec myself, but this info might get you on the right track. Christopher On Feb 25, 2005, at 6:26 PM, Linda Worsley wrote: Listers, I know that there are many tekkie geniuses on this list and maybe one of you with knowledge of the various generations of CD players can answer this one: I'm preparing a set of CDs for an educational project (always a mind-blower, in terms of what people ask for). It's a listening project with really good music for kids to learn, but they require an assessment CD with about a gazillion snips of the tunes for kids to identify. Long story short, The way they wanted it, there were 128 tracks. That's impossible, of course, but I got it down to 96 by talking them out of having a voiceover read the answers to each quiz (I figure even a BAD teacher can read letters and numbers, in a pinch). Also, even at that, the CD is now 79 minutes long, which of course most CD players will accommodate these days. I'm just afraid that some of the schools may be using ancient CD players, some of which will PLAY these CDs, but stop at around 74 minutes. Others may not be able to punch in track numbers above nine or ten (I had one like that back in the day.) Does anyone have a good idea how we might word a warning: Like, If you are using a CD player that was made before 19, you may not be able to access the tracks automatically, and your player may not play the final few minutes of CD2. Please use a newer CD player, and make certain in advance that you can access all of the material. Or somesuch. I don't have to word the final version. What I want to know is: Does anyone have a good approximate cutoff year for players that are pretty much able to do what we need? (Never mind that if music teachers have to punch the advance button ninety or so times, to access the final elements, they will go on disability for repetitive stress syndrome.) Ah... music educators... ya gotta love 'em. Any suggestions welcome, and thanks, Linda Worsley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
On 25 Feb 2005 at 18:26, Linda Worsley wrote: What I want to know is: Does anyone have a good approximate cutoff year for players that are pretty much able to do what we need? I just realized the other night that I'm using a 20-year-old CD player as my primary CD player in my stereo system. It's a Magnavox, purchased at the time because it was one of the first over-sampling models. It has served me quite well, though there are 3 elements of the LCD display that don't work. And the sound it produces is better than when I play CDs from my Sony DVD player. I don't know if it plays longer CDs, though. It probably won't (I don't have any to test with -- my longest is 72 minutes and something). (Never mind that if music teachers have to punch the advance button ninety or so times, to access the final elements, they will go on disability for repetitive stress syndrome.) Ah... music educators... ya gotta love 'em. Wouldn't this be better done with index numbers within the tracks? Or do CD players no longer have index advance buttons on them? Not only would it cut down on the number of tracks, if you set it up right it could also cut down on the number of 2-second gaps between tracks, which with 90 of them, could amount to quite a bit of found space, though not enough to get you below 74.5 minutes. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
Christopher Smith wrote: Linda, I have a CD (it's the example set of CD's from Samuel Adler's book The Study of Orchestration that has index numbers in addition to track numbers. This means that Track 1 has five or so examples, each with their own index number, so Track 1.1, 1.2, etc. He manages to squeeze many individual examples onto each CD this way, and it is old; one of the first generations of CDs, so I know it's part of the standard from way back. Not all CD players can get to the individual index numbers, so all you can do is start playing Track 1 and wait for the other index numbers to play before you get to 1.5, but it's probably better than endlessly punching next track every time the CD is played. You can group short examples in the same category together, hopefully starting with one they are likely to start with, and save their trigger fingers for the mouse button! Index numbers are great. But almost no players recognise them - certainly not the players sitting in most classrooms. Really, if you go this route, you have to accept you're creating perhaps a dozen tracks, and there's the very small chance that a few people will be able to use the index function (and also that those same people will know that it exists and know what to do). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
On 25 Feb 2005 at 18:47, Christopher Smith wrote: I'm not sure how to do this, as I have never used this feature of the spec myself, but this info might get you on the right track. It's a matter of setting up your cue sheet when recording to the CD. Here's a sample from a recent cue sheet I've done: PERFORMER NYU Collegium Musicum TITLE Il Giardino d'Amore Side By Side (Viols) FILE F:\Audio\CollegiumCombined\2004-12-Collegium.wav WAVE TRACK 01 AUDIO TITLE Steffani: Saldi marmi, che coprite PERFORMER NYU Collegium Musicum INDEX 01 00:00:00 INDEX 02 01:33:33 INDEX 03 02:54:25 INDEX 04 05:03:25 INDEX 05 05:56:29 INDEX 06 06:51:25 TRACK 02 AUDIO TITLE Legrenzi: Non mi ferir PERFORMER NYU Collegium Musicum INDEX 00 09:06:00 INDEX 01 09:08:00 INDEX 02 12:00:12 TRACK 03 AUDIO TITLE Legrenzi: Di due fiammi PERFORMER NYU Collegium Musicum INDEX 00 14:59:50 INDEX 01 15:01:50 INDEX 02 15:40:00 INDEX 03 16:46:50 INDEX 04 17:23:54 INDEX 05 18:08:35 TRACK 04 AUDIO TITLE Taverner: In Nomine PERFORMER NYU Collegium Musicum INDEX 00 19:09:00 INDEX 01 19:11:00 And so forth. (the lack of a 2-second gap at the beginning of the first rack, which is supposedly required, is a limitation of the software I'm using, EAC, Exact Audio Copy, which simply can't do it) Naturally, you have to have CD-writing software that supports cue sheets, and the index numbers are only useful on CD players that have index advance buttons (which a lot of low-end players lack; I've even noticed that lots of them even lack within-track scan buttons, which makes them useless). -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
At 06:26 PM 2/25/05 -0500, Linda Worsley wrote: What I want to know is: Does anyone have a good approximate cutoff year for players that are pretty much able to do what we need? Okay, you had me curious. So I just burned a 79:58 CDR with the final track only 60 seconds long (so it would have to find the cue point after 74 minutes). Then I dragged out my 1984 Sony D14 portable, which has been sitting quietly for the past few years as it chews through C-batteries (!), and the CD played fine. I cued the last track with no trouble. Also, I played from a point before 74minuntes on the CD through to the end, and it got to the last cue just fine. I also pulled out my KD Show ID CD #1 with 99 tracks, and it played just fine (although it's only 45 minutes). I can't know if that will be the case for other manufacturers, but this 21-year-old CD player worked great! Christopher's suggestion of index numbers probably won't work. We have players capable of that at the radio station, but nobody's ever actually tried to use that feature! Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
At 6:54 PM -0500 2/25/05, David W. Fenton wrote: Wouldn't this be better done with index numbers within the tracks? I considered that option, but at McGraw-Hill, when I was producing their recordings (not that long ago) we found that MANY teachers did not want index points, because they could not access them on their CD players. In fact, my brand new SONY boombox, though it has enough buttons for a 747, will not find indexes. So I have to go with tracks. I agree it's a TERRIBLE idea to have so many tracks, but that's what the asked me for, and mine is not to reason why (within the limits of the technology). Thanks, all, Linda ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
On Feb 25, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Christopher's suggestion of index numbers probably won't work. We have players capable of that at the radio station, but nobody's ever actually tried to use that feature! When you say won't work, do you mean that not all the cues will be audible? Or that (as I had mentioned) that CD players without index fucntions will see just fifteen or so large tracks instead of fifteen tracks divided into smaller index numbers? Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
At 08:22 PM 2/25/05 -0500, Christopher Smith wrote: On Feb 25, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Christopher's suggestion of index numbers probably won't work. We have players capable of that at the radio station, but nobody's ever actually tried to use that feature! When you say won't work, do you mean that not all the cues will be audible? Or that (as I had mentioned) that CD players without index fucntions will see just fifteen or so large tracks instead of fifteen tracks divided into smaller index numbers? Yes, the latter. The index numbers appear on our radio station players and have a separate access control. But none of my many home machines do. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
On 25 Feb 2005 at 20:22, Christopher Smith wrote: On Feb 25, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: Christopher's suggestion of index numbers probably won't work. We have players capable of that at the radio station, but nobody's ever actually tried to use that feature! When you say won't work, do you mean that not all the cues will be audible? Or that (as I had mentioned) that CD players without index fucntions will see just fifteen or so large tracks instead of fifteen tracks divided into smaller index numbers? Actually, even with the players that don't have index forward/back buttons, if you turn on track display, it should display the index numbers. It's remarkable to me how important the index numbers are on DVDs, and how completely underused they are on CDs. I guess it's because most CDs are of music short enough that index numbers are irrelevant -- it's only classical music where the pieces are long enough to merit it. In movies and TV shows on DVD, though, it's essential (and the whole basis for the scene breakdowns that most DVDs have). Is my DVD player unusual in being able to play audio CDs? If not, playing the CDs with indexes on them on a DVD player might give one the access needed. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
So, it's not possible to do this with MP3 with XML interface? Most schools have computers these days, no? :-) -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT somewhat...CD players
David W. Fenton wrote: Actually, even with the players that don't have index forward/back buttons, if you turn on track display, it should display the index numbers. Huh? The cheap players I've mentioned earlier certainly dno't have that option. (And whoever suggested doing the whole thing by computer - yes it'd be nice, but it's far from every classroom that has the computer the speaker system linked together.) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
