Re: [Finale] Key signature question
Is this what you want? Haroldo On Feb 26, 2019, at 10:21, Barbara Touburg wrote: > Key signature 3 flats. > At the end od the system, I need to show a "new" key signature of 4 flats. > At the beginning of the next system, I need to *only* show 3 sharps, without > cancelling the previous 4 flats. > How do I achieve this? > Thanks! > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
Document Options>Key Signatures>cancel outgoing key signature UNchecked. Christopher > On Feb 26, 2019, at 8:21 AM, Barbara Touburg wrote: > > Key signature 3 flats. > At the end od the system, I need to show a "new" key signature of 4 flats. > At the beginning of the next system, I need to *only* show 3 sharps, without > cancelling the previous 4 flats. > How do I achieve this? > Thanks! > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
[Finale] Key signature question
Key signature 3 flats. At the end od the system, I need to show a "new" key signature of 4 flats. At the beginning of the next system, I need to *only* show 3 sharps, without cancelling the previous 4 flats. How do I achieve this? Thanks! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Key signature
On 18-10-2016 17:01, Rafael Leonardo Junchaya wrote: > add some extra space between the cancelled key > and the new one Erm, how do I do that? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Key signature
Sorry, I thought I’d read time signature, not key. *** J D Thomas ThomaStudios > On Oct 18, 2016, at 7:43 AM, Barbara Touburg wrote: > > I'm copying a piece that has the outgoing key signature *before* the > barline and the new key signature *after* the barline. > Is there a way in Finale to accomplish this? > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Key signature
On 18-10-2016 17:01, Rafael Leonardo Junchaya wrote: > By outgoing, do you mean the naturals that are cancelled? If that's the > case, use the normal new key signature (with the cancelling naturals > shown), hide the barline, add some extra space between the cancelled key > and the new one and add a smart shape line as barline. > > R. Great, Rafael! I'll use that method. Quick and easy fix. Thanks! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Key signature
By outgoing, do you mean the naturals that are cancelled? If that's the case, use the normal new key signature (with the cancelling naturals shown), hide the barline, add some extra space between the cancelled key and the new one and add a smart shape line as barline. R. On 18 October 2016 at 17:52, j...@thomastudios.com wrote: > Being that this is a completely redundant notational request, my thinking > is the best and fastest way around it would be to create an expression for > the 2nd time signature, using the default font so it matches. > > *** > J D Thomas > ThomaStudios > > > > > On Oct 18, 2016, at 7:43 AM, Barbara Touburg wrote: > > > > I'm copying a piece that has the outgoing key signature *before* the > > barline and the new key signature *after* the barline. > > Is there a way in Finale to accomplish this? > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Key signature
Being that this is a completely redundant notational request, my thinking is the best and fastest way around it would be to create an expression for the 2nd time signature, using the default font so it matches. *** J D Thomas ThomaStudios > On Oct 18, 2016, at 7:43 AM, Barbara Touburg wrote: > > I'm copying a piece that has the outgoing key signature *before* the > barline and the new key signature *after* the barline. > Is there a way in Finale to accomplish this? > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
[Finale] Key signature
I'm copying a piece that has the outgoing key signature *before* the barline and the new key signature *after* the barline. Is there a way in Finale to accomplish this? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] key signature
'Courtesy Key Signature' Sometimes ‘Cancellation of Outgoing Key Signature’ Steve P. > On 21 Feb 2015, at 10:23, dc wrote: > > Good morning, > > Is there a term in English for the key signature that appears at the end > of a movement (and at the end of the page) for the following movement or > section? > > Thanks, > > Dennis > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
[Finale] key signature solution
Thanks for the info. I woke up in the middle of the night with the idea that holding the part to pitch and going up a 6th to Eb just might come out to C, or no signature... and this morning I found it did, just as Ryan suggested. Thanks to you both. Katherine Hoover ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] key signature problem
Make sure the Transposition is set to none in the Manager Score and eventually, when setting the new key, Choose Hold the Notes to Original Pitches. Giovanni Giovanni Andreani www.giovanniandreani.eu >I have a very chromatic alto sax part. When it was originally copied >(hand copy) this movement was done without a key signature. Finale >insists on putting it in A major, and I have not been able to convert it >to "C major" with the notes in the same place, and the "nonstandard" >doesn't help either. I know I did something like this in the past... >but with 2011 I can't make it work. Any help appreciated! > >Katherine Hoover > >___ >Finale mailing list >Finale@shsu.edu >https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > >To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: >finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] key signature problem
For transposition, choose "other," then choose Chromatic Transposition, Eb up M6. The key signature should go away and accidentals will be added automatically. Sent from my iPad > On Jul 6, 2014, at 6:46 PM, Katherine Hoover > wrote: > > I have a very chromatic alto sax part. When it was originally copied (hand > copy) this movement was done without a key signature. Finale insists on > putting it in A major, and I have not been able to convert it to "C major" > with the notes in the same place, and the "nonstandard" doesn't help either. > I know I did something like this in the past... but with 2011 I can't make it > work. Any help appreciated! > > Katherine Hoover > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: > finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
[Finale] key signature problem
I have a very chromatic alto sax part. When it was originally copied (hand copy) this movement was done without a key signature. Finale insists on putting it in A major, and I have not been able to convert it to "C major" with the notes in the same place, and the "nonstandard" doesn't help either. I know I did something like this in the past... but with 2011 I can't make it work. Any help appreciated! Katherine Hoover ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To unsubscribe from finale send a message to: finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Key signature menus
Bill, it is very simple. For the people for whom the Finale distinction is helpful, the feature is there. For those for whom it is not, they can ignore it and always treat key sigs like a major key, no matter what the mode. I don't complain about features that are in the program that I don't use. Well, most of the time. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 3:03 PM, bill sinclair wrote: > > > I talked to a couple of composers I know: > > Thay don't make any distiction between Major and Minor keys, i.e. > G natural minor is the same as Bb major as far as they're concerned. > > If it was harmonic or melodic minor, they put accidentals where appropriate. > > But for them it's notation on a printed page. They are not as involved in > software > issues like we are talking about here. They turn that over to a copyist. > > However, a copyist dees NOT know which kind it is when he sees the key > signature. He just sees > "two flats." So, giving them an artificial name is nonsensical. > > In other words, the composer/arranger does not say "by the way this is G > minor, not Bb major" or vica versa. > > bill sinclair > billsi...@aol.com > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature menus
At 8:49 PM +0100 4/22/12, Steve Parker wrote: > >If a copyist cannot see the difference between >major and minor in a score then find another >copyist. Historically, however, typesetters (in the 16th and 17th centuries) or engravers (in the 18th and 19th) were craftsmen but not necessarily musicians at all. (Same thing for monks with feathers in previous centuries!) It was the editors who gave them the final copy to set or engrave, and they copied what was put in front of them. Then proofreaders (often recruited among college students in 16th century Paris) checked the final version against the edited original. And STILL errors crept in, as we know very well! The lines have become blurred in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, when an engraver or copyist might indeed be a musician, perhaps a budding composer or arranger who is trying to get a foot in the door, and when composers and arrangers often count on their copyists to know more about the specifics of notation than the composers themselves seem to! (On the other hand, Anita Dukoff, who was a vocalist with Billy May, said that Billy would copy out parts for a new chart on the band bus on the way to a gig, sometimes roaring drunk, put them in front of the band cold, and they were always perfect!) When my late wife was a composition major in college (long pre-computer engraving), they were required to take a music calligraphy class. The silly professors thought that their music should be readable! I developed a very readable hand just because too much time and confusion would result if I didn't. But "readable" isn't "artistic," and thank goodness we still have major publishers whose standards give us something to look up to. (And if anyone else has suffered through trying to read badly-engraved Contemporary Christian charts out of Nashville they know how much bad engraving can mess up a performance!) John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature menus
On 22 Apr 2012, at 20:03, bill sinclair wrote: > However, a copyist dees NOT know which kind it is when he sees the key > signature. He just sees > "two flats." So, giving them an artificial name is nonsensical. If a copyist cannot see the difference between major and minor in a score then find another copyist. Steve P. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature menus
At 3:03 PM -0400 4/22/12, bill sinclair wrote: >I talked to a couple of composers I know: > >Thay don't make any distiction between Major and Minor keys, i.e. >G natural minor is the same as Bb major as far as they're concerned. > >[snip] >In other words, the composer/arranger does not >say "by the way this is G minor, not Bb major" >or vica versa. I don't doubt your report, but I question whether any composer (who writes tonal music, to be fair) who doesn't KNOW whether he's in a major or a minor key is competent! For someone who writes non-tonal music, of course it doesn't matter, but why would such a composer use key signatures in the first place?!!! But I'd hazard a pure guess that about 99% of the music being written today, across the entire music industry and not just avant guard composers, is indeed tonal and is in a major or minor key with a clear tonal center. And still uses functional harmony and uses tonal centers to define form. And I can't imagine a composer or arranger either not knowing or no caring what key his or her music is in (assuming that it is tonal, of course), or whether it's major, minor, or ambiguous. And the spelling of chord changes (again assuming that functional harmony is used) DOES change according to the key. Or so my Mom, the theory teacher, drummed into me when I was a kid! Musical notation is not and never has been music, which exists only as sound. The notation is a pale reflection of the sound--a blueprint or map, if you like--but the map is not the territory and the blueprint is not the building. It is a means of communicating information to the professionals who must learn to interpret it. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts & Cinema College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön." (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Key signature menus
I talked to a couple of composers I know: Thay don't make any distiction between Major and Minor keys, i.e. G natural minor is the same as Bb major as far as they're concerned. If it was harmonic or melodic minor, they put accidentals where appropriate. But for them it's notation on a printed page. They are not as involved in software issues like we are talking about here. They turn that over to a copyist. However, a copyist dees NOT know which kind it is when he sees the key signature. He just sees "two flats." So, giving them an artificial name is nonsensical. In other words, the composer/arranger does not say "by the way this is G minor, not Bb major" or vica versa. bill sinclair billsi...@aol.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature menus
Ugh... 'there are..' On 21 Apr 2012, at 18:38, Steve Parker wrote: > If we're talking scales then there is > > 1. Natural - in G minor Bb and Eb > I really don't think this is the same as Bb major unless superficially the > drawing of two flats on the stave. > > 2. Melodic minor - Bb E and F# ascending but F Eb and Bb descending > > 3. Harmonic minor - Bb Eb and F# > > People use accidentals on the natural minor key signature because the notes > *are* accidentals. > No piece is written in any of these as a mode. > > Bartok used just an Eb and also the Bb F# combination as key signatures. > > Non-standard key sigs are pretty dated. > Modern composers will either use standard or null. > > This seems like a complaint about something Finale actually treats like a > musician would. > > Steve P. > > On 21 Apr 2012, at 17:13, bill sinclair wrote: > >> What you say is true, BUT >> There are three different patterns. >> 1) Natural minor is 2 flats, on B and E. That's >> identical to the Bb major key. (standard) >> 2( Melodic minor is 1 flat on E. >> 3) Harmonic minor if one flat (E) and one sharp (F). >> Practically all orchestraters or composers would just use the natural minor, >> and put accidentals where appropriate. >> >> In the last 20 years I have not seen a non-standard key signature like we >> are talking about here. Modern classical composers are more likely to do >> that. >> >> >> >> >> bill sinclair >> billsi...@aol.com >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature menus
If we're talking scales then there is 1. Natural - in G minor Bb and Eb I really don't think this is the same as Bb major unless superficially the drawing of two flats on the stave. 2. Melodic minor - Bb E and F# ascending but F Eb and Bb descending 3. Harmonic minor - Bb Eb and F# People use accidentals on the natural minor key signature because the notes *are* accidentals. No piece is written in any of these as a mode. Bartok used just an Eb and also the Bb F# combination as key signatures. Non-standard key sigs are pretty dated. Modern composers will either use standard or null. This seems like a complaint about something Finale actually treats like a musician would. Steve P. On 21 Apr 2012, at 17:13, bill sinclair wrote: > What you say is true, BUT > There are three different patterns. > 1) Natural minor is 2 flats, on B and E. That's > identical to the Bb major key. (standard) > 2( Melodic minor is 1 flat on E. > 3) Harmonic minor if one flat (E) and one sharp (F). > Practically all orchestraters or composers would just use the natural minor, > and put accidentals where appropriate. > > In the last 20 years I have not seen a non-standard key signature like we > are talking about here. Modern classical composers are more likely to do that. > > > > > bill sinclair > billsi...@aol.com > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Key signature menus
What you say is true, BUT There are three different patterns. 1) Natural minor is 2 flats, on B and E. That's identical to the Bb major key. (standard) 2( Melodic minor is 1 flat on E. 3) Harmonic minor if one flat (E) and one sharp (F). Practically all orchestraters or composers would just use the natural minor, and put accidentals where appropriate. In the last 20 years I have not seen a non-standard key signature like we are talking about here. Modern classical composers are more likely to do that. bill sinclair billsi...@aol.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] key signature fix
Thanks, Listers. I was hoping there was a straight forward fix. I remember having to call it Bb Major in the past. But when putting in chord symbols, it's a big pain to be working in the wrong mode. What I've done though is make the first measure in Bb, then the following measures in G Minor and i've hidden the key signature change. It works pretty well on scores for small ensembles. Transposing instruments get tricky. I was hoping that there was a one-button solution to the issue though. And Raymond, I would LOVE to have a feature that automatically put double bars at key changes! As long as it wasn't made fubar by, for example, a change from Bb Clarinet to A Clarinet through the use of a staff style. I can imagine the bugs that would be in the initial release! On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 8:12 PM, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: > Ryan wrote: > > I've forgotten the cure for this: >> Going from Eb Major to G Minor key signatures. Finale displays three >> naturals to cancel the original key then two flats for the new key. >> > > Try (in FIN 2010) > > I'm not sure this will work, but you can start with > > Documents > Document Options > Key Signatures, and uncheck "cancel outgoing > key signatures". > > The result of unchecking this option is that when you change key signatures > you get only the new signature. Going from Eb major to G minor, one option > might be to add the a-natural in the same relative position as the a-flat in > the key signature on the first instance, and this might be done with a > character expression. > > However, This might not be as simple in certain other combinations of key > signatures since I seem to recall that one of the few distances over which > one has no possible control is the distance between the clef (or barline) > and the key signature, so in some cases one might need a more devious > work-around. For example, a staff style which hides the new key signature, > and then use an expression (and for this one I'd define a shape expression) > which contains the desired key signature. > > ns > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] key signature fix
Ryan wrote: I've forgotten the cure for this: Going from Eb Major to G Minor key signatures. Finale displays three naturals to cancel the original key then two flats for the new key. Try (in FIN 2010) I'm not sure this will work, but you can start with Documents > Document Options > Key Signatures, and uncheck "cancel outgoing key signatures". The result of unchecking this option is that when you change key signatures you get only the new signature. Going from Eb major to G minor, one option might be to add the a-natural in the same relative position as the a-flat in the key signature on the first instance, and this might be done with a character expression. However, This might not be as simple in certain other combinations of key signatures since I seem to recall that one of the few distances over which one has no possible control is the distance between the clef (or barline) and the key signature, so in some cases one might need a more devious work-around. For example, a staff style which hides the new key signature, and then use an expression (and for this one I'd define a shape expression) which contains the desired key signature. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] key signature fix
Christopher Smith wrote: You can use a Bb major key signature (hold note to same pitch so they don't tranpose up a m3!) which might mess up your minor-mode enharmonic defaults, but that is easy enough to fix. C. On Tue Apr 20, at TuesdayApr 20 7:59 PM, Ryan wrote: I've forgotten the cure for this: Going from Eb Major to G Minor key signatures. Finale displays three naturals to cancel the original key then two flats for the new key. I just want the new key signature with one natural to cancel Ab. I know it has to do with going from the major mode to minor mode. Which box do I uncheck to get what I want and where is it? I'm in 2010. ___ I thought for sure that there would be a way to do this under "Document Options - Key Signatures" but there does not appear to be. Bb Major seems to be the only solution. You might want to wait until you are finished inputting notes, so F#s are not misspelled as Gbs. Then change to Bb Major using "Hold notes to original pitches - Chromatically." This would be a good option to put "Document Options - Key Signatures." Another option I would like, presumably under "Document Options - Barlines", is to put a double bar automatically at key changes. This is not possible now, is it? Raymond Horton ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] key signature fix
You can use a Bb major key signature (hold note to same pitch so they don't tranpose up a m3!) which might mess up your minor-mode enharmonic defaults, but that is easy enough to fix. C. On Tue Apr 20, at TuesdayApr 20 7:59 PM, Ryan wrote: I've forgotten the cure for this: Going from Eb Major to G Minor key signatures. Finale displays three naturals to cancel the original key then two flats for the new key. I just want the new key signature with one natural to cancel Ab. I know it has to do with going from the major mode to minor mode. Which box do I uncheck to get what I want and where is it? I'm in 2010. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] key signature fix
Ryan wrote: I've forgotten the cure for this: Going from Eb Major to G Minor key signatures. Finale displays three naturals to cancel the original key then two flats for the new key. I just want the new key signature with one natural to cancel Ab. I know it has to do with going from the major mode to minor mode. Which box do I uncheck to get what I want and where is it? I'm in 2010. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale What happens if you don't tell Finale you're going to G minor, but instead ask it to change the key to Bb major? -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] key signature fix
I've forgotten the cure for this: Going from Eb Major to G Minor key signatures. Finale displays three naturals to cancel the original key then two flats for the new key. I just want the new key signature with one natural to cancel Ab. I know it has to do with going from the major mode to minor mode. Which box do I uncheck to get what I want and where is it? I'm in 2010. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Key signature question
> > > >> I find it curious, and I am trying to wrack my brains > (feeble though > >> they may be) as to just when I became aware of that sort > of stuff. I > >> definitely was aware of it long before I got to college, > and I don't > >> recall ever having it explained to me. I just was observant of the > >> printed music, more observant of many who are far better at their > >> instruments than I am at mine. > >> > > > > > > I think there's a few kindred spirits on this list! My > pupils now are > > the victims of this and of what you've describe. They > don't get the > > choice of glossing over everything prior to the first note > when they > > look at a new piece... > > My students, when I ask them to play a certain exercise or song from > their lesson book, are in for a ragging if they get the key > signature or > the meter wrong. > > But I don't just say "You forgot to check the key signature." > > I'll say something like "I asked you to play exercise number > 5." [snip] Mine get a not-dissimilar treatment, particularly in ensemble situations and especially when teaching them the skills needed for sightreading. I like them to be able to talk me through the whole thought process, in real time, in the moments between being presented with a piece and playing it through. With tonality, metre and rhythm necessarily being the overwhelming priority. In ensembles, I try to show those on treble instruments how to use their part to anticipate harmonic and cadential structures before playing them. And so on. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dhbailey Sent: 25 May 2007 10:25 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Key signature question I find it curious, and I am trying to wrack my brains (feeble though they may be) as to just when I became aware of that sort of stuff. I definitely was aware of it long before I got to college, and I don't recall ever having it explained to me. I just was observant of the printed music, more observant of many who are far better at their instruments than I am at mine. I think there's a few kindred spirits on this list! My pupils now are the victims of this and of what you've describe. They don't get the choice of glossing over everything prior to the first note when they look at a new piece... My students, when I ask them to play a certain exercise or song from their lesson book, are in for a ragging if they get the key signature or the meter wrong. But I don't just say "You forgot to check the key signature." I'll say something like "I asked you to play exercise number 5." "But I am." "No, you 're not playing the exercise number 5 I asked you to play." "Yes I am." "Point to it." They do so. "Now point to the start of the exercise number 5 you're trying to play." They invariably point to the first note. "Well, you see, the exercise number 5 that I'm asking you to play starts with a clef sign. Then what do you see?" "The key signature. oops." "What comes next?" "The meter." "And THEN comes the first note. You weren't playing exercise number 5 because you were playing in the wrong key. Publishers don't pay engravers the large amounts of money that engravers got when that book was published to waste their time engraving useless symbols -- it's all important and you need to pay attention to it." They remember that pretty fast. After that, when there's a similar incident I only need to remind them to start at the beginning of the exercise. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
John Howell wrote: [snip] Or simply have a 1-credit course for all music majors, a 1-hour, once a week for a semester class on notation, including all the basic clefs, Depends on what you include in "basic," all nine or just the usual four? [snip] I was thinking of all nine, including the proper use of the 8 to denote octave higher or lower than indicated. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
At 5:25 AM -0400 5/25/07, dhbailey wrote: It always amazes me that people who have obviously performed a lot of music and have spent enough hours at it above the average, enough to be able to pass an audition to get into college music departments, and who care enough to want to pursue further study of music are completely unaware of the finer points of the music they have spent so many hours staring at. Things like the fact that time signatures aren't at the start of each staff on the page, but clef signs are, or the sequence in which sharps and flats are placed in the key signature. Or the fact that key signatures ARE required on every line. Seems like most of the old timers who copied Broadway show books missed that day in theory class, with the result that the key signature might change 4 times on a given page but there's nothing at the beginning of the lines to remind you where you are. Which means we have to write them in, despite the stern warnings not to fold, spindle or mutilate! I find it curious, and I am trying to wrack my brains (feeble though they may be) as to just when I became aware of that sort of stuff. I definitely was aware of it long before I got to college, and I don't recall ever having it explained to me. I just was observant of the printed music, more observant of many who are far better at their instruments than I am at mine. Yeah, I never studied it, either. I just learned it along the way. (Along with my mom getting after me when I didn't spell the chords properly, but tried to make the individual parts easier to read!) I definitely think a "Notation and How To Get It On Paper Properly" module for any/every music theory, harmony, arranging, composing course should be mandatory. Susie was a composition major at Indiana, and they did have to take a notation class (long before computers!!), but the average music major didn't. Or simply have a 1-credit course for all music majors, a 1-hour, once a week for a semester class on notation, including all the basic clefs, Depends on what you include in "basic," all nine or just the usual four? and all done *by hand* without computers, so that people end up with at least legible manuscript which follows what are the accepted conventions of notation, Yes and no. I think it's also important that they learn to get the most out of their notation programs, as well. I split the difference, asking for drafts in manuscript but final versions engraved. But I do warn them that when they have a deadline and the electricity goes off, they still have that deadline!! John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Key signature question
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dhbailey > Sent: 25 May 2007 10:25 > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: Re: [Finale] Key signature question > > I find it curious, and I am trying to wrack my brains (feeble though > they may be) as to just when I became aware of that sort of stuff. I > definitely was aware of it long before I got to college, and I don't > recall ever having it explained to me. I just was observant of the > printed music, more observant of many who are far better at their > instruments than I am at mine. > I think there's a few kindred spirits on this list! My pupils now are the victims of this and of what you've describe. They don't get the choice of glossing over everything prior to the first note when they look at a new piece... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Key signature question
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dhbailey > Sent: 24 May 2007 23:52 > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: Re: [Finale] Key signature question > > > John Roberts wrote: > > Pardon my ignorance, but can I legally change the key > signature in the > > middle of a measure? And in modern practice, do I still > need a double > > barline with a change of key signature? If not, and if the > answer to > > my first question is "yes," how would I accomplish that in Finale? > > (Hidden barlines and lots of futzing with the measure number tool?) > > > > > Legally? Certainly -- there aren't any notation cops who'll come > knocking in the middle of the night and hit you up-side the > head with a > lead anacrusis or anything. > > Is it advisable? Depends on who the musicians are who'll be > reading the > music. They'll let you know in no uncertain terms if they > don't like it. Yep. I gave Mussorgsky a piece of my mind the other week. ;) In other words, there's a good example of bad practice in the Khovanshchina prelude. A change occurs halfway through a bar, I think from 6 sharps to 6 flats. Not only does it make it look like two separate bars, with the guarantee that a first play-through will fall apart there, the violins also play a C sharp on the first beat and leap to a top D flat after the key change. Every part I've seen whenever I've played it has "C SHARP" scrawled over that second note. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
John Howell wrote: At 8:22 PM -0400 5/24/07, Darcy James Argue wrote: Personally, I think that's terrible practice. There is a key change before a quarter-note pickup? Use an accidental, fercrissakes, and change the key sig at the beginning of the next bar. I would certainly agree (not necessarily in precisely the same words!). Do remember that you are supposed to be the notation expert, and are expected to advise on best practices no matter what your client hands you. And these picky details are something I find I have to correct in many student arrangements, simply because nobody has ever told them how to lay out pages for the easiest reading, and they haven't picked it up on their own. It always amazes me that people who have obviously performed a lot of music and have spent enough hours at it above the average, enough to be able to pass an audition to get into college music departments, and who care enough to want to pursue further study of music are completely unaware of the finer points of the music they have spent so many hours staring at. Things like the fact that time signatures aren't at the start of each staff on the page, but clef signs are, or the sequence in which sharps and flats are placed in the key signature. I find it curious, and I am trying to wrack my brains (feeble though they may be) as to just when I became aware of that sort of stuff. I definitely was aware of it long before I got to college, and I don't recall ever having it explained to me. I just was observant of the printed music, more observant of many who are far better at their instruments than I am at mine. I definitely think a "Notation and How To Get It On Paper Properly" module for any/every music theory, harmony, arranging, composing course should be mandatory. Or simply have a 1-credit course for all music majors, a 1-hour, once a week for a semester class on notation, including all the basic clefs, and all done *by hand* without computers, so that people end up with at least legible manuscript which follows what are the accepted conventions of notation, and can use their brains to ensure that their notation software is doing things properly and if not, they can change it (one would hope.) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
At 8:22 PM -0400 5/24/07, Darcy James Argue wrote: Personally, I think that's terrible practice. There is a key change before a quarter-note pickup? Use an accidental, fercrissakes, and change the key sig at the beginning of the next bar. I would certainly agree (not necessarily in precisely the same words!). Do remember that you are supposed to be the notation expert, and are expected to advise on best practices no matter what your client hands you. And these picky details are something I find I have to correct in many student arrangements, simply because nobody has ever told them how to lay out pages for the easiest reading, and they haven't picked it up on their own. In fact, now that I think about it I think I'll add a module to the introduction of my Choral Arranging class that goes over exactly this kind of thing. My own habits were set long ago, but I want to make sure my students understand the necessity of making something LOOK like it SOUNDS! John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
My feelings exactly, Darcy. And what I'm planning on doing (probably without double barlines :-). Thanks for all the replies. John On 5/24/07 8:22 PM, "Darcy James Argue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Personally, I think that's terrible practice. There is a key change > before a quarter-note pickup? Use an accidental, fercrissakes, and > change the key sig at the beginning of the next bar. > > Cheers, > > - Darcy > - > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Brooklyn, NY > > > > On 24 May 2007, at 7:50 PM, John Roberts wrote: > >> Thanks for the reply. As to the why, that's the way it is in the >> guitar >> manuscript I'm typesetting, no double barlines, and several >> successive key >> changes for 4-bar phrases, with the key change before a quarter- >> note length >> pickup. >> >> John >> >> >> >> On 5/24/07 6:52 PM, "dhbailey" >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> John Roberts wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but can I legally change the key signature in the middle of a measure? And in modern practice, do I still need a double barline with a change of key signature? If not, and if the answer to my first question is "yes," how would I accomplish that in Finale? (Hidden barlines and lots of futzing with the measure number tool?) >>> >>> >>> Legally? Certainly -- there aren't any notation cops who'll come >>> knocking in the middle of the night and hit you up-side the head >>> with a >>> lead anacrusis or anything. >>> >>> Is it advisable? Depends on who the musicians are who'll be >>> reading the >>> music. They'll let you know in no uncertain terms if they don't >>> like it. >>> >>> My first question is "Why?" If there's any way to avoid it, my >>> advice >>> would be to do so. >>> >>> Finale will only allow you to change key at the start of the >>> measure, so >>> you're right you have to futz around with making that measure with >>> the >>> mid-measure key change into 2 measures and making the barline of the >>> first of the two resulting measures hidden. >>> >>> In Fin2007, you can set the measure attribute for the second >>> measure so >>> that it isn't calculated in the measure numbers. In earlier versions >>> you have to monkey around with defining additional regions to >>> handle the >>> measure number hassles that result from such division of current >>> measures. >>> >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
On May 24, 2007, at 5:31 PM, John Roberts wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but can I legally change the key signature in the middle of a measure? For the past 50 years, you can do absolutely anything you like with notation. Whether a given notation is advisable is another matter. And in modern practice, do I still need a double barline with a change of key signature? No. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
Personally, I think that's terrible practice. There is a key change before a quarter-note pickup? Use an accidental, fercrissakes, and change the key sig at the beginning of the next bar. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 24 May 2007, at 7:50 PM, John Roberts wrote: Thanks for the reply. As to the why, that's the way it is in the guitar manuscript I'm typesetting, no double barlines, and several successive key changes for 4-bar phrases, with the key change before a quarter- note length pickup. John On 5/24/07 6:52 PM, "dhbailey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: John Roberts wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but can I legally change the key signature in the middle of a measure? And in modern practice, do I still need a double barline with a change of key signature? If not, and if the answer to my first question is "yes," how would I accomplish that in Finale? (Hidden barlines and lots of futzing with the measure number tool?) Legally? Certainly -- there aren't any notation cops who'll come knocking in the middle of the night and hit you up-side the head with a lead anacrusis or anything. Is it advisable? Depends on who the musicians are who'll be reading the music. They'll let you know in no uncertain terms if they don't like it. My first question is "Why?" If there's any way to avoid it, my advice would be to do so. Finale will only allow you to change key at the start of the measure, so you're right you have to futz around with making that measure with the mid-measure key change into 2 measures and making the barline of the first of the two resulting measures hidden. In Fin2007, you can set the measure attribute for the second measure so that it isn't calculated in the measure numbers. In earlier versions you have to monkey around with defining additional regions to handle the measure number hassles that result from such division of current measures. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
At 06:52 PM 5/24/2007, dhbailey wrote: >Finale will only allow you to change key at the start of the measure, so >you're right you have to futz around with making that measure with the >mid-measure key change into 2 measures and making the barline of the >first of the two resulting measures hidden. I would say it should be a dashed barline rather than hidden. That's how I'm used to seeing it. Otherwise, the new key sig will just look like a bunch of accidentals, not a key sig. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
Thanks for the reply. As to the why, that's the way it is in the guitar manuscript I'm typesetting, no double barlines, and several successive key changes for 4-bar phrases, with the key change before a quarter-note length pickup. John On 5/24/07 6:52 PM, "dhbailey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > John Roberts wrote: >> Pardon my ignorance, but can I legally change the key signature in the >> middle of a measure? And in modern practice, do I still need a double >> barline with a change of key signature? If not, and if the answer to my >> first question is "yes," how would I accomplish that in Finale? (Hidden >> barlines and lots of futzing with the measure number tool?) >> > > > Legally? Certainly -- there aren't any notation cops who'll come > knocking in the middle of the night and hit you up-side the head with a > lead anacrusis or anything. > > Is it advisable? Depends on who the musicians are who'll be reading the > music. They'll let you know in no uncertain terms if they don't like it. > > My first question is "Why?" If there's any way to avoid it, my advice > would be to do so. > > Finale will only allow you to change key at the start of the measure, so > you're right you have to futz around with making that measure with the > mid-measure key change into 2 measures and making the barline of the > first of the two resulting measures hidden. > > In Fin2007, you can set the measure attribute for the second measure so > that it isn't calculated in the measure numbers. In earlier versions > you have to monkey around with defining additional regions to handle the > measure number hassles that result from such division of current measures. > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
John Roberts wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but can I legally change the key signature in the middle of a measure? And in modern practice, do I still need a double barline with a change of key signature? If not, and if the answer to my first question is "yes," how would I accomplish that in Finale? (Hidden barlines and lots of futzing with the measure number tool?) Legally? Certainly -- there aren't any notation cops who'll come knocking in the middle of the night and hit you up-side the head with a lead anacrusis or anything. Is it advisable? Depends on who the musicians are who'll be reading the music. They'll let you know in no uncertain terms if they don't like it. My first question is "Why?" If there's any way to avoid it, my advice would be to do so. Finale will only allow you to change key at the start of the measure, so you're right you have to futz around with making that measure with the mid-measure key change into 2 measures and making the barline of the first of the two resulting measures hidden. In Fin2007, you can set the measure attribute for the second measure so that it isn't calculated in the measure numbers. In earlier versions you have to monkey around with defining additional regions to handle the measure number hassles that result from such division of current measures. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Key signature question
Pardon my ignorance, but can I legally change the key signature in the middle of a measure? And in modern practice, do I still need a double barline with a change of key signature? If not, and if the answer to my first question is "yes," how would I accomplish that in Finale? (Hidden barlines and lots of futzing with the measure number tool?) Thanks, John Roberts ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
Agreeing with Owain, I'm going to have to say that it looks like a development section, where the tonal centre isn't going to be around long enough to warrant a modulation. Schoenberg has *ideas* about that sort of thing. But, without any knowledge of the context, I'm going to go with, "it looks like mostly pedal point passages used to refer to previous melodic ideas, and to establish modulatory centres before *arriving* at a place where a new key signature might actually be useful. On 12.11.2004 14:19 Uhr, "Richard Yates" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Aside from deliberately trying to make things difficult for note entry and > sight-reading, why would anyone notate the following passage this way: > > http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek1.jpg > > instead of this way: > > http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek2.jpg ? > > (The whole piece is only three pages and stays in the same harmonic > neighborhood throughout.) > > [from Leos Janacek, 'Po zarostlem chodnicku'] > > Richard Yates > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
Richard Yates wrote: Aside from deliberately trying to make things difficult for note entry and sight-reading, why would anyone notate the following passage this way: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek1.jpg instead of this way: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek2.jpg ? (The whole piece is only three pages and stays in the same harmonic neighborhood throughout.) [from Leos Janacek, 'Po zarostlem chodnicku'] Richard Yates Two explanations. Firstly, they missed the point of clarity in musical notation. However, there's a potential alternative, that there is a harmonic relation to other movements / pieces / etc. A knowledge of the piece might make me irrelevant... ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Key signature question
On Nov 12, 2004, at 5:19 PM, Richard Yates wrote: Aside from deliberately trying to make things difficult for note entry and sight-reading, why would anyone notate the following passage this way: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek1.jpg instead of this way: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek2.jpg ? (The whole piece is only three pages and stays in the same harmonic neighborhood throughout.) [from Leos Janacek, 'Po zarostlem chodnicku'] Richard Yates You've got me. I would put the whole thing in Db, in fact, assuming there is no compelling reason to keep it in C# (like keeping the modulation sequence understandable if there are frequent modulations.) This is the kind of thing I always have problems understanding, and I'm considered a little way-out at times in my circles (in terms of rarely-seen notation and effects.) Anyone else care to clue us in? I don't get it. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Key signature question
Aside from deliberately trying to make things difficult for note entry and sight-reading, why would anyone notate the following passage this way: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek1.jpg instead of this way: http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Janacek2.jpg ? (The whole piece is only three pages and stays in the same harmonic neighborhood throughout.) [from Leos Janacek, 'Po zarostlem chodnicku'] Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
