Re: [Fink-devel] Fink CD
At 3:39 PM +0200 2002/04/10, Max Horn wrote: First off, I'd like to keep the discussion regarding a Fink CD completly free of mentioning OpenOSX. I don't feel such a CD should be made to spite anybody, but if at all for it's own good. Anyway, here are some quick thought of mine on this: 1) It will be very helpful to anybody with a not so fast connection; to people that want to use an install CD to quickly install this stuff on my machines; for people that want to have a local Fink server, so to say, where machines behind a restrictive firewall can download stuff; etc. I definitly see a use in it. 2) There is a lot of stuff in Fink. I guess we'll have to make at least two CDs, one full with source, one with binaries. Ideally, both would contain a mini Fink installer that allows you to bootstrap Fink; the binary CD(s) should be usable on any Fink system, i.e. you plug the CD in, and Fink can get packges from it; and the source CD(s) likewise, i.e. it should be possible to get sources from it transparently. Max, I like the idea of making it easy to produce a local fink repository, separate from the installer and marketing issue. Perhaps we should start with making it easy for an admin to build a local repo, for network and/or CD installs. Should we start by suggesting fink fetch-all, and does anyone feel like writing fink build-all, for all known packages (or those already fetched, so users have somewhat finer control)? Can we generalize simplify the process you use for the binary distro, both to make the next version easier on you, and to make it easier for others to roll their own? It seems if we made it easier for users with a fast connection (including ourselves) to get complete and current sets of .info/.patch files, source tarballs, and .debs, we'd make it easier for others to build (and customize, if desired) their own fink distributions, either by putting them on a local file server, or burning their own CDs. This is useful even without a GUI, GUI installer, and logo. Then some fool^H^H^H^Hfine volunteer can build .iso images with the source binary installers, and we have the essential tools for CLI users. This paves the way for a GUI installer, should we decide to go down that road. If and when we get near that milestone, we can decide whether we're ready to charge for anything (or, indeed, anyone can decide they want to sell fink, without a consensus, hopefully with proper credit). FWIW, I use Yellow Dog Linux, and agree there's an obvious similarity between our source and theirs, but my experiences with them and their idea of customer service have been very depressing. More interesting to me would be Daemon News, a BSD shop that already sells Darwin GNU-Linux CDs http://www.daemonnewsmall.com/darwin141.html, http://www.linuxiso.org/, which someone mentioned, has FreeBSD NetBSD. Chris Pepper 3) Yeah, having a logo would be nice for a CD, and for other stuff, too, but I don't see it as a strict requirement... OK, Justin? 8-) 4) Face it, it's not that trivial to make one, at least if you are not willing to do a sloppy job. Sure, anybody can quickly make an ISO. But for this, we'll want to test it well, and make sure it really works out of the box. Also, it would be nice to provide as much convenience as possible (see 2). In the IT business, you quickly learn that Quality Assurance can easily eat as much time as programming/design of the application :-) 5) To sell or not to sell - I say we should first worry about getting ISOs. Then people can use them or not. Next is we can research whether it's possible to make them available to users somehow. I am certainly *not* willing to take personal financial risks for this, though. -- Chris Pepper: http://www.reppep.com/~pepper/ Rockefeller University: http://www.rockefeller.edu/ ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Fink CD
?? What about another commands for fink - 'make-image path' for making ISO image(s) of the given distribution - 'update-from path' for installing stuff from CD Is that a bad idea? I'm speaking for the lazy ones. ?? On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 08:44 AM, David R. Morrison wrote: If I were making a fink CD, here is what I would do: Make a package which uses the Apple installer to install a bunch of .deb files into /sw/fink/debs and a bunch of source files into /sw/src, after fink has been installed. The advantage is that you don't have to have a high-bandwidth internet connection to get everything this way. There have been requests on fink-users and fink-beginners for such a thing, from time to time. (Sure, there are other possible solutions like implementing advanced Debian tools that can pull stuff off CDs, but my solution is a simple one for someone who has more spare disk space than bandwidth.) Having such a CD available would not exactly make OpenOSX.org irrelevant, but it might encourage them to concentrate on the added value which they purport to provide, namely, providing installation and usage help to their customers. That, after all, is Red Hat's business model. -- Dave ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Fink CD
First off, I'd like to keep the discussion regarding a Fink CD completly free of mentioning OpenOSX. I don't feel such a CD should be made to spite anybody, but if at all for it's own good. Anyway, here are some quick thought of mine on this: 1) It will be very helpful to anybody with a not so fast connection; to people that want to use an install CD to quickly install this stuff on my machines; for people that want to have a local Fink server, so to say, where machines behind a restrictive firewall can download stuff; etc. I definitly see a use in it. 2) There is a lot of stuff in Fink. I guess we'll have to make at least two CDs, one full with source, one with binaries. Ideally, both would contain a mini Fink installer that allows you to bootstrap Fink; the binary CD(s) should be usable on any Fink system, i.e. you plug the CD in, and Fink can get packges from it; and the source CD(s) likewise, i.e. it should be possible to get sources from it transparently. 3) Yeah, having a logo would be nice for a CD, and for other stuff, too, but I don't see it as a strict requirement... OK, Justin? 8-) 4) Face it, it's not that trivial to make one, at least if you are not willing to do a sloppy job. Sure, anybody can quickly make an ISO. But for this, we'll want to test it well, and make sure it really works out of the box. Also, it would be nice to provide as much convenience as possible (see 2). In the IT business, you quickly learn that Quality Assurance can easily eat as much time as programming/design of the application :-) 5) To sell or not to sell - I say we should first worry about getting ISOs. Then people can use them or not. Next is we can research whether it's possible to make them available to users somehow. I am certainly *not* willing to take personal financial risks for this, though. Max -- --- Max Horn Software Developer email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: (+49) 6151-494890 ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Fink CD
Am Mittwoch den, 10. April 2002, um 06:39, schrieb Max Horn: 3) Yeah, having a logo would be nice for a CD, and for other stuff, too, but I don't see it as a strict requirement... OK, Justin? 8-) In the 60's here in the US we had a 'Rat Fink' icon... but anyway... 4) Face it, it's not that trivial to make one, at least if you are not willing to do a sloppy job. Sure, anybody can quickly make an ISO. But for this, we'll want to test it well, and make sure it really works out of the box. Also, it would be nice to provide as much convenience as possible (see 2). In the IT business, you quickly learn that Quality Assurance can easily eat as much time as programming/design of the application :-) What about seeing if the FreeBSD or NetBSD CD suppliers are interested in making a Fink CD, since, Mac OSX and Darwin are heavily based on those OS's in the kernel and 'shell tool sets'. 5) To sell or not to sell - I say we should first worry about getting ISOs. Then people can use them or not. Next is we can research whether it's possible to make them available to users somehow. I am certainly *not* willing to take personal financial risks for this, though. I'm pretty cynical about ever making any money of off 'free software'. I'll also point out that those entities that I'm aware of that play fast and loose with the GPL seem to make more if they hold off or don't deliver the source most of the time. ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Fink CD
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know that it seems like implementing the function dwim(x) where x is an expression and meaning of the function is Do What I Mean by x. No need to do this in C when Fink is already written in Perl, right? Of course not -- not when we have Damien Conway's Acme::DWIM at hand: http://search.cpan.org/doc/DCONWAY/Acme-Bleach-1.12/lib/Acme/DWIM.pm :) :) :) -- Chris Devers[EMAIL PROTECTED] Apache / mod_perl / http://homepage.mac.com/chdevers/resume/ More war soon. You know how it is.-- mnftiu.cc ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Fink CD
but you;'d be using disk space that doesn't need to be so. at least not for the bin dist since apt can get from cd. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Make a package which uses the Apple installer to install a bunch of .deb files into /sw/fink/debs and a bunch of source files into /sw/src, after fink has been installed. ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·., Justin F. Hallett - Systems Analyst Phone: (780)-408-3094 Fax: (780)-454-3200 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] .·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·., ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Fink CD
agreed :P [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 3) Yeah, having a logo would be nice for a CD, and for other stuff, too, but I don't see it as a strict requirement... OK, Justin? 8-) ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·., Justin F. Hallett - Systems Analyst Phone: (780)-408-3094 Fax: (780)-454-3200 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] .·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·., ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Fink CD
You are certainly not the first to have noticed that fink's documentation is inadequate. Each time it comes up, the core fink developers seek volunteers from the fink community to work on this. Perhaps people who don't have porting skills but would like to help out. So far, nobody is beating down our doors. -- Dave ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Fink CD
There is a Help Wanted section on SourceForge. We can try that. David R. Morrison wrote: So far, nobody is beating down our doors. -- Dave ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Fink CD
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, David R. Morrison wrote: You are certainly not the first to have noticed that fink's documentation is inadequate. Each time it comes up, the core fink developers seek volunteers from the fink community to work on this. Perhaps people who don't have porting skills but would like to help out. I was one of those people that expressed an interest in helping out with documentation, and I'm still interested in doing that but, ironically, the site documentation didn't make it clear how to sign up in the first place. It's entirely possible that I just didn't look hard enough, but still... I take it I first need a Sourceforge account, and that IE can't be used to do this? I'll go sign up for one with Mozilla... -- Chris Devers[EMAIL PROTECTED] Apache / mod_perl / http://homepage.mac.com/chdevers/resume/ More war soon. You know how it is.-- mnftiu.cc ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Fink CD
IE is fine. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I take it I first need a Sourceforge account, and that IE can't be used to do this? I'll go sign up for one with Mozilla... ¸.·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·., Justin F. Hallett - Systems Analyst Phone: (780)-408-3094 Fax: (780)-454-3200 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] .·´^`·.,][JFH][`·.,¸¸.·´][JFH][¸.·´^`·., ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Fink CD
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Thomas Peters II wrote: I guess my point is, we really need a lot more disclaimers and finger pointing texts. Something which says We didn't make the Gimp, XWindows, esound, etc. These other people made this stuff, go there for support. This is certainly implied on the web page and in other documents, but it really isn't spelt out for those who don't know the difference between authoring software and porting software. Fair enough, but on the other hand you finish that statment by bringing up my problem with this idea in the first place: to a novice user, it's not unreasonable for them to think well these people gave me this and I can't get it to work, so they ought to help me. To an extent, I'm sympathetic with that viewpoint: on one hand I don't want to be in a position where I have to explain every niggling detail of how to get X11 working, but then by providing all the components piecemail as Fink does, it does become at least partially necessary to be able to explain what the components are for and how to put them together -- and in fact this consumes a huge chunk of the traffic on the beginners list. Telling users to go look up the docs on Gnome's site isn't necessarily helpful, as most of the info over there is going to be Linux oriented and, though the relationship is obvious to us, the differences may be less so to new users, who can be so busy trying to take everything in that they haven't noticed yet where the boundaries are among major frameworks like Fink, Gnome, Xfree, all the window managers, etc. By providing one stop shopping for all that stuff, it's fair to expect us to also provide a bit of one stop documentation, even if that just means mirroring or linking to detailed, complete material from elsewhere. IMHO I don't believe Fink has done much more about educating the public about this than those two, and would quickly fall into the same category as OpenOSX and MacGimp. We say they aren't providing enough info, and yet neither are we ...touche... :) and the major difference is they are getting bad publicity because they charge money. ...do you not think that's relevant then? Is it wrong to hide behind you get what you [charge] for? Fink just isn't clearly defined to the public, and the short descriptions out there are already misleading enough to put Fink in the same undesirable class as OpenOSX. Fair enough. Publicity matters, even if it's a wretched thing. I've seen people slagging off on Fink for, among other reasons, a dislike of '/sw' as a base directory. Pointing out that this is configurable makes some of the hostility less harsh but it's still there. Anyway, as noted in the last mail, I'm willing to help out with documentation. Gotta start somewhere... :) -- Chris Devers[EMAIL PROTECTED] Apache / mod_perl / http://homepage.mac.com/chdevers/resume/ More war soon. You know how it is.-- mnftiu.cc ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
