Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[lenny bruce]

On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 12:58  PM, Gary Elshaw wrote:

XonX did all the work and yet Tenon was selling it and XonX held it 
back.
Apple broke up Tenon's little scheme by making XFree86 with HW OpenGL 
free.

Then this might be of interest: " The beta release of X11 is free of 
charge, but Apple has yet to announce pricing for the software when it 
debuts later this year."

http://news.com.com/2100-1001-981495.html

you've never heard of spin???

oh yes, a story from C-Net, the most Mac-friendly place on the net...
they always have such kind words to say about Apple
and they do such unbiased fair reporting about the Mac.

gee, what does PC-Week have to say about it?
how about our friends at LinuxWorld?


you don't seem to get it. dont'cha have any PC friends?
you know the distorted false information they have about the Mac.
the PC-press reports every event at Apple as a tragic misstep or 
failure.

C-Net is reporting that Apple might charge for it
for the same reason Apple is frightened
that being the only XFree86 platform where HW-OpenGL is payware
will drive people away


let's examine what C-Net said for a moment...

The beta release of X11 is free of charge,
but Apple has yet to announce pricing for the software
when it debuts later this year


the concept of "pricing" is C-Net's SPECULATION
solely on the basis that Apple called this release a beta test.

Apple didn't say anything related to pricing.
It's a beta test because Apple's never done anything like this before.
X11 is irrelevant to Apple's OS X strategy which uses the NeXT window 
server.

Apple just hacked the thing together and it worked...
XonX's port was miraculous because they had to feel their way like 
Helen Keller.
Apple didn't have the problems XonX had because Apple knows its own 
system.

They probably had it running already just sitting around for fun
and they gave it to us when they saw a bully in the marketplace.


lenny bruceI am not a comedian,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]I am Lenny Bruce.



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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[Roger Howard]

On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 09:28  PM, lenny bruce wrote:


We don't know how Tenon kept XonX from releasing it... that's the 
mystery.

The mystery is WHETHER Tenon did, which you have not provided an 
inkling of evidence for, just rampant paranoid speculation. Beyond 
that, even if Tenon "kept XonX from releasing it" you don't know 
whether that was an illegal act like the racketeering you claim, or a 
legitimate business arrangement. You haven't even proposed a plausible 
way in which Tenon COULD have prevented them from releasing a port of 
an open source project, and I fail to see any such possibility unless 
Tenon simply paid them off, which wouldn't be illegal.

Grow up, move on, find a real enemy if you must. This list is about 
Fink support, not unfounded tech conspiracies.

Roger



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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[lenny bruce]

On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 02:50  AM, Brendan Lane Larson wrote:

lenny, can you help me with the following:


wait, hold a sec... I don't claim all that you say.
I really don't think you understand what I said.

It's XFree86, not Mac OS X, that we're discussing.
XFree86 is a X Window Server that runs on many platforms.


1.) How did Tenon acquire this blackmail option over the Macintosh 
(Mac OS X specifically, not Mac OS 9?) implementation of Hardware 
OpenGL for Xfree86 in the first place?

2.) When did Tenon acquire this blackmail option on Hardware OpenGL?

nobody said "blackmail"
the word is "racketeering"



XonX ported XFree86 so it would compile in Darwin (Mac OS X's 
underlying layer)

but "port" is kind of the wrong word...

they didn't need to provide a missing infrastructure
the way one might use GUSI and Cygwin to do
to get UNIX programs to run on Mac OS 9 and Windoze
http://www.cygwin.com/ - 
http://www.iis.ee.ethz.ch/~neeri/macintosh/gusi-qa.html

Darwin is real (Univ of Calif) BSD UNIX
running on the (Carnagie Mellon) Mach kernel

basically XonX had to adjust for some goofiness we have with shared 
libraries
and this is the necessary component that enables HW OpenGL support.
XonX also came up with the idea for the XDarwin launcher for Aqua.

XonX didn't exactly invent the wheel here...
it was mainly about realizing it could be compiled easily on Mac OS X.



Like a lot of people recently...
it occurred to me that I could run ms-windoze programs more quickly
using WINE by running a minimal UNIX-X11 combo on Virtual PC
and then forwarding the X Windows to my Mac OS X's X11... avoiding MS 
Windoze.
It doesn't mean I'm a genius... it was just something that could be 
done.
It was a drag to do but I did it... XonX's effort was a lot like that.


3.) What part of XFree86 and/or X (X11R6.4?), among the numerous many 
components and pieces that comprise Xfree86 and X, is the *specific* 
component(s) that provides Hardware OpenGL capability, when compiled 
for the Macintosh (Mac OS X)?

GLX... but it's part of the XFree86 package.

The key is the link between GLX and the host platform's OpenGL 
libraries.

HW OpenGL support in XFree86 relies on two things:
* a shared or static link
* HW OpenGL libraries in the first place.

XonX wrote original code that enabled shared library support in XFree86.
Apple wrote the OpenGL libraries that connected to ATI and NVIDIA 
hardware.
Only on Mac OS X was this link payware... and herein lies the mystery.



Compiling XFree86 on Darwin was difficult for XonX because they're just 
people.
Apple has unique knowledge because they own NeXT and make Mac OS X.

Apple was helping XonX in their efforts to get XFree86 running on Darwin
but clearly they were have a difficult time getting a straight answer
about why Tenon was selling XonX's HW code while XonX released SW-Only 
OpenGl
when the link relied on Apple's OpenGL code in the first place...

Apple was only involved in helping XonX as a nicety in the first place
trying to score points in open-source work that wasn't related to Mac 
OS X...

but when this mystery about denying free HW OpenGL support while Tenon 
sold it
started to drive away big customers because it was free on every other 
platform
Apple simply said "screw you" to whatever the mystery was with Tenon 
and XonX.
They compiled XFree86 for themselves and released it... PROBLEM SOLVED.



Some try to defend XonX by saying that their HW-OpenGL-enabled XFree86
was available on the CVS server... but that blocks the majority of the 
market
and it wasn't exactly common knowledge until I began bitching about it.
Most people use Fink/FinkCommander as compiling stuff manually is 
beyond them.
The reality of the releases available to the common people was 
SW-OpenGL-only.

Plus, if it was free... why weren't the other packagers of XFree86 on 
Mac OS X
allowed to include the HW OpenGL version on their shareware CDs???


4.) How did Apple deprecate Tenon's blackmail option? Did a patent 
owned by Tenon finally expire? Did Apple license a patent or license 
software from Tenon? If so, at what cost? I'm an Apple shareholder and 
would like to know.

forget the word patent...
XFree86's license is open and free

The mystery was why only Tenon had HW OpenGL support
and XonX wasn't releasing it too... especially as XonX did all the work.

We don't know how Tenon kept XonX from releasing it... that's the 
mystery.


Blocking others from releasing something
so you can be the only source
is called RACKETEERING.

Sometimes the government controls special licenses
so that they can conduct alcohol sales (State Liquor Stores, for 
example)
or for others that they deem legally entitled to control a market.


Tenon didn't have any right to be blocking others
yet they were doing it anyway... that's why it's CRIMINAL RACKETEERING.

Microsoft did it to DRI (the original authors of DOS)
when they closed out DR-DOS to make sure MS-DOS was the only source.

Standard Oil did it to

Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[Kevin van Haaren]

On Thursday, Jan 23, 2003, at 14:58 US/Central, Gary Elshaw wrote:




XonX did all the work and yet Tenon was selling it and XonX held it
back.
Apple broke up Tenon's little scheme by making XFree86 with HW OpenGL
free.


Then this might be of interest: " The beta release of X11 is free of 
charge, but Apple has yet to announce pricing for the software when it 
debuts later this year."

http://news.com.com/2100-1001-981495.html

that's sounds like a boilerplate announcement for beta software from a 
news company that doesn't understand open source.

Apple has the product in their open source pages and states "As part of 
Apple's ongoing commitment to Open Source, we are pleased to provide 
the complete source code to the X11 server distributed with the X11 for 
Mac OS X Public Preview."  I can tell you what the price will be



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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[Gary Elshaw]

XonX did all the work and yet Tenon was selling it and XonX held it
back.
Apple broke up Tenon's little scheme by making XFree86 with HW OpenGL
free.


Then this might be of interest: " The beta release of X11 is free of 
charge, but Apple has yet to announce pricing for the software when it 
debuts later this year."

http://news.com.com/2100-1001-981495.html

Cheers,
Gary
__

"...The atlas-eater with a jaw for news
bit out the mandrake with tomorrow's scream.."

'Altarwise by Owl-light'
Dylan Thomas

Gary Elshaw
Film and Media Tutor
Victoria University
New Zealand
http://elshaw.tripod.com/
__



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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[Zachery Bir]

I have the suspicion that my leg is being pulled...

On Thursday, Jan 23, 2003, at 05:50 US/Eastern, Brendan Lane Larson 
wrote:

Thank you for further elaborating, lenny. I believe this is a relevant 
topic that should not be dismissed. Please help me to understand the 
explicit differences between Xfree86 (that I am still currently 
running via Fink installation with XDarwin) and Apple's X11. I never 
want to get myself into a situation where the software I'm using is 
proprietary.

And you're using OS X why?


I can tell that you're happy about Apple's release of X11 and Tenon 
losing its grip, but I am afraid to download Apple's X11 and install 
it ... fearful that I might get hooked into something proprietary.

Like, say, the rest of OS X?

Zac



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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[Joe Block]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


On Wednesday, Jan 22, 2003, at 15:03 US/Eastern, lenny bruce wrote:


On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 09:32 AM, Andrew Hartung wrote:

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 06:27 AM, lenny bruce wrote:


X11 on Mac OS X began as a hobby-like interest in the possibilities 
of OS X
that Tenon illegally hijacked with criminal racketeering so they 
could profit.

this guy really needs to get a dictionary.


it was a scheme, classic criminal racketeering...

 * make sure you're the only one selling it
 * block anybody else from giving it away

XonX did all the work and yet Tenon was selling it and XonX held it 
back.
Apple broke up Tenon's little scheme by making XFree86 with HW OpenGL 
free.
Apple was just too big to be intimidated the way Tenon did with XonX.

Fine.  Show exactly how they kept XonX from distributing whatever they 
wanted, or shut up about it.  It is completely off-topic here.

jpb
- -- Joe Block <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

The goal of Computer Science is to build something that will last at 
least until we've finished building it.
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=UhGq
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


--
Joe Block <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Alpha Geek
s i l e n t ) p l a n e t
voice: (407) 673-2250 fax: (407) 673-2260
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Winter Park, FL 32789



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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[Kevin van Haaren]

On Thursday, Jan 23, 2003, at 04:50 US/Central, Brendan Lane Larson 
wrote:


Furthermore to my worry about any part of X11 released by Apple under 
APSL (or some other restrictive license), there has been some 
controversy recently about the APSL, in addition to the DMCA.  See 
that proclus of GNU-Darwin is dropping PPC support of GNU-Darwin:

[snip]

Thus, in line with what proclus has said about his policy in the 
context of the APSL needing a "revision", and thus no longer 
supporting or distributing any software which links to proprietary 
libraries, I'd like to know just what the heck is going on here with 
Apple's X11 and what Tenon's legacy is regarding the Hardware GL for 
Xfree86.

If you want to know the specific problems GNU has with the APSL they 
are listed here:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/apsl.html

Besides, I don't think Apple put it's X11 under the APSL (I'm not sure 
they can re-license X11 like that).  I downloaded the source 
(), there was no 
click thru to accept the APSL and I can't find any mention of the APSL 
in the files.  The license list in the file 
xc-0.11/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/doc/LICENSE does not list the APSL 
(not sure if Apple would be required to do so, although I assume they 
would as everyone else seems to have put theirs in the file.  SGI's is 
rather long and obtuse.)

Kevin



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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[Max Horn]

At 1:19 Uhr -1000 23.01.2003, Brendan Lane Larson wrote:

Max,

I agree that people need to back up their statements.

I disagree that this topic is moot on the Fink list.


In the form it was discussed, yes it was and is inappropriate. I will 
not tolarate people behaving in this way on the list (that is, 
accusing others, be it persons or companies, repeatedly for having 
commited crimes, and then having no proofs, which is a crime itself, 
at least in Germany and the US).


In the spirit of the Open Source Community that Fink is founded on:

http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/general.php#what



[...]

Brendan, you, should first get your facts straight before jumping to 
conclusion or before believing what lenny or others tell you.

Apple's adoption of XFree86 is available in source. The Apple license 
(ASPL) is recognized as a true open source license by the OSI 
(http://opensource.org/). The GNU folks may view that differently, 
but then they view mostly anything which is not GPL as heretic 
.

In fact, go to http://developer.apple.com/darwin/. You can get the 
complete source for it their, *and* Apple states that they work with 
the XonX team (the people that ported XFree86 to OS X) to integrate 
their changes into XFree86. I don't know how they could be more open 
source friendly (in realistic terms).


Fink offers you to choose between compiling XFree86+XDarwin.app 
yourself, installing a prebuilt binary of XFRee86 +XDarwin.app. In 
the past we offered the ability to install Tenon's X11 (and if they 
release it for 10.2, if possible we will allow this again). And 
nowadays we allow you to use Apple's XFree86+X11.app if you have it 
installed  (mind you, we don't allow you to install Apple's X11, but 
if you have it installed, we allow you to hook it into Fink).



Max


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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[Brendan Lane Larson]

Max,

I agree that people need to back up their statements. 

I disagree that this topic is moot on the Fink list.

In the spirit of the Open Source Community that Fink is founded on:

http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/general.php#what

Q1.1: What is Fink?

A: Fink wants to bring more Unix software to Mac OS X, which results in two main goals:

Goal number one is porting software to Mac OS X. That means we take commodity Open Source Unix software and fix whatever is necessary so that it will compile and run on Mac OS X. Sometimes that's easy, but it can also be very hard or even impossible for some packages. We're trying to provide tools and documentation to make this easier.

Goal number two is making the results available to casual users. For this, we build a distribution using package management tools ported over from Linux, namely dpkg and apt-get, written by and for the Debian GNU/Linux project. The binary distribution uses the .deb package format. For building packages from source, we have our own tool, named fink, which creates those .deb package files.

Most casual users do not understand the intricate specific differences between 1.) XFree86 with XDarwin "ported" to Mac OS X (which ports are packaged in packages that are released and maintained by Fink Maintainers on behalf of the casual (or not so casual user), and 2.) what Apple has released in the form of X11 which Fink has already adopted to a certain extent by offering documentation on its site: http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/x11/inst-xfree86.php#apple-binary

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but does not Fink's "adoption" and "integration" of Apple's X11 into the Fink system *break* with Fink's tradition and *goals*: (1.) commodity Open Source Unix software, (2.) building the Fink distribution from package management tools ported over from Linux, namely dpgk and apt-get?

Why would Fink integrate something that is proprietary from Apple into what has, until now, been a non-proprietary system? But please forgive me if I'm totally misunderstanding (I read the Apple X11 license and don't see any words in the license (but I'm not a lawyer -- does Fink have any lawyers that can review the Apple X11 license?) that would 1.) allow a Fink maintainer to "fix whatever is necessary so that it will compile and run on Mac OS X" with regard to Apple's X11, and 2.) add to the Fink distribution from ... Linux (dpkg / apt-get).

What worries me the most is that XDarwin will gradually vanish in the wake of Apple's X11 which does not allow the Open Source (Fink or otherwise) community(s) to offer fixes to anything specific that Apple has done. What is the probability of this happening? Has there been any discussion about this with the kind XDarwin folks? Would it not be quite feasible for the casual users who have come to know and love (and rely on) the Open Source communities at large, to easily get swept up in the Apple X11 proprietary application and get sucked into Apple's X11, thinking that its also "Open Source" (I.e., "It must be because everyone's using it -- look, even the Fink Web pages talk about it and how Apple's X11 can integrate into Fink distributions").

Again, I am not a lawyer, but would it not perhaps be a good idea to have the Free Software Foundation (or EFF) at least take a look at this situation so that we know exactly what we're dealing with here? Who knows, perhaps in the process we'll also understand that it is that Tenon has allegedly done in the past, too.

Kind regards,

-Brendan

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 10:29  AM, Max Horn wrote:

At 12:03 Uhr -0800 22.01.2003, lenny bruce wrote:
On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 09:32 AM, Andrew Hartung wrote:
On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 06:27 AM, lenny bruce wrote:
X11 on Mac OS X began as a hobby-like interest in the possibilities of OS X
that Tenon illegally hijacked with criminal racketeering so they could profit.

this guy really needs to get a dictionary.

it was a scheme, classic criminal racketeering...

* make sure you're the only one selling it
* block anybody else from giving it away

XonX did all the work and yet Tenon was selling it and XonX held it back.
Apple broke up Tenon's little scheme by making XFree86 with HW OpenGL free.
Apple was just too big to be intimidated the way Tenon did with XonX.


Somehow people refuse to see it with computer stuff...
but it's the same crime whether it's done with oil,
the right to vote, alcohol, or any other product/service.

OK, dude, now unless you can actually give hard facts and proofs for your ramblings (and I don't see how you could do so), stop this NOW. Stop accusing people for crimes when you can't prove it - in most democratic countries, doing that is a crime in itself and you can be sued for it. Even better, stop it anyway, even in the unlikely event that you can prove your statements, because this discussion really doesn't belong on this list.




Max


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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[Brendan Lane Larson]

lenny, can you help me with the following:

1.) How did Tenon acquire this blackmail option over the Macintosh (Mac OS X specifically, not Mac OS 9?) implementation of Hardware OpenGL for Xfree86 in the first place?

2.) When did Tenon acquire this blackmail option on Hardware OpenGL?

3.) What part of XFree86 and/or X (X11R6.4?), among the numerous many components and pieces that comprise Xfree86 and X, is the *specific* component(s) that provides Hardware OpenGL capability, when compiled for the Macintosh (Mac OS X)?

4.) How did Apple deprecate Tenon's blackmail option? Did a patent owned by Tenon finally expire? Did Apple license a patent or license software from Tenon? If so, at what cost? I'm an Apple shareholder and would like to know.

5.) Under what license does Apple's release of the specific component(s) comprising Hardware OpenGL for Xfree86 on the PowerPC architecture fall? GPL? LGPL? APSL? Something else? Does not Apple's release of X11 contain proprietary code?

Thank you for further elaborating, lenny. I believe this is a relevant topic that should not be dismissed. Please help me to understand the explicit differences between Xfree86 (that I am still currently running via Fink installation with XDarwin) and Apple's X11. I never want to get myself into a situation where the software I'm using is proprietary. I can tell that you're happy about Apple's release of X11 and Tenon losing its grip, but I am afraid to download Apple's X11 and install it ... fearful that I might get hooked into something proprietary. 

Furthermore to my worry about any part of X11 released by Apple under APSL (or some other restrictive license), there has been some controversy recently about the APSL, in addition to the DMCA.  See that proclus of GNU-Darwin is dropping PPC support of GNU-Darwin:

http://www.macslash.org/article.pl?sid=02/12/18/2332242&mode=flat
Posted By: proclus
Date: 2002-12-18 11:07
Summary: FREE Darwin!

I'm getting ready to draft the yearly report, which is only a little late ;-}. The Distribution has grown and progressed significantly, and undergone many positive changes, thanks to the efforts talented developers all over the world. Unfortunately, there are a couple of things that haven't changed, and it is necessary for us to step up our stridency and activism IMHO. I'm posting these concerns here first, before the report gets written.

First, Apple continues the wall-of-silence with respect to their repugnant DMCA-based legal action, and there is no reason whatsoever for us to think that they will not undertake similar action in the future. It is regrettable that the DMCA was Apple-sponsored legislation, and it is now time for them to disavow it and promise never to employ it.

Second, APSL is languishing, and it is unacceptable to the free software community. It is now time for an APSL revision, which brings the license in line with the free software definition in accordance with the expectations of GNU Project.

In response to the inaction on these crucial items, we are taking two actions.

First, we are making explicit and binding the following policy. GNU-Darwin will not support or distribute any software which links to proprietary libraries, and that includes Cocoa, Carbon, CoreAudio, etc. There will be no native package manager from GNU-Darwin (pkg_add suffices).

Second, we will be moving our operations to x86, and we are putting the ppc collection into maintenance mode.

As always, please feel free to contact me about these issues as well as any other concern.

Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ 

Thus, in line with what proclus has said about his policy in the context of the APSL needing a "revision", and thus no longer supporting or distributing any software which links to proprietary libraries, I'd like to know just what the heck is going on here with Apple's X11 and what Tenon's legacy is regarding the Hardware GL for Xfree86.

What about the future of XDarwin???

Thank you very very much for helping me further understand this very important topic.

-Brendan

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 02:27  AM, lenny bruce wrote:

On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 09:14  AM, KaOs wrote:
I wonder if Apple will make it impossible for Fink to continue to develop
as it has by the introduction of developer tool changes. The reason I ask
this is that the EULA forbids the "patching" of add-ons to the "embedded"
Mac apps for OS X. Apple is, in other words, giving independent developers
a hard time. They support OpenDarwin, but they do not even mention Fink as
an alternative. It seems to me that there is little, if any, cooperation
of Apple to the Fink Project. The recent "upgrade" that put the Fink
project on hold for months eloquently demonstrates that.., as does the
recent choice of an inferior browser as "default".
So I would like to know what is the reality of the Fink situation in
relation to Apple.., and should I begin thinking of a complete Debian
PPC Woody "take-over" install

Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[Max Horn]

At 12:03 Uhr -0800 22.01.2003, lenny bruce wrote:

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 09:32 AM, Andrew Hartung wrote:

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 06:27 AM, lenny bruce wrote:


X11 on Mac OS X began as a hobby-like interest in the possibilities of OS X
that Tenon illegally hijacked with criminal racketeering so they 
could profit.

this guy really needs to get a dictionary.


it was a scheme, classic criminal racketeering...

 * make sure you're the only one selling it
 * block anybody else from giving it away

XonX did all the work and yet Tenon was selling it and XonX held it back.
Apple broke up Tenon's little scheme by making XFree86 with HW OpenGL free.
Apple was just too big to be intimidated the way Tenon did with XonX.


Somehow people refuse to see it with computer stuff...
but it's the same crime whether it's done with oil,
the right to vote, alcohol, or any other product/service.


OK, dude, now unless you can actually give hard facts and proofs for 
your ramblings (and I don't see how you could do so), stop this NOW. 
Stop accusing people for crimes when you can't prove it - in most 
democratic countries, doing that is a crime in itself and you can be 
sued for it. Even better, stop it anyway, even in the unlikely event 
that you can prove your statements, because this discussion really 
doesn't belong on this list.




Max


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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[Kow K]

You can call it a crime or whatever you like as far as you have 
evidence. If you're just guessing, that's a propaganding.

If you need to rely, do it off-list, please.

Kow

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 12:03 PM, lenny bruce wrote:

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 09:32 AM, Andrew Hartung wrote:

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 06:27 AM, lenny bruce wrote:


X11 on Mac OS X began as a hobby-like interest in the possibilities 
of OS X
that Tenon illegally hijacked with criminal racketeering so they 
could profit.

this guy really needs to get a dictionary.


it was a scheme, classic criminal racketeering...

 * make sure you're the only one selling it
 * block anybody else from giving it away

XonX did all the work and yet Tenon was selling it and XonX held it 
back.
Apple broke up Tenon's little scheme by making XFree86 with HW OpenGL 
free.
Apple was just too big to be intimidated the way Tenon did with XonX.


Somehow people refuse to see it with computer stuff...
but it's the same crime whether it's done with oil,
the right to vote, alcohol, or any other product/service.

lenny bruceI am not a comedian,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]I am Lenny Bruce.



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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[lenny bruce]

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 09:32 AM, Andrew Hartung wrote:

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 06:27 AM, lenny bruce wrote:


X11 on Mac OS X began as a hobby-like interest in the possibilities 
of OS X
that Tenon illegally hijacked with criminal racketeering so they 
could profit.

this guy really needs to get a dictionary.


it was a scheme, classic criminal racketeering...

 * make sure you're the only one selling it
 * block anybody else from giving it away

XonX did all the work and yet Tenon was selling it and XonX held it 
back.
Apple broke up Tenon's little scheme by making XFree86 with HW OpenGL 
free.
Apple was just too big to be intimidated the way Tenon did with XonX.


Somehow people refuse to see it with computer stuff...
but it's the same crime whether it's done with oil,
the right to vote, alcohol, or any other product/service.

lenny bruceI am not a comedian,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]I am Lenny Bruce.



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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[Andrew Hartung]

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 06:27  AM, lenny bruce wrote:


X11 on Mac OS X began as a hobby-like interest in the possibilities of 
OS X
that Tenon illegally hijacked with criminal racketeering so they could 
profit.


this guy really needs to get a dictionary.



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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[lenny bruce]

On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 09:14  AM, KaOs wrote:

I wonder if Apple will make it impossible for Fink to continue to 
develop
as it has by the introduction of developer tool changes. The reason I 
ask
this is that the EULA forbids the "patching" of add-ons to the 
"embedded"
Mac apps for OS X. Apple is, in other words, giving independent 
developers
a hard time. They support OpenDarwin, but they do not even mention 
Fink as
an alternative. It seems to me that there is little, if any, 
cooperation
of Apple to the Fink Project. The recent "upgrade" that put the Fink
project on hold for months eloquently demonstrates that.., as does the
recent choice of an inferior browser as "default".
So I would like to know what is the reality of the Fink situation in
relation to Apple.., and should I begin thinking of a complete 
Debian
PPC Woody "take-over" install on my hard drive?

Chaos is freedom!

Realize that Apple did this for the opposite reason...


X11 on Mac OS X was being crippled by a bully in the marketplace: TENON.

Your assumption about Apple's motives would be correct in most instances
but this one because Apple's motive was to destroy Tenon's illegal 
hegemony.
Apple's corporate customers were fleeing because Tenon was illegally 
preventing
the free release of XFree86 with Hardware OpenGL support on Mac OS X.

Apple's motives in releasing X11 was to stop the hemorrhaging.

Apple has no interest in X11 because they're following the NeXT 
philosophy
of using their own window server to serve their own kind of programs.
X11 is the window server every other flavor of UNIX uses to serve 
programs.

Apple hacked NeXT's window server to broaden its horizons beyond Cocoa
to serve windows for Carbon, Java, and the Classic compatibility layer.

X11 on Mac OS X began as a hobby-like interest in the possibilities of 
OS X
that Tenon illegally hijacked with criminal racketeering so they could 
profit.

Nobody knows what means Tenon used to force XonX to keep HW OpenGL from 
XFree86
but Apple invalidated the scheme by releasing it for free.

It wouldn't be a big deal if HW OpenGL support in XFree86
was payware on any other platform... but it's free everywhere else.
Now it's free on Mac OS X and Tenon can go back under a rock for all we 
care.


lenny bruceI am not a comedian,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]I am Lenny Bruce.



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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[Kow K]

You've never seen *real* paranoids ... I can tell off-list where you 
can see a real one, if you like. ;-)

Kow

On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 09:23 AM, David Bishop wrote:



Not to lump KaOs in the same boat as some other recent emailer 
*cough*, but
what is it about this list the attracts paranoid delusionals?  Just
wondering.

--
"Yousa steala precious from meesa!" - Jar-Jaromir

D.A.Bishop


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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[Justin Walker]

It's not the list.  It's Apple.  It's the same on all lists related to 
Apple/Mac.  Something about religion does it :-}.

Regards,

Justin

On Monday, Jan 20, 2003, at 09:23 US/Pacific, David Bishop wrote:



Not to lump KaOs in the same boat as some other recent emailer 
*cough*, but
what is it about this list the attracts paranoid delusionals?  Just
wondering.

--
"Yousa steala precious from meesa!" - Jar-Jaromir

D.A.Bishop


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--
/~\ The ASCII   Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon-at-Large
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Help cure HTML Email
/ \



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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[Benjamin Reed]

KaOs wrote:

I wonder if Apple will make it impossible for Fink to continue to develop
as it has by the introduction of developer tool changes. The reason I ask
this is that the EULA forbids the "patching" of add-ons to the "embedded"
Mac apps for OS X. Apple is, in other words, giving independent developers
a hard time. They support OpenDarwin, but they do not even mention Fink as
an alternative. It seems to me that there is little, if any, cooperation


I'm not sure what you're really asking.  Fink's policy is to not 
overwrite and/or patch stuff that comes with the system anyways.  The 
most we do is override it with a newer version, but it all stays in 
Fink's tree...

of Apple to the Fink Project. The recent "upgrade" that put the Fink
project on hold for months eloquently demonstrates that.., as does the
recent choice of an inferior browser as "default".


That was not an Apple-specific issue.  All of the Linux distributions 
that use GCC went through the same troubles in the move to gcc3 from 
gcc2.  It was a GCC toolchain bug, not actually "Jaguar" specific.  It 
was just easier to refer to the 10.1 or Jaguar versions of fink than to 
say "what version of GCC do you have?"

So I would like to know what is the reality of the Fink situation in
relation to Apple.., and should I begin thinking of a complete Debian
PPC Woody "take-over" install on my hard drive?


To be truthful, a number of us Fink developers work pretty closely with 
the OpenDarwin team, so they're perfectly aware what goes on in Fink, 
and vice-versa.  You have to be more specific when you say "Apple". 
Apple is a huge company, and many of its parts don't know what's going 
on in the other parts of the company.

I really don't think there's reason to be paranoid.  We don't rely on 
Apple for anything other than having a base system and developer tools. 
Going by their direction, it's not like they're going to *remove* UNIX 
features we depend on; if anything they've become more compliant with 
the other Open-Source tools as time goes on.



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Re: [Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[David Bishop]

Not to lump KaOs in the same boat as some other recent emailer *cough*, but 
what is it about this list the attracts paranoid delusionals?  Just 
wondering.

-- 
"Yousa steala precious from meesa!" - Jar-Jaromir

D.A.Bishop


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[Fink-users] Will Apple give Fink a hard time?

[KaOs]

I wonder if Apple will make it impossible for Fink to continue to develop
as it has by the introduction of developer tool changes. The reason I ask
this is that the EULA forbids the "patching" of add-ons to the "embedded"
Mac apps for OS X. Apple is, in other words, giving independent developers
a hard time. They support OpenDarwin, but they do not even mention Fink as
an alternative. It seems to me that there is little, if any, cooperation
of Apple to the Fink Project. The recent "upgrade" that put the Fink
project on hold for months eloquently demonstrates that.., as does the
recent choice of an inferior browser as "default".
So I would like to know what is the reality of the Fink situation in
relation to Apple.., and should I begin thinking of a complete Debian
PPC Woody "take-over" install on my hard drive?

Chaos is freedom!



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