Re: [Fis] The Inventor of Information as Asymmetry
Dear John, Dear All, It seems clear that Michael Leyton has the greatest credit to be the inventor of the concept of information as asymmetry. During my reading and writing about Gibbs paradox, I saw the definition of "entropy as symmetry" (or "information as asymmetry") is a good one. However, another quantitative definition is obviously easier to manage: I defined "information as compressed data". As a chemist, I have been trying very hard to set up an axiomatic formula of symmetry, entropy and stability to solve problems in chemistry. The task is truly very big and my efforts may have stirred up more problems than it appeared to have solved. This is the main reason that I launched a couple of journals, see the editorials at http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/1/1/1/pdf/ and http://www.mdpi.com/2073-8994/1/1/1/pdf/. I am using my expertise as a publisher to launch another related journal called Information (ISSN 2075-1710, http://www.mdpi.com/journal/information). Top scientists on this mailing list are invited again to serve on the editorial board of Information (ISSN 2075-1710) or be the Editor-in-Chief. A special issue "What Is Information?" (Guest edited by Mark Burgin) will be published, see the http://www.mdpi.com/journal/information/special_issues/whatisinfo website. There will be three journals: Entropy (ISSN 1099-4300, http://www.mdpi.com/journal/entropy) Symmetry (ISSN 2073-8994, http://www.mdpi.com/journal/symmetry) Information (ISSN 2075-1710, http://www.mdpi.com/journal/information) (Only the title "Asymmetry" is missing. I may start this journal also if this one word title is not occupied yet.) Another special issue is "Entropy, Order and Symmetry", http://www.mdpi.com/journal/symmetry/special_issues/entropy-symmetry. I sincerely welcome you to contribute your paper and bring some progress to the studies of this topic. Recently my main interest is "sustainability". I read a lot on this topic during the recent months. Sustainability is also connected to symmetry and stability. Your guys may also publish in this journal at http://www.mdpi.com/journal/sustainability. Comparing to those bad guys who are depleting material resources to make global warm, the guys here working on information, data, knowledge, etc., are all very lovely. Best regards, Shu-Kun John Collier wrote: > Thanks. I still maintain my student carried this idea much further then > anyone > before. > > As I said before, priority in such issues issues is very hard to establish. I > think that Michael Scriven was well ahead on these ideas. He is now known as > Tal > Scriven. His ideas date much earlier than 1992, to say the least. I first > encountered them in 1971 at MIT. > John > > > > John > > At 05:49 PM 2009/11/14, David Weiss wrote: >> The inventor of the concept of Information as Asymmetry is >> Michael Leyton in his enormous book 640 pages >> Symmetry,Causality, Mind (MIT Press, 1992). >> >> Furthermore: Leyton invented the concept of the >> causal basis of information. >> >> In addition, Leyton's book A Generative Theory of Shape >> in Springer (2001), invents an enormous mathematical theory >> of information as asymmetry. >> >> Leyton's work is used by scientists in over 40 disciplines. >> His theorems are used 1000s of times a minute all around the world. >> >> Also, because of the importance of his work he was awarded a major prize from >> the president of the united states. >> >> >> >> >> *Symmetry Causality Mind. By Michael Leyton. MIT Press 1992: Berlin. * >> >> >> >> *A Generative Theory of Shape. By Michael Leyton. MIT Press 2001.* >> >> >> >> >> >> best wishes >> David Weiss >> >> >> > > > Professor John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za > Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South Africa > T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292 F: +27 (31) 260 3031 > http://www.ukzn.ac.za/undphil/collier/index.html ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] The Inventor of Information as Asymmetry
Thanks. I still maintain my student carried this idea much further then anyone before. As I said before, priority in such issues issues is very hard to establish. I think that Michael Scriven was well ahead on these ideas. He is now known as Tal Scriven. His ideas date much earlier than 1992, to say the least. I first encountered them in 1971 at MIT. John John At 05:49 PM 2009/11/14, David Weiss wrote: The inventor of the concept of Information as Asymmetry is Michael Leyton in his enormous book 640 pages Symmetry,Causality, Mind (MIT Press, 1992). Furthermore: Leyton invented the concept of the causal basis of information. In addition, Leyton's book A Generative Theory of Shape in Springer (2001), invents an enormous mathematical theory of information as asymmetry. Leyton's work is used by scientists in over 40 disciplines. His theorems are used 1000s of times a minute all around the world. Also, because of the importance of his work he was awarded a major prize from the president of the united states. Symmetry Causality Mind. By Michael Leyton. MIT Press 1992: Berlin. A Generative Theory of Shape. By Michael Leyton. MIT Press 2001. best wishes David Weiss Professor John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South Africa T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292 F: +27 (31) 260 3031 http://www.ukzn.ac.za/undphil/collier/index.html ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Information states
At 05:33 PM 2009/11/14, you wrote: >While not suggesting a discussion on this, I note that > >John says -- "information and the interpretation of information are >different from >each other" > >I think this is not as clear cut as that. Beginning all the way >back to von Uexkull's >Theoretical Biology, the constructivist perspective takes a >different view. The >'epistemic cut' is created by the observer. The observer is part of the universe and deserves no special status except as a representer. That must be understood in terms of the basic conditions of the universe. This sort of dualism of epistemic cuts is doomed to self-destruction as it removes the observer from the universe. John -- Professor John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South Africa T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292 F: +27 (31) 260 3031 http://www.ukzn.ac.za/undphil/collier/index.html ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
[Fis] Inventor of Information as Asymmetry
Yes, David Weiss is absolutely correct. Michael Leyton did invent the concept of information as asymmetry and published a massive mathematical theory of information in his books. Gordana also pointed out in her PhD thesis years ago how Leyton's concept of information arose from his theory of shape. John Woodbridge %0 -Original Message- From: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic To: fis Cc: Jordi Vallverdú Sent: Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:39 am Subject: [Fis] EUROPEAN COMPUTING AND PHILOSOPHY CONFERENCE, BARCELONA 2009 Dear Colleagues, July 2nd - 4th, 2009 European Congress on Philosophy & Computing, ECAP09 will be held at UA Barcelona. Several of you have already been involved with previous European CAP conferences, and all of you are most welcome to take part and spread the word widely. All the details about ECAP09 may be found at: http://ia-cap.org/e-cap09/programme.htm With best wishes, Gordana Dr Dr Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic Associate Professor Mälardalen University Sweden School of Innovation, Design and Engineering http://www.idt.mdh.se/personal/gdc/ ___ is mailing list i...@listas.unizar.es ttps://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Information states
At 03:42 PM 2009/11/14, Joseph Brenner wrote: Dear Colleagues, John's opening of a new topic Well, Pedro actually raised it, and his article on the subject was contemporaneous with my own. I think that th major difference is that I tried to emphasize both the symmetry and asymmetry aspects. gives the chance of commenting both on his and on my "Assymetry of Information", since both talk about symmetry and symmetry-breaking. John asks how one can make a principled coupling between intrinsic and extrinsic informational entities. I will say, quickly, that my logic in reality would look at these as processes involving mutually dependent variables. Without further detail here, I am inclined to agree. Extrinsic information is mutual information with intrinsic information. There are other forms of mutual information, perhaps of course, which are marvelously interedsting. I don't wish to push this logic further here, but if we are talking, or trying to talk, about a physical interpretation of information, then something like my logic is needed to be able to make inferences about physical states and their evolution. No quarrel here. My definition of "positive" and "negative" information was very crude, but the issue I was trying to get at is how to describe information such that it has /at least/ this much causal "assymetry". I am not happy with the notion of negative information in general, as it seems to me that ideas of information flow (Barwise and Seligam, Information Flow: the Logic of Distributed Systems) requires that information is always positive. They also give conditions und4r which their logic can lead to apparent information being false. But in such cases it is not a flow of information. John I will be very interested in further postings about getting beyond agreement on the physical interpretation. Best regards, Joseph - Original Message - From: John Collier To: Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [Fis] Information states At 02:12 PM 2009/11/10, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote: Dear FIS colleagues, The comments, days ago, by John H on "information states" were intriguing. In my view, the differences he addresses between physical states and informational states could be compacted as the "primacy of the intrinsic" regarding informational entities. The physical state (in my limited understanding) contraposes the extrinsic (boundary conditions) and the intrinsic (state variables and "identity" parameters), and reunites them by means of a set of dynamic equations that express the laws of nature pertinent to the whole context. In the information state, the intrinsic and the extrinsic cannot be separated so easily (only some selected parts of the extrinsic become external "information", those upon which the info entity will perform distinctional operations), but the intrinsic is not really reducible to a collection of variables and parameters, it is a life cycle in progress. Then, how can we express a life cycle in a compact way so to interact lawfully with the extrinsic? Socially we consider this new kind of informational-subject-happenstances as "biographies", and refer to their coupling with the extrinsic as "events." Echoing Koichiro Matsuno (as we wrote together in 1996, after the second FIS event in Washington 1995, in Symmetry Culture and Science, 7,3, 229-30). "This mutual upholding between symmetry and information in theoretical science suggests a unique perspective addressing how the description of both 'states' and 'events' could be integrated in a unified manner." Or in other words, the very need of a new abstraction procedure about the social process of knowledge accretion and recombination... I could not agree more. For an excellent review and expansion of the notion of intrinsic information and how it is viewed extrinsically, see the published PhD thesis of my student Scott Muller, Asymmetry: The Foundation of Information. By Scott Muller. Springer: Berlin. 2007. VIII, 165 p. 33 illus., Hardcover. CHF 139.50. ISBN: 978-3-540-69883-8 I do not agree with Lin's assessment, but there are questions of priority here that are always difficult to resolve. Scott should have, and I told him this, be careful to be clear about what was original to his thesis. I claim the asymmetry principle from a 1996 paper Information Originates in Symmetry Breaking http://www.ukzn.ac.za/undphil/collier/papers/infsym.pdf In the journal Symmetry. Scott added substantially to the justification of my basic idea. The ideas however are implicit in MacKay, Donald M., Information, Mechanism and Meaning. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 1969. and Bateson, G. (1973), Steps to an Ecology of Mind (Paladin. Frogmore, St. Albans). The first calls information a distinction that makes a difference, and the second a difference that makes a difference. Both permit the physical interpretation.
[Fis] The Inventor of Information as Asymmetry
The inventor of the concept of Information as Asymmetry is Michael Leyton in his enormous book 640 pages Symmetry,Causality, Mind (MIT Press, 1992). Furthermore: Leyton invented the concept of the causal basis of information. In addition, Leyton's book A Generative Theory of Shape in Springer (2001), invents an enormous mathematical theory of information as asymmetry. Leyton's work is used by scientists in over 40 disciplines. His theorems are used 1000s of times a minute all around the world. Also, because of the importance of his work he was awarded a major prize from the president of the united states. Symmetry Causality Mind. By Michael Leyton. MIT Press 1992: Berlin. A Generative Theory of Shape. By Michael Leyton. MIT Press 2001. best wishes David Weiss ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Information states
While not suggesting a discussion on this, I note that John says -- "information and the interpretation of information are different from each other" I think this is not as clear cut as that. Beginning all the way back to von Uexkull's Theoretical Biology, the constructivist perspective takes a different view. The 'epistemic cut' is created by the observer. STAN ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Information states
Dear Colleagues, John's opening of a new topic gives the chance of commenting both on his and on my "Assymetry of Information", since both talk about symmetry and symmetry-breaking. John asks how one can make a principled coupling between intrinsic and extrinsic informational entities. I will say, quickly, that my logic in reality would look at these as processes involving mutually dependent variables. I don't wish to push this logic further here, but if we are talking, or trying to talk, about a physical interpretation of information, then something like my logic is needed to be able to make inferences about physical states and their evolution. My definition of "positive" and "negative" information was very crude, but the issue I was trying to get at is how to describe information such that it has /at least/ this much causal "assymetry". I will be very interested in further postings about getting beyond agreement on the physical interpretation. Best regards, Joseph - Original Message - From: John Collier To: Pedro C. Marijuan ; fis Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [Fis] Information states At 02:12 PM 2009/11/10, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote: Dear FIS colleagues, The comments, days ago, by John H on "information states" were intriguing. In my view, the differences he addresses between physical states and informational states could be compacted as the "primacy of the intrinsic" regarding informational entities. The physical state (in my limited understanding) contraposes the extrinsic (boundary conditions) and the intrinsic (state variables and "identity" parameters), and reunites them by means of a set of dynamic equations that express the laws of nature pertinent to the whole context. In the information state, the intrinsic and the extrinsic cannot be separated so easily (only some selected parts of the extrinsic become external "information", those upon which the info entity will perform distinctional operations), but the intrinsic is not really reducible to a collection of variables and parameters, it is a life cycle in progress. Then, how can we express a life cycle in a compact way so to interact lawfully with the extrinsic? Socially we consider this new kind of informational-subject-happenstances as "biographies", and refer to their coupling with the extrinsic as "events." Echoing Koichiro Matsuno (as we wrote together in 1996, after the second FIS event in Washington 1995, in Symmetry Culture and Science, 7,3, 229-30). "This mutual upholding between symmetry and information in theoretical science suggests a unique perspective addressing how the description of both 'states' and 'events' could be integrated in a unified manner." Or in other words, the very need of a new abstraction procedure about the social process of knowledge accretion and recombination... I could not agree more. For an excellent review and expansion of the notion of intrinsic information and how it is viewed extrinsically, see the published PhD thesis of my student Scott Muller, Asymmetry: The Foundation of Information. By Scott Muller. Springer: Berlin. 2007. VIII, 165 p. 33 illus., Hardcover. CHF 139.50. ISBN: 978-3-540-69883-8 I do not agree with Lin's assessment, but there are questions of priority here that are always difficult to resolve. Scott should have, and I told him this, be careful to be clear about what was original to his thesis. I claim the asymmetry principle from a 1996 paper Information Originates in Symmetry Breaking http://www.ukzn.ac.za/undphil/collier/papers/infsym.pdf In the journal Symmetry. Scott added substantially to the justification of my basic idea. The ideas however are implicit in MacKay, Donald M., Information, Mechanism and Meaning. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 1969. and Bateson, G. (1973), Steps to an Ecology of Mind (Paladin. Frogmore, St. Albans). The first calls information a distinction that makes a difference, and the second a difference that makes a difference. Both permit the physical interpretation. I really wish we could get beyond this, and deal with more substantive issues. It has already been decided: information and interpretation of information are different from each other. Regards, John -- Professor John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South Africa T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292 F: +27 (31) 260 3031 http://www.ukzn.ac.za/undphil/collier/index.html -- ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.un
Re: [Fis] Information states
At 02:12 PM 2009/11/10, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote: Dear FIS colleagues, The comments, days ago, by John H on "information states" were intriguing. In my view, the differences he addresses between physical states and informational states could be compacted as the "primacy of the intrinsic" regarding informational entities. The physical state (in my limited understanding) contraposes the extrinsic (boundary conditions) and the intrinsic (state variables and "identity" parameters), and reunites them by means of a set of dynamic equations that express the laws of nature pertinent to the whole context. In the information state, the intrinsic and the extrinsic cannot be separated so easily (only some selected parts of the extrinsic become external "information", those upon which the info entity will perform distinctional operations), but the intrinsic is not really reducible to a collection of variables and parameters, it is a life cycle in progress. Then, how can we express a life cycle in a compact way so to interact lawfully with the extrinsic? Socially we consider this new kind of informational-subject-happenstances as "biographies", and refer to their coupling with the extrinsic as "events." Echoing Koichiro Matsuno (as we wrote together in 1996, after the second FIS event in Washington 1995, in Symmetry Culture and Science, 7,3, 229-30). "This mutual upholding between symmetry and information in theoretical science suggests a unique perspective addressing how the description of both 'states' and 'events' could be integrated in a unified manner." Or in other words, the very need of a new abstraction procedure about the social process of knowledge accretion and recombination... I could not agree more. For an excellent review and expansion of the notion of intrinsic information and how it is viewed extrinsically, see the published PhD thesis of my student Scott Muller, Asymmetry: The Foundation of Information. By Scott Muller. Springer: Berlin. 2007. VIII, 165 p. 33 illus., Hardcover. CHF 139.50. ISBN: 978-3-540-69883-8 I do not agree with Lin's assessment, but there are questions of priority here that are always difficult to resolve. Scott should have, and I told him this, be careful to be clear about what was original to his thesis. I claim the asymmetry principle from a 1996 paper Information Originates in Symmetry Breaking http://www.ukzn.ac.za/undphil/collier/papers/infsym.pdf In the journal Symmetry. Scott added substantially to the justification of my basic idea. The ideas however are implicit in MacKay, Donald M., Information, Mechanism and Meaning. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 1969. and Bateson, G. (1973), Steps to an Ecology of Mind (Paladin. Frogmore, St. Albans). The first calls information a distinction that makes a difference, and the second a difference that makes a difference. Both permit the physical interpretation. I really wish we could get beyond this, and deal with more substantive issues. It has already been decided: information and interpretation of information are different from each other. Regards, John Professor John Collier colli...@ukzn.ac.za Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South Africa T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292 F: +27 (31) 260 3031 http://www.ukzn.ac.za/undphil/collier/index.html ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
