Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?
Caro Pedro e cari Tutti, anche e soprattutto il Natale, è una lieta novella, un'INFORMAZIONE bella e buona. Difatti Gesù Cristo ha preso la forma di carne dell'uomo, senza perdere quella divina. Per tutti, credenti e non credenti o ritenuti tali. D'altra parte, se Dio esiste, come esiste, esiste per tutti, che noi lo vogliamo o meno. Quindi colgo l'occasione per rivolgerVi un AUGURIO di A.more, U.ni-versale, G.rande, U.nico, R.adioso,I.nter-nazionale,O.nto-logico. Un abbraccio da estendere alle Vostre famiglie. Francesco Rizzo. 2014-12-05 19:53 GMT+01:00 Guy A Hoelzer hoel...@unr.edu: Hi All, Like many here, I am very interested in the notion of neuroinformation and the contrast between information as static pattern or temporal process. I want to suggest a way to think of the static and process views of information as identical concepts. I take the static view to be something like the existence of a physical gradient or contrast in state between proximate spaces. The 2nd law of thermodynamics tells us that all such gradients will tend to bread down (disorganize) over time. Therefore, maintenance of static information requires a process. This idea could apply nicely to neuroinformation. For example, memories can fade if they are not accessed occasionally. From this point of view, static contrasts and the processes that maintain them cannot be separated, much like pattern and process cannot be separated in the dissipative systems of Prigogine. Regards, Guy Guy Hoelzer, Associate Professor Department of Biology University of Nevada Reno Phone: 775-784-4860 Fax: 775-784-1302 hoel...@unr.edu On Dec 4, 2014, at 6:57 AM, Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com wrote: Dear Bob, I think, there is no conflict between two points of view – information may be a process and it may be a static depending of what kind of reflection it is. For instance, we reflect the world around: - as static - by photos, art images, sculptures, etc.; - as dynamic - by movies, theater plays, ballet, etc.; - and, at the end, by both types – by static text which creates dynamical imaginations in our consciousness. Friendly regards Krassimir PS: This is my second post for this week. So, I say: Goodbye to the next one! *From:* Bob Logan lo...@physics.utoronto.ca *Sent:* Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:54 PM *To:* Joseph Brenner joe.bren...@bluewin.ch *Cc:* fis@listas.unizar.es *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation? Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information in general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun. Inspired by Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that Information is a verb It is a verb because it describes a process. Although that solves one problem we need to be able to describe a set of signs that have the potential to initiate the process of informing through interpretation. I would not suggest we create another word but recognize that the word information has many meanings and that when it is describing a process it has a verb-like quality to it and when it describes a set of sign that have the potential to be interpreted and hence become information it is acting as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple definition of the term information is not possible because its meaning is so context dependent. This is true of all words but even more so for information. For those that agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those that do not it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups, Bob Logan __ Robert K. Logan Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote: Dear Dr. Isiegas, I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres in the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I like to call it information-as-process, to call attention to its 'structure' being dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic (better spiral or sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and inhibition. I have ascribed an extension of logic to this form of alternating actual and potential states in complex processes at all levels of reality. Best wishes, Joseph B. - Original Message - From: Robert E. Ulanowicz u...@umces.edu To: Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation? Dear Dr. Isiegas: I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem
Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?
Dear Carolina and FIS colleagues, Many thanks for your questions. They have motivated quite interesting responses--I agree with the very cogent comments raised. Only a few further matters to consider about neuroinformation. First, TOPOLOGY. I think all the mappings, gradients, inversions, deletions, amplifications, etc. that exist among the neural surfaces constitute an essential ingredient. Without it, the mass of neural networks would be unable to perform any sophisticate neurocomputation (it is topology rather than mere topography, as all the irregularities conform strategic relationships of vicinity). Second, MOLECULAR SPECIFICITY, that relates to the vast number of neurotransmitters, neuromodulators, hormones, neuropeptides etc. that guide the circulating electricity, organized in signaling pathways of amazing complexity (the postsynaptic sites are signaling theaters with more than a dozen pathways that also include local protein synthesis and degradation). All these molecular recognition events are decisive to orientate the electrical processing, and viceversa, electricity also guides the molecules... together they achieve information processing tied to the advancement and completion of a life cycle (this is crucial in my view). Third, OPTIMIZATION PRINCIPLE, combining minimization of neuronal free energy within a Bayesian scheme, one of the most advanced approaches is by Karl Friston (in a plethora of papers, he has an amazing productivity!). The book Integral Biomathematics (Simeonov, Smith, Ehresman eds., Springer 2012) also contains very interesting discussions about the Bayesian Brain. And finally CONSCIOUSNESS... how fascinating is the organizational path from molecules to consciousness--but how much can we say bout that meaningfully? Neuroinformation, echoing previous comments, appears not as a concrete thing or item but as a gigantic network of processes, a very, very big and complex phenomenon... By the way, Carolina, there is a very interesting implicit view of yours on the relationship between experimentalists and theoreticians---may I inquire about that? But sorry, you have received too many responses... take your time! best ---Pedro Carolina Isiegas wrote: Dear list, I have been reading during the last year all these interesting exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific backgound (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory, specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such brain functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I spent 7 years). I generated several genetically modified mice in which I could regulate the expression of this pathway in specific brain regions and in which I studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the synaptic and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the information flow within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex that in the simple pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for you Fishers or Fisers, how should we contemplate the micro and macro structures of information within the neural realm? what is Neuroinformation? Best wishes, -- Carolina Isiegas -- - Pedro C. Marijuán Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X 50009 Zaragoza, Spain Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 ( 6818) pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ - ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?
Cara Francesco - I enjoyed your post, particularly your sentence: Un'opera d'arte o un bene culturale è nello stesso tempo informato e informatore. I interpreted it to mean a work of art or a cultural good is at the same time informed and an informer. In other words it is informed and it informs. It informs the one who beholds the work of art but by whom is the work of art informed. Grazie e auguri - Bob Logan __ Robert K. Logan Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications On 2014-12-05, at 1:15 AM, Francesco Rizzo wrote: Cari Tutti, Krassimir Markov ha ragione. L'informazione è un processo spazio-temporale statico-dinamico. Un'opera d'arte o un bene culturale è nello stesso tempo informato e informatore.Per questo è meglio parlare di tras-informazione. La Neuroinformation è la più alta e completa forma di tras-informazione emo-ra-zionale (intelligenza razionale e intelligenza emotiva). Essa si articola in : significazione, informazione, comunicazione. Triade semiotica indispensabile per comprendere e interpretare ogni esistenza e ogni conoscenza del mondo fisico, psichico e metafisico. Qualunque scienza naturale o umana o sociale non può farne a meno. Grazie e auguri per Carolina Isiegas. Francesco Rizzo. 2014-12-04 15:57 GMT+01:00 Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com: Dear Bob, I think, there is no conflict between two points of view – information may be a process and it may be a static depending of what kind of reflection it is. For instance, we reflect the world around: - as static - by photos, art images, sculptures, etc.; - as dynamic - by movies, theater plays, ballet, etc.; - and, at the end, by both types – by static text which creates dynamical imaginations in our consciousness. Friendly regards Krassimir PS: This is my second post for this week. So, I say: Goodbye to the next one! From: Bob Logan Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:54 PM To: Joseph Brenner Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation? Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information in general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun. Inspired by Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that Information is a verb It is a verb because it describes a process. Although that solves one problem we need to be able to describe a set of signs that have the potential to initiate the process of informing through interpretation. I would not suggest we create another word but recognize that the word information has many meanings and that when it is describing a process it has a verb-like quality to it and when it describes a set of sign that have the potential to be interpreted and hence become information it is acting as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple definition of the term information is not possible because its meaning is so context dependent. This is true of all words but even more so for information. For those that agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those that do not it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups, Bob Logan __ Robert K. Logan Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote: Dear Dr. Isiegas, I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres in the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I like to call it information-as-process, to call attention to its 'structure' being dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic (better spiral or sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and inhibition. I have ascribed an extension of logic to this form of alternating actual and potential states in complex processes at all levels of reality. Best wishes, Joseph B. - Original Message - From: Robert E. Ulanowicz u...@umces.edu To: Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation? Dear Dr. Isiegas: I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/SymmOvhd.PDF. Please note that this measure is different from the conventional sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more the structural information inhering
Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?
Hi All, Like many here, I am very interested in the notion of neuroinformation and the contrast between information as static pattern or temporal process. I want to suggest a way to think of the static and process views of information as identical concepts. I take the static view to be something like the existence of a physical gradient or contrast in state between proximate spaces. The 2nd law of thermodynamics tells us that all such gradients will tend to bread down (disorganize) over time. Therefore, maintenance of static information requires a process. This idea could apply nicely to neuroinformation. For example, memories can fade if they are not accessed occasionally. From this point of view, static contrasts and the processes that maintain them cannot be separated, much like pattern and process cannot be separated in the dissipative systems of Prigogine. Regards, Guy Guy Hoelzer, Associate Professor Department of Biology University of Nevada Reno Phone: 775-784-4860 Fax: 775-784-1302 hoel...@unr.edumailto:hoel...@unr.edu On Dec 4, 2014, at 6:57 AM, Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.commailto:mar...@foibg.com wrote: Dear Bob, I think, there is no conflict between two points of view – information may be a process and it may be a static depending of what kind of reflection it is. For instance, we reflect the world around: - as static - by photos, art images, sculptures, etc.; - as dynamic - by movies, theater plays, ballet, etc.; - and, at the end, by both types – by static text which creates dynamical imaginations in our consciousness. Friendly regards Krassimir PS: This is my second post for this week. So, I say: Goodbye to the next one! From: Bob Loganmailto:lo...@physics.utoronto.ca Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:54 PM To: Joseph Brennermailto:joe.bren...@bluewin.ch Cc: fis@listas.unizar.esmailto:fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation? Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information in general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun. Inspired by Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that Information is a verb It is a verb because it describes a process. Although that solves one problem we need to be able to describe a set of signs that have the potential to initiate the process of informing through interpretation. I would not suggest we create another word but recognize that the word information has many meanings and that when it is describing a process it has a verb-like quality to it and when it describes a set of sign that have the potential to be interpreted and hence become information it is acting as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple definition of the term information is not possible because its meaning is so context dependent. This is true of all words but even more so for information. For those that agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those that do not it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups, Bob Logan __ Robert K. Logan Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/loganhttp://www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publicationshttp://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote: Dear Dr. Isiegas, I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres in the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I like to call it information-as-process, to call attention to its 'structure' being dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic (better spiral or sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and inhibition. I have ascribed an extension of logic to this form of alternating actual and potential states in complex processes at all levels of reality. Best wishes, Joseph B. - Original Message - From: Robert E. Ulanowicz u...@umces.edumailto:u...@umces.edu To: Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.commailto:cisie...@gmail.com Cc: fis@listas.unizar.esmailto:fis@listas.unizar.es Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation? Dear Dr. Isiegas: I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/SymmOvhd.PDF. Please note that this measure is different from the conventional sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more the structural information inhering in the neuronal network. John Collier (also a FISer) calls such information enformation to draw attention to its different nature. With best wishes for success, Bob Ulanowicz
Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?
Dear Pedro, Carolina and FIS Colleagues, Firstly I want to congratulate Pedro and team for new FIS web site! It looks nice and I am sure it will be useful tool for all of us. Secondly – what is Neuroinformation? From point of view of General Information Theory, it is needed a Subject for which the reflection became information after receiving the evidence what the reflection reflects. But what we have into the Subject? Does he operate with information or only with signals and reflections? Who is/are internal Sub-Subject(s) and evidence(s)? After receiving answers to these questions we may create hypothesizes what is Neuroinformation. I have my own understanding but it will be more good to listen other opinions. What has been investigated by Neuroscience till now? Friendly regards Krassimir From: Carolina Isiegas Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 2:46 PM To: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: [Fis] Neuroinformation? Dear list, I have been reading during the last year all these interesting exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific backgound (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory, specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such brain functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I spent 7 years). I generated several genetically modified mice in which I could regulate the expression of this pathway in specific brain regions and in which I studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the synaptic and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the information flow within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex that in the simple pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for you Fishers or Fisers, how should we contemplate the micro and macro structures of information within the neural realm? what is Neuroinformation? Best wishes, -- Carolina Isiegas ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?
Dear Bob, I think, there is no conflict between two points of view – information may be a process and it may be a static depending of what kind of reflection it is. For instance, we reflect the world around: - as static - by photos, art images, sculptures, etc.; - as dynamic - by movies, theater plays, ballet, etc.; - and, at the end, by both types – by static text which creates dynamical imaginations in our consciousness. Friendly regards Krassimir PS: This is my second post for this week. So, I say: Goodbye to the next one! From: Bob Logan Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:54 PM To: Joseph Brenner Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation? Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information in general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun. Inspired by Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that Information is a verb It is a verb because it describes a process. Although that solves one problem we need to be able to describe a set of signs that have the potential to initiate the process of informing through interpretation. I would not suggest we create another word but recognize that the word information has many meanings and that when it is describing a process it has a verb-like quality to it and when it describes a set of sign that have the potential to be interpreted and hence become information it is acting as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple definition of the term information is not possible because its meaning is so context dependent. This is true of all words but even more so for information. For those that agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those that do not it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups, Bob Logan __ Robert K. Logan Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote: Dear Dr. Isiegas, I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres in the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I like to call it information-as-process, to call attention to its 'structure' being dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic (better spiral or sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and inhibition. I have ascribed an extension of logic to this form of alternating actual and potential states in complex processes at all levels of reality. Best wishes, Joseph B. - Original Message - From: Robert E. Ulanowicz u...@umces.edu To: Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation? Dear Dr. Isiegas: I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/SymmOvhd.PDF. Please note that this measure is different from the conventional sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more the structural information inhering in the neuronal network. John Collier (also a FISer) calls such information enformation to draw attention to its different nature. With best wishes for success, Bob Ulanowicz Dear list, I have been reading during the last year all these interesting exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific backgound (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory, specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such brain functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I spent 7 years). I generated several genetically modified mice in which I could regulate the expression of this pathway in specific brain regions and in which I studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the synaptic and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the information flow within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex that in the simple pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for you Fishers or Fisers, how should we contemplate the micro and macro structures of information within the neural realm? what is Neuroinformation? Best wishes, -- Carolina Isiegas
Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?
Cari Tutti, Krassimir Markov ha ragione. L'informazione è un processo spazio-temporale statico-dinamico. Un'opera d'arte o un bene culturale è nello stesso tempo informato e informatore.Per questo è meglio parlare di tras-informazione. La Neuroinformation è la più alta e completa forma di tras-informazione emo-ra-zionale (intelligenza razionale e intelligenza emotiva). Essa si articola in : significazione, informazione, comunicazione. Triade semiotica indispensabile per comprendere e interpretare ogni esistenza e ogni conoscenza del mondo fisico, psichico e metafisico. Qualunque scienza naturale o umana o sociale non può farne a meno. Grazie e auguri per Carolina Isiegas. Francesco Rizzo. 2014-12-04 15:57 GMT+01:00 Krassimir Markov mar...@foibg.com: Dear Bob, I think, there is no conflict between two points of view – information may be a process and it may be a static depending of what kind of reflection it is. For instance, we reflect the world around: - as static - by photos, art images, sculptures, etc.; - as dynamic - by movies, theater plays, ballet, etc.; - and, at the end, by both types – by static text which creates dynamical imaginations in our consciousness. Friendly regards Krassimir PS: This is my second post for this week. So, I say: Goodbye to the next one! *From:* Bob Logan lo...@physics.utoronto.ca *Sent:* Thursday, December 04, 2014 3:54 PM *To:* Joseph Brenner joe.bren...@bluewin.ch *Cc:* fis@listas.unizar.es *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation? Dear all - I support Joseph's remarks and would suggest that information in general is a process that unfortunately is formulated as a noun. Inspired by Bucky Fuller's I think I am a verb I suggest that Information is a verb It is a verb because it describes a process. Although that solves one problem we need to be able to describe a set of signs that have the potential to initiate the process of informing through interpretation. I would not suggest we create another word but recognize that the word information has many meanings and that when it is describing a process it has a verb-like quality to it and when it describes a set of sign that have the potential to be interpreted and hence become information it is acting as a noun. I would also suggest that a simple definition of the term information is not possible because its meaning is so context dependent. This is true of all words but even more so for information. For those that agree with my sentiments the above is information and for those that do not it is nonsense. My best wishes to both groups, Bob Logan __ Robert K. Logan Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications On 2014-12-04, at 6:40 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote: Dear Dr. Isiegas, I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres in the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I like to call it information-as-process, to call attention to its 'structure' being dynamic, with individual neurones involved in a cyclic (better spiral or sinusoidal) movement between states of activation and inhibition. I have ascribed an extension of logic to this form of alternating actual and potential states in complex processes at all levels of reality. Best wishes, Joseph B. - Original Message - From: Robert E. Ulanowicz u...@umces.edu To: Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com Cc: fis@listas.unizar.es Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation? Dear Dr. Isiegas: I envision neuroinformation as the mutual information of the neuronal network where synaptic connections are weighted by the frequencies of discharge between all pairs of neurons. This is directly analogous to a network of trophic exchanges among an ecosystem, as illustrated in http://people.biology.ufl.edu/ulan/pubs/SymmOvhd.PDF. Please note that this measure is different from the conventional sender-channel-receiver format of communications theory. It resembles more the structural information inhering in the neuronal network. John Collier (also a FISer) calls such information enformation to draw attention to its different nature. With best wishes for success, Bob Ulanowicz Dear list, I have been reading during the last year all these interesting exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific backgound (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory, specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such brain functions (In Ted Abel´s
Re: [Fis] Neuroinformation?
Dear Dr. Isiegas, let me offer some proposals as to the underlying concepts that differentiate treatment of information in the technical and in the biologic understanding. The neuronal process is both sequential and commutative: commutative in the sense that chemical reactions take place concurrently (not one after the other), sequential in the sense that the burst is uniform and comes after a number of ticks (minimal steps of a temporal nature), like a 1 coming after x 0s, and then follow y ticks of 0 again before the next 1. The interplay between sequenced and non-sequenced is fascinating. It appears to this person, that there must exist a threshold after which a qualitatively different process takes place that breaks the space-matter continuum. I think of the same disruptive transformation as observed or interpreted with explosions, supernovae or collapses. We see that there is a gradual process which reaches a limit, after which the process cannot exist, and even the implications of the process become logically impossible. This MIGHT (maybe, just suggesting) be related to the information content in an expression reaching Zero, that is, the redundancy having been eliminated. In this approach information and redundancy are two sides of the same coin. The coin can be visualised by agreeing that the denotation of a logical fact cannot carry any information, as it is by definition a part of a tautological system. (If we figure out once and for all, e.g., how the Sun digests and spits and pulls and does its manifold effects, this naked relation among logical objects will be no news, as it will be a part of the great tautology of a complicated multiplication table: it will become self-evident and we shall say: of course, this cannot function otherwise.) The scientific process, the step-by-step way until we unclothe and discover the quintessential fact, that is information - and this is also a redundancy. Which steps we have gone thru, which cul-de-sacs we have visited, that is information. This we realise after we recognise that these digressions are not that what we have been looking for. Presently, we embellish our ideas about, say, e.g. the Sun, and it is information that previously, people have thought the Sun to be a God or even the main god. Recognising the quintessence, the skeleton of interdependences is peeling off connotations, until that remains which is pure logic - and that cannot be of any informational value above Zero (as it cannot be otherwise), as Kant has pointed out. As to the methods of how to cause a logical explosion, please contemplate that sequences and assemblies of a contemporary nature (mixtures) have massive logical contradictions (see www.OEIS.org A242615) which result in the system of additions not being correct in some cases, as there appear either too much material or too much distance among material entities, so there has to be a disruption. This will take place only if the succession is in its mathematically pure form, that is, without any redundancies. This means that within a set no duplicates are allowed. So, the proposal of this person is to look into the process of uniquify-ing the constituents of the assembly, because if the collection is in its ideal state, it will blow up. Squeezing out redundancy can only be driven up to a point, where there is no more redundancy to be eliminated. In this moment, basic contradictions appear and result in a breakdown of the continuity. That Nature has managed to restart after a mini-catastrophe, even to make use of this planned breakdown as a signal is what is for me the information in our search for the mechanism that is neuro-information. The usage of a lightning that is being provoced by chemical processes. Hope that this can be helpful. Karl 2014-12-03 13:46 GMT+01:00 Carolina Isiegas cisie...@gmail.com: Dear list, I have been reading during the last year all these interesting exchanges. Some of them terrific discussions! Given my scientific backgound (Molecular Neuroscience), I would like to hear your point of view on the topic of neuroinformation, how information exists within the Central Nervous Systems. My task was experimental; I was interested in investigating the molecular mechanisms underlying learning and memory, specifically, the role of the cAMP-PKA-CREB signaling pathway in such brain functions (In Ted Abel´s Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where I spent 7 years). I generated several genetically modified mice in which I could regulate the expression of this pathway in specific brain regions and in which I studied the effects of upregulation or downregulation at the synaptic and behavioral levels. However, I am conscious that the information flow within the mouse Nervous System is far more complex that in the simple pathway that I was studying...so, my concrete question for you Fishers or Fisers, how should we contemplate the micro and macro structures of information within
