Re: [Fis] mind-mind

2017-11-02 Thread Logan Streondj 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256



On 2017-11-01 07:25 PM, Sungchul Ji wrote:
> Hi Michell and FISers,
> 
> 
> "*Data* is that what we see by using the *eyes*. *Information* is
> that what we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the
> *brain*; because it is the background to that what we see by using
> the eyes."
> 

Hi Sung

I see this is a common theme here.

I generally agree,
but would prefer to use noise and connotation here.

the eye receives noise, it is refined along the neuro-nets,
until at some higher level it receives a connotation.

While some input may be a round red gradient, the neuronet will find
edges and the higher nets connotation maybe red ball.

Would you agree that an independent clause is the atom of information?

So getting back to the topic,  of dialogue or mind-mind.
An expressed independent clause (whether as an image, language, or
performance),  is the fundamental atoms with which we communicate.

The expression is itself noise, but with a sufficiently similar
receiver, it can be parsed back into an independent clause.

Certain concepts, like definitions, may require multiple
independent-clauses to support them,  making a molecule of information.


> 
> If you have any question or comments, let me know.
> 
> 
> Sung
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> f  g (*eyes/brain*)
> 
> Reality >  Sign ---> Interpretant
> 
> |  (*Data*) ^
> 
> | |
> 
> 
> |__|
> 
> h (information)
> 
> 
> Figure 1.f = measurement or *eyes*; g = mental process or
> *brain; h = correspondence or *information flow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
- --
>
> 
*From:* Fis <fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Michel Petitjean
> <petitjean.chi...@gmail.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 1, 2017
> 5:29 PM *To:* fis *Subject:* Re: [Fis] mind-mind
> 
> Dear Krassimir, dear ALex, dear All,
> 
> I agree with Krassimir that ideas cannot be transmitted directly
> from Mind to Mind. Being a materialist, I consider that only matter
> exists. Does it mean that information is matter or energy? No. Let
> me discuss about this contradiction. Parenthesis: energy is linked
> to mass through math modeling of physical laws, and mass is a
> property of matter (could also be linked to a modeling concept, but
> it is unimportant here). People (not only scientists) build math
> and non math models to attempt to explain what they observe. Would
> you consider that math is matter? Probably no. Thus math and non
> math models that we build in our heads are not matter. However they
> are produced through some biochemical process, and as such they
> originate from matter. Eventually, it could be considered that math
> and other concepts are a somewhat special part of matter, but I
> think that claim would not be accepted in our current language(s). 
> I consider that "soul", "god", and some other concepts are built in
> our heads. In my opinion, these concepts at best incoherent, if not
> worse. Remark: I have nothing against religions, as far as
> believers do not impose to me the consequences of their beliefs. 
> Religious beliefs must be private affairs. Here, please accept my
> apologies if some of you are shocked by the previous sentences.
> 
> Information is like math: it is a modeling concept applied to some 
> situations. However, I do not claim that information can be reduced
> to the math concepts of information.
> 
> To conclude:
> 
> 1. I agree with Principle 1 of Pedro.
> 
> 2. I assume potential contradictions in my views. No problem: I am
> a poor philosopher. Then,I never claimed that I am "built" to be
> able to elaborate a coherent theory about life, consciousness ,
> etc. May be it is impossible. May be that cannot be decided, etc. 
> All that is opinions. It is just nice and funny to discuss
> information and so on.
> 
> 3. If I would vote for a definition of information, I would retain
> the one of Karl. Citing Karl in his post of the 3 Oct 2017: "Data
> is that what we see by using the eyes. Information is that what we
> do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the brain; 
> because it is the background to that what we see by using the
> eyes."
> 
> All my best,
> 
> Michel.
> 
> Michel Petitjean MTi, INSERM UMR-S 973, University Paris 7, 35 rue
> Helene Brion, 75205 Paris Cedex 13, France. Phone: +331 5727 8434;
> Fax: +331 5727 8372 E-mail: petitjean.chi...@gmail.com
> (preferred), michel.petitj...@univ-paris-diderot.fr 
> https://na01.safelinks.protectio

Re: [Fis] mind-mind

2017-11-02 Thread Francesco Rizzo 
Cari Tutti,
la distinzione tra materialisti e idealisti, corpo e anima (o spirito),
materia e energia è interfacciata o intermediata dall'informazione.
L'informazione è indispensabile per la conoscenza di tutto ciò che
costituisce la realtà dell'esistenza o l'esistenza della realtà del mondo.
Se ciò è vero la materia è un modo o una forma di essere dell'energia e
l'energia è un modo o una forma di essere della materia. Se la conoscenza
di questo mondo è costituita dall'informazione tutto è quantizzato in bit.
Ma i bit non bastano. Bisogna andare oltre la comunicazione di
Shannon inventando una teoria che consideri l'informazione come il concetto
fondamentale, non solo della fisica, ma anche dell'economia, etc.
Nella materia l'energia prende una forma particolare, come nell'energia la
materia prende una forma particolare. Un bene economico è
 contemporaneamente o alternativamente un essere merce (materiale) e un
essere segno (immateriale) o moneta. Quindi la realtà economica è
 ad un tempo liquida e illiquida, monetaria o non monetaria.Si tratta
quindi di "modellizzare" l'intreccio o complementarità o compenetrazione
 o entanglement degli elementi che costituiscono la realtà della vita o la
vita della realtà. I dati o le idee diventano fatti quando le loro forme
significano qualcosa che diventa oggetto di comunicazione. In conclusione
la nostra mente, con la collaborazione di tutti gli organi del nostro corpo,
 fornisce l'informazione ad-atta e ad-attabile per comunicare con gli
altri, perchè comunicando si vive, non vivendo si comunica. In estrema
sintesi,
senza scadere in ragionamenti cervellotici, per informazione  si deve
intendere un'azione o processo che consente di dare forma alle persone
 (non agli individui) e a tutti gli altri esseri viventi (animalii e
vegetali), alle idee e alle cose. Mentre dis-informazione è un'azione o un
processo contrario
al prendere forma, ma significa perdere o degradare la forma.
Un saluto cordiale espresso senza alcuna presunzione o arroganza. Il
miglior modo per comunicare è rispettare tutti, anche quelli che la pensano
e la dicono diversamente da noi.
Francesco Rizzo

2017-11-02 0:25 GMT+01:00 Sungchul Ji <s...@pharmacy.rutgers.edu>:

> Hi Michell and FISers,
>
>
> "*Data* is that what we see by using the *eyes*. *Information* is that
> what
> we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the *brain*;
> because it is the background to that what we see by using the eyes."
>
>
> This paragraph contains the following pairs or relations:
>
>
> Data ~ eyes
>
> Information ~ brain
>
>
> Since eyes cannot function without the brain but the brain can without
> eyes, I wonder if the above tetrad can be reduced to a triad:
>
>
> Data ~ eyes/brain ~ information
>
>
> which in turn may be explained in more detail using the ITR (Irreducible
> Triadic Relation) diagram thus:
>
>
>
>f
> g (*eyes/brain*)
>
>Reality --> Sign
>  --> Interpretant
>
> |(*Data*)
> ^
>
> |
>  |
>
> |___
> |
>
>h (*information*)
>
>
>
>  *Figure 1.  * The *data-information relation* explained on the basis of
> ITR (Irreudicible Triadic Relation).  The arrows read "determines" and
> "interpretant is the effect the sign has on the mind of the interpreter
> (biotic or abiotic).  f = measurement; g = mental process *; *h =
> correspondence or information flow.
>
>
>
>
> If you have any question or comments, let me know.
>
>
> Sung
>
>
>
>
>
>f  g (
> *eyes/brain*)
>
>   Reality >  Sign --->
> Interpretant
>
>|  (*Data*)
>^
>
>|
>   |
>
>|
> __|
>
>   h (information)
>
>
>  Figure 1.f = measurement or *eyes*; g = mental process or *brain; h
> = correspondence or *information flow
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> *From:* Fis <fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Michel Petitjean <
> petitjean.chi...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* We

Re: [Fis] mind-mind

2017-11-01 Thread HowlBloom 

mind to mind experiments have been done in the field of  brain-machine 
interface since 2014.
 
see: 
http://www.washington.edu/news/2014/11/05/uw-study-shows-direct-brain-interface-between-humans/
 
--
Howard Bloom
Howardbloom.net
author of : The  Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces 
of History  ("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post), Global Brain: The 
Evolution of Mass Mind  from the Big Bang to the 21st Century  ("reassuring and 
sobering"-The New  Yorker), The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of 
Capitalism  ("Impressive, stimulating, and tremendously enjoyable."James 
Fallows, National  Correspondent, The Atlantic), The God Problem: How A Godless 
Cosmos Creates  ("Bloom's argument will rock your world." Barbara Ehrenreich), 
How I  Accidentally Started the Sixties (“a monumental,epic, glorious 
literary  achievement.” Timothy Leary), and The Muhammad Code:  How a Desert 
Prophet  Gave You ISIS, al Qaeda, and Boko Haram--or How Muhammad Invented 
Jihad (
“a  terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on Islam,” David Swindle, PJ  
Media).
Former Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute; Former Visiting  Scholar
—Graduate Psychology Department, NewYork University
co-founder: and  chair, Asian Space Technology Summit; founder 
International Paleopsychology  Project; founder and chair, Space Development 
Steering 
Committee; Founding Board  Member: Epic of Evolution Society; Founding Board 
Member, The Darwin Project;  Board Of Governors, National Space Society; 
Founder: The Big Bang Tango Media  Lab; member: New York Academy of Sciences, 
American Association for the  Advancement of Science, American Psychological 
Society, Academy of Political  Science, Human Behavior and Evolution Society, 
International Society for Human  Ethology,  Scientific Advisory Board 
Member, Lifeboat Foundation. Editorial  board member, Journal of Space 
Philosophy. International Advisory Board Member,  Knowledge 
Futures:Interdisciplinary 
Journal of Futures Studies.  

 
In a message dated 11/1/2017 8:13:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mar...@foibg.com writes:

Dear  Alex and FIS Colleagues,

Thank you for the nice remark.

I had  listen about such hypothesis but till now I had no participate in
any  experiment of transferring ideas mind-mind. Maybe you had taken place
in  such experiments. Please, give link to publications in scientific
issues  about this very interesting phenomenon.

Simple question: If it is  possible to transfer ideas mind-mind, why you
use FIS List to send your  ideas to us?

Friendly greetings
Krassimir

PS: Unfortunately,  this is my second post for this week and I please to
excuse me for  answering the next posts after week.



From: Alex Hankey
Sent:  Wednesday, November 01, 2017 12:21 PM
To: Krassimir Markov
Cc: FIS  Webinar
Subject: Re: [Fis] About 10 Principles

RE: P1. Information  is information, neither matter nor energy.

M1. Information is a class  of reflections in material entities. Not every
reflection is information.  Only subjectively comprehended reflections are
information.


ME:  Ideas can be transmitted directly from Mind to Mind - as in  Rupert
Sheldrake's 7th Sense Communication.
Lots of Quantitative  Evidence that Materialists Prefer to Ignore.


The Experience  Information model of the Cognitive States shows that such
Information  States Are Not Material Entities.
They are based round instabilities in  Networks of Neurons.


The ability to model Seventh Sense  Communication means that this
phenomenon becomes one of
Four Separate  Ways to Generate Empirical Evidence in support of them.


Hence  Information is Not Matter or Energy.


This is but one example of how  Principles 1 to 5 can be  supported.



___
Fis  mailing  list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis


___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

Re: [Fis] mind-mind

2017-11-01 Thread Michel Petitjean 
Dear Krassimir, dear ALex, dear All,

I agree with Krassimir that ideas cannot be transmitted directly from
Mind to Mind.
Being a materialist, I consider that only matter exists.
Does it mean that information is matter or energy?
No.
Let me discuss about this contradiction.
Parenthesis: energy is linked to mass through math modeling of
physical laws, and mass is a property of matter (could also be linked
to a modeling concept, but it is unimportant here).
People (not only scientists) build math and non math models to attempt
to explain what they observe.
Would you consider that math is matter?
Probably no.
Thus math and non math models that we build in our heads are not matter.
However they are produced through some biochemical process, and as
such they originate from matter.
Eventually, it could be considered that math and other concepts are a
somewhat special part of matter, but I think that claim would not be
accepted in our current language(s).
I consider that "soul", "god", and some other concepts are built in our heads.
In my opinion, these concepts at best incoherent, if not worse.
Remark: I have nothing against religions, as far as believers do not
impose to me the consequences of their beliefs.
Religious beliefs must be private affairs.
Here, please accept my apologies if some of you are shocked by the
previous sentences.

Information is like math: it is a modeling concept applied to some situations.
However, I do not claim that information can be reduced to the math
concepts of information.

To conclude:

1. I agree with Principle 1 of Pedro.

2. I assume potential contradictions in my views. No problem: I am a
poor philosopher.
Then,I never claimed that I am "built" to be able to elaborate a
coherent theory about life, consciousness , etc. May be it is
impossible. May be that cannot be decided, etc.
All that is opinions. It is just nice and funny to discuss information
and so on.

3. If I would vote for a definition of information, I would retain the
one of Karl.
Citing Karl in his post of the 3 Oct 2017:
"Data is that what we see by using the eyes. Information is that what
we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the brain;
because it is the background to that what we see by using the eyes."

All my best,

Michel.

Michel Petitjean
MTi, INSERM UMR-S 973, University Paris 7,
35 rue Helene Brion, 75205 Paris Cedex 13, France.
Phone: +331 5727 8434; Fax: +331 5727 8372
E-mail: petitjean.chi...@gmail.com (preferred),
michel.petitj...@univ-paris-diderot.fr
http://petitjeanmichel.free.fr/itoweb.petitjean.html

> Dear Alex and FIS Colleagues,
>
> Thank you for the nice remark.
>
> I had listen about such hypothesis but till now I had no participate in any 
> experiment of transferring ideas mind-mind. Maybe you had taken place in such 
> experiments. Please, give link to publications in scientific issues about 
> this very interesting phenomenon.
>
> Simple question: If it is possible to transfer ideas mind-mind, why you use 
> FIS List to send your ideas to us?
>
> Friendly greetings
> Krassimir
>
> PS: Unfortunately, this is my second post for this week and I please to 
> excuse me for answering the next posts after week.
>
>
>
> From: Alex Hankey
> Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 12:21 PM
> To: Krassimir Markov
> Cc: FIS Webinar
> Subject: Re: [Fis] About 10 Principles
>
> RE: P1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.
>
> M1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every 
> reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended reflections are 
> information.
>
> ME: Ideas can be transmitted directly from Mind to Mind - as in Rupert 
> Sheldrake's 7th Sense Communication.
> Lots of Quantitative Evidence that Materialists Prefer to Ignore.
>
> The Experience Information model of the Cognitive States shows that such 
> Information States Are Not Material Entities.
> They are based round instabilities in Networks of Neurons.
>
> The ability to model Seventh Sense Communication means that this phenomenon 
> becomes one of Four Separate Ways to Generate Empirical Evidence in support 
> of them.
>
> Hence Information is Not Matter or Energy.
>
> This is but one example of how Principles 1 to 5 can be supported.

___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

[Fis] mind-mind

2017-11-01 Thread Krassimir Markov 
Dear Alex and FIS Colleagues,

Thank you for the nice remark.

I had listen about such hypothesis but till now I had no participate in
any experiment of transferring ideas mind-mind. Maybe you had taken place
in such experiments. Please, give link to publications in scientific
issues about this very interesting phenomenon.

Simple question: If it is possible to transfer ideas mind-mind, why you
use FIS List to send your ideas to us?

Friendly greetings
Krassimir

PS: Unfortunately, this is my second post for this week and I please to
excuse me for answering the next posts after week.



From: Alex Hankey
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2017 12:21 PM
To: Krassimir Markov
Cc: FIS Webinar
Subject: Re: [Fis] About 10 Principles

RE: P1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.

M1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every
reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended reflections are
information.


ME: Ideas can be transmitted directly from Mind to Mind - as in Rupert
Sheldrake's 7th Sense Communication.
Lots of Quantitative Evidence that Materialists Prefer to Ignore.


The Experience Information model of the Cognitive States shows that such
Information States Are Not Material Entities.
They are based round instabilities in Networks of Neurons.


The ability to model Seventh Sense Communication means that this
phenomenon becomes one of
Four Separate Ways to Generate Empirical Evidence in support of them.


Hence Information is Not Matter or Energy.


This is but one example of how Principles 1 to 5 can be supported.



___
Fis mailing list
Fis@listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis