RE: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
At 2/13/02, you wrote: BERNDT, JON S. (JON) (JSC-EX) (LM) writes: OK. What does Ctrl-U do?? This was a *hack* that incremented altitude by 1000'. It was easy to do in LaRCsim. However, it's ugly, not realistic, and I'd rather have a more sensible and complete set of repositioning options instead. I'd be happy to see us jettison ^U ... Curt. -- Curtis Olson IVLab / HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org I have found the Ctrl-U very useful to jumping up in altitude. Beginners like this feature too. The current deal where the aircraft freezes on crashes is not so handy to me. Why not have some sort of realism feature that at one extreme does not freeze on crashes and allows for some sort of slew to altitude feature and then on the other extreme you've got to claw your way up and when you crash your done. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ** Prof. Michael S. Selig Dept. of Aero/Astro Engineering University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 306 Talbot Laboratory 104 South Wright Street Urbana, IL 61801-2935 (217) 244-5757 (o), (509) 691-1373 (fax) mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig/faq.html (FAQ) ** ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
like this feature too. The current deal where the aircraft freezes on crashes is not so handy to me. Why not have some sort of realism feature that at one extreme does not freeze on crashes and allows for some sort of slew to altitude feature and then on the other extreme you've got to claw your way up and when you crash your done. The freeze feature is typical of the big-boy sims with the object being you don't want negative training by modeling something you can't really model accurately, and also because you are really DEAD. We did not always freeze on crash, but some time ago we were asked to do so because we'd go out of bounds otherwise and segfault - effectively a crash, too, but unrecoverable. I think the best current path is to freeze. In the future, various other ways to handle this could be done, but we don't have time presently. Jon ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
At 4/3/02, you wrote: Michael Selig writes: I have found the Ctrl-U very useful to jumping up in altitude. Beginners like this feature too. The current deal where the aircraft freezes on crashes is not so handy to me. Why not have some sort of realism feature that at one extreme does not freeze on crashes and allows for some sort of slew to altitude feature and then on the other extreme you've got to claw your way up and when you crash your done. LaRCsim was good at 'bouncing' on impact, but at least two other FDM's I'm dealing with are more likely to have their math blow up when faced with the excessively weird stuff that happens on impact. This depending on the situation can lead to the entire sim crashing if the positions returned by the FDM are entirely bogus. It's not unreasonable to make crash behavior configurable if someone out there is willing to do the work. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson IVLab / HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org I definitely understand the arguments for freezing on crash. I'm just saying I liked it the other way (and I believe that on the LaRCsim/UIUC side things still work this way ... we've not changed it). With the new UIUC models that have more reasonable gear parameters, the fgfs *very rarely* crashes like it used to do. I realize that trying to model wild ground handling is not high priority right now. It's also a perspective thing ... big aircraft vs small aircraft. RC models can take a lot of abuse and the funky cart wheeling is nice to have. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ** Prof. Michael S. Selig Dept. of Aero/Astro Engineering University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 306 Talbot Laboratory 104 South Wright Street Urbana, IL 61801-2935 (217) 244-5757 (o), (509) 691-1373 (fax) mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig/faq.html (FAQ) ** ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
Andy Ross writes: freezing on crashses isn't so handy. What *is* a handy thing to do in a crash? I mean, I can't make the plane *not* crash; it already did! :) There's really nothing realistic that can be done in this situation. I suppose I could just invert the vertical component of velocity -- that would be a nice bounce. In all seriousness, though, what would you like? All the consumer simulators I'm aware of do something equivalent to freezing on crashes. Some of them play nice animations of the airplane disintigrating, which is basically the same thing as far as the FDM is concerned. Perhaps Michael likes the ability to 'continue on' after a crash without having to start over? Would reseting and ground trimming at the crash site be enough? Air start at XXX' AGL @ YYY kts at the last good heading at the time of the crash? Curt. -- Curtis Olson IVLab / HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
At 4/3/02, you wrote: Andy Ross writes: freezing on crashses isn't so handy. What *is* a handy thing to do in a crash? I mean, I can't make the plane *not* crash; it already did! :) There's really nothing realistic that can be done in this situation. I suppose I could just invert the vertical component of velocity -- that would be a nice bounce. In all seriousness, though, what would you like? All the consumer simulators I'm aware of do something equivalent to freezing on crashes. Some of them play nice animations of the airplane disintigrating, which is basically the same thing as far as the FDM is concerned. Perhaps Michael likes the ability to 'continue on' after a crash without having to start over? Would reseting and ground trimming at the crash site be enough? Air start at XXX' AGL @ YYY kts at the last good heading at the time of the crash? Curt hits the nail on the head --- I'd just like to continue on, and I think a lot of users would like to do the same. One of my motives: In my workshop right now I am building models for a range of aircraft: RC models --- hang gliders --- sailplanes --- vintage aircraft --- and others. I try to get all the aero right from the start (before I start the sim), but invariably I need to tweak and along the way there are a lot of crashes. Yes, I could restart, but it would be easier to plow along with all that nice airspeed and get back up quick rather than take off from scratch again. Maybe the current freeze on crash logic in the gear code could be set true/false in an xml file? What Curt mentions above, could also work. That's my two cents. Curt. -- Curtis Olson IVLab / HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ** Prof. Michael S. Selig Dept. of Aero/Astro Engineering University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 306 Talbot Laboratory 104 South Wright Street Urbana, IL 61801-2935 (217) 244-5757 (o), (509) 691-1373 (fax) mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig/faq.html (FAQ) ** ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
Curt hits the nail on the head --- I'd just like to continue on, and I ... crashes. Yes, I could restart, but it would be easier to plow along with We'll be glad to honor any sane request ... Recommendations? Jon ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:31:43 -0600, Jon Berndt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Curt hits the nail on the head --- I'd just like to continue on, and I... crashes. Yes, I could restart, but it would be easier to plow along with We'll be glad to honor any sane request ... Recommendations? ..ignore planet Earth? Spool the movie back? Autofire big recoilless tunnel-maker gun? -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Perhaps Michael likes the ability to 'continue on' after a crash without having to start over? Would reseting and ground trimming at the crash site be enough? Air start at XXX' AGL @ YYY kts at the last good heading at the time of the crash? Fly! has this cool feature where you can rewind like a tape player (up to a minute or so) and then fix what you did wrong just before the crash. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
We'll be glad to honor any sane request ... Recommendations? ..ignore planet Earth? Spool the movie back? Autofire big recoilless tunnel-maker gun? Someone's been in the cold too long. ;-) Jon ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
At 4/3/02, you wrote: Curt hits the nail on the head --- I'd just like to continue on, and I ... crashes. Yes, I could restart, but it would be easier to plow along with We'll be glad to honor any sane request ... Recommendations? Jon Asking me? plowtrue or false/plow Seriously, crashDetection/crashDetection ;) Regards, Michael ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel ** Prof. Michael S. Selig Dept. of Aero/Astro Engineering University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 306 Talbot Laboratory 104 South Wright Street Urbana, IL 61801-2935 (217) 244-5757 (o), (509) 691-1373 (fax) mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig/faq.html (FAQ) ** ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
re: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
On Wed, 2002-02-13 at 15:58, Jim Wilson wrote:
Tony Peden [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Wed, 2002-02-13 at 14:59, David Megginson wrote:
Interesting. I have no objection to removing the binding completely,
but it is showing up a more serious problem with JSBSim's ground
trimming (it tries to trim to the ground on reset even when the plane
is already in flight).
The way its set up right now, it should trim in-air if the speed is
above 10 knots.
From FGJSBSim::do_trim():
if(fgic-GetVcalibratedKtsIC() 10 ) {
fgic-SetVcalibratedKtsIC(0.0);
fgtrim=new FGTrim(fdmex,fgic,tGround);
} else {
fgtrim=new FGTrim(fdmex,fgic,tLongitudinal);
}
If there's a more reliable way to figure out that we want to
be on the ground (aside from a similar hack with altitude)
I'll be happy to change it.
It's doing it at full or near full throttle cruise. Is there an exception
handler that's doing a reset (although it's a bad reset...not going back to
the runway)?
OK, I know what the problem is here, and it's going to take some time to
fix. The easiest workaround is probably to have the reset (and/or
control u handler) reset the speed.
Best,
Jim
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
* [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Curt Olson) [2002.02.13 15:44]: BERNDT, JON S. (JON) (JSC-EX) (LM) writes: OK. What does Ctrl-U do?? This was a *hack* that incremented altitude by 1000'. It was easy to do in LaRCsim. However, it's ugly, not realistic, and I'd rather have a more sensible and complete set of repositioning options instead. I'd be happy to see us jettison ^U ... Just to provide some historical context, Ctrl+U used to be more useful when you could get caught upside-down after a crash. Now that we freeze everything on a crash, we don't really need it for anything. -- Cameron Moore [ Why is it that doctors call what they do practice? ] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
Just wondering if we should comment out the binding for this since it still doesn't work with the default FDM. Best, JIm ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
BERNDT, JON S. (JON) (JSC-EX) (LM) writes: OK. What does Ctrl-U do?? This was a *hack* that incremented altitude by 1000'. It was easy to do in LaRCsim. However, it's ugly, not realistic, and I'd rather have a more sensible and complete set of repositioning options instead. I'd be happy to see us jettison ^U ... Curt. -- Curtis Olson IVLab / HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
re: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
Jim Wilson writes: Just wondering if we should comment out the binding for this since it still doesn't work with the default FDM. I does work, but not when the plane is still and on the ground. That's because of a new on-ground property that JSBSim uses. Try starting in flight: fgfs --altitude=5000 --vc=100 then use Ctrl-U, and it should work as expected. All the best, David -- David Megginson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
Curtis L. Olson writes: This was a *hack* that incremented altitude by 1000'. It was easy to do in LaRCsim. However, it's ugly, not realistic, and I'd rather have a more sensible and complete set of repositioning options instead. I'd be happy to see us jettison ^U ... Personally, I'd like to provide a way to switch to slew (magic carpet) mode dynamically, then back to the current FDM. That will involve using a current_fdm stack. All the best, David -- David Megginson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
David Megginson writes: Curtis L. Olson writes: This was a *hack* that incremented altitude by 1000'. It was easy to do in LaRCsim. However, it's ugly, not realistic, and I'd rather have a more sensible and complete set of repositioning options instead. I'd be happy to see us jettison ^U ... Personally, I'd like to provide a way to switch to slew (magic carpet) mode dynamically, then back to the current FDM. That will involve using a current_fdm stack. It would be nice to be able to save the important current fdm state variables and reinitialize with any new aircraft or fdm+aircraft with those as input, then call the trimming routine, and be on our way. This would allow us a lot of 'reset' functionality. Reset to a specific location, reset to a new aircraft, etc. But, we should probably be concentrating more on 0.7.9 this week if possible. :-) Curt. -- Curtis Olson IVLab / HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
re: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
Jim Wilson writes: Hmmm...that does work, but I'm talking about in flight after starting on the ground. Using it while in flight seems to put the plane on the ground instantly (throws an exception or something). Interesting. I have no objection to removing the binding completely, but it is showing up a more serious problem with JSBSim's ground trimming (it tries to trim to the ground on reset even when the plane is already in flight). All the best, David -- David Megginson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
re: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
On Wed, 2002-02-13 at 14:59, David Megginson wrote:
Jim Wilson writes:
Hmmm...that does work, but I'm talking about in flight after starting on the
ground. Using it while in flight seems to put the plane on the ground
instantly (throws an exception or something).
Interesting. I have no objection to removing the binding completely,
but it is showing up a more serious problem with JSBSim's ground
trimming (it tries to trim to the ground on reset even when the plane
is already in flight).
The way its set up right now, it should trim in-air if the speed is
above 10 knots.
From FGJSBSim::do_trim():
if(fgic-GetVcalibratedKtsIC() 10 ) {
fgic-SetVcalibratedKtsIC(0.0);
fgtrim=new FGTrim(fdmex,fgic,tGround);
} else {
fgtrim=new FGTrim(fdmex,fgic,tLongitudinal);
}
If there's a more reliable way to figure out that we want to
be on the ground (aside from a similar hack with altitude)
I'll be happy to change it.
All the best,
David
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re: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
Tony Peden [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Wed, 2002-02-13 at 14:59, David Megginson wrote:
Interesting. I have no objection to removing the binding completely,
but it is showing up a more serious problem with JSBSim's ground
trimming (it tries to trim to the ground on reset even when the plane
is already in flight).
The way its set up right now, it should trim in-air if the speed is
above 10 knots.
From FGJSBSim::do_trim():
if(fgic-GetVcalibratedKtsIC() 10 ) {
fgic-SetVcalibratedKtsIC(0.0);
fgtrim=new FGTrim(fdmex,fgic,tGround);
} else {
fgtrim=new FGTrim(fdmex,fgic,tLongitudinal);
}
If there's a more reliable way to figure out that we want to
be on the ground (aside from a similar hack with altitude)
I'll be happy to change it.
It's doing it at full or near full throttle cruise. Is there an exception
handler that's doing a reset (although it's a bad reset...not going back to
the runway)?
Best,
Jim
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re: [Flightgear-devel] CTRL+U and JSBsim
Tony Peden [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
The way its set up right now, it should trim in-air if the speed is
above 10 knots.
From FGJSBSim::do_trim():
if(fgic-GetVcalibratedKtsIC() 10 ) {
fgic-SetVcalibratedKtsIC(0.0);
fgtrim=new FGTrim(fdmex,fgic,tGround);
} else {
fgtrim=new FGTrim(fdmex,fgic,tLongitudinal);
}
If there's a more reliable way to figure out that we want to
be on the ground (aside from a similar hack with altitude)
I'll be happy to change it.
Ah...one more thing. When it does this jbssim reports that it's setting the
correct altitude, then it goes to the same elevation as the starting position
(just doesn't change the long/lat). Then it seems if you aren't in the right
place it crashes with a Fatal error: Tile not found, attempting to schedule
tiles for a bogus long/lat.
This link below is the output from such an event. It appears that the ground
level at the location where the program crashed was actually 539ft or about
200-300 feet higher than the initial altitude at take-off. Not sure if I'm
reading this right, but maybe you can see something here:
http://www.spiderbark.com/fgfs/ctrlubug.txt
Best,
Jim
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