Re: [Flightgear-devel] control trim reset
On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 23:17:13 +0900 Tatsuhiro Nishioka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Oops, my bad explanation. > > On Dec 8, 2007, at 11:00 PM, Tatsuhiro Nishioka wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > One comment on this. > > > > J7W has Flap-driven Elevator-Trim Controller. it automatically adjusts > > elevator trim > > when flap is applied to avoid pushing up its tail. > > When flap is applied, J7W automatically adjusts its elevator trim to > avoid pushing up its tail. > > Though I'm not sure I want to use 5 key to reset all controls on J7W, > since such sudden control > may crash this cute canard. > > Anyway, it's a really good discussion. > I like this kinda topic since I can learn a bit more about using trims. > > Thanks guys > > Tat > HI Tat . Don't worry , I was thinking of it as a reset function . And now I agree it shouldn't be added :) I just need to find out how the real Bravo autopilot handles trim when the autopilot disengages because of excessive roll or pitch ... Cheers -- Syd&Sandy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - SF.Net email is sponsored by: Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. It's the best place to buy or sell services for just about anything Open Source. http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] control trim reset
Oops, my bad explanation. On Dec 8, 2007, at 11:00 PM, Tatsuhiro Nishioka wrote: > Hi, > > One comment on this. > > J7W has Flap-driven Elevator-Trim Controller. it automatically adjusts > elevator trim > when flap is applied to avoid pushing up its tail. When flap is applied, J7W automatically adjusts its elevator trim to avoid pushing up its tail. Though I'm not sure I want to use 5 key to reset all controls on J7W, since such sudden control may crash this cute canard. Anyway, it's a really good discussion. I like this kinda topic since I can learn a bit more about using trims. Thanks guys Tat - SF.Net email is sponsored by: Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. It's the best place to buy or sell services for just about anything Open Source. http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] control trim reset
Hi, One comment on this. J7W has Flap-driven Elevator-Trim Controller. it automatically adjusts elevator trim when flap is applied to avoid pushing up its tail. If elevator trim is reset by pressing 5, then the trim won't be in the center position when flap is all the way up. So resetting elevator trim is no good as long as j7w is concerned. See the following for detail: http://macflightgear.sourceforge.net/home/aircraft/j7w/j7w-manual/ Best, Tat On Dec 6, 2007, at 6:50 AM, Curtis Olson wrote: > On Dec 5, 2007 3:33 PM, John Denker <> wrote: > Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought "5" was a > mouse-only solution to a mouse-only problem. > > "5" is a solution to a keybaord control issue, and it can come in > handy for people that use a mouse too ... if done carefully. It > should be useless for someone flying with a joystick since the > joystick will overwrite the position on the next frame anyway. > > Curt. > -- > Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ > Unique text: 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d > - > SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper > from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going > mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. > http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4___ > Flightgear-devel mailing list > Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel - SF.Net email is sponsored by: Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace. It's the best place to buy or sell services for just about anything Open Source. http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] control trim reset
On Dec 5, 2007 3:33 PM, John Denker <> wrote: > Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought "5" was a > mouse-only solution to a mouse-only problem. "5" is a solution to a keybaord control issue, and it can come in handy for people that use a mouse too ... if done carefully. It should be useless for someone flying with a joystick since the joystick will overwrite the position on the next frame anyway. Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ Unique text: 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] control trim reset
"Vivian Meazza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in part; >> ... (not that I use it very often) ... On 12/05/2007 02:59 PM, Syd&Sandy wrote: > ok that answers my question I thought it was more a user option to > center joystick , etc... Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought "5" was a mouse-only solution to a mouse-only problem. I wouldn't expect anybody with a hardware joystick to have any use for "5". A HW joystick has springs that return it to zero force and zero deflection. Real aircraft have a readily perceptible zero-force point as well as a zero-deflection point (not the same). The joyless mouse lacks all of the above, so having a key that warps the controls to zero has merit. It does not correspond to anything in the real airplane, but that doesn't bother me, since I consider it an appropriate solution to an unrealistic problem. I think everybody agrees that a) joysticks are better than mice, but b) we need to support mice. > But now I'm really curious how a real autopilot system handles this Handles what, exactly? There's no support for anything like "5" that I've ever heard of in real aircraft. I'm having a little trouble imagining why anybody would want such a thing. There are certification regs concerning stick force, so that any certified aircraft is going to do something reasonable if you just let go of the stick. Again it seems the "5" is a non-real-world solution to a non-real-world problem. The closest thing I can think of is an AP with the follow-the-stick feature: That is, you can establish a rate of climb and/or a rate of turn with the stick, and then tell the AP to maintain what you've got. - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] control trim reset
On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 18:21:45 - "Vivian Meazza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > John Denker > > > > Sent: 05 December 2007 16:43 > > To: FlightGear developers discussions > > Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] control trim reset > > > > > > On 12/04/2007 11:26 PM, Syd&Sandy wrote: > > > Hi all , I've added the elevator, aileron and rudder trim to the > > > control-centering function - keypad ( 5 ). Should this be added > > > before the release ? Or is there a particular reason that the trims > > > aren't reset ? > > > > There is _some_ merit to this idea, but it needs refinement; > > see below for details. > > > > > developed the habit of hitting the 5 key before releasing the brakes > > > > As Curt pointed out, simply zeroing the trims is a Bad Idea. > > In most airplanes -- simulated and real-life -- zeroing the > > trim is not the right answer. > > > > In the C182 for instance -- FG and RL -- you would be well > > advised to apply significantly nonzero elevator and rudder > > trim before takeoff. A certain nonpilot on this list dismissed > > this as "probably not that much help" but every RL pilot I > > know does it anyway. > > > > The general problem of setting the trim to the "desired" > > value is ESP-complete; that is, it requires reading the > > pilot's mind to ascertain his intentions. As an extreme > > example of this, suppose I am buzzing along upside down in my > > Decathlon, trimmed for straight-and-level inverted flight. > > If I push "5" to center the primary flight controls, I definitely do > > not want the trim set to zero, nor set to the level-flight > > values. > > > > So, all evidence suggests that there is a need for a "5" > > command that does /not/ mess with the trim. > > > > You could *also* implement something that does set the > > trim automagically. I know a simple way to do this, if > > anybody is interested. However, I don't recommend it, > > because it is both unnecessary and unrealistic. > > This sort of automation appeals to people who drive cars, > > and expect to be able to jump in and drive away. It is, > > alas, highly unrealistic in present-day general-aviation > > aircraft, where the pilot expects to spend quite a long time > > running the preflight checklists, including setting the trim. > > > > One problem is that many aircraft in the FG fleet lack > > usable trim-position indicators. That is why the Sport > > Model contains a popup that provides the necessary > > information. (The popup is only a workaround, it is > > not meant as a long-term replacement for a proper > > realistic trim-position indicator.) > > > > http://www.av8n.com/fly/fgfs/README.sport.model > > http://www.av8n.com/fly/fgfs/git-overview > > > I use t to autotrim the Buccaneer, and T to remove all trims when I get it > wrong and need to retrim. No need to touch 5 - it centres the controls, > that's enough (not that I use it very often). Autotrim is quite a handy > function. I don't think it's used much. It kind of simulates the way trim > can be used to remove stick pressure. > > Vivian > ok that answers my question I thought it was more a user option to center joystick , etc... But now I'm really curious how a real autopilot system handles this Thanks , guys ... Cheers -- Syd&Sandy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] control trim reset
John Denker > Sent: 05 December 2007 16:43 > To: FlightGear developers discussions > Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] control trim reset > > > On 12/04/2007 11:26 PM, Syd&Sandy wrote: > > Hi all , I've added the elevator, aileron and rudder trim to the > > control-centering function - keypad ( 5 ). Should this be added > > before the release ? Or is there a particular reason that the trims > > aren't reset ? > > There is _some_ merit to this idea, but it needs refinement; > see below for details. > > > developed the habit of hitting the 5 key before releasing the brakes > > As Curt pointed out, simply zeroing the trims is a Bad Idea. > In most airplanes -- simulated and real-life -- zeroing the > trim is not the right answer. > > In the C182 for instance -- FG and RL -- you would be well > advised to apply significantly nonzero elevator and rudder > trim before takeoff. A certain nonpilot on this list dismissed > this as "probably not that much help" but every RL pilot I > know does it anyway. > > The general problem of setting the trim to the "desired" > value is ESP-complete; that is, it requires reading the > pilot's mind to ascertain his intentions. As an extreme > example of this, suppose I am buzzing along upside down in my > Decathlon, trimmed for straight-and-level inverted flight. > If I push "5" to center the primary flight controls, I definitely do > not want the trim set to zero, nor set to the level-flight > values. > > So, all evidence suggests that there is a need for a "5" > command that does /not/ mess with the trim. > > You could *also* implement something that does set the > trim automagically. I know a simple way to do this, if > anybody is interested. However, I don't recommend it, > because it is both unnecessary and unrealistic. > This sort of automation appeals to people who drive cars, > and expect to be able to jump in and drive away. It is, > alas, highly unrealistic in present-day general-aviation > aircraft, where the pilot expects to spend quite a long time > running the preflight checklists, including setting the trim. > > One problem is that many aircraft in the FG fleet lack > usable trim-position indicators. That is why the Sport > Model contains a popup that provides the necessary > information. (The popup is only a workaround, it is > not meant as a long-term replacement for a proper > realistic trim-position indicator.) > > http://www.av8n.com/fly/fgfs/README.sport.model > http://www.av8n.com/fly/fgfs/git-overview I use t to autotrim the Buccaneer, and T to remove all trims when I get it wrong and need to retrim. No need to touch 5 - it centres the controls, that's enough (not that I use it very often). Autotrim is quite a handy function. I don't think it's used much. It kind of simulates the way trim can be used to remove stick pressure. Vivian - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] control trim reset
On 12/04/2007 11:26 PM, Syd&Sandy wrote: > Hi all , I've added the elevator, aileron and rudder trim to the > control-centering function - keypad ( 5 ). Should this be added > before the release ? Or is there a particular reason that the trims > aren't reset ? There is _some_ merit to this idea, but it needs refinement; see below for details. > developed the habit of hitting the 5 key before releasing the brakes As Curt pointed out, simply zeroing the trims is a Bad Idea. In most airplanes -- simulated and real-life -- zeroing the trim is not the right answer. In the C182 for instance -- FG and RL -- you would be well advised to apply significantly nonzero elevator and rudder trim before takeoff. A certain nonpilot on this list dismissed this as "probably not that much help" but every RL pilot I know does it anyway. The general problem of setting the trim to the "desired" value is ESP-complete; that is, it requires reading the pilot's mind to ascertain his intentions. As an extreme example of this, suppose I am buzzing along upside down in my Decathlon, trimmed for straight-and-level inverted flight. If I push "5" to center the primary flight controls, I definitely do not want the trim set to zero, nor set to the level-flight values. So, all evidence suggests that there is a need for a "5" command that does /not/ mess with the trim. You could *also* implement something that does set the trim automagically. I know a simple way to do this, if anybody is interested. However, I don't recommend it, because it is both unnecessary and unrealistic. This sort of automation appeals to people who drive cars, and expect to be able to jump in and drive away. It is, alas, highly unrealistic in present-day general-aviation aircraft, where the pilot expects to spend quite a long time running the preflight checklists, including setting the trim. One problem is that many aircraft in the FG fleet lack usable trim-position indicators. That is why the Sport Model contains a popup that provides the necessary information. (The popup is only a workaround, it is not meant as a long-term replacement for a proper realistic trim-position indicator.) http://www.av8n.com/fly/fgfs/README.sport.model http://www.av8n.com/fly/fgfs/git-overview - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] control trim reset
On Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:56:04 -0600 "Curtis Olson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Dec 4, 2007 10:26 PM, Syd&Sandy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hi all , > > I've added the elevator, aileron and rudder trim to the control-centering > > function - keypad ( 5 ). > > Should this be added before the release ? Or is there a particular reason > > that the trims aren't reset ? > > It,ll just take a minute to commit if everyone agrees ... > > > Most of the time reseting trims is not desirable. Pressing the 5 key is > sort of almost, but maybe not quite like letting go of the controls, or > maybe moving the controls to their neutral/zero pressure state. > > Regards, > > Curt. > -- > Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ > Unique text: 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d > OK. I've always thought it was meant to just recenter everything , if joystick wasn't centered at startup , ... and Ive developed the habit of hitting the 5 key before releasing the brakes , just in case :) . The autopilot can really mess this up , so I suppose I could just disable that while WoW ... Cheers -- Syd&Sandy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] control trim reset
On Dec 4, 2007 10:26 PM, Syd&Sandy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi all , > I've added the elevator, aileron and rudder trim to the control-centering > function - keypad ( 5 ). > Should this be added before the release ? Or is there a particular reason > that the trims aren't reset ? > It,ll just take a minute to commit if everyone agrees ... Most of the time reseting trims is not desirable. Pressing the 5 key is sort of almost, but maybe not quite like letting go of the controls, or maybe moving the controls to their neutral/zero pressure state. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ Unique text: 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] control trim reset
Hi all , I've added the elevator, aileron and rudder trim to the control-centering function - keypad ( 5 ). Should this be added before the release ? Or is there a particular reason that the trims aren't reset ? It,ll just take a minute to commit if everyone agrees ... Cheers -- Syd&Sandy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
