[fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
Dear Fossil Gurus, I'm a new user - have been using Fossil for just over a month now - and I'm loving it. One point that I found somewhat disappointing, is that Fossil creates a .fossil database in my home directory. I know that many applications in Linux/Unix store their preferences and settings in dot-files, in the user's home directory - ie., ~/.myapp. This, however, is a Linux standard, and does not translate to other platforms. Windows has appropriate directories where applications are supposed to store preferences, and so does the MacOS. The Apple guidelines are quite specific as to where applications should store their temporary, support and preference files, and the system provides *several* places that developer should use (and apps that don't are not considered 'good citizens'). There are also guidelines for the *naming* of such support files on all platforms... I believe that it should not be too difficult to add a check in the Fossil code, so that the name and location of the .fossil would vary, depending on the platform it's running in. I was going to add that as a request ticket to the Fossil repo, but saw that it was recommended that we run this by the user-list first, to see whether this is something that has been previously discussed or not. Is there a reason why this should not be added as a feature request? Kind regards, -- Igor Couto Sydney, Australia ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
[fossil-users] Fossil Web Interface - Separation of HTML from Code
Dear Fossil Gurus, The HTML used in the web interface of Fossil is... well... let's just say, not optimal. Although the web interface is sufficiently functional, it could do with an upgrade - ie, use proper html5 elements, make use of a responsive layout, etc. I have played with editing the 'header', 'footer' and 'css' of the 'skin', but that is not enough. The html of the main 'content' section of every page is hard-coded into the Fossil core. This seems to mean, that it is not possible to easily change the html of individual pages - not without changing the application's code, and recompiling it... I saw that there were (at least) a couple of feature request tickets, that ask about separating the html from the main code base - to make customisation easier. These tickets, however, seem to be quite old. Does anyone know whether there are any plans to do that? If not, I might spend some time trying to *really* customise the interface by using some brute-force javascript to totally re-write the html elements currently produced by the standard fossil output for its various pages. This, however, is not an easy or elegant solution - and would definitely be redundant, if the html is going to be separated from the core code any time in the near future (and I won't want to spend any time on a javascript solution)... Does anyone know if there are any plans on separating the html from the code? Many thanks in advance for any info, -- Igor Couto Sydney, Australia ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 5:34 PM, Igor de Oliveira Couto i...@semperuna.comwrote: Dear Fossil Gurus, Well, okay, if you insist ;) ...I believe that it should not be too difficult to add a check in the Fossil code, so that the name and location of the .fossil would vary, depending on the platform it's running in. I was going to add that as a request ticket to the Fossil repo, but saw that it was recommended that we run this by the user-list first, to see whether this is something that has been previously discussed or not. The name can in fact vary per platform (namely, _FOSSIL_ was initially intended to work around Windows' dislike of .fossil, IIRC), but we do not have (and do not want) a lot of platform-specific code just to figure out where the global config db needs to be. The current solution has been in place since 2007 or 2008 and (to the best of my knowledge) has never posed a particular technical problem (other than that the code for dealing with the Windows home directory is 5-10x the size of the equivalent platform-neutral code). Is it a style violation for some OSes? Very possibly, but very few OSes punish users for style violations (Apple being the only vendor i'm aware of who enforces style guidelines on 3rd-party developers, e.g. the Qt toolkit does something they way it does because Apple makes them do it that way (to paraphrase one of the Qt devs)). Is there a reason why this should not be added as a feature request? Maintainability. The majority of the more active fossil devs, including its primary developer (Richard, aka drh), work on Unix machines of some sort. A few of the devs work on Windows or Cygwin, and Jan Nijtmans does quite a lot of work getting everything running smoothly on Windows (there are lots of superfluous Unicode/Native conversions, as well as notable path-handling nuances, in Windows), but every line of code we don't have to do differently for a specific platform is, all in all, a win. PS: welcome aboard, and please keep the feedback coming. -- - stephan beal http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/ http://gplus.to/sgbeal Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do. -- Bigby Wolf ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Fossil Web Interface - Separation of HTML from Code
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Igor de Oliveira Couto i...@semperuna.comwrote: The HTML used in the web interface of Fossil is... well... let's just say, not optimal. Although the web interface is sufficiently functional, it could do with an upgrade - ie, use proper html5 elements, make use of a responsive layout, etc. Short answer: it's not feasible to separate these in the current code basis. They are bound _very closely_ at the C level, at the printf-call level, and argument re-ordering (sometimes needed for non-English translations) is not possible with this API. That said, one of the reasons libfossil was started was to resolve exactly that limitation, and libfossil has several demos in place where all of the display code/logic is 100% separated from the core library: http://fossil.wanderinghorse.net/repos/libfossil/cgidemo/index.cgi/ In fact, in those, demos, the display logic is two API levels removed from libfossil: libfossil == script engine bindings == HTML code generated from script code I saw that there were (at least) a couple of feature request tickets, that ask about separating the html from the main code base - to make customisation easier. These tickets, however, seem to be quite old. Does anyone know whether there are any plans to do that? For better or worse, it simply cannot be done on the current code basis. It would require replacing nearly everything, as well as adding infrastructure for i18n. libfossil is, however, far enough along that it can be used for many types of applications (no network support being the main shortcoming right now), so you might find something interesting over there. If not, I might spend some time trying to *really* customise the interface by using some brute-force javascript IMO: don't bother. It will end in pain and frustration and so many ugly hacks that you won't be able to sleep at night. Does anyone know if there are any plans on separating the html from the code? not in fossil(1), but see fossil(3): http://fossil.wanderinghorse.net/repos/libfossil/ -- - stephan beal http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/ http://gplus.to/sgbeal Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do. -- Bigby Wolf ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Igor de Oliveira Couto i...@semperuna.com wrote: loving it. One point that I found somewhat disappointing, is that Fossil creates a .fossil database in my home directory. I know that many applications in Linux/Unix store their preferences and settings in dot-files, in the user's home directory - ie., ~/.myapp. This, however, is a Linux standard, and does not translate to other platforms. Yes, this occurred to me as well, since I also use an OS (Haiku) that specifies where certain files go ideally. I had thought of providing a patch so the .fossil ends up in a given user's settings directory, but didn't get around to doing it, as I admit it slipped my mind until now. :) preferences, and so does the MacOS. The Apple guidelines are quite specific as to where applications should store their temporary, support and preference files, and the system provides *several* places that developer should use (and apps that don't are not considered 'good citizens'). There are also guidelines for the *naming* of such support files on all platforms... Yes, in Haiku, settings should live in the B_USER_SETTINGS_DIRECTORY (basically, you check against this macro and see what the system gives you back). That said, it happily works fine in ~ as Fossil does now. I suppose it's not the correct way of doing things though, even if it works fine and I doubt many or any people would notice. I believe that it should not be too difficult to add a check in the Fossil code, so that the name and location of the .fossil would vary, depending on the platform it's running in. I was going to add that as a request ticket to the Fossil repo, but saw that it was recommended that we run this by the user-list first, to see whether this is something that has been previously discussed or not. Is there a reason why this should not be added as a feature request? Yes, I suppose it could be done, but as Stephan mentioned, it may be a pain to keep this maintained as platforms may decide to change the settings directories around, for example. I know on Haiku we have done this more than once, but well, we are still an immature platform, so that is to be expected. I don't expect such things on mature platforms. If it were decided to add in the preferred settings directories for additional platforms, I would gladly provide a patch for Haiku. I don't know anything about OS X though, personally, so I can't help there. - joe ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
Thank you for the quick response!: On 22 May 2014, at 1:46 am, Stephan Beal sgb...@googlemail.com wrote: Is there a reason why this should not be added as a feature request? Maintainability.[...] Understandable: resources have to be used and focused where they are most needed... PS: welcome aboard, and please keep the feedback coming. Thank you! Kindest regards, -- Igor Couto Sydney, Australia signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Fossil Web Interface - Separation of HTML from Code
Thank you for the explanation: On 22 May 2014, at 1:54 am, Stephan Beal sgb...@googlemail.com wrote: On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Igor de Oliveira Couto i...@semperuna.com wrote: The HTML used in the web interface of Fossil is... well... let's just say, not optimal. Although the web interface is sufficiently functional, it could do with an upgrade - ie, use proper html5 elements, make use of a responsive layout, etc. Short answer: it's not feasible to separate these in the current code basis. They are bound _very closely_ at the C level, at the printf-call level, and argument re-ordering (sometimes needed for non-English translations) is not possible with this API. That is a shame... That said, one of the reasons libfossil was started was to resolve exactly that limitation, and libfossil has several demos in place where all of the display code/logic is 100% separated from the core library: http://fossil.wanderinghorse.net/repos/libfossil/cgidemo/index.cgi/ In fact, in those, demos, the display logic is two API levels removed from libfossil: libfossil == script engine bindings == HTML code generated from script code Great! - that sounds more logical. I saw that there were (at least) a couple of feature request tickets, that ask about separating the html from the main code base - to make customisation easier. These tickets, however, seem to be quite old. Does anyone know whether there are any plans to do that? For better or worse, it simply cannot be done on the current code basis. It would require replacing nearly everything, as well as adding infrastructure for i18n. libfossil is, however, far enough along that it can be used for many types of applications (no network support being the main shortcoming right now), so you might find something interesting over there. Is development now focused on libfossil, rather than fossil itself? If not, I might spend some time trying to *really* customise the interface by using some brute-force javascript IMO: don't bother. It will end in pain and frustration and so many ugly hacks that you won't be able to sleep at night. *hehehe* I am a Designer, so the current interface is keeping me awake and giving me nightmares already... ;-) I might have a hack at it, if I have a chance - ie., might try to produce a nicer skin, using jquery (from cdn) to rewrite (most of) the DOM, as needed. I will let you know if I end up with anything usable. Once again, many thanks for the information, and for welcoming me into the Fossil community. Kindest regards, -- Igor Couto Sydney, Australia signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
Wow, I must confess I had never even heard of 'Haiku', so I had to go and look it up! : On 22 May 2014, at 2:11 am, Joe Prostko joe.pros...@gmail.com wrote: [...] If it were decided to add in the preferred settings directories for additional platforms, I would gladly provide a patch for Haiku. I don't know anything about OS X though, personally, so I can't help there. OS X is actually quite simple: Preference files can be named anything, but should NOT be 'dot-files' (as these are normally kept invisible by the system). To avoid name-collision, Apple suggest developers use a reverse-dns notation to name their app support files - like com.mycompany.myapp.prefs. - preferences for a single user should be stored in ~/library/preferences/ - preferences for all users in the machine should be stored in /library/preferences/ Mac users tend to frown at apps that create invisible folders in their home directory. A friend of mine downloaded the Atom text editor recently released by the GitHub folks, and installed it on his Mac - just to quickly uninstal it, once he found out it wrote one (or two) invisible config files to his home directory... I envy programmers like you who talk about hacking directly at C code, as if you were just editing a web page. That is a bit beyond my capabilities, but I am very glad there are people like you who use your superpowers for the benefit of us, mere mortals! ;-) Kindest regards, -- Igor Couto Sydney, Australia signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 6:39 PM, Igor de Oliveira Couto i...@semperuna.comwrote: Preference files can be named anything, but should NOT be 'dot-files' (as these are normally kept invisible by the system). In fact, that's the reason it starts with a dot - users should NOT be touching that file directly. It's for fossil's internal use. - preferences for a single user should be stored in ~/library/preferences/ - preferences for all users in the machine should be stored in /library/preferences/ And if the dir structure doesn't exist, fossil has to go creating it, etc. We know the home dir exists, which makes it easy. Ideal? No, but easy. Mac users tend to frown at apps that create invisible folders in their home directory. A friend of mine downloaded the Atom text editor recently released by the GitHub folks, and installed it on his Mac - just to quickly uninstal it, once he found out it wrote one (or two) invisible config files to his home directory... We all have our quirks. One of mine is that i refuse to come into physical contact with an Apple product of any sort, do not provide any tech support of any kind for Apple products, nor do i allow Apple products in my flat. (Why i do that is not relevant here, i'm just pointing out that we are all pedantic about something or other.) i'll admit to having uninstalled apps which have violated my sense of propriety, but an extra file in my home dir is not (because of the Unix history behind it) one of those proprieties. Historical momentum wins here, i think, and Unix has -lots- of historical momentum. I envy programmers like you who talk about hacking directly at C code, as if you were just editing a web page. That is a bit beyond my capabilities, but I am very glad there are people like you who use your superpowers for the benefit of us, mere mortals! ;-) It's a learned behaviour - when i got back into C in 2007 (after a 12 year hiatus), i felt much the same way as you express now. Since then, C has replaced C++ as my native language. Just a shame that all job offers in recent history have been for Java work :/. -- - stephan beal http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/ http://gplus.to/sgbeal Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do. -- Bigby Wolf ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Fossil Web Interface - Separation of HTML from Code
Oooh, all of this sounds *really* interesting and exciting: On 22 May 2014, at 2:25 am, Stephan Beal sgb...@googlemail.com wrote: [...] That, of course, is possible, and some people here have done up some impressive skins, [...] Where can I find some of these? - I had a quick look through the repositories at 'Chisel', but found only 3 skins there. You might also find the JSON API useful, as it basically emulates as many of the CLI/HTML pages as it can, using a JSON interface. Wow! That would be fantastic! You need to build Fossil with the --json option for that to be enabled, [...] I'm afraid that recompiling is a bit beyond me... This would be such a MAJOR feature! Please tell me that it's close to final... Being able to access Fossil repo data via JSON could be used not only to create new web interfaces, but also to create platform-specific GUIs using RAD tools like 'LiveCode (http://livecode.com). Wow!!! Once again, many thanks for the information, and for welcoming me into the Fossil community. My pleasure. This is what i do for fun when i'm not in the mood to code ;). You're a great ambassador ;-) Kindest regards, -- Igor Couto Sydney, Australia signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
Ah, I see your points: On 22 May 2014, at 2:49 am, Stephan Beal sgb...@googlemail.com wrote: On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 6:39 PM, Igor de Oliveira Couto i...@semperuna.com wrote: Preference files can be named anything, but should NOT be 'dot-files' (as these are normally kept invisible by the system). In fact, that's the reason it starts with a dot - users should NOT be touching that file directly. It's for fossil's internal use. The entire '~/library/' directory is hidden from the user in OS X. The user knows they should not touch anything that is kept there. Anything that is in their personal home directory, however, is fair game, and should not be hidden. That's just a different philosophy to linux. - preferences for a single user should be stored in ~/library/preferences/ - preferences for all users in the machine should be stored in /library/preferences/ And if the dir structure doesn't exist, fossil has to go creating it, etc. We know the home dir exists, which makes it easy. Ideal? No, but easy. That structure is *absolutely guaranteed* to exist, as it is necessary for the way the System works. The way Apple structures their hard drive and sub-divides the directories has changed very little since the first release of OS X. Mac users tend to frown at apps that create invisible folders in their home directory. A friend of mine downloaded the Atom text editor recently released by the GitHub folks, and installed it on his Mac - just to quickly uninstal it, once he found out it wrote one (or two) invisible config files to his home directory... We all have our quirks. One of mine is that i refuse to come into physical contact with an Apple product of any sort, do not provide any tech support of any kind for Apple products, nor do i allow Apple products in my flat. (Why i do that is not relevant here, i'm just pointing out that we are all pedantic about something or other.) i'll admit to having uninstalled apps which have violated my sense of propriety, but an extra file in my home dir is not (because of the Unix history behind it) one of those proprieties. Historical momentum wins here, i think, and Unix has -lots- of historical momentum. I totally understand it. I must admit, I am the exact *opposite* to you: I worked for many years as a Graphic Designer, using Apple equipment exclusively - and loved it. I became Design teacher, then an Apple trainer. Then I opened an Apple Reseller shop in Sydney, and worked for many years doing training and support of Mac clients and networks. In my family we run 3 businesses, and all of them are totally Mac-based. I am surrounded by iPhones and iPads, and I have to admit: I love my Apple gadgets. I do have an irrational hatred of all things Windows, and also a great respect and admiration for all things Linux - and have been known to download and try out the occasional release of Ubuntu. I was also a supporter of BeOS when it came out, and was very happy to hear of 'Haiku'... :-) I envy programmers like you who talk about hacking directly at C code, as if you were just editing a web page. That is a bit beyond my capabilities, but I am very glad there are people like you who use your superpowers for the benefit of us, mere mortals! ;-) It's a learned behaviour - when i got back into C in 2007 (after a 12 year hiatus), i felt much the same way as you express now. Since then, C has replaced C++ as my native language. Just a shame that all job offers in recent history have been for Java work :/. I learned C many years ago, but never used it much. Lately, I have been very focused on html+css+javascript, as it's an integral part of a new business venture - and I'm also learning (and enjoying very much) LiveCode. The LiveCode community, like this one, is very friendly and welcoming, and full of unix enthusiasts - I think you'd like it there ;-) I look forward to learning much from you! Kindest regards, -- Igor Couto Sydney, Australia signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Fossil Web Interface - Separation of HTML from Code
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Igor de Oliveira Couto i...@semperuna.comwrote: Where can I find some of these? - I had a quick look through the repositories at 'Chisel', but found only 3 skins there. i think you'll either need to search the list archives or wait until someone who's created one responds in this thread ;). i recently ported many of my repos to a skin someone posted here based very roughly on the Google Code look/feel. ou might also find the JSON API useful, as it basically emulates as many of the CLI/HTML pages as it can, using a JSON interface. Wow! That would be fantastic! Suggestions for API improvements are welcomed. e.g. i have never been happy with the /json/dir output, but so far no better suggestions and no pressing need for it. You need to build Fossil with the --json option for that to be enabled, [...] I'm afraid that recompiling is a bit beyond me... :( This would be such a MAJOR feature! Please tell me that it's close to final... Nothing around here is every final, with the possible exception of Richard's decisions ;)! (He's our Benevolent Dictator, so to say.) The JSON API doesn't go through much change because it basically does everything i need it to do and i'm primarily the one who hacks on it. It is not enabled in the trunk by default, and won't be, until/unless i get around to writing full test suites for it (including fuzzy input tests, i.e. how well does it avoid being compromised by bots), and that (i must admit) is way down my list of TODOs. Patches/support are of course welcomed! Being able to access Fossil repo data via JSON could be used not only to create new web interfaces, but also to create platform-specific GUIs using RAD tools like 'LiveCode (http://livecode.com). Wow!!! The story goes something like this: in September of 2011 Richard was here in Munich, Germany on business and we met up for lunch. The conversation started something like this: drh: What does fossil need next? me (without hesitation!): A library API. We very quickly agreed that it would require what someone else later appropriately dubbed a herculean effort, basically not feasible without a complete rewrite, and so i went with the next best thing: me: a JSON API (which is basically just a library with very lazy (potentially remote) linkage) to which Richard quickly gave the green light. If you look at the activity reports, you'll see a huge bulge between September and November of 2011: http://www.fossil-scm.org/index.html/reports?view=bymonthuser=stephantype=ci That was the initial bits of the JSON API. libfossil, closely related, was born last summer, after some rather large bikeshedding sessions and getting Richard's blessing for the name libfossil. While i have been contributing to fossil since 2008, until libfossil was started i really had very little clue about how fossil works internally. It's been tremendous learning experience, full of OMG! moments. Once again, many thanks for the information, and for welcoming me into the Fossil community. My pleasure. This is what i do for fun when i'm not in the mood to code ;). You're a great ambassador ;-) You caught me on a good day ;), and i'm kinda partial to the Australian dialect ;). -- - stephan beal http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/ http://gplus.to/sgbeal Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do. -- Bigby Wolf ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Stephan Beal sgb...@googlemail.com wrote: And if the dir structure doesn't exist, fossil has to go creating it, etc. We know the home dir exists, which makes it easy. Ideal? No, but easy. Indeed. That is why I'm likely going to simply not bother making any changes whatsoever to the Haiku port (which actually isn't even a port currently, since it compiles and works fine now thanks to folks like Stephan and Andy B. helping me out with that). I guess I could patch it to put the .fossil in a more appropriate directory, but I'm not sure if it's worth the effort, especially when there's files like .bash_profile that can exist in ~. Heck, usually I set up my SSH files in ~/.ssh, for that matter. I am guessing that Mac is a bit more strict about these kinds of things though. I try to be pragmatic when possible though and not make things difficult when there's no need to. We all have our quirks. One of mine is that i refuse to come into physical contact with an Apple product of any sort, do not provide any tech support of any kind for Apple products, nor do i allow Apple products in my flat. (Why i do that is not relevant here, i'm just pointing out that we are all pedantic about something or other.) Hmm, that kind of sounds like me, although I was strongly considering buying a Macbook Pro at one point before I got a similarly-spec'd PC laptop running Linux. :) i'll admit to having uninstalled apps which have violated my sense of propriety, but an extra file in my home dir is not (because of the Unix history behind it) one of those proprieties. Historical momentum wins here, i think, and Unix has -lots- of historical momentum. Indeed, I can agree with that pretty much. No argument from me here. If my home directory was littered with a ton of files I might care, but one file is no big deal. - joe ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
just to throw in my 2c regarding this (in my view: non-)problem: -- as a mac and linux/unix user I could not care less about dot-files materializing in my (mac-)home dir. it could be done differently but not better in any meaningful sense. -- while it is true that true mac applications are supposed to put config stuff in ~/Library/Preferences and/or `~/Library/Application Support' (the latter more probably would be right for `.fossil' if at all) it is of course perfectly common (at least for everybody who seriously is considering to use fossil on a mac) to install other Unix-related, terminal-based tools (editors like emacs and vi, e.g.) who of course put their resource files in the home dir as well. so as on any unix/linux system `.fossil' is just one of a whole bunch. -- overall I mostly believe it would be sort of wrong to move `.fossil' to some Mac-specific place. if it would happen so be it. but really I believe this is a non-issue. j. On Wed, 21 May 2014 19:17:57 +0200, Stephan Beal sgb...@googlemail.com wrote: On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:04 PM, Igor de Oliveira Couto i...@semperuna.comwrote: That structure is *absolutely guaranteed* to exist, as it is necessary for the way the System works. The way Apple structures their hard drive and sub-divides the directories has changed very little since the first release of OS X. LOL! And $HOME has not changed since... 1973? ;) Then I opened an Apple Reseller shop in Sydney, and worked for many years doing training and support of Mac clients and networks. In my family we run 3 businesses, and all of them are totally Mac-based. I am surrounded by iPhones and iPads, and I have to admit: I love my Apple gadgets. Everyone i know who uses them loves them... to an inexplicable degree. That's part of what scares me about them ;). I do have an irrational hatred of all things Windows, and also a great respect and admiration for all things Linux - and have been known to download and try out the occasional release of Ubuntu. I was also a supporter of BeOS when it came out, and was very happy to hear of 'Haiku'... :-) My Windows dislike is purely rational ;). They castrate the interface. i'm a power user, and Windows isn't for power users (especially if you've got no admin rights on the system). I learned C many years ago, but never used it much. Lately, I have been very focused on html+css+javascript, as it's an integral part of a new business venture - and I'm also learning (and enjoying very much) LiveCode. That's one of the target areas the JSON API and libfossil are aiming for, so i think you and i are gonna get along just great, despite our polar opposition in terms of OS choices ;). I look forward to learning much from you! Oh, i'm not the main teacher around here, i'm just one of the more vocal members. The others are off hacking while i'm avoiding it, playing the ambassador role instead for the time being ;). -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:43 PM, j. van den hoff veedeeh...@googlemail.comwrote: -- overall I mostly believe it would be sort of wrong to move `.fossil' to some Mac-specific place. if it would happen so be it. but really I believe this is a non-issue. Amen and +1 to that. :) If emacs put my config files anywhere other than ~/.emacs, i would be completely lost. -- - stephan beal http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/ http://gplus.to/sgbeal Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do. -- Bigby Wolf ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
On May 21, 2014 9:34 AM, Igor de Oliveira Couto i...@semperuna.com wrote: Dear Fossil Gurus, I'm a new user - have been using Fossil for just over a month now - and I'm loving it. One point that I found somewhat disappointing, is that Fossil creates a .fossil database in my home directory. I know that many applications in Linux/Unix store their preferences and settings in dot-files, in the user's home directory - ie., ~/.myapp. This, however, is a Linux standard, and does not translate to other platforms. I see many other people have commented already, but in reading the thread there was one point I never saw raised. In the Mac OS (pre OSX) you pretty much had to write apps specifically for a Mac. OSX however is really two different systems in one: the native Mac system with lots of guidelines om how things are to be done, and a fairly standard POSIX platform underneath that can run a huge number of programs without modification. In this world, fossil is just another app using the posix layer, behaving just as any other similar app would behave. It is a shame that Windows doesn't natively support something similar out of the box, but it's origins and life cycle have *never* coincided with posix. Even so, you don't have to write full blown gui apps on Windows, you just have to use a different API if you want to support console mode. And if you want to support Windows, you either do that or require your app to be built with something like cygwin (which many posix apps do require). OSX however threw away the older Mac history when it decided to go the route of an open source kernel with proprietary stuff on top. In any case, while I can see why one would want a program to give their native platfom more attention, in this case fossil is really just a posix app that can be built like almost any other and run on OSX because it supports those types of apps. SDR ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
BAH! How dare someone make my wordy points while I'm also making them! :) SDR ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Scott Robison sc...@casaderobison.comwrote: different systems in one: the native Mac system with lots of guidelines om how things are to be done, and a fairly standard POSIX platform underneath that can run a huge number of programs without modification. In this world, fossil is just another app using the posix layer, behaving just as any other similar app would behave. i will most certainly attempt to remember that point the next time this comes up. It reduces the argument form Mac vs Windows vs *nix to POSIX vs non-POSIX, which is not only simpler to grasp and argue around, but is geeky enough to scare away casual listeners ;). For those who don't know, POSIX == Portable Operating System Interface, a series of standards which specify APIs for various system-level services. _Some_ APIs are specified by the core C specifications (fossil only explicitly relies on C89), but POSIX basically starts off at the points where C leaves the details platform-defined. As Scott points out, MS has had a not-very-POSIX-friendly past: It is a shame that Windows doesn't natively support something similar out of the box, but it's origins and life cycle have *never* coincided with posix. -- - stephan beal http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/ http://gplus.to/sgbeal Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do. -- Bigby Wolf ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
Thus said Stephan Beal on Wed, 21 May 2014 18:49:21 +0200: i'll admit to having uninstalled apps which have violated my sense of propriety, but an extra file in my home dir is not (because of the Unix history behind it) one of those proprieties. Historical momentum wins here, i think, and Unix has -lots- of historical momentum. I might add that Apple decided to inherit all of Unix history when it used a Unix-like OS as it's base, including the fact that user-oriented configuration files go in $HOME/.dot-file :-) Andy -- TAI64 timestamp: 4000537ceb70 ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Stephan Beal sgb...@googlemail.comwrote: i will most certainly attempt to remember that point the next time this comes up. It reduces the argument form Mac vs Windows vs *nix to POSIX vs non-POSIX, which is not only simpler to grasp and argue around, but is geeky enough to scare away casual listeners ;). For those who don't know, POSIX == Portable Operating System Interface, a series of standards which specify APIs for various system-level services. _Some_ APIs are specified by the core C specifications (fossil only explicitly relies on C89), but POSIX basically starts off at the points where C leaves the details platform-defined. As Scott points out, MS has had a not-very-POSIX-friendly past: And to some extent, why should it (have a friendly POSIX history)? Mac OS (pre OS-X) had just as bad (I would say worse, actually) POSIX history. The first POSIX standard was released in 1988, and the standardization efforts began around 1985 (according to the Wikipedia article). Both Windows Mac OS pre-date POSIX. Prior to that, there were as many operating system standards as there were brands and models of computers (or very nearly so). 1988 was the first time there existed an actual standard for a minimum set of interfaces that could be used portably between different systems that adhered to the standard. Even then, it is a *minimum* set of standards that a portable application could be written to target, but it is not a maximum set of interfaces. I would say that MSDOS came closer to supporting something that could be called Linux out of the box than Mac OS 9 earlier ever did. It was still a million miles away, so closer isn't saying much, but closer nonetheless, since it actually supported something resembling a terminal window and command line interface and command line oriented tools and Mac OS did not out of the box. OS-X was a brilliant move for them to make (which of course evolved from Apple's acquisition of Next and it's intellectual property). Use that, add shims to provide for backward compatibility (much as they did when they migrated from Motorola 68000 series chips to PowerPC chips), and viola! Something all your fans like that provides the power to move forward. Many people rail on Microsoft modern Windows for not being POSIX compliant, but really, what is the motivation? Early NT versions (early to mid 90s) *did* advertise POSIX compliance, though I don't think it ever shipped with the base system. At least not completely. There are system level APIs needed for POSIX, but there is also a whole host of userland utilities that must work a particular way to be truly POSIX. You could buy or download from Microsoft a bundle of software to bring it up to a full POSIX system if you wanted, but the history just wasn't there. All non-NT versions of Windows were effectively little more than an Xwindow server with a different API that ran on top of DOS. Because of the history, NT versions of Windows provided something that more closely resembled DOS than POSIX, while providing APIs for POSIX and OS/2 compatibility along side the native NT/Win32 APIs. Unix / POSIX has pretty successfully taken over the world of operating systems from virtually all other contenders (Amiga, BeOS, Commodore Kernal, etc, ad nauseum), with the single exception of Windows. Given the origins of Windows as a layer on top of DOS which was basically a CP/M knock off (which is fine, since Linux is really just a Unix knock off), it makes perfect sense why Microsoft doesn't feel the need to natively support POSIX. Mac OS-X supports it, but it would be disingenuous to say they advocate writing POSIX software; they want the whole world to be Mac centric. They just get POSIX support for free so they don't actively disable it. Yet. I say just give them time. ;) SDR ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 02:39:41AM +1000, Igor de Oliveira Couto wrote: snip OS X is actually quite simple: Preference files can be named anything, but should NOT be 'dot-files' (as these are normally kept invisible by the system). To avoid name-collision, Apple suggest developers use a reverse-dns notation to name their app support files - like com.mycompany.myapp.prefs. - preferences for a single user should be stored in ~/library/preferences/ - preferences for all users in the machine should be stored in /library/ preferences/ This is for Mac GUI applications. Fossil is a unix-like CLI application, just like: bash, ssh, vim, etc.. Actual CLI applications that are ship with Mac OSX use dot files in the home directory, so why fossil have to be different? -- Martin G. ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
[fossil-users] Jenkins plugin for Fossil
Hi Folks, I apologize if this appears to be a repost. I'm not a frequent mailing list user. I've uploaded a Jenkins Plugin for Fossil to my GitHub repository for those who might have an interest. It is Java source-only at this point and it's been a while since I've synced with the latest Jenkins source. However, it worked for my purposes and I know there are others who might want to try it. If you're handy with Java, you should be able to easily recompile it with Maven. Feel free to fork it or provide feedback on my account. Naturally, it comes without warranty of any kind. You can find the code at *https://github.com/rjperrella/jenkins-fossil-adapter https://github.com/rjperrella/jenkins-fossil-adapter* Enjoy! -Ron ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Stephan Beal sgb...@googlemail.com wrote: On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:04 PM, Igor de Oliveira Couto i...@semperuna.com wrote: That structure is *absolutely guaranteed* to exist, as it is necessary for the way the System works. The way Apple structures their hard drive and sub-divides the directories has changed very little since the first release of OS X. LOL! And $HOME has not changed since... 1973? ;) In Microsoft land, %HOME% became %HOMEPATH% at some point, and the under lying home directory location has changed a few times as well. And how %APPDATA% is used. I wish I didn't have deal with Microsoft, but at work, we have a mixed environment with most people using Microsoft. ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] Location of .fossil Database
On 2014-05-21 12:49, Stephan Beal wrote: We all have our quirks. One of mine is that i refuse to come into physical contact with an Apple product of any sort, do not provide any tech support of any kind for Apple products, nor do i allow Apple products in my flat. (Why i do that is not relevant here, i'm just pointing out that we are all pedantic about something or other.) I'm the same way about magazine disconnector safeties. :) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) ___ fossil-users mailing list fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
