Re: Could a few influential GNOME develoers join gnu-prog-disc...@gnu.org?
Le 18/01/2012 03:36, Richard Stallman a écrit : (I think that person was right: learning one English word `Desktop' is not much of a burden, and on the other hand, this feature can cause a real nuisance for users that use multiple locales.) If I choose my session in ..., I expect each and every single word to be in ... with a correct spelling! I really don't like that eh, just one English word to learn, deal with it condescending tone. Snark on #gnome-hackers ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Could a few influential GNOME develoers join gnu-prog-disc...@gnu.org?
2012/1/18 Julien Puydt julien.pu...@laposte.net: Le 18/01/2012 03:36, Richard Stallman a écrit : (I think that person was right: learning one English word `Desktop' is not much of a burden, and on the other hand, this feature can cause a real nuisance for users that use multiple locales.) If I choose my session in ..., I expect each and every single word to be in ... with a correct spelling! I really don't like that eh, just one English word to learn, deal with it condescending tone. Not to mention that for some people that could very well mean “just one new alphabet to learn”. The world does not consist of just the two Americas. -- Patryk Zawadzki I solve problems. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Could a few influential GNOME develoers join gnu-prog-disc...@gnu.org?
On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 12:30 +0100, Julien Puydt wrote: Le 18/01/2012 03:36, Richard Stallman a écrit : (I think that person was right: learning one English word `Desktop' is not much of a burden, and on the other hand, this feature can cause a real nuisance for users that use multiple locales.) If I choose my session in ..., I expect each and every single word to be in ... with a correct spelling! I really don't like that eh, just one English word to learn, deal with it condescending tone. Snark on #gnome-hackers +1. I changed locale to English because I used a lot of testing programs and I was annoyed when the programs was half-translated (say - Do you want to save? Tak/Nie/Anuluj - the buttons were translated because they used standard GTK+ API but not the message). However probably I knew English sufficiently to be able to use computer localised in such way and many people might not know it sufficiently well. It might affect especially the older[1] people who are not exactly computer literate and they have already problems using computers AND don't know English (even though they may still be well-educated and may know several foreign languages - English was just not as important when they were in schools in that region of world). I would say it is part of accessibility. Regards [1] The exact boundary varies from country to country etc. It might happen that older people, as used in this sentence, are 20-years-old. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Could a few influential GNOME develoers join gnu-prog-disc...@gnu.org?
On Tue, 2012-01-17 at 21:36 -0500, Richard Stallman wrote: Can't these be brought up on proper GNOME lists then? Especially seeing as there is no public archive for your GNU list. We use this list for private discussions about GNU in general. Sometimes the issues relate to GNOME, but that doesn't mean they're specifically about GNOME. It would be useful for some GNOME developers with responsibility and influence to be included. In the middle of a broader discussion about internationalization, not specifically about GNOME, someone mentioned this: Another problem I stumbled upon is the new habit of software like Gnome and/or desktop handlers to use localized names for directories such as ~/Desktop. This is a pure nuisance, depending on my locale ~/Desktop becomes ~/Bureau or ~/Labortablo. A GNOME developer in the list would have seen this and could have responded, raises the issue in the appropriate GNOME list, or whatever is TRT. It isn't feasible for me, and I don't know who to ask. (I think that person was right: learning one English word `Desktop' is not much of a burden, and on the other hand, this feature can cause a real nuisance for users that use multiple locales.) In addition with everything that is wrong with this comment (which has already been mentioned by the other replies in this thread), I'll mention that this particular behaviour is specified: http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/xdg-user-dirs If there are problems with this approach, they should be raised on the XDG mailing-list, not on a private list. /Bastien, subscribed to more than enough mailing-lists ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Could a few influential GNOME develoers join gnu-prog-disc...@gnu.org?
Hi! A GNOME developer in the list would have seen this and could have responded, raises the issue in the appropriate GNOME list, or whatever is TRT. It isn't feasible for me, and I don't know who to ask. No, that's not how the world works! The person asking should have brought it up on a GNOME (or in this case xdg) mailing list. This is how things work - you complain to the people responsible instead of waiting for someone to magically speak up. Regards, Johannes btw, I think the behaviour is correct and these things should be translated... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Could a few influential GNOME develoers join gnu-prog-disc...@gnu.org?
On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 18:25 +0100, Johannes Schmid wrote: Hi! A GNOME developer in the list would have seen this and could have responded, raises the issue in the appropriate GNOME list, or whatever is TRT. It isn't feasible for me, and I don't know who to ask. No, that's not how the world works! The person asking should have brought it up on a GNOME (or in this case xdg) mailing list. This is how things work - you complain to the people responsible instead of waiting for someone to magically speak up. To me it seems that we're ignoring this: GNOME is proud to be a part of the GNU Project. (from gnome.org/about). So by extension, a GNU mailing list is the perfect place to discuss matters that also affect GNOME. The rejective attitude towards joining a GNU mailing list that I see here should then result in GNOME leaving the GNU project. Then above statement can be removed from the website. I know this is an old flamebait, but if no one here who is still active (influential) in GNOME is openly pro-GNU, then it's time to openly admit that. regards, Michael ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Could a few influential GNOME develoers join gnu-prog-disc...@gnu.org?
On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 19:32 +0100, Michael Hasselmann wrote: On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 18:25 +0100, Johannes Schmid wrote: Hi! A GNOME developer in the list would have seen this and could have responded, raises the issue in the appropriate GNOME list, or whatever is TRT. It isn't feasible for me, and I don't know who to ask. No, that's not how the world works! The person asking should have brought it up on a GNOME (or in this case xdg) mailing list. This is how things work - you complain to the people responsible instead of waiting for someone to magically speak up. To me it seems that we're ignoring this: GNOME is proud to be a part of the GNU Project. (from gnome.org/about). So by extension, a GNU mailing list is the perfect place to discuss matters that also affect GNOME. The rejective attitude towards joining a GNU mailing list that I see here should then result in GNOME leaving the GNU project. Then above statement can be removed from the website. I know this is an old flamebait, but if no one here who is still active (influential) in GNOME is openly pro-GNU, then it's time to openly admit that. I'm pro-GNU. I'm anti-yet-another-mailing-list. I don't mind joining a list if it is the natural place to discuss specific collaboration issues. But in the one example given, the place to discuss it is xdg-list, and possibly desktop-devel-list. Maybe there are discussions that GNOME developers ought to be a part of. But without public list archives, who knows? -- Shaun ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Could a few influential GNOME developers join gnu-prog-disc...@gnu.org?
So, I assume that although it was a mail to discuss things about accessibility, on GNU mailing list, for some reason, gnu-prog-disc...@gnu.org was more suitable that gnu-accessibility. What was that reason? I don't remember that particular message, but here are some possibilities that occur to me: * Something about accessibility came up in the middle of a discussion on gnu-prog-discuss about something else. * Someone who is on gnu-prog-discuss wanted to raise an issue concerning accessibility, and he isn't on gnu-accessibility, and maybe doesn't know it exists. * Someone thought of the accessibility issue during a discussion on gnu-prog-discuss, and didn't ask himself What other GNU mailing lists are there and which one is the best one for this topic, but simply raised it on gnu-prog-discuss straightaway. * Someone thought carefully about which list to use, and judged that gnu-prog-discuss was best for some reason I don't know. Not knowing the reason, I won't venture to say I agree or disagree. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Could a few influential GNOME develoers join gnu-prog-disc...@gnu.org?
I really don't like that eh, just one English word to learn, deal with it condescending tone. That tone was not in my message -- it comes from you, not me. It is normal for people to disagree on a technical question, so you must not make personal attacks on people for stating technical views you disagree with. You can state your arguments about the issue without attacking them. I mentioned that issue as an example -- it shows how a GNU maintainer who uses non-English locales was talking about internationalization and GNU, and GNOME came up in the discussion. I'm happy to say that some respected and influential GNOME developers have decided to subscribe to gnu-misc-discuss, and participate in discussions of GNOME, and also in discussions about other parts of the GNU system. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Could a few influential GNOME develoers join gnu-prog-disc...@gnu.org?
(I think that person was right: learning one English word `Desktop' is not much of a burden, and on the other hand, this feature can cause a real nuisance for users that use multiple locales.) Not to mention that for some people that could very well mean “just one new alphabet to learn”. In theory, it could. In practice, I think that will be rare, because many aspects of modern global culture push people everywhere to learn the Roman alphabet. Nonetheless, it is a valid point. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Could a few influential GNOME develoers join gnu-prog-disc...@gnu.org?
mention that this particular behaviour is specified: http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/xdg-user-dirs They can recommend, but they cannot specify anything for us. In the GNU Project we pay attention to standards, and usually we follow them, but not automatically or necessarily. For instance, GNU df and du give sizes in k by default, not in 512-byte blocks as POSIX specifies. Likewise, GCC violates the ISO C spec if you don't use --pedantic. The standards made by POSIX, ISO and freedesktop.org are suggestions. They carry some weight because users typically appreciate compatibility with standards. But that's not the only thing users appreciate, so a standard is not a command for us to obey. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Could a few influential GNOME develoers join gnu-prog-disc...@gnu.org?
On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 17:32 -0500, Richard Stallman wrote: mention that this particular behaviour is specified: http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/xdg-user-dirs They can recommend, but they cannot specify anything for us. In the GNU Project we pay attention to standards, and usually we follow them, but not automatically or necessarily. For instance, GNU df and du give sizes in k by default, not in 512-byte blocks as POSIX specifies. Likewise, GCC violates the ISO C spec if you don't use --pedantic. The standards made by POSIX, ISO and freedesktop.org are suggestions. They carry some weight because users typically appreciate compatibility with standards. But that's not the only thing users appreciate, so a standard is not a command for us to obey. I don't think Bastien was implying that we have to follow this behavior simply because it's specified somewhere. In fact, the front page of freedesktop.org is very clear that it is not a standards organization. Specification on freedesktop.org aren't things we have to follow. Rather, they are formal write-ups of things we've decided to do. The way the comment was presented (and granted, we're missing context here) was as if this behavior was a bug. Bastien was saying it's intentional behavior, and that we've even written down how it's supposed to work. -- Shaun ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Could a few influential GNOME develoers join gnu-prog-disc...@gnu.org?
On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 17:32 -0500, Richard Stallman wrote: [...] The standards made by POSIX, ISO and freedesktop.org are suggestions. They carry some weight because users typically appreciate compatibility with standards. But that's not the only thing users appreciate, so a standard is not a command for us to obey. In some cases and environments, standards may also be mandated by governments and legal systems, or by contracts, and then do need to be followed with especial care. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Could a few influential GNOME develoers join gnu-prog-disc...@gnu.org?
A GNOME developer in the list would have seen this and could have responded, raises the issue in the appropriate GNOME list, or whatever is TRT. It isn't feasible for me, and I don't know who to ask. No, that's not how the world works! That's how gnu-prog-discuss works. We have people on the list involved in many GNU packages, and they discuss lots of issues. When someone mentions what is clearly a bug, we urge him to file a bug report. But a person who says I find feature X inconvenient may not feel that qualifies as a bug, and he may hesitate to start a discussion in a list he is not on. And he may not even know what list to use. In general, free software projects should reach out for feedback. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
