Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-10-10 Thread Nuritzi Sanchez 
Hi Lefty,

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Lefty  wrote:

> My constructive criticism is that you not take your code of conduct
> guidance from people who are unrepentant poster children for the need for a
> code of conduct.
>
> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/EMACS_virgins_joke
>

We're all here to learn from the past. Since drafting a CoC can become an
emotionally charged subject very quickly, we need to make sure not to make
things personal.

I appreciate your sensitivity to a past issue that caused a lot of
controversy, so thanks for sending that link. It's a great example for us
to consider when drafting the CoC, so that we dissect the issue and think
about how we might craft a policy that can help us avoid similar fall outs
in the future.

Both have been added to our resource list
. Thanks again!



> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:32 AM, nurit...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Hi Lefty,
>
> We want to keep this productive and constructive. Please feel free to
> email us any specific language that you think we should stay away from and
> why, or any resources you think are a good example of a CoC.
>
> Remember, we want both examples of CoCs that you don't think work, and
> ones you think do. The important part is to explain why.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Best,
> Nuritzi
>
> ..
>
> *Nuritzi Sanchez*  |  +1. <+1.650.218.7388>650.218.7388 <+1.650.218.7388>
>  |  Endless 
>
> On Sep 14, 2016, at 1:18 PM, Lefty  wrote:
>
> I'm unconvinced that people should be taking their conduct tips from
> "Beloved Saint IGNUtious" and the Shrine of the EMACS Virgins..,
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Sep 14, 2016, at 10:35 AM, Richard Stallman  wrote:
>
>
> Here's a code that I helped write:
>
> http://abstractions.io/policies/#code-of-conduct .
>
>
> I tried to avoid vague, subjective rules
>
> that could be interpreted in many ways.
>
>
> --
>
> Dr Richard Stallman
>
> President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
>
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
>
> Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.
>
>
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>


-- 


.

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[image: --]

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[image: https://]about.me/nuritzi

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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-10-10 Thread nuritzis 

> On Sep 14, 2016, at 10:35 AM, Richard Stallman  wrote:
> 
> Here's a code that I helped write:
> http://abstractions.io/policies/#code-of-conduct .
> 
> I tried to avoid vague, subjective rules
> that could be interpreted in many ways.

Thanks, Richard! Let us know if you have any other resources to consider. 

Best, 
Nuritzi


> 
> -- 
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> President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
> Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.
> 
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-10-10 Thread nuritzis 
Hi Lefty,

We want to keep this productive and constructive. Please feel free to email us 
any specific language that you think we should stay away from and why, or any 
resources you think are a good example of a CoC. 

Remember, we want both examples of CoCs that you don't think work, and ones you 
think do. The important part is to explain why.

Thanks!

Best,
Nuritzi

..

Nuritzi Sanchez  |  +1.650.218.7388 |  Endless 

> On Sep 14, 2016, at 1:18 PM, Lefty  wrote:
> 
> I'm unconvinced that people should be taking their conduct tips from "Beloved 
> Saint IGNUtious" and the Shrine of the EMACS Virgins..,
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Sep 14, 2016, at 10:35 AM, Richard Stallman  wrote:
>> 
>> Here's a code that I helped write:
>> http://abstractions.io/policies/#code-of-conduct .
>> 
>> I tried to avoid vague, subjective rules
>> that could be interpreted in many ways.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Dr Richard Stallman
>> President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
>> Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
>> Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.
>> 
>> ___
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>> foundation-list@gnome.org
>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
> 
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-17 Thread James 
On Sat, Sep 17, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Richard Stallman  wrote:
> My practical question is, which of those lists _do his messages
> actually get through to_?
>
> I should send my reactions to the lists that his messages
> actually reach, and not to those his messages do not reach.

I would respectfully recommend to treat his email address as SPAM when
his messages reach you, since based on previous comments and postings
I've seen from him, he's obviously just a troll and doesn't need to be
fed.

Good luck!
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-17 Thread Richard Stallman 
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I don't know, but maybe he's just not subscribed. If so, his posts
  > won't appear until approved by a moderator.

My practical question is, which of those lists _do his messages
actually get through to_?

I should send my reactions to the lists that his messages
actually reach, and not to those his messages do not reach.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.

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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-17 Thread Olav Vitters 
On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 08:29:50PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote:
> We should judge proposals based on what they say and their effects,
> not based on personalities.

FYI: Those messages were moderated (IIRC Lefty is), there's nobody
really actively looking at moderated emails (various reasons). Once
something is in a moderation queue please ensure that your
comment/remark is worthy to be let through. 

-- 
Regards,
Olav
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-16 Thread Michael Catanzaro 
On Fri, 2016-09-16 at 20:33 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote:
> Ironically, I was serving as his conduit into the list(s).
> I will certainly stop.
> 
> Which of these lists is he banned from?  Both?

I don't know, but maybe he's just not subscribed. If so, his posts
won't appear until approved by a moderator.

Michael
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-16 Thread Richard Stallman 
  > My guess is that Lefty is replying publicly, that his posts are not
  > being allowed through the list for some reason, and that Richard
  > understandably does not realize nobody else can see the posts he is
  > replying to.

Ironically, I was serving as his conduit into the list(s).
I will certainly stop.

Which of these lists is he banned from?  Both?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.

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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-16 Thread Jens Georg 

> I do not understand.  What I am doing is sending the reply to a
> message to the same lists that the other message went to.  I do that
> because these messages attack me and I deserve a chance to respond.

I assumed that you were accidently moving a conversation from the
private ML to the public one, missing the part you were replying to.

Apparently there is a moderation hickup, so sorry about that.
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-16 Thread Nuritzi Sanchez 
On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 7:40 AM, Richard Stallman  wrote:

>   > Can you please stop leaking half a conversation from a private mailing
>   > list to a public one? Thank you.
>
> I do not understand.  What I am doing is sending the reply to a
> message to the same lists that the other message went to.  I do that
> because these messages attack me and I deserve a chance to respond.
>
> What is it about this that is wrong?
> Would you please spell out concretely what actions you are criticizing?
> What, concretely, are you asking me to do instead?
>

Hi Richard, you're not doing anything wrong. I think the problem is with
the moderation of the emails. Lefty's emails may not all be coming in, so
it's hard to know if everyone has seen the entire conversation unfold. I'm
not the foundation-list moderator, so I'm basing my response on Shaun's
last email.

*@Everyone *- The Foundation list does not need to know the entire
conversation going on. It's not our business and seems to be personal
between two members. I agree that we should protect members from
harassment.

*@Richard* and *@Lefty*, if either of you feels like you are being
personally harassed, please send an email to
coc-working-group-l...@gnome.org describing the full concern and we'll try
to help. The entire Foundation list no longer needs to be involved in the
threads you guys are sending as it has devloved from being productive and
has become more personal. Let's try to have a constructive conversation
instead of one full of personal attacks.

I'd like to raise the point that we do not have an organizational CoC with
a strong enforcement policy. This is something the CoC Working Group is
hoping to propose as a Phase II of this project. This would help with what
James is talking about.

It takes each and every one of us to promote a safe and welcoming space. We
hope that you'll help us remain productive through this CoC drafting
process and welcome more resources and examples for us all to learn from.



>
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-16 Thread Richard Stallman 
  > Can you please stop leaking half a conversation from a private mailing 
  > list to a public one? Thank you.

I do not understand.  What I am doing is sending the reply to a
message to the same lists that the other message went to.  I do that
because these messages attack me and I deserve a chance to respond.

What is it about this that is wrong?
Would you please spell out concretely what actions you are criticizing?
What, concretely, are you asking me to do instead?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.

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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-16 Thread Shaun McCance 
On Fri, 2016-09-16 at 07:04 +0200, Jens Georg wrote:
> Can you please stop leaking half a conversation from a private
> mailing 
> list to a public one? Thank you.

In Richard's defense, I don't believe the emails he's replying to are
intended to be private. In the mailing list archives, there are a
number of "Message not available" entries:

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2016-September/thread.h
tml

My guess is that Lefty is replying publicly, that his posts are not
being allowed through the list for some reason, and that Richard
understandably does not realize nobody else can see the posts he is
replying to.

> > 
> > > 
> > > My constructive criticism is that you not take your code of
> >   > conduct guidance from people who are unrepentant poster
> > children
> >   > for the need for a code of conduct.
> > 
> > He's exaggerating about me, but that's the smaller error.  His
> > fundamental error is in the general premise that he wants us to
> > accept
> > without examination: that we should judge proposals based on
> > opinions
> > about the people who worked on them.
> > 
> > We should judge proposals based on what they say and their effects,
> > not based on personalities.
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-16 Thread James 
On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 3:34 AM, Jens Georg  wrote:
>>
>> I do agree that seeing only part of the conversation isn't
>> particularly helpful,
>
>
> Sorry for not making this clear, that was the point I was trying to make
> here. Nothing else.

Indeed, now an apology from me, if it wasn't clear that I wasn't
trying to interject against you, but rather both:
1) agree with your comment
2) ask if someone is looking into helping deal with the alleged harassment.

I still haven't heard anything about (2) but hope that it is resolved soon.
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-16 Thread Jens Georg 


I do agree that seeing only part of the conversation isn't
particularly helpful,


Sorry for not making this clear, that was the point I was trying to make 
here. Nothing else.

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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-16 Thread James 
On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 1:04 AM, Jens Georg  wrote:
> Can you please stop leaking half a conversation from a private mailing list
> to a public one? Thank you.

I have to interject here. What it sounds like is that one foundation
list member (doesn't matter who it is) is getting harassed (possibly
off-list to some degree) by another person. I would hope that the
foundation can take steps to decide if this alleged intimidation is
happening or not, and if so, to help remedy the situation.

I do agree that seeing only part of the conversation isn't
particularly helpful, but hopefully someone on the foundation board
can ensure that this can be made at least somewhat of a safe and
welcome space.

Thanks
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-15 Thread Jens Georg 
Can you please stop leaking half a conversation from a private mailing 
list to a public one? Thank you.



My constructive criticism is that you not take your code of

  > conduct guidance from people who are unrepentant poster children
  > for the need for a code of conduct.

He's exaggerating about me, but that's the smaller error.  His
fundamental error is in the general premise that he wants us to accept
without examination: that we should judge proposals based on opinions
about the people who worked on them.

We should judge proposals based on what they say and their effects,
not based on personalities.

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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-15 Thread Richard Stallman 
  > My constructive criticism is that you not take your code of
  > conduct guidance from people who are unrepentant poster children
  > for the need for a code of conduct.

He's exaggerating about me, but that's the smaller error.  His
fundamental error is in the general premise that he wants us to accept
without examination: that we should judge proposals based on opinions
about the people who worked on them.

We should judge proposals based on what they say and their effects,
not based on personalities.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.

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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-15 Thread Richard Stallman 
"Lefty" has resumed his old practice of attacking anything that is
associated with me, mainly as a way of associating my name with
a cloud of vague disapproval.

-- 
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Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-14 Thread Richard Stallman 
Here's a code that I helped write:
http://abstractions.io/policies/#code-of-conduct .

I tried to avoid vague, subjective rules
that could be interpreted in many ways.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.

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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-13 Thread Nuritzi Sanchez 
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 12:46 PM, Liam R. E. Quin  wrote:

> On Mon, 2016-09-12 at 12:07 -0700, Nuritzi Sanchez wrote:
> >  proposing to draw up a standard code of conduct for GNOME events.
>
> You could maybe start with the libregraphicsmeeting.org policy,
> http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/lgm/public-documentation/code-of-conduc
> t/


Awesome, thanks, Liam! Just added it to our list of resources on:
https://wiki.gnome.org/eventCoCresources


-- 


.

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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-13 Thread Liam R. E. Quin 
On Mon, 2016-09-12 at 12:07 -0700, Nuritzi Sanchez wrote:
>  proposing to draw up a standard code of conduct for GNOME events.

You could maybe start with the libregraphicsmeeting.org policy,
http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/lgm/public-documentation/code-of-conduc
t/

Liam

-- 
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W3C XML Activity lead
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Re: Code of Conduct Adoption Process

2016-09-13 Thread Luis Villa 
This is terrific to see. I'm sorry that I probably don't have time to help
out much, but look forward to the final result.

Luis

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 12:49 PM Nuritzi Sanchez <
nurit...@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:

> Dear Foundation Members,
>
> GNOME has never had a standard code of conduct for events. This has
> historically placed a burden on GUADEC organizers in particular, as they
> have had to draft and take responsibility for a code of conduct every year.
>
> This GUADEC, a group of us formed a working group to try and resolve
> this, by proposing to draw up a standard code of conduct for GNOME events.
> This effort has been endorsed by the Foundation Board of Directors and we
> are now in the process of researching codes of conduct to inform the one we
> will propose.
>
> *I'm writing to see if anyone else is interested in joining the Code of
> Conduct working group* and to give Foundation members information about
> how they can participate in the process.
>
> We will be meeting regularly (every other week) to push this project
> forward so that we prepare it in time for the 2017 GUADEC committee to
> consider, and in time to make it available during the 2018 GUADEC bid
> process. The Code of Conduct for events will be a phase one project for
> the working group, and we plan to work on the Code of Conduct for the GNOME
> community as a phase two project.
>
> The committee will be doing the legwork of researching and proposing the
> Code of Conduct, but Foundation members will have opportunities to give
> feedback, and ultimately the Board will vote on the proposal. Below, you
> can find more information on the proposal process itself. We've tried to
> make it an analytical process since it can otherwise be an emotionally
> charged subject.
>
> *If you are interested in the group's progress, but don't want to commit
> to joining the group*, you can stay updated on our progress by following
> the meeting minutes and other materials posted at
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Diversity/CoCWorkingGroup/
>
> *At this time, we encourage you to email coc-working-group-l...@gnome.org
> *, or any of the committee members
> privately, with any of the following you'd like us to consider:
>
>- Code of Conduct resources
>- Details of incidents you have observed or been involved in, and
>which are relevant
>- Other specific feedback regarding codes of conduct
>
> coc-working-group-l...@gnome.org is a private mailing list for members of
>  the code of conduct working. Alternatively, you can share your feedback
> with any working group member(s) privately, and they will provide an
> anonymized summary to the working group. You can provide further
> instructions to them on how you want your feedback to be shared.
> Information shared with the working group might be shared anonymously with
> the Board and the community unless otherwise specified (e.g. as not to be
> shared, or as ok to be shared with personal identification by all affected
> parties).
>
> You can also email us if you'd just like to learn more, or talk to us on
> IRC at #diversity.
>
> Thank you in advance!
>
> Sincerely,
> Nuritzi
>
>
>
> Code of Conduct for Events
>
> Overview
>
> *Why is this important? *
> Having a code of conduct is an essential part of holding conferences, and
> is often a sponsorship requirement. It is also important for GNOME's health
> and longevity as it will ensure that the project is welcoming and inclusive
> for both current and prospective GNOME members. While GNOME is generally
> a friendly and welcoming place (yay!), there has been a small number of
> incidents over the years where a Code of Conduct has, or should have,
> helped the community.
>
> Each year, organizing groups had to draft their own Code of Conduct for
> their event and there has often been disagreement that surrounded the
> adoption of a Code of Conduct for an event. Having a standard event Code of
> Conduct will remove work from the event organizers and uncertaintly for the
> community members for what to expect at the event. It will also make it
> easier to support event organizers, through standard processes and 
> theestablishment
> of a dedicated support team for Code of Conduct issues.
>
> We want to make sure there is a consistent standard for the GNOME
> community across the globe. As such, the Code of Conduct will need to
> highlight areas that will change across geographic locations. We also
> recognize that we need to better define what a "GNOME event" is and when
> organizers will be expected to use the standard Code of Conduct.
>
> *Our** Plan*
> We have assembled a Code of Conduct Working Group to gather feedback among
> community members and propose a standard event Code of Conduct. The details
> for our proposal process are below. Once the standard Code of Conduct is
> approved, this team will also provide ongoing support to event organizers
> with its enforcement.
>
> The Board has already