Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Alberto Ruiz]

I've managed to make some room to attend the hackfest, count me in, I'm
adding myself to the wiki.

2016-01-10 18:55 GMT+00:00 Zeeshan Ali (Khattak) :

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 6:28 AM, Richard Stallman  wrote:
> > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> >
> > Jitsi works fine for meetings.  All each participant needs is
> > to visit a given URL; it could hardly be easier.
>
> FWIW, I just tested this here with help from Lasse Schuirmann and and
> Jakub Steiner. For me and Lasse, it worked like a charm, out of the
> box (actually better first time experience than with Google hangout
> since you are not asked to download/install some packages). However,
> Jakub had some issues getting video to work and then some problem with
> mic as well but IIUC, it was to do with his special hardware not being
> properly supported by drivers.
>
> > I thought we were looking for one-way streaming to a lot of people,
> > not for a meeting.  But I could have misunderstood that.
>
> It's a hackfest, so while the primary objective is one-way
> communication, it would be very much desirable IMO for remote
> participants to be able to talk with us.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Zeeshan Ali (Khattak)
> 
> Befriend GNOME: http://www.gnome.org/friends/
> ___
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>



-- 
Cheers,
Alberto Ruiz
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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Zeeshan Ali (Khattak)]

Hi,

On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 6:28 AM, Richard Stallman  wrote:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> Jitsi works fine for meetings.  All each participant needs is
> to visit a given URL; it could hardly be easier.

FWIW, I just tested this here with help from Lasse Schuirmann and and
Jakub Steiner. For me and Lasse, it worked like a charm, out of the
box (actually better first time experience than with Google hangout
since you are not asked to download/install some packages). However,
Jakub had some issues getting video to work and then some problem with
mic as well but IIUC, it was to do with his special hardware not being
properly supported by drivers.

> I thought we were looking for one-way streaming to a lot of people,
> not for a meeting.  But I could have misunderstood that.

It's a hackfest, so while the primary objective is one-way
communication, it would be very much desirable IMO for remote
participants to be able to talk with us.

-- 
Regards,

Zeeshan Ali (Khattak)

Befriend GNOME: http://www.gnome.org/friends/
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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Philip Chimento]

On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 5:49 PM, Christian Hergert 
wrote:

> On 12/24/2015 11:17 AM, philip.chime...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I'm really interested in participating but circumstances prevent me from
> > attending in person. I just signed up as the first remote participant.
> > My purpose with this e-mail is to encourage other remotees to sign up;
> > and to ask for some ideas about how remotees can meaningfully
> participate.
>
> This is great, and something I'd like to see more of, given what travel
> does to our environment.
>
> What can we do to make sure you feel enabled to participate?
>
> Assuming you'll be in Vancouver, -9 hours from Belgium, this is going to
> be quite a sacrifice for you. We usually get started between 09:00 and
> 10:00, so midnight to sunrise for you.
>
> Alternatively, if we're good about having work items on a public board,
> you could work on things while we sleep, in true F/OSS fashion.
>
> So I guess that brings me back to my question, what can we do?
>

Sorry for the delay in replying; partly to let the video chat discussion
settle, and partly disconnecting for holidays.

It's unlikely that I'll be able to contribute meaningfully if I stay up all
night. So, I would prefer the asynchronous method. I am still trying to
figure out how much time I can devote to the hackfest, but if there is a
discussion or whiteboarding session at the beginning of the (GMT+1) day,
then I can definitely join in, either on a one-way live stream, or on a
multi-way conversation, and figure out what to contribute to from there.

I am still trying to figure out just how much time I am able to devote
during those days.

 * Remote video? (assuming participants are comfortable with that)
>

I personally am comfortable.


>  * More IRC conversations, or dedicated stenographer?
>

Probably a list of outcomes of conversations, for people who are not able
to join in live. I personally like to do this even if all the participants
in the same room.

 * Etherpad for notes/conversations?
>

Never tried it, but it seems great.


> I think one thing that would help is for remote participants to prepare
> a list of topics they'd like to ensure are discussed, since we usually
> start by white-boarding topics for the 3-day session.
>

Yep, I added my topics to the list when I signed-up (namely, documentation
browser that I've been working on, and GJS), but I'd be happy to elaborate
on that so that you have more than just a few keywords.

Regards,
-- 
Philip C.
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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Jitsi works fine for meetings.  All each participant needs is
to visit a given URL; it could hardly be easier.

I thought we were looking for one-way streaming to a lot of people,
not for a meeting.  But I could have misunderstood that.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.

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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[James]

On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Christian Hergert  wrote:
> I did contact her yesterday and the answer was jitsi. It seems
> reasonable, but I haven't had a chance to test it out yet.
>
> https://jitsi.org/

FWIW, I just tried this, and it seems to work similarly to ghangouts,
except that you don't need a google account, which seems to make this
even easier.

Eg: https://meet.jit.si/gnomehackers would just work for everyone. You
might have to change some settings if you want to make it private. I
didn't test screen sharing features or any appreciable size of users
connected simultaneously.

Of note, it seems the meet feature was recently relicensed to ALv2 to
make it easier to enable proprietary addons for other developers, but
it's not something I have much information on.

HTH
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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Frederic Muller]

On 12/29/2015 01:47 PM, Richard Stallman wrote:
> I have doubts about that.  A URL might be better for a wizard, who
> could read it immediately rather than waiting for a response.
> However, for someone who is not a wizard, personal guidance from an
> expert is likely to be more helpful.  You can ask the expert to
> explain any point that you don't understand -- something that you
> can't do with a URL.
> 
> Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that the URL is more helpful
> than offering to put you in touch with an expert.  What's the right
> way to respond to something that is helpful but could have been more
> so?  "Why didn't you do it the other way?" seems ungrateful and
> nonconstructive.
> 
> I will ask them for a URL I could post.

Hi.

Ok I am replying because in many projects, not just GNOME, doing such a
thing with only Free Software is a challenge. Having a clear
documentation about it would definitely help everybody.

I am also interested to know about this and would love either a contact
point to generate a URL ;-) or a URL.

Thank you very much in advance.

Fred
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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Nicolas Dufresne]

Le mardi 29 décembre 2015 à 12:56 +, Jasper St. Pierre a écrit :
> If there is no free solution that has a similar easy setup
> experience, perhaps the GNU project should invest in building such a
> service.

If you can afford to focus on WebRTC based solution, implementing an
Open Source service shall keep the complexity to it's lowest. Though,
the stability will depend on the quality of the browser WebRTC support,
that's where the complex code is. You could also achieve better privacy
then most proprietary services, though this is at the cost of bigger
bandwidth and possibly bigger processor power on client side.

cheers,
Nicolas

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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Germán Poo-Caamaño]

On Tue, 2015-12-29 at 12:56 +, Jasper St. Pierre wrote:
> The problem is that we already have an existing method that uses non 
> free software that is easy and does not require expert help to host 
> or join. What we were asking for is an alternative free software 
> service that provides a similar setup experience to the non free
> solution.
> 
> Telling us that you have experts who can help set it up does not 
> instill confidence in your solution.
> 
> If there is no free solution that has a similar easy setup experience
> , perhaps the GNU project should invest in building such a service.

Jangouts might be something worth to give a try and keep an eye on it.

It is a self-hosted solution that uses WebRTC and JavaScript. It has a
MIT license.

https://github.com/jangouts/jangouts

-- 
Germán Poo-Caamaño
http://calcifer.org/


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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Jasper St. Pierre]

The problem is that we already have an existing method that uses non free
software that is easy and does not require expert help to host or join.
What we were asking for is an alternative free software service that
provides a similar setup experience to the non free solution.

Telling us that you have experts who can help set it up does not instill
confidence in your solution.

If there is no free solution that has a similar easy setup experience,
perhaps the GNU project should invest in building such a service.

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015, 1:47 AM Richard Stallman  wrote:

>   > > It is easy to do streaming with free software, in a way that lets
>   > > everyone watch with free software,
>
>   > Incorrect. It is possible, but it is not easy...
>
> That is a somewhat harsh way to say that you disagree.
>
> I have never done video streaming myself, by any method, but the
> people who give advice say they can guide non-wizards.
>
> (I would post the email address here, but it seems unkind
> to post someone's email address publicly without asking.
> I asked them if it is ok.)
>
>   > > and I know people who would be glad
>   > > to help you do this.
>
>   > ... and this is why. ;)
>
> I can't make sense of that statement.  Surely the ease of streaming is
> not a function of how I wrote the message.
>
>   > You could have made it easier, than it is now, by pointing to an URL
>   > which tells us how to do it
>
> I have doubts about that.  A URL might be better for a wizard, who
> could read it immediately rather than waiting for a response.
> However, for someone who is not a wizard, personal guidance from an
> expert is likely to be more helpful.  You can ask the expert to
> explain any point that you don't understand -- something that you
> can't do with a URL.
>
> Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that the URL is more helpful
> than offering to put you in touch with an expert.  What's the right
> way to respond to something that is helpful but could have been more
> so?  "Why didn't you do it the other way?" seems ungrateful and
> nonconstructive.
>
> I will ask them for a URL I could post.
>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
> Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.
>
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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Richard Stallman]

Mallory Knodel  says that I can post her name
and email address.  Please write to her for instructions
about free software streaming.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.

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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Christian Hergert]

On 12/29/2015 10:14 PM, Richard Stallman wrote:
> We don't know how similar or dissimilar they are, but you can find out
> quickly by writing to Mallory Knodel .

I did contact her yesterday and the answer was jitsi. It seems
reasonable, but I haven't had a chance to test it out yet.

https://jitsi.org/

-- Christian
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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Debarshi Ray]

On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 10:57:35PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> It is easy to do streaming with free software, in a way that lets
> everyone watch with free software,

Incorrect. It is possible, but it is not easy...

> and I know people who would be glad
> to help you do this.

... and this is why. ;)

You could have made it easier, than it is now, by pointing to an URL
which tells us how to do it instead of taking the "I know people..."
approach.
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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Tobias Mueller]

Hi!

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 07:31:19PM +0100, Olav Vitters wrote:
> Is there an existing (hosted) solution alternative to hangouts? Pretty
> much as simple as: "go to this URL"?
I know talky.io, appear.in, opentokrtc.com, appr.tc,
meetme, japkin, and others.

I think all of them are not Free Software though.
So essentially Skype in a Web browser.

Firefox Hello is probably the freest implementation.
I haven't used it, though.

Cheers,
  Tobi
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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Olav Vitters]

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 10:03:55AM -0300, Hugo Alejandro wrote:
> http://rtcquickstart.org/
> 
> Daniel Pocock Daniel has always offered their help in creating and improving
> communications through opensource protocols.

That's pretty far off from what we're looking for. Above describes how
to setup an extensive infrastructure to do pretty much everything
related to communications. That such an extensive document is called
"quickstart" gives me the shivers!

Is there an existing (hosted) solution alternative to hangouts? Pretty
much as simple as: "go to this URL"?

-- 
Regards,
Olav
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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Richard Stallman]

  > > It is easy to do streaming with free software, in a way that lets
  > > everyone watch with free software,

  > Incorrect. It is possible, but it is not easy...

That is a somewhat harsh way to say that you disagree.

I have never done video streaming myself, by any method, but the
people who give advice say they can guide non-wizards.

(I would post the email address here, but it seems unkind
to post someone's email address publicly without asking.
I asked them if it is ok.)

  > > and I know people who would be glad
  > > to help you do this.

  > ... and this is why. ;)

I can't make sense of that statement.  Surely the ease of streaming is
not a function of how I wrote the message.

  > You could have made it easier, than it is now, by pointing to an URL
  > which tells us how to do it

I have doubts about that.  A URL might be better for a wizard, who
could read it immediately rather than waiting for a response.
However, for someone who is not a wizard, personal guidance from an
expert is likely to be more helpful.  You can ask the expert to
explain any point that you don't understand -- something that you
can't do with a URL.

Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that the URL is more helpful
than offering to put you in touch with an expert.  What's the right
way to respond to something that is helpful but could have been more
so?  "Why didn't you do it the other way?" seems ungrateful and
nonconstructive.

I will ask them for a URL I could post.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.

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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Debarshi Ray]

Hey,

[Removed a few mailing lists from CC]

On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 02:49:34PM -0800, Christian Hergert wrote:
>  * Remote video? (assuming participants are comfortable with that)

We did run a live stream on Google Hangouts during the first day of
the Content Apps Hackfest in Madrid. Instead of making it a public
broadcast, we specifically invited only those who had expressed a
desire to participate remotely.

This does require having a spare laptop to run the stream.

Cheers,
Rishi
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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Richard Stallman]

  > We did run a live stream on Google Hangouts during the first day of
  > the Content Apps Hackfest in Madrid.

Google Hangouts requires nonfree software.  Please don't ask people to
run a nonfree program in order to view something.

It is easy to do streaming with free software, in a way that lets
everyone watch with free software, and I know people who would be glad
to help you do this.  When you want to do streaming, please write to me
and I will put you in touch with them.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.

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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Christian Hergert]

On 12/27/2015 07:57 PM, Richard Stallman wrote:
> Google Hangouts requires nonfree software.  Please don't ask people to
> run a nonfree program in order to view something.
> 
> It is easy to do streaming with free software, in a way that lets
> everyone watch with free software, and I know people who would be glad
> to help you do this.  When you want to do streaming, please write to me
> and I will put you in touch with them.

Best to get in touch now. Things like this take planning and FOSDEM is
coming up quick.

-- Christian
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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[Christian Hergert]

On 12/24/2015 11:17 AM, philip.chime...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> I'm really interested in participating but circumstances prevent me from
> attending in person. I just signed up as the first remote participant.
> My purpose with this e-mail is to encourage other remotees to sign up;
> and to ask for some ideas about how remotees can meaningfully participate.

This is great, and something I'd like to see more of, given what travel
does to our environment.

What can we do to make sure you feel enabled to participate?

Assuming you'll be in Vancouver, -9 hours from Belgium, this is going to
be quite a sacrifice for you. We usually get started between 09:00 and
10:00, so midnight to sunrise for you.

Alternatively, if we're good about having work items on a public board,
you could work on things while we sleep, in true F/OSS fashion.

So I guess that brings me back to my question, what can we do?

 * Remote video? (assuming participants are comfortable with that)
 * More IRC conversations, or dedicated stenographer?
 * Etherpad for notes/conversations?

I think one thing that would help is for remote participants to prepare
a list of topics they'd like to ensure are discussed, since we usually
start by white-boarding topics for the 3-day session.

Cheers,

-- Christian

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Re: [Builder] Developer experience (DX) hackfest 2016

[philip . chimento]

Hi!

I'm really interested in participating but circumstances prevent me from
attending in person. I just signed up as the first remote participant. My
purpose with this e-mail is to encourage other remotees to sign up; and to
ask for some ideas about how remotees can meaningfully participate.

(Other) Philip

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 7:06 AM Philip Withnall 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> A reminder that the DX hackfest is happening in a little over a month,
> so please make sure you are signed up on the wiki page, and your
> transport and accommodation are sorted out!
>
> Philip
>
> On Sun, 2015-12-13 at 13:50 +, Philip Withnall wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > There’s going to be a developer experience (DX) hackfest at the end
> > of
> > January 2016 (27–29th January) in Brussels, just before FOSDEM. This
> > should be a really useful hackfest for pushing forward the roadmap
> > for
> > developer tools and toolkits in GNOME!
> >
> > https://wiki.gnome.org/Hackfests/DeveloperExperience2016
> >
> > Anyone who has relevant interests in the developer experience is
> > welcome, so please sign up ASAP on the wiki page.
> >
> > If you plan to apply for travel or accommodation sponsorship, please
> > do
> > so in the next week (and certainly no later than the end of December)
> > to the travel committee, so they have time to process requests.
> >
> > https://wiki.gnome.org/Travel
> >
> > The venue will be the betacowork coworking centre in Brussels. It is
> > kindly being sponsored by betacowork and ICAB. Thanks!
> >  • http://www.betacowork.com/
> >  • http://www.icabrussel.be/
> >
> > Philip___
> Builder-list mailing list
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>
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