Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/29/23 01:05, Jacob Kroon via fpc-other wrote: On 4/28/23 23:49, Tomas Hajny via fpc-other wrote: On 28 April 2023 23:31:02 +0200, Jacob Kroon via fpc-other wrote: On 4/28/23 23:20, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other wrote: On 4/28/23 23:48, Jacob Kroon wrote: After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the #fpc logs, the only conclusion I can make is that Nikolay Nikolov == "Joanna". Are you joking? No, this is what it looks like to me, you are "Joanna". But I encourage everyone else to make their own conclusion given the information provided. Please, stop this witch hunting game. No, Nikolay isn"t Joanna. I thought that there was only one person throwing accusations without any evidence in this whole discussion, but it seems that I was wrong. :-( Please, be better at least by being able to admit your mistake. Asking Nikolay for an excusing you would be the right thing to do if you want to know my opinion No, I object to "without any evidence": I posted the evidence is here: https://justpaste.it/cfh0e If you take the time to read the logs, I *think* you will see that I was not being confrontational at all. If you think I am wrong, please explain where and why, What more do you want? I'm not Joanna and I didn't ban you. The channel is run by her, because none of the FPC developers (including me) have time. Therefore, it's not an official FPC channel. You're free to join the alternative channel #fpc-alt, or create your own. I called you confrontational, because you went on a crusade against her, on the mailing list, instead of trying to talk to her and cooperate and gain her trust. I understand it's annoying for new users to be interrogated. I don't think it's the right approach, but I don't have time to try to do a better job at moderation. However, 2 years ago, the channel on FreeNode was practically unmoderated, and was overrun by trolls and the experience was horrible for both new users as well as for old users. Now, at least, the existing users are fine and it's possible to discuss normal things about Pascal, but unfortunately new users have to jump through hoops, until they gain Joanna's trust. It's not exactly a dictatorship, it's probably better compared to a "visa regime". But 2 years ago, it was a burning trash can/landfill. I'm afraid that without moderation the channel will turn back to what it was back then. Moderating a channel is not that easy. I think the solution to no longer endorse #fpc as an official channel is fair. Since FPC developers don't have the time to moderate an official channel, anybody can join any unofficial channel that they want. If you don't like Joanna's policies, you can join #fpc-alt, make it a better and more welcoming to new users place and, if you're doing a better job it will eventually grow bigger than #fpc and most people will prefer it. Or, if you're unhappy with #fpc-alt's moderation, you can create another unofficial channel and do an even better job. Also, things like your issues are probably better discussed on a mailing list or forum anyway. On IRC, in a single channel, there can usually be only one discussion at a time, and it's necessary for the people in this moment to be interested in the topic. On a forum or mailing list, you can post a topic and wait for an answer and it doesn't interfere with people, who discuss other topics. On IRC, posting a question, while other people are talking about something else can be perceived at trying to hijack the conversation and shut it down. I'm not saying you were doing that, but it can be perceived that way, while that's less likely to happen in forums and mailing lists. I won't comment much on your accusations of me being Joanna's sock puppet account. All I'm going to say, it's at best a very bad judgement on your part, at worst - a very lame attempt at trolling. I won't necessarily assume malicious intent on your part, however it's bordering on being very suspicious. So let's pretend you never said it. Nikolay ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/28/23 23:49, Tomas Hajny via fpc-other wrote: On 28 April 2023 23:31:02 +0200, Jacob Kroon via fpc-other wrote: On 4/28/23 23:20, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other wrote: On 4/28/23 23:48, Jacob Kroon wrote: After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the #fpc logs, the only conclusion I can make is that Nikolay Nikolov == "Joanna". Are you joking? No, this is what it looks like to me, you are "Joanna". But I encourage everyone else to make their own conclusion given the information provided. Please, stop this witch hunting game. No, Nikolay isn"t Joanna. I thought that there was only one person throwing accusations without any evidence in this whole discussion, but it seems that I was wrong. :-( Please, be better at least by being able to admit your mistake. Asking Nikolay for an excusing you would be the right thing to do if you want to know my opinion No, I object to "without any evidence": I posted the evidence is here: https://justpaste.it/cfh0e If you take the time to read the logs, I *think* you will see that I was not being confrontational at all. If you think I am wrong, please explain where and why, Jacob ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 28 April 2023 23:31:02 +0200, Jacob Kroon via fpc-other wrote: >On 4/28/23 23:20, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other wrote: >> On 4/28/23 23:48, Jacob Kroon wrote: >>> After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the >>> #fpc logs, the only conclusion I can make is that Nikolay Nikolov == >>> "Joanna". >> >> Are you joking? > >No, this is what it looks like to me, you are "Joanna". > >But I encourage everyone else to make their own conclusion given the >information provided. Please, stop this witch hunting game. No, Nikolay isn"t Joanna. I thought that there was only one person throwing accusations without any evidence in this whole discussion, but it seems that I was wrong. :-( Please, be better at least by being able to admit your mistake. Asking Nikolay for an excusing you would be the right thing to do if you want to know my opinion Tomas ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 28-4-2023 23:20, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other wrote: After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the #fpc logs, the only conclusion I can make is that Nikolay Nikolov == "Joanna". Are you joking? I actually smiled. Let's just say that what I see from Joanna doesn't resonate at all with knowing Nikolay IRL. ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/28/23 23:20, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other wrote: On 4/28/23 23:48, Jacob Kroon wrote: After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the #fpc logs, the only conclusion I can make is that Nikolay Nikolov == "Joanna". Are you joking? No, this is what it looks like to me, you are "Joanna". But I encourage everyone else to make their own conclusion given the information provided. Jacob ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/28/23 23:48, Jacob Kroon wrote: After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the #fpc logs, the only conclusion I can make is that Nikolay Nikolov == "Joanna". Are you joking? Nikolay ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/28/23 20:39, Nikolay Nikolov via fpc-other wrote: On 4/26/23 21:27, Jacob Kroon via fpc-other wrote: On 4/26/23 13:58, HSN via fpc-other wrote: Hi Nickolay Thanks for helping explain. I imagine that his new channel is now thriving with the list of excellent prospects in the ban list that I provided. It’s always good to see a new irc channel get off to a good start with some talented people on board ;) ^^^ The comment above says it all. I understand why no fpc developer wants to be associated with #fpc. This is not true. The *real* reason is that none of the current FPC developers has the time and dedication to moderate an IRC channel. Note that there are two people from the FPC team (me and Karoly) who were given moderator access by Joanna, who registered the channel. That's how it became an official channel. However, unfortunately, it turned out that in practice neither me, nor Karoly has the time to moderate the channel, so it's de facto not moderated by the FPC team. That was the reason for the decision to no longer list it as an "official" channel. Note that if someone from the FPC team (e.g. fpk, oliebol, Tomas Hajny, etc.) wants to moderate the channel, I will give them access. However, I will not remove Joanna's access, because this will make the channel effectively unmoderated and we saw how well that worked in 2020 on freenode, when the channel was turned into a burning trash can by trolls and it was impossible to talk about Pascal at all. Back then, I had to intervene and ban a few people, because the FPC moderators back then weren't doing their job, due to lack of time. Now, at least, there is a group of people, who talk about Pascal. In fact, I looked at the channel logs. There were people (not Joanna!), who cheered after your ban. Apparently people in the channel were discussing something else (Pascal-related) and overall weren't very interested in talking about using C-style bitwise operators in Pascal. I'm sorry to say that, but when there are people, who are happy about your ban, this shows it's not just Joanna, but also others, so maybe #fpc was not the best place to discuss your problem anyway and it's good that you found help on the mailing lists. Maybe a ban was an overreaction, but you probably wouldn't have found much help on the channel anyway. To be fair, I will say that there were also people, who questioned your ban, and I probably wouldn't have banned you, if I were there, moderating the channel (I'm online, but most of time I'm afk, just recording logs). However, there's a majority of people, who are happy with Joanna's moderation and are not disgruntled and eager to leave. Maybe #fpc-alt will become a better unofficial IRC channel? So far, I've joined the #fpc-alt channel (without leaving #fpc), to support an alternative channel as well, but I'm not very impressed, not only due to the lack of people (only 3 people, including me), but also due to the fact that there's not even a topic. I know growing a channel takes time, but if you're serious about providing an alternative channel, you should at least set the topic. It doesn't take that much effort. Of course, there are only first impressions, and in the long term, they can turn out to be wrong, and maybe #fpc-alt will grow a large community as well, and will allow a more free and welcoming to newcomers environment. And of course, there's also #lazarus, where moderation was taken up by giantm (a Lazarus developer). So, plenty of alternative places to talk, if you're not happy about #fpc. As already mentioned, better to use the mailing list for technical questions. Sure! The mailing lists are great! I'm happy to hear that they are working for you! I think the bigger problem is that #pascal, which is more general, has *also* been hijacked by "Joanna". Technically speaking, she didn't "hijack" the channel. She is the channel owner, by virtue of being the first person to register it on this IRC network. That's how IRC works. I don't think #pascal was ever an official FPC channel. In fact, I got founder access there too, just by asking her nicely. Many times, this approach works much better, compared to the confrontational approach. Once again, if someone wants to moderate the channel, I can give them access to #pascal. The only condition is, it needs to be someone trusted, from the FPC community, and not some newcomer (we're talking channel operator access here). I have uploaded all the #fpc logs I have before I got banned here: https://justpaste.it/cfh0e (I am "kroon" in the logs) In short, the conversation starts with me talking to "nickysn", Nikolay Nikolov, the person I am replying to in this email, and after a while he gets silent, and user "Joanna" joins and starts interrogating me. I don't think anyone who reads those logs would consider me "confrontational". After reading this email that I am replying to here, and revisiting the
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/26/23 21:27, Jacob Kroon via fpc-other wrote: On 4/26/23 13:58, HSN via fpc-other wrote: Hi Nickolay Thanks for helping explain. I imagine that his new channel is now thriving with the list of excellent prospects in the ban list that I provided. It’s always good to see a new irc channel get off to a good start with some talented people on board ;) ^^^ The comment above says it all. I understand why no fpc developer wants to be associated with #fpc. This is not true. The *real* reason is that none of the current FPC developers has the time and dedication to moderate an IRC channel. Note that there are two people from the FPC team (me and Karoly) who were given moderator access by Joanna, who registered the channel. That's how it became an official channel. However, unfortunately, it turned out that in practice neither me, nor Karoly has the time to moderate the channel, so it's de facto not moderated by the FPC team. That was the reason for the decision to no longer list it as an "official" channel. Note that if someone from the FPC team (e.g. fpk, oliebol, Tomas Hajny, etc.) wants to moderate the channel, I will give them access. However, I will not remove Joanna's access, because this will make the channel effectively unmoderated and we saw how well that worked in 2020 on freenode, when the channel was turned into a burning trash can by trolls and it was impossible to talk about Pascal at all. Back then, I had to intervene and ban a few people, because the FPC moderators back then weren't doing their job, due to lack of time. Now, at least, there is a group of people, who talk about Pascal. In fact, I looked at the channel logs. There were people (not Joanna!), who cheered after your ban. Apparently people in the channel were discussing something else (Pascal-related) and overall weren't very interested in talking about using C-style bitwise operators in Pascal. I'm sorry to say that, but when there are people, who are happy about your ban, this shows it's not just Joanna, but also others, so maybe #fpc was not the best place to discuss your problem anyway and it's good that you found help on the mailing lists. Maybe a ban was an overreaction, but you probably wouldn't have found much help on the channel anyway. To be fair, I will say that there were also people, who questioned your ban, and I probably wouldn't have banned you, if I were there, moderating the channel (I'm online, but most of time I'm afk, just recording logs). However, there's a majority of people, who are happy with Joanna's moderation and are not disgruntled and eager to leave. Maybe #fpc-alt will become a better unofficial IRC channel? So far, I've joined the #fpc-alt channel (without leaving #fpc), to support an alternative channel as well, but I'm not very impressed, not only due to the lack of people (only 3 people, including me), but also due to the fact that there's not even a topic. I know growing a channel takes time, but if you're serious about providing an alternative channel, you should at least set the topic. It doesn't take that much effort. Of course, there are only first impressions, and in the long term, they can turn out to be wrong, and maybe #fpc-alt will grow a large community as well, and will allow a more free and welcoming to newcomers environment. And of course, there's also #lazarus, where moderation was taken up by giantm (a Lazarus developer). So, plenty of alternative places to talk, if you're not happy about #fpc. As already mentioned, better to use the mailing list for technical questions. Sure! The mailing lists are great! I'm happy to hear that they are working for you! I think the bigger problem is that #pascal, which is more general, has *also* been hijacked by "Joanna". Technically speaking, she didn't "hijack" the channel. She is the channel owner, by virtue of being the first person to register it on this IRC network. That's how IRC works. I don't think #pascal was ever an official FPC channel. In fact, I got founder access there too, just by asking her nicely. Many times, this approach works much better, compared to the confrontational approach. Once again, if someone wants to moderate the channel, I can give them access to #pascal. The only condition is, it needs to be someone trusted, from the FPC community, and not some newcomer (we're talking channel operator access here). Best regards, Nikolay Jacob ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no
On 4/27/23 10:08 AM, Jacob Kroon via fpc-other wrote: And frankly, although "Joanna" doesn't actually represent fpc development in any way, the encounter with him/her/it has not been in favor of us contributing back to fpc, I'm sorry to say. FWIW: one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole barrel... -- NOTE: No off-list assistance is given without prior approval. *Please keep mailing list traffic on the list where it belongs!* ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] It’s easy to judge
>Just stop it... Agree James ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
