Re: [fpc-other] fpc-other Digest, Vol 150, Issue 8
Tomas Hajny via fpc-other said on Mon, 24 Apr 2023 02:19:32 +0200 >On 2023-04-24 01:56, Alexander Stohr via fpc-other wrote: >> Am 2023-04-22 um 19:55 schrieb HSN via fpc-other: > > >Hello Alexander, > > . > . >>> See you in irc or forums I’m done with this mailing list. Thank >>> you for reading and have a nice day :) >> Have fun wherever you want to go now. > . > . > >Please note that Joanna unsubscribed from the mailing list right after >having sent her last message you responded to. Obviously, she might >read further responses in the mailing list archive or some other >places (if she's interested in them - anybody may guess how much >likely that is), but she wouldn't receive this response (or >potentially other responses) directly. Discussion of the #fpc situation is also welcome on ##fpc-alt (note the two pound signs, which on Libre.Chat indicates "offtopic"). SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] fpc-other Digest, Vol 150, Issue 8
On 2023-04-24 01:56, Alexander Stohr via fpc-other wrote: Am 2023-04-22 um 19:55 schrieb HSN via fpc-other: Hello Alexander, . . See you in irc or forums I’m done with this mailing list. Thank you for reading and have a nice day :) Have fun wherever you want to go now. . . Please note that Joanna unsubscribed from the mailing list right after having sent her last message you responded to. Obviously, she might read further responses in the mailing list archive or some other places (if she's interested in them - anybody may guess how much likely that is), but she wouldn't receive this response (or potentially other responses) directly. Tomas (one of FPC mailing list moderators) ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] fpc-other Digest, Vol 150, Issue 8
Am 2023-04-22 um 19:55 schrieb HSN via fpc-other: Hi Graemeg thanks for visiting. I wish you had seen the topic which explains how to get in the invite list without an email. I’m sorry about that. This line does not resolve any sort of a certain problem - and even if it would (but it does not), it would only apply to the named single person. I’m very disappointed in the crazy talk I’ve found in here. That does not buy anything. It expresses some sort of personal feeling. Its neither an apology nor a promise to improve anything at all. Since when is it ok for some stranger who has absolutely nothing to do with #fpc channel to come along and demand ownership of our channel that we use talk about our fpc coding everyday? The internet is full of strangers - and as long as its reasonable to a degree to assume its a true human, you should treat it as a human. period. Dont ask others - ask yourself. If you already need the opinion of others about humanity and human acting, then you give me the feeling you are having an obvious deficit in that respect. Dont do rabulistics, dont do rethorics. Stay for yourself. A good reputation is something that you have to work for as long as your life lasts. I feel you are expecting those channel your buddy club for nice talk, like young people at high school might sometimes have. Later life is a social skills level more advanced than those age stage i mentioned just before. This is insanity. He has no business there besides to cause trouble. I see no evidence that he even programs in pascal. He has his own channel is he jealous that he can’t get members or something? I don’t know. Feelings again. To me it sounds even more paranoia than i have found in the previous discussions. Fact driven decisions would be what a moderation task in an open system would require to carry out. Giving good proof of such facts would pull you out of the problem - but no visible efforts to me you even want to try that. That gives me the impression, that you cant because you dont have. Why go the way asking others, whilst having all good reason in your hand? Because you dont have...!?! (Side node: A closed system has a different rule set. There you can have a gatekeeper role - there you can check IDs, there you can claim its 'your club'. IRC is open. Period.) Why would anyone take this person seriously? I don’t want to associate with anyone who takes him seriously I’ll tell you that. You dont want to put any cent of efforts in cooperation? It seems to be a fixed pattern for you to NOT cooperate, to not explore further, to close the lids instead, to kick people off that you feel(!) bothered in some way. Yes, the steady stream of new people joining an IRC channel is a burden, a load, something that will try to "depress" you. Either you can stand it, or you cant. Again said, its an open system by its current design and setup - because its purpose demands it. The question is, why are the others getting evicted when just speaking up - but not even the idea of you being the single point of problem gets a single sentence of discussion, of serious thought. What shall i say? You are going to ask why others would take a person seriously. Because they do something that you are looking to be not capable of. And now... anyone shall follow that your in-ability... - well it sounds like you cannot... you can not cope with people in a way needed to go for an admin job. I hope the people lurking are more sensible than some of the people talking in here. If anyone wants to be part of a nice fpc community in irc where trolls and Spybots are not allowed Please come join us in #fpc on Libera. If our channel gets hijacked don’t worry I will help you find where we moved to and make The new channel even better. Lurkers are the silent people - so you are sort of claiming the silent people to be on /your side/. Something like "i have the silent majority on my side" is the BS that i found in Q-Anon circles by the dozend - but it violates any sane logic. Thats nothing but a pure rhetoric's non-honest trick and strategy, again. Its just filling some characters in - with no substance at all. You have lost the point - you need the active people on your side. But i cant see any valid efforts from your side to convince, to provide proof, to put anything on the desk that would clean up the raised subject. Instead i see you flee to some sort of a future - whilst the struggle of today is just forgotten. - Nope, the topic was about how to clean up. You don't contribute anything at all to that. Instead your lines to read like, if anything goes wrong, and you probably have strong reasons to assume something like that, then you will be over there. That's advertisement of a concurrent media. So you are already claiming your self to be guilty enough to be in such needs. Okay, if you want to tell the world you are guilty. Why not undertake a clear hand-over step now? Reminder: a good reputation is something you have to
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no.
On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 05:36:01AM -0400, wkitty42--- via fpc-other wrote: > [...] > > the fact that she is using statements made elsewhere to justify her actions > in some IRC channels that she moderates raises quite a number of red > flags... red flags that should maybe be taken to that IRC network's admins > if anyone cares to really do something about them... Unfortunately, that is not possible, as per libera.chat's network policy (which I consider a net benefit in general -- but as with free speech, there's some nasty side effects to be had). Check out https://paste.debian.net/plain/1273023 for one such failed attempt in particular. The tl;dr version: Joanna interrogates a new user (disso_peach) how/why they were interested in fpc. disso_peach (afaiui) states they are developing a new OS and would like to port fpc to it. After that particular strand of conversation dies down, Joanna takes a while of silence to ban disso_peach ([01:00:45]). I (colo) inquire why disso_peach had been banned, and the reson given reads "[15:21:40] He was trying to discredit our community". Joanna then begins to interrogate me in her usual fashion, and I endure the public ordeal to make my case against her abuse of power. Two IRC network operators present in the channel (Boohumbug and jess-o-lantern) come to the conclusion that "[16:28:39] that you're running the channel quite toxicly", and "[16:28:41] _YOU_ are the common denominator in this." (both adressing Joanna with that). They continue and effectively conclude with "[16:29:42] there's nothing staff can or should do about that, channels are free to run themselves how they want, but my opinion is you're running this channel with unnecessary and arbitrary use of power" -- tl;dr fin -- Therefore, any change regarding #fpc and its moderation style/personnel will have to originate from those who have power over the *channel*, not from those with who have power over the *network* hosting it. -- with best regards: - Johannes Truschnigg ( johan...@truschnigg.info ) signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no.
On 4/22/23 10:16 PM, Steve Litt via fpc-other wrote: Hi all, I was kick-banned from #pascal . See the following: * ChanServ gives channel operator status to Joanna * Joanna sets ban on $a:Stevelitt * You have been kicked from #pascal by Joanna (slander and harrassment) I said nothing about Joanna on #irc or #pascal, so she's basing it on what I said on fpc-other. You guys have read what I said. Did that sound like slander and harassment to you? To me it sounded like an honest critique of her moderation practices. she apparently needs a lesson in English and law... none of what i have seen that you have written qualifies, by definition, as slander and certainly not harassment... from the Oxford Dictionary: "slander: somebody/something to make a false spoken statement about somebody that is intended to damage the good opinion that people have of them." i've seen no false statements made about her. from the Oxford Dictionary: "harassment: 1. the act of annoying or worrying somebody by putting pressure on them or saying or doing unpleasant things to them. 2. the act of making repeated attacks on an enemy." i've seen no "pressure" being put on her, no repeated attacks, and certainly nothing defining her as an "enemy"... IANAL but it certainly appears that she is reaching quite far to justify her actions... if anything, it would appear that she is slandering you by her statement that you are slandering and harassing her... I had thought that Joanna meant it when she said she'd step down from her operator status at #fpc to allow for somebody else to take that over, and I thought we were all going to be happy, but obviously I was wrong. i didn't see her say that she was stepping down... what i saw was her saying that she was giving up whatever rights she thought she had to the public and accessible _ban list_... the fact that she is using statements made elsewhere to justify her actions in some IRC channels that she moderates raises quite a number of red flags... red flags that should maybe be taken to that IRC network's admins if anyone cares to really do something about them... ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
Re: [fpc-other] I thought it was going to get better, but no.
Good day to you all!
On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 07:48:35AM +0200, Tomas Hajny via fpc-other wrote:
> On 23 April 2023 04:16:41 +0200, Steve Litt via fpc-other
> wrote:
> [...]
> Indeed; it's pure revenge. :-( I believe that you might contact the server
> administrators and ask them if they consider this an acceptable behaviour.
The libera.chat network operators actually had their eyes on the #fpc and
#lazarus channels a while back (before I had noticed - and later felt - the
problem with Joanna's excessive use of moderation powers myself... please
check the forum thread at [0] and the transcript at [1] in particular (esp.
around the [17:33:28] timestamp) for details).
However, due to network policy, they cannot and will not meaningfully
interfere.
I approached one of those operators in private after they had gathered some
information concerning the situation in channels managed by Joanna, and one of
them told me (direct quote):
"We wish there was something we could do but we have a hands off policy
unless network policies are being violated and in this case they are not :("
They also told me that they were "frustrated at the whole siutation", which I
can *very* much relate to.
The only ones who can fix the situation are those who can exercise the same or
more powers over the channel(s) as/than Joanna can. For #fpc, those persons'
registered nicknames are, as far as I gather from Chanserv:
- arahael
- nickysn
- Chain|Q
> >I had thought that Joanna meant it when she said she'd step down from her
> >operator status at #fpc to allow for somebody else to take that over, and I
> >thought we were all going to be happy, but obviously I was wrong.
>
> I believe that you misinterpreted her statement. If I understand it
> correctly, she just wrote that somebody could invite the banned people to a
> different channel, but she never considered to free her supposed kingdom.
> :-(
Turns out I had initially misinterpreted her statement to the mailing list in
that very same way as well, but the follow-up in her usual, defiant tone
cleared things up very well...
It's a pity this channel should go to waste because of its mad ruler.
Thankfully, #lazarus has apparently been saved in the meantime.
> >I suggest the FPC project remove channel #fpc from
> >https://wiki.freepascal.org/FPC_IRC_channel . There's no need to subject
> >any FPC using people or people who want to use FPC to the kind of
> >moderation that now happens on #fpc. Like it or not, the extreme moderation
> >practices on #fpc reflect very badly on the FPC project.
>
> I would think that the disclaimer added to those pages should be sufficient?
If it were my decision, I would not endorse any of the channels subject to
Joanna's moderation even by mentioning. But then again I believe to have been
treated _very_ unfairly by her in the past (again, see [0]), so I'm probably
not the best advisor to rely on in the matter ;)
Of course, I will continue using both fpc and lazarus, no matter what comes of
this little tragedy. Both projects are of much too awesome utility to me to
leave them behind just because of some toxic individual's unjust rule over
some project-adjacent IRC property.
[0]: https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,62584.0.html
[1]: https://paste.debian.net/plainh/fdc31280
--
with best regards:
- Johannes Truschnigg ( johan...@truschnigg.info )
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[fpc-other] #irc
Hi all, For the good of the FPC project, I'm going to try very hard to stop writing about #fpc problems on FPC venues such as this mailing list. If any of you want to discuss #fpc problems with me, specifically, offlist, you know my email address and you know there's always ##fpc-alt (remember, #fpc-alt with one hash is ontopic only, and #fpc problems are offtopic (don't relate to the Pascal language)). And you have my word that if I ever ban somebody from #fpc-alt or ##fpc-alt, it will be a very exceptional event that lots of channel listeners will agree with. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm ___ fpc-other maillist - fpc-other@lists.freepascal.org https://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-other
