Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2016-11-02 10:22, Bo Berglund wrote:
> Do you have any advice on how to install an NNTP server on Linux?

I have been running the sn NNTP Server for the last 10 years. For the
first 6 it was on Linux, and for the last 4 on FreeBSD. I've been
running sn v0.3.8 all that time.

  http://patrik.iki.fi/sn/

It is a very small and simple NNTP server for low to medium amount of
newsgroups, and is dead simple to maintain.

Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Bo Berglund]

On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 09:48:30 +0100, Allan
 wrote:

>On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 09:38:43 +
>Graeme Geldenhuys  wrote:
>
> > On 2016-10-31 08:34, Bo Berglund wrote:
> > > By what I have seen is that Lars cannot continue the web interface
> > > to Gmane NNTP, but that the NNTP server will continue.
> >
> > Ah, thanks for clarifying that. I was under the impression that Gmane
> > was going to close down completely. Nice to hear that part of it (the
> > most important part) is still going to continue.
>
>I really don't care, if his web interface goes away - never used it.
>If he really would stop the gmane newsserver, I would just link
>the mailinglist to my own newsserver, as I have done with lots of other
>mailinglists, over the years :-)
>
>I think the discussion about which model is the right one for FPC is
>stupid, as no one will ever agree on anything.
>
>OTOH, I have been running my own newsserver for 15 years - with a
>gateway to a mailinglist server, and a very simple Webinterface on top
>of the newsserver - and it has been running that way all the time on
>OS/2 !  Please don't tell me - that there is not very simple solutions
>for that ( and hopefully 15 years newer :-) ) for nix or win.
...
>   Allan.

Sounds like one could set up such a server on a Raspberry Pi (Linux
Debian type). I am running all kinds of stuff on RPi, for example
Lazarus/FPC, a VPN server and more.

Do you have any advice on how to install an NNTP server on Linux?
I have never looked at that before. It would need to subscribe to
lists using its own dedicated mail account, right?


-- 
Bo Berglund
Developer in Sweden

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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Jonas Maebe]

Hi,

I accidentally rejected the message below by Allan 
 because I thought I was looking at the 
moderation queue of the fpc-pascal list. So here it is.



Jonas
FPC mailing lists admin


On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 09:38:43 +
Graeme Geldenhuys  wrote:

> On 2016-10-31 08:34, Bo Berglund wrote:
> > By what I have seen is that Lars cannot continue the web interface
> > to Gmane NNTP, but that the NNTP server will continue.
>
> Ah, thanks for clarifying that. I was under the impression that Gmane
> was going to close down completely. Nice to hear that part of it (the
> most important part) is still going to continue.

I really don't care, if his web interface goes away - never used it.
If he really would stop the gmane newsserver, I would just link
the mailinglist to my own newsserver, as I have done with lots of other
mailinglists, over the years :-)

I think the discussion about which model is the right one for FPC is
stupid, as no one will ever agree on anything.

OTOH, I have been running my own newsserver for 15 years - with a
gateway to a mailinglist server, and a very simple Webinterface on top
of the newsserver - and it has been running that way all the time on
OS/2 !  Please don't tell me - that there is not very simple solutions
for that ( and hopefully 15 years newer :-) ) for nix or win.

What I'm saying here is, that I would hope, that we could persuade the
FPC Team to set up such a solution - so that everybody would be happy.

It really do have a lot of advantages - especially if running
mailinglists and webforuns as separate things - because that would
split the community - the other solution joins forces.


  Allan.



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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Travis Siegel]

They still offer it, but it's a 30-day trial, and it appears that once 
you get the trial activation number, it's good for any of the products, 
only I (using a screen reader) couldn't select which product I wanted, 
so it downloaded and installed their c++ suite of tools instead of the 
delphi ones, so I'm stuck with a delphi free computer (still).  Millions 
of folks may use the thing, but I can tell you none of those millions 
use a screen reader, because I can't get the thing to do much, though it 
does seem usable on the surface, as I dig into the various 
functionality, I find it's not quite as accessible as it first appears 
 I think I'll stick to my text editors, and command-line tools.


(and not use their c++ products at all.  After the 30 day trial, it's 
still almost 300 bucks for their intro version, which admittedly is way 
better than 1400 they want for the pro version, and if I were actually 
making money at this, it would be a worthwhile investment, but since 
it's a personal thing, it's not really worth it, when there's other 
alternatives that are more accessible for me.




On 10/31/2016 5:37 AM, Jonas Maebe wrote:

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

Embarcadero has a Delphi 10.1 (Berlin) Starter Edition for free at the
moment. I downloaded a copy and can make it available for download if
Embarcadero doesn't offer it any more.

The fact that they offered the software as a free download for personal
use does not give you the right to redistribute that software yourself.
Use and (re)distribution are two separate things under copyright.

Please do not offer or encourage infringing on Embarcadero's copyrights
on our mailing lists.


Jonas
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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2016-10-31 10:29, Mark Morgan Lloyd wrote:
> have been pulled 
> in that are either no longer available or aren't going to work with 
> FPC/Lazarus.

In the case of XanaNews, the two primary components is use are Indy and
VirtualTreeview. Both are supported by FPC. I don't see the point of
using VirtualTreeview though, so if I do go ahead with the port, I'll
probably remove that dependency. There are other minor components in
use, but they are custom written and included with XanaNews source code
- easy to port of simply replaced with standard components. The other
obstacle is multiple Win32 API calls and RichEdit.dll usage. I can't
remember exactly for what usage the Win32 API call was used, but it
shouldn't be hard to de-tangle - maybe just time consuming. The
RichEdit.dll usage is easy to remove too.

There as already been some discussion regarding what is needed to port
XanaNews. You are welcome to read about them on my news server, where I
host the official XanaNews support newsgroup too.

  server:geldenhuys.co.uk
  port:  119
  newsgroup: xananews.talk


> 
> Frankly, I've always found the standard Mozilla family of clients adequate.

I would normally agree, and indeed it is the longest standing clients I
have been using for many years. Thunderbird does come with its bugs
though, and I unfortunately often stumble over the same ones for the
last 8 years. eg: unable to save an attachment (randomly occurs), or
moving a message from one account to another account, I loose any
attachments.

Saying that, XanaNews has some excellent newsgroup features, very fast,
and light on memory.

Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Mark Morgan Lloyd]

On 31/10/16 03:00, Travis Siegel wrote:

On 10/30/2016 6:36 PM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:


Hey, we even have an excellent news client written in Object Pascal -
just take a look an XanaNews! btw: XanaNews supports all the above
benefits and much much more.



Does this nntp client compile with fpc? It's written in delphi, and I've
been unable to find a legitimate copy of delphi even though I've
searched for one for years.  Either I'm not looking in the right places,
or nobody is selling one.  I'm not interested in paying $1500 for the
delphi replacement, even if it does run on linux.


There's copies on eBay occasionally, although one obviously has to be 
careful that it's legitimate and can be registered (if that's still 
mandatory).


However the real question is not so much the version of the language and 
VCL that's been used, but how many extra libraries etc. have been pulled 
in that are either no longer available or aren't going to work with 
FPC/Lazarus.


Frankly, I've always found the standard Mozilla family of clients adequate.

--
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markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk

[Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]
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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Marco van de Voort]

In our previous episode, Graeme Geldenhuys said:
> They even allow "limited commercial use" with it. I don't know the
> details though.

iirc up to Eur/$ 1000 turnover. I don't know if you can use it in a big
corporation inhouse to send 3 values to your PLC via serial though (since
how to calculate turnover in that case?)
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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Jonas Maebe]

Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
> Embarcadero has a Delphi 10.1 (Berlin) Starter Edition for free at the
> moment. I downloaded a copy and can make it available for download if
> Embarcadero doesn't offer it any more.

The fact that they offered the software as a free download for personal
use does not give you the right to redistribute that software yourself.
Use and (re)distribution are two separate things under copyright.

Please do not offer or encourage infringing on Embarcadero's copyrights
on our mailing lists.


Jonas
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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2016-10-31 08:34, Bo Berglund wrote:
> By what I have seen is that Lars cannot continue the web interface to
> Gmane NNTP, but that the NNTP server will continue.

Ah, thanks for clarifying that. I was under the impression that Gmane
was going to close down completely. Nice to hear that part of it (the
most important part) is still going to continue.

Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2016-10-31 01:45, Travis Siegel wrote:
> Does this nntp client compile with fpc?

No, at the moment it is a Delphi only project, but as I mentioned in
another reply, I am very tempted at starting a FPC and LCL/fpGUI port.
It does run perfectly under WINE though - that's how I'm using it under
FreeBSD.

> It's written in delphi, and I've 
> been unable to find a legitimate copy of delphi even though I've 
> searched for one for years.

Embarcadero has a Delphi 10.1 (Berlin) Starter Edition for free at the
moment. I downloaded a copy and can make it available for download if
Embarcadero doesn't offer it any more. I haven't installed it yet (I
don't really use Delphi at all any more), but in the Lazarus Forum's
they mention that it is working well, and Zeos components can be
installed without trouble.

Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
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http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2016-10-31 02:12, wkitt...@windstream.net wrote:
> what?! no linux or BSD flavor? i'm shocked and kinda disappointed

XanaNews is a Delphi only application at the moment, and has many
Windows specific API calls. I am very tempted at starting a
FPC/LCL/fpGUI port though. Good news is, the current version runs
perfectly under WINE using Linux or FreeBSD.

Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Bo Berglund]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 02:12:44 +0100, Allan
 wrote:

>Anyway, I agree, that newsservers are the best for this, so it
>is nice, that all FPC maillists are on Gmane now.
>Unfortunately, that have been some talks about stopping the Gmane
>service, so it would be nice to see fpc lists on a more permanent
>newsserver.

By what I have seen is that Lars cannot continue the web interface to
Gmane NNTP, but that the NNTP server will continue.
It was a while since I read it so things may have changed.
(I use GMANE NNTP myself of course.)


-- 
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Developer in Sweden

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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Allan]

On Sun, 30 Oct 2016 22:36:59 +
Graeme Geldenhuys  wrote:

> On 2016-10-30 18:57, Tomas Hajny wrote:
> > 
> > Responding to fpc-other, because it's off-topic.
> 
> I can't see why... but okay.
> 
> 
> > I don't miss any messages, i.e. it isn't a general problem (which
> > obviously doesn't imply that there is no problem).
> 
Neither do I, and I only get this 'maillist' as a newsgroup from
Gmane :-)

> Over the years I have seen so many issues with the mailing lists.
> Missing messages, messages being delivered out of sequence, some
> domains not accept etc etc.
> 
> > On the other hand, NNTP is not guaranteed to be free of spam,
> 
> Yes, the Usenet Newsgroups are often pestered with spam. But if you
> looked at any private NNTP servers, 99.99% of the time there is zero
> spam messages. Plus the newsgroup admin can simply delete such a post,
> and nobody else would see it - that can't be done with mailing lists.

Deleting spam manually from newsgroups means spam did get sent to other
newsservers, and the user that was quick got it. However, newsservers
usually have spamfilters too, that takes most from the start.
 
> > nor ensuring smooth
> > communication for everybody either (as an example, it may not be
> > accessible from corporate environments).
> 
> Over the years I have heard many say that, but I am yet to see such a
> case. That obviously doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it is just very
> unlikely. And even if it does, that is exactly why I host a Web
> Interface to my news server - for those very rare edge cases.

I work at such a company, where only Web is available though a proxy. 
And yes, in that case a webforum on top of a newsserver works fine.
I run such a solution myself - mine does also include a mail <-> news
gateway - so it can still be used as maillist also --  and still running
on good old OS/2 ;-)

> I can also argue that many corporate environments would frown upon
> using a company email account to register to a non-company related
> mailing list. In the past I have also had some issues with company
> email accounts and mailing lists - very dependent on how the company
> emails are set up and how messages are being distributed.

The most notorious problems with people subscribing from office accounts
is IMHO the 'I'm not in the OFFICE now' - a pain for all maillists.

> NNTP has many other benefits too:
[..]
I obliously agree with all of it ;-)

> Hey, we even have an excellent news client written in Object Pascal -
> just take a look an XanaNews! btw: XanaNews supports all the above
> benefits and much much more.
> 
>  Github repository
>https://github.com/graemeg/xananews/
> 
>  XanaNews releases
>   HTTP://github.com/graemeg/xananews/releases

Available for all the OS/platforms that FPC supports ?

Anyway, I agree, that newsservers are the best for this, so it
is nice, that all FPC maillists are on Gmane now.
Unfortunately, that have been some talks about stopping the Gmane
service, so it would be nice to see fpc lists on a more permanent
newsserver.


  Allan.



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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[wkitty42]

On 10/30/2016 06:36 PM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
[...]

Hey, we even have an excellent news client written in Object Pascal -
just take a look an XanaNews! btw: XanaNews supports all the above
benefits and much much more.

 Github repository
   https://github.com/graemeg/xananews/

 XanaNews releases
  https://github.com/graemeg/xananews/releases


what?! no linux or BSD flavor? i'm shocked and kinda disappointed, graeme :(

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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Bo Berglund]

On Sun, 30 Oct 2016 22:36:59 +, Graeme Geldenhuys
 wrote:

>NNTP has many other benefits too:

Graeme, I really agree with all of the items in your list!
Good summary! :)


-- 
Bo Berglund
Developer in Sweden

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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2016-10-30 18:57, Tomas Hajny wrote:
> 
> Responding to fpc-other, because it's off-topic.

I can't see why... but okay.


> I don't miss any messages, i.e. it isn't a general problem (which
> obviously doesn't imply that there is no problem).

Over the years I have seen so many issues with the mailing lists.
Missing messages, messages being delivered out of sequence, some domains
not accept etc etc.


> Do you get spam from FPC lists very often? I believe that the existing
> controls block most if not all of it quite efficiently.

On occasion I do get spam via the mailing list, but I must admit the FPC
mailing list admin has done a good job in that regard. The situation is
much better than other mailing lists.

> On the other hand, NNTP is not guaranteed to be free of spam,

Yes, the Usenet Newsgroups are often pestered with spam. But if you
looked at any private NNTP servers, 99.99% of the time there is zero
spam messages. Plus the newsgroup admin can simply delete such a post,
and nobody else would see it - that can't be done with mailing lists.


> nor ensuring smooth
> communication for everybody either (as an example, it may not be
> accessible from corporate environments).

Over the years I have heard many say that, but I am yet to see such a
case. That obviously doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it is just very
unlikely. And even if it does, that is exactly why I host a Web
Interface to my news server - for those very rare edge cases.

I can also argue that many corporate environments would frown upon using
a company email account to register to a non-company related mailing
list. In the past I have also had some issues with company email
accounts and mailing lists - very dependent on how the company emails
are set up and how messages are being distributed.

NNTP has many other benefits too:
  * A clear separation of email and group discussions. Keep your
work and hobby communications separate.
  * A choice of newsgroup clients. Most newsgroup clients have much
better group communication features that email clients.
  * Space saving. With newsgroup client you have the choice to
store fully messages locally (handy for offline reading), or
simply store headers only, and the body gets retrieved on
demand.
  * More control over your own messages. eg: You can delete your
own posts. Very handy if you got carried away in a heated
discussion (such a frequent occurrence in the FPC mailing lists),
and would actually prefer to rather remove such a post 5 or
10 minutes later when you cooled down a bit.
  * No idiotic "spam filtering" applied by your email provider.
eg: Google and many others outright band ZIP attachments, even
though they my be perfectly legit. ZIP attachments are not the
only attachments they ban.
  * You can easily keep your identify (eg: email address) hidden,
yet still post messages. Some people like their privacy and
don't have access to multiple email accounts.
  * You can join a newsgroup at any time, yet easily tell your
news client to download the whole history of the group, or
just the last 1000 or 500 or whatever you want, messages.
No need to go to a separate 3rd party website to search through
historic conversations. It's all in one location.
  * Many news clients support the "portable apps" concept, where
everything can be run from a USB stick, and all settings and
messages are stored on the USB stick. Perfect for those
corporate environments (and keeping your work computer only
work related). Also, with such a portable install, all
message filters, message actions, last read statuses etc
are all remembered and travels with you.
  * No more receiving somebody else's "out of office" responses
while they are on holiday.

Hey, we even have an excellent news client written in Object Pascal -
just take a look an XanaNews! btw: XanaNews supports all the above
benefits and much much more.

 Github repository
   https://github.com/graemeg/xananews/

 XanaNews releases
  https://github.com/graemeg/xananews/releases



Regards,
  Graeme

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
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Re: [fpc-other] [fpc-pascal] Missing messages

[Tomas Hajny]

On Sun, October 30, 2016 19:11, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
> On 2016-10-30 17:24, Sven Barth wrote:


Responding to fpc-other, because it's off-topic.


>> Same here...

I don't miss any messages, i.e. it isn't a general problem (which
obviously doesn't imply that there is no problem).


> First Lazarus, now FPC. Can we not switch fpc-pascal to a NNTP newsgroup
> - no issues, no spam and more control over your own messages. After all,
> NNTP was designed from the ground up for group communications. My
> company server already hosts a couple of groups for various open source
> projects, for over 10 years. Adding one more will take all of 1 minute.

Do you get spam from FPC lists very often? I believe that the existing
controls block most if not all of it quite efficiently. On the other hand,
NNTP is not guaranteed to be free of spam, nor ensuring smooth
communication for everybody either (as an example, it may not be
accessible from corporate environments).

Tomas


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