Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[David Creamer]

I can do that with the TCS versions of Frame, so I except it is the same
with the standalone subscription.
However, I don't think you can install an earlier version than when you
started your subscription, but I'm not sure.

David Creamer
IDEAS Training

It used to be that you could have more than one version of a program
available in the Creative Cloud subscription. I would expect that to be the
same with FrameMaker? Can someone confirm that?


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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Craig Ede]

It used to be that you could have more than one version of a program available 
in the Creative Cloud subscription. I would expect that to be the same with 
FrameMaker? Can someone confirm that?

Craig
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[David Creamer]

Subscriptions include upgrades, but you are not required to upgrade if you
don't want to.

I subscribe to the Technical Communication Suite, which includes FrameMaker.
I usually have to wait a month or two before the Suite is updated to include
a new version of the software programs in the Suite. (The Suite costs $50
per month.)

David Creamer
IDEAS Training

If you buy the $360-a-year subscription, are upgrades included? If
not, how much are they?

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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Craig Ede]

Upgrades that occur during your subscription period are given to you. Of 
course, if you stop the subscription at the end of the year  you have nothing 
at that point.


Craig


From: Framers  on 
behalf of Robert Lauriston 
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 2:15 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

If you buy the $360-a-year subscription, are upgrades included? If
not, how much are they?
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Robert Lauriston]

If you buy the $360-a-year subscription, are upgrades included? If
not, how much are they?
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Craig Ede]

Two good points made in the last couple of emails on this topic:

Adobe charges too much for FM upgrades.

July would be the logical time to expect a new release.


Adobe could surprise us all with an upgrade price that is reasonable for a 
change.


Craig

BTW: If I had to pick and old version of FM that was the easiest and most 
productive to use, I'd pick the UNIX (Solaris) version of FM7. Unfortunately, 
there aren't many SUN machines out there anymore, so I have to view that 
feeling as simple nostalgia and just accept the improvements that have been 
made to the product despite having to run it under Window.



 snip...
Oddly, I find the rumors tend to peak
before Adobe announces a new version.
...unsnip
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Alan Litchfield]

I don't think the issue in this conversation is about Adobe abandoning 
FM, but that the corporate model Adobe chooses to use has effectively 
driven a lot of us old timers out the door, into the arms of its 
competitors. Yes, there have been a bunch of new features and added 
support for functions that required external plug-in support previously, 
but the interface is actually quite hard for me to navigate now, 
especially now that so many keyboard commands have disappeared or changed.


For me, my last favourite version was 7.2 on the Mac (which I still have 
running by the way, on a G5 tower). Sure it lacked all the fancy 
mod-cons of later versions but I could run that application for months 
at a time (without shutting down the computer or program) without issue. 
Can't say the same for the current version, I'm afraid. And as I said 
earlier, part of the reason was being locked out of the application due 
to licensing problems.


Version 5.5.2 on Linux was fun while it lasted. Of course, one does miss 
the hominess of Frame Corp, but that was a long time ago now.


Alan

--
Dr Alan Litchfield
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941
Auckland, New Zealand 1140

On 27/06/18 13:42, ideasli...@ideastraining.com wrote:

I've been hearing rumors of Adobe's abandonment of Frame for years, if not
decades. The timing of these rumors is almost as regular as an atomic
clock...

Abandonment hasn't happened yet. Oddly, I find the rumors tend to peak
before Adobe announces a new version. This list, or any public list, is not
a good way to make a decision about FrameMaker. Those that know can't say;
those that say usually don't know.

David Creamer
IDEAS Training
__
All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one
of the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate
away from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are
now using Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all
FM documents into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the
handwriting was on the wall.

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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[ideaslists]

I've been hearing rumors of Adobe's abandonment of Frame for years, if not
decades. The timing of these rumors is almost as regular as an atomic
clock... 

Abandonment hasn't happened yet. Oddly, I find the rumors tend to peak
before Adobe announces a new version. This list, or any public list, is not
a good way to make a decision about FrameMaker. Those that know can't say;
those that say usually don't know. 

David Creamer
IDEAS Training
__
All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one
of the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate
away from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are
now using Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all
FM documents into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the
handwriting was on the wall.  

___

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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Robert Lauriston]

Jeremy Griffith agreed with me on that. FM8 was the main version he
used to test MIF2Go.

All versions from FM9 on have the buggy UI layer that required me to
constantly take my hands off the keyboard.

Maxwell Hoffman followed up in 2012 and promised to get them fixed,
but they didn't make much progress, and then he moved to MadCap. To my
knowledge, it's still impossible to drive from the keyboard.

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 11:09 AM, Craig Ede  wrote:
> Forced to use FM8 for a year and a half for a recent job, I'd have to 
> disagree that it was "the last solid version". More recent versions of FM are 
> at least as equally solid and have a lot of nice features lacking in FM8.
>
> Craig
> 
> From: Framers  on 
> behalf of Robert Lauriston 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:45 PM
> To: Ken Poshedly; An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>
> The last solid version was FrameMaker 8. It had Unicode support but
> not the bizarre and buggy UI layer Adobe added in FM9.
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Syed Zaeem Hosain]

Same here.

Z

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 8:34 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Jack,
I just have not gotten around to unsubscribing to this list.  I probably will 
one day, but I have not yet decided to cut the cord completely.
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Craig Ede]

Forced to use FM8 for a year and a half for a recent job, I'd have to disagree 
that it was "the last solid version". More recent versions of FM are at least 
as equally solid and have a lot of nice features lacking in FM8.

Craig

From: Framers  on 
behalf of Robert Lauriston 
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:45 PM
To: Ken Poshedly; An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

The last solid version was FrameMaker 8. It had Unicode support but
not the bizarre and buggy UI layer Adobe added in FM9.


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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Peter Gold]

In reading some recent additions to this thread, I'm reminded that InDesign
is probably unsuited for creating help systems.

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Ken Poshedly 
wrote:

> Hey Pete,
>
> I can only wish that my company was open-minded enough to allow us to
> upgrade what we have and even use different tools if so required.
>
> Great explanation from you.
>
> -- Ken in Atlanta
>
>
> --
> *From:* Peter Gold 
> *To:* Ken Poshedly ; An email list for people
> using Adobe FrameMaker software. 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:34 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>
> Hi, Ken:
>
> Thanks for the brief trip through memory lane.
>
> As to InDesign as a replacement for FrameMaker for technical publications,
> IMO one major obstacle to this is that designers, who are its target
> audience, are predominantly *not* technical-content authors. The
> FrameMaker community of users over the years are mostly technical writers
> who create original content; they also apply these skills to shape the
> content originated by subject-matter experts across the spectrum of
> technical and scientific professions, and submitted to them, into usable
> technical information. In other words, they're language experts, teachers,
> trainers, instructors, testers, information organizers, fact-checkers,
> editors and clarifiers, of information, and also technical-document
> publishers. FM has been the right tool to enable individuals to do both of
> these complex sets of tasks simultaneously.
>
> It's not that InDesign isn't a good replacement. Since version CS 4, its
> book and related text-control tools compared well to FM's. But, it's just
> as difficult to get InDesign users to learn, create, and consistently use
> paragraph and character text styles (AKA FM "formats",) as it has been
> historically with Word, WordPerfect, FM, and others. In fact, InDesign has
> named styles for tables, objects, frames (containers), variables, page
> layouts, and so on.
>
> But the foundational difference in the user base is that FrameMaker users
> have been primarily content developers and InDesign users have been
> primarily content presenters. Different skill sets, different intents. The
> foundational difference in the use of the tools, I believe, is that
> FrameMaker document sets are often created with the expectation that there
> will be future revisions, which informs their design, structure, methods,
> and organization. InDesign document sets are more often seen as one-time
> productions. So, there's a cultural difference about ongoing maintenance
> and revision, more due to the mindsets of the users, than to requirements
> of the tools. It is possible to progress from FrameMaker to InDesign as a
> corporate technical-documentation publishing system, but it shouldn't
> become mandatory because FrameMaker was intentionally killed off.
>
> Progress is always slow and fast, depending on the pain and cost
> associated with it. Years ago, in the InDesign community users complained
> that their print provider demanded they submit material in specific
> non-InDesign formats, such as a certain level of PostScript, QuarkXpress,
> PDF or NOT PDF, etc. "It's too expensive to update our time-honored
> workflows and equipment. List members said, "Tell your providers that there
> are other providers who welcome your preferred output and they are hungry
> for business." One year, my wife and I each received our laminated and
> perforated new annual wallet health-plan ID cards on letter-size pages. The
> lamination covered the full page - card and huge blank area - front and
> back. I suggested to the membership director that I received other cards
> whose laminations only covered the card area, not the full page, and, with
> rising health-care costs, asking the vendor to change could save more than
> a few bucks. "They say their equipment can't do that." "Say other vendors
> would love your business." The next renewals came laminated only over the
> card areas. He said they saved bunches of money. Of course, my rates stayed
> the same.
>
> As has been noted more than a few times, even the cost of simply upgrading
> FM to the next release isn't trivial. Changing from one major tool to
> another, converting legacy content, retraining, etc., are beyond trivial.
> Staying with a proven workflow has lots of value. Nothing wrong with this
> model…EXCEPT WHEN THE VENDOR INVALIDATES PREVIOUSLY PURCHASED LICENSES!
> That's bad faith on a corporate level. Unacceptable.
>
> My 2 cents.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Ken Poshedly 
> wrote:
>
> I may be a little off-topic, but here go

Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Robert Lauriston]

The last solid version was FrameMaker 8. It had Unicode support but
not the bizarre and buggy UI layer Adobe added in FM9.

It still seems strange to me that Adobe used a sui generis UI layer
for a Windows-only application. Maybe it was cheaper to do that than
to map the core code that started in Unix to the Windows UI. If you
drill down in the UI, are there still some of those tiny, fixed-size
dialogs from the old days?

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 5:36 AM, Ken Poshedly  wrote:
> ...  many still say the last good, solid version was FM 7.0 ...
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Ken Poshedly]

Hey Pete,
I can only wish that my company was open-minded enough to allow us to upgrade 
what we have and even use different tools if so required.
Great explanation from you.
-- Ken in Atlanta

  From: Peter Gold 
 To: Ken Poshedly ; An email list for people using 
Adobe FrameMaker software.  
 Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 12:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
   
Hi, Ken:
Thanks for the brief trip through memory lane.
As to InDesign as a replacement for FrameMaker for technical publications, IMO 
one major obstacle to this is that designers, who are its target audience, are 
predominantly not technical-content authors. The FrameMaker community of users 
over the years are mostly technical writers who create original content; they 
also apply these skills to shape the content originated by subject-matter 
experts across the spectrum of technical and scientific professions, and 
submitted to them, into usable technical information. In other words, they're 
language experts, teachers, trainers, instructors, testers, information 
organizers, fact-checkers, editors and clarifiers, of information, and also 
technical-document publishers. FM has been the right tool to enable individuals 
to do both of these complex sets of tasks simultaneously.
It's not that InDesign isn't a good replacement. Since version CS 4, its book 
and related text-control tools compared well to FM's. But, it's just as 
difficult to get InDesign users to learn, create, and consistently use 
paragraph and character text styles (AKA FM "formats",) as it has been 
historically with Word, WordPerfect, FM, and others. In fact, InDesign has 
named styles for tables, objects, frames (containers), variables, page layouts, 
and so on.
But the foundational difference in the user base is that FrameMaker users have 
been primarily content developers and InDesign users have been primarily 
content presenters. Different skill sets, different intents. The foundational 
difference in the use of the tools, I believe, is that FrameMaker document sets 
are often created with the expectation that there will be future revisions, 
which informs their design, structure, methods, and organization. InDesign 
document sets are more often seen as one-time productions. So, there's a 
cultural difference about ongoing maintenance and revision, more due to the 
mindsets of the users, than to requirements of the tools. It is possible to 
progress from FrameMaker to InDesign as a corporate technical-documentation 
publishing system, but it shouldn't become mandatory because FrameMaker was 
intentionally killed off.
Progress is always slow and fast, depending on the pain and cost associated 
with it. Years ago, in the InDesign community users complained that their print 
provider demanded they submit material in specific non-InDesign formats, such 
as a certain level of PostScript, QuarkXpress, PDF or NOT PDF, etc. "It's too 
expensive to update our time-honored workflows and equipment. List members 
said, "Tell your providers that there are other providers who welcome your 
preferred output and they are hungry for business." One year, my wife and I 
each received our laminated and perforated new annual wallet health-plan ID 
cards on letter-size pages. The lamination covered the full page - card and 
huge blank area - front and back. I suggested to the membership director that I 
received other cards whose laminations only covered the card area, not the full 
page, and, with rising health-care costs, asking the vendor to change could 
save more than a few bucks. "They say their equipment can't do that." "Say 
other vendors would love your business." The next renewals came laminated only 
over the card areas. He said they saved bunches of money. Of course, my rates 
stayed the same.
As has been noted more than a few times, even the cost of simply upgrading FM 
to the next release isn't trivial. Changing from one major tool to another, 
converting legacy content, retraining, etc., are beyond trivial. Staying with a 
proven workflow has lots of value. Nothing wrong with this model…EXCEPT WHEN 
THE VENDOR INVALIDATES PREVIOUSLY PURCHASED LICENSES! That's bad faith on a 
corporate level. Unacceptable.
My 2 cents.


On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Ken Poshedly  wrote:

I may be a little off-topic, but here goes anyway . . . I've been using 
FrameMaker since 1998 when my company got version 5.5.6 and, as the saying 
goes, "I never looked back". We had been using WordPerfect for Windows (version 
7?) and I personally found it "clunky" to work with, especially in doing 
two-column layouts (text on left with one-column graphics on the right; yes, it 
can be done, but it was never as easy as with FM). While the rest of the tech 
pubs world is now up to FM2017, my current employer won't upgrade past FM 11.0 
(due to the "I-know-it-all" attitude of the guy who makes decisio

Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Peter Gold]

be really wanted to sell that fan-base on Adobe's own
> homegrown product, InDesign. There was always a periodic hue-and-cry about
> this and Adobe did wind up issuing updates over the years (although many
> still say the last good, solid version was FM 7.0). Adobe did actually drop
> the Macintoch version of FM.
> Some folks compare Adobe tech support with "customer service" by Comcast
> (the cable TV company). Solely based in India and sort of nonexistant and
> super-deficient even if/when can get someone on the phone line.
>
> So, nothing is forever and Adobe will someday probably deep-six FM for no
> good reason (just like NBC just cancelled the great TV show "Timeless",
> resulting in a HUGE online backlash about that. Lower-than-desired ratings
> don't seem to matter for other shows that still remain, however.).
>
> I'm old enough to remember when competitors compared their "word
> processing software" to WordStar by MicroPro. I loved that program and all
> its keyboard shortcuts (oh, wait a minute, that's all we had because
> mouse-pointers hadn't yet made the scene). Though it has a rockier history
> than FM, it is still used, but just barely. There's a great write-up about
> it on Wikipedia. (The FM Wikipedia write-up is not nearly as extensive.)
> And let's not forget the late, great Ventura Publisher which was
> distributed by Xerox but is owned by Corel since 1993 and is a mere shadow
> of its once glorious self before the Corel purchase.
>
> I wonder how Corel supports Corel Ventura (still available but supposedly
> last updated in 2002).
>
>
>
>   From: "Harding, Dan" 
>  To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. <
> framers@lists.frameusers.com>
>  Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 7:20 AM
>  Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>
> Program software, yes. Customer support and licensing, no.
>
> At times it feels like FrameMaker is "abandonware", at least with respect
> to the attitudes coming from within Adobe... a begrudged necessary evil
> that no one there really wants the hassles of dealing with, hoping that it
> will just die and go away.
>
> -Dan
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers 
> On Behalf Of Shmuel Wolfson
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 3:55 AM
> To: Peter Gold ; Framers - frameusers.com <
> framers@lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>
> Why does everyone feel that Adobe is abandoning FrameMaker? In the latest
> version they redid the menus and added a shortcut to finding menu items.
> They also claim to have fixed some long-standing bugs.
>
> My only gripe is the high price for upgrades. But they do seem to be
> working on the program.
>
> --
> Shmuel Wolfson
> Technical Writer
> 058-763-7133
>
>
> On 26-Jun-18 3:25 AM, Peter Gold wrote:
> > These recent threads about licensing and related Adobe corporate-level
> > failings, and the associated sense of abandonment that's been voiced
> > by long-long-long-time FrameMaker users who represent a community of
> > talented technical authors and publishers prompt me to think "Is there
> > any next step that Adobe might take?" Well, if anyone at Adobe with
> > any power to communicate with the higher Adobe Powers That Be reads
> > this list (or if any members have contacts with folks who have the
> > ability to communicate with those APTBs,) how about floating the idea
> > that if Adobe's no longer interested in supporting FM and its
> > community of users, perhaps it's time to think about finding a company
> > that would like to buy it. FM might be only a mere fragment of a niche
> > in Adobe's spectrum of products and services and income streams, but
> > to a smaller enterprise, it could be a substantial business.
> >
> > Just another wild idea. Anyone out there? Bueller?
> > ___
> >
> > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> >
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> > homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at
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> >
>
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)]

Rick,
I still consider myself a bit of a novice in Flare since, in my opinion, it has 
a steep learning curve.  But Madcap offers plenty of videos and free webinars 
on the basics of the software and my associates have shared many helpful tips 
and suggestions, so we all have gotten through the migration relatively 
painless.  We have had some issues with Madcap support, specifically when we 
ran into connectivity issues using its source control option to integrate with 
Microsoft Team Foundation Server.  They seemed to be very hesitant to get 
involved thinking it was an MS issue and not a Flare issue.  We were left to 
handle most of these source control issues with our companies' TFS 
administrators and developers.   But that has been the only blip in what has 
otherwise been very good support.  Their reps gets back to us with reported 
issues within a few  hours (our support plan provides 24 hour email support as 
opposed to phone support)  and they are usually very responsive and helpful in 
issue resolution.  Overall, I am very pleased with the application.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of Rick Quatro
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Mark,

Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what your 
satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-729-6746 NEW!



-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one of 
the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate away 
from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are now using 
Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all FM documents 
into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the handwriting was on 
the wall.  


Mark Eichelberger
Senior Technical Writer
Credit Union Solutions
Fiserv
Office: 1-610-233-4534
www.fiserv.com 
FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: Connect Fiserv  
•  Careers: Join Fiserv





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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Grant Hogarth]

Some of us use both; different clients have different requirements.
Grant

-- Original Message --
From: "Jack DeLand" 
To: "'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'" 


Sent: 6/26/2018 9:39:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Few people are more Flare-dedicated than me, but I don't think I'll 
leave this list, either. Too much good info & good people, plus I still 
use FM for my book.



Jack DeLand • Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)

Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:34 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 


Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Jack,
I just have not gotten around to unsubscribing to this list.  I 
probably will one day, but I have not yet decided to cut the cord 
completely.


-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On 
Behalf Of Jack DeLand

Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:26 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 


Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

And now I wonder how many closet Flare users are on this list. 

Jack DeLand • Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of Rick Quatro

Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 


Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Mark,

Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear 
what your satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.


Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-729-6746 NEW!



-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf Of 
Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)

Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 


Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are 
one of the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and 
migrate away from FM.  All of the technical publications staff 
(including me) are now using Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 
2 year migration of all FM documents into Flare.   It was a bit sad to 
say goodbye to FM, but the handwriting was on the wall.



Mark Eichelberger
Senior Technical Writer
Credit Union Solutions
Fiserv
Office: 1-610-233-4534
www.fiserv.com
FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: Connect 
Fiserv  •  Careers: Join Fiserv






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Send administra

Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Jack DeLand]

Few people are more Flare-dedicated than me, but I don't think I'll leave this 
list, either. Too much good info & good people, plus I still use FM for my book.


Jack DeLand • Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/ 

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:34 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Jack,
I just have not gotten around to unsubscribing to this list.  I probably will 
one day, but I have not yet decided to cut the cord completely.

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of Jack DeLand
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:26 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

And now I wonder how many closet Flare users are on this list. 

Jack DeLand • Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/ 

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Rick Quatro
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Mark,

Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what your 
satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-729-6746 NEW!



-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one of 
the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate away 
from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are now using 
Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all FM documents 
into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the handwriting was on 
the wall.  


Mark Eichelberger
Senior Technical Writer
Credit Union Solutions
Fiserv
Office: 1-610-233-4534
www.fiserv.com 
FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: Connect Fiserv  
•  Careers: Join Fiserv





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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)]

Jack,
I just have not gotten around to unsubscribing to this list.  I probably will 
one day, but I have not yet decided to cut the cord completely.

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of Jack DeLand
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:26 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

And now I wonder how many closet Flare users are on this list. 

Jack DeLand • Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/ 

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Rick Quatro
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Mark,

Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what your 
satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-729-6746 NEW!



-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one of 
the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate away 
from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are now using 
Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all FM documents 
into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the handwriting was on 
the wall.  


Mark Eichelberger
Senior Technical Writer
Credit Union Solutions
Fiserv
Office: 1-610-233-4534
www.fiserv.com 
FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: Connect Fiserv  
•  Careers: Join Fiserv





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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Jack DeLand]

And now I wonder how many closet Flare users are on this list. 

Jack DeLand • Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/ 

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Rick Quatro
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 11:25 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Mark,

Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what your 
satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-729-6746 NEW!



-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one of 
the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate away 
from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are now using 
Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all FM documents 
into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the handwriting was on 
the wall.  


Mark Eichelberger
Senior Technical Writer
Credit Union Solutions
Fiserv
Office: 1-610-233-4534
www.fiserv.com 
FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: Connect Fiserv  
•  Careers: Join Fiserv





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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Rick Quatro]

Mark,

Now that you are a couple of years into it, it would be good to hear what your 
satisfaction is with Flare versus FrameMaker. Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-729-6746 NEW!



-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 10:55 AM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one of 
the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate away 
from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are now using 
Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all FM documents 
into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the handwriting was on 
the wall.  


Mark Eichelberger
Senior Technical Writer
Credit Union Solutions
Fiserv
Office: 1-610-233-4534
www.fiserv.com 
FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: Connect Fiserv  
•  Careers: Join Fiserv





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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Eichelberger, Mark (King of Prussia)]

All of these posts regarding Adobe's poor support/abandonment of FM are one of 
the reasons why my company decided to focus on another tool and migrate away 
from FM.  All of the technical publications staff (including me) are now using 
Madcap Flare and we have just completed a 2 year migration of all FM documents 
into Flare.   It was a bit sad to say goodbye to FM, but the handwriting was on 
the wall.  


Mark Eichelberger
Senior Technical Writer
Credit Union Solutions
Fiserv
Office: 1-610-233-4534
www.fiserv.com 
FORTUNE World's Most Admired Companies® 2014 | 2015 | 2016
Facebook: Like Fiserv  •  Twitter: Follow @Fiserv  •  LinkedIn: Connect Fiserv  
•  Careers: Join Fiserv





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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Ken Poshedly]

I may be a little off-topic, but here goes anyway . . . I've been using 
FrameMaker since 1998 when my company got version 5.5.6 and, as the saying 
goes, "I never looked back". We had been using WordPerfect for Windows (version 
7?) and I personally found it "clunky" to work with, especially in doing 
two-column layouts (text on left with one-column graphics on the right; yes, it 
can be done, but it was never as easy as with FM). While the rest of the tech 
pubs world is now up to FM2017, my current employer won't upgrade past FM 11.0 
(due to the "I-know-it-all" attitude of the guy who makes decisions about my 
group; another story for another day). 

Anyway . . . I recall in the early 2000's the fairly numerous posts that Adobe 
(which had purchased Frame Technology Corp.), was not really interested in 
upgrading it, but had gotten what it wanted (money from new sales and a huge 
fan-base) and was really trying to slowly let it "die on the vine" because 
Adobe really wanted to sell that fan-base on Adobe's own homegrown product, 
InDesign. There was always a periodic hue-and-cry about this and Adobe did wind 
up issuing updates over the years (although many still say the last good, solid 
version was FM 7.0). Adobe did actually drop the Macintoch version of FM.
Some folks compare Adobe tech support with "customer service" by Comcast (the 
cable TV company). Solely based in India and sort of nonexistant and 
super-deficient even if/when can get someone on the phone line.

So, nothing is forever and Adobe will someday probably deep-six FM for no good 
reason (just like NBC just cancelled the great TV show "Timeless", resulting in 
a HUGE online backlash about that. Lower-than-desired ratings don't seem to 
matter for other shows that still remain, however.).

I'm old enough to remember when competitors compared their "word processing 
software" to WordStar by MicroPro. I loved that program and all its keyboard 
shortcuts (oh, wait a minute, that's all we had because mouse-pointers hadn't 
yet made the scene). Though it has a rockier history than FM, it is still used, 
but just barely. There's a great write-up about it on Wikipedia. (The FM 
Wikipedia write-up is not nearly as extensive.) And let's not forget the late, 
great Ventura Publisher which was distributed by Xerox but is owned by Corel 
since 1993 and is a mere shadow of its once glorious self before the Corel 
purchase.

I wonder how Corel supports Corel Ventura (still available but supposedly last 
updated in 2002).



  From: "Harding, Dan" 
 To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 
 
 Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 7:20 AM
 Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
   
Program software, yes. Customer support and licensing, no.

At times it feels like FrameMaker is "abandonware", at least with respect to 
the attitudes coming from within Adobe... a begrudged necessary evil that no 
one there really wants the hassles of dealing with, hoping that it will just 
die and go away.

-Dan

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Shmuel Wolfson
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 3:55 AM
To: Peter Gold ; Framers - frameusers.com 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Why does everyone feel that Adobe is abandoning FrameMaker? In the latest 
version they redid the menus and added a shortcut to finding menu items. They 
also claim to have fixed some long-standing bugs.

My only gripe is the high price for upgrades. But they do seem to be working on 
the program.

--
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
058-763-7133


On 26-Jun-18 3:25 AM, Peter Gold wrote:
> These recent threads about licensing and related Adobe corporate-level 
> failings, and the associated sense of abandonment that's been voiced 
> by long-long-long-time FrameMaker users who represent a community of 
> talented technical authors and publishers prompt me to think "Is there 
> any next step that Adobe might take?" Well, if anyone at Adobe with 
> any power to communicate with the higher Adobe Powers That Be reads 
> this list (or if any members have contacts with folks who have the 
> ability to communicate with those APTBs,) how about floating the idea 
> that if Adobe's no longer interested in supporting FM and its 
> community of users, perhaps it's time to think about finding a company 
> that would like to buy it. FM might be only a mere fragment of a niche 
> in Adobe's spectrum of products and services and income streams, but 
> to a smaller enterprise, it could be a substantial business.
>
> Just another wild idea. Anyone out there? Bueller?
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's 
> homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com Ar

Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Harding, Dan]

Program software, yes. Customer support and licensing, no.

At times it feels like FrameMaker is "abandonware", at least with respect to 
the attitudes coming from within Adobe... a begrudged necessary evil that no 
one there really wants the hassles of dealing with, hoping that it will just 
die and go away.

-Dan

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Shmuel Wolfson
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 3:55 AM
To: Peter Gold ; Framers - frameusers.com 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Why does everyone feel that Adobe is abandoning FrameMaker? In the latest 
version they redid the menus and added a shortcut to finding menu items. They 
also claim to have fixed some long-standing bugs.

My only gripe is the high price for upgrades. But they do seem to be working on 
the program.

--
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
058-763-7133


On 26-Jun-18 3:25 AM, Peter Gold wrote:
> These recent threads about licensing and related Adobe corporate-level 
> failings, and the associated sense of abandonment that's been voiced 
> by long-long-long-time FrameMaker users who represent a community of 
> talented technical authors and publishers prompt me to think "Is there 
> any next step that Adobe might take?" Well, if anyone at Adobe with 
> any power to communicate with the higher Adobe Powers That Be reads 
> this list (or if any members have contacts with folks who have the 
> ability to communicate with those APTBs,) how about floating the idea 
> that if Adobe's no longer interested in supporting FM and its 
> community of users, perhaps it's time to think about finding a company 
> that would like to buy it. FM might be only a mere fragment of a niche 
> in Adobe's spectrum of products and services and income streams, but 
> to a smaller enterprise, it could be a substantial business.
>
> Just another wild idea. Anyone out there? Bueller?
> ___
>
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Shmuel Wolfson]

Why does everyone feel that Adobe is abandoning FrameMaker? In the 
latest version they redid the menus and added a shortcut to finding menu 
items. They also claim to have fixed some long-standing bugs.


My only gripe is the high price for upgrades. But they do seem to be 
working on the program.


--
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
058-763-7133


On 26-Jun-18 3:25 AM, Peter Gold wrote:

These recent threads about licensing and related Adobe corporate-level
failings, and the associated sense of abandonment that's been voiced by
long-long-long-time FrameMaker users who represent a community of talented
technical authors and publishers prompt me to think "Is there any next step
that Adobe might take?" Well, if anyone at Adobe with any power to
communicate with the higher Adobe Powers That Be reads this list (or if any
members have contacts with folks who have the ability to communicate with
those APTBs,) how about floating the idea that if Adobe's no longer
interested in supporting FM and its community of users, perhaps it's time
to think about finding a company that would like to buy it. FM might be
only a mere fragment of a niche in Adobe's spectrum of products and
services and income streams, but to a smaller enterprise, it could be a
substantial business.

Just another wild idea. Anyone out there? Bueller?
___

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Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Peter Gold]

These recent threads about licensing and related Adobe corporate-level
failings, and the associated sense of abandonment that's been voiced by
long-long-long-time FrameMaker users who represent a community of talented
technical authors and publishers prompt me to think "Is there any next step
that Adobe might take?" Well, if anyone at Adobe with any power to
communicate with the higher Adobe Powers That Be reads this list (or if any
members have contacts with folks who have the ability to communicate with
those APTBs,) how about floating the idea that if Adobe's no longer
interested in supporting FM and its community of users, perhaps it's time
to think about finding a company that would like to buy it. FM might be
only a mere fragment of a niche in Adobe's spectrum of products and
services and income streams, but to a smaller enterprise, it could be a
substantial business.

Just another wild idea. Anyone out there? Bueller?
___

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Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Syed Zaeem Hosain]

Hi, Alan.

Like you, some time back, I also switched to LaTeX for all my new work. A 
modern LaTeX editor, combined with relativley instant PDF output viewing, is is 
well sufficient for my needs!

Ye, I still have FrameMaker 12 for any old documents for which I need simple 
edits, but it is telling that I have not even loaded FrameMaker on my new 
laptop (now more than 6 or 7 months old). 

Whenever I know I am going to do a ton of edits on a given document, I take the 
text and bring it to LaTeX instead - takes me a couple of days at best, and 
then I am off to the races.

I was a very early user (started with FrameMaker on a Sun 3/50 in 1988), so 
this is a tad sad, but ... 

My reason was the high prices of version updates in the past few years (since 
version 8 or 9 on). Since I am currently on version 12, any upgrade path would 
be at full price and I am not interested in doing that at all.

Regards,

Z

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Alan Litchfield
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 4:31 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

Thanks for the update Tammy.

It is pretty much as I predicted and as a matter of interest, this week I also 
got confirmation that my licensing issue will remain unaddressed by Adobe.

These days, FM makes a very small proportion of my time and I am thinking about 
cancelling my monthly sub. It will be a shame to do that after more than two 
decades, but hey…

I have not looked at Flare closely but in NZ, Author-It has a larger footprint. 
Most of my work these days is focussed on LaTeX.

Alan
--
Dr Alan Litchfield
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941
Auckland, New Zealand 1140

> On 22/06/2018, at 11:04,  
>  wrote:
> 
> So, I had some offlist inquiries about how the licensing issue went 
> with Adobe, and in a nutshell, it didn't.  Here's a quick summary:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.Adobe wants proof of purchase or invoice for this extremely old
> software. I bought it so long ago (when it first came out), that I 
> simply do not have that anymore. I do have a registered product, but 
> evidently that is not good enough.
> 2.Adobe provided an email to me that stated that they would be more
> than happy to charge me out the wazoo for upgrading to the latest and 
> greatest subscription version of CS - Basically, pay every year for 
> what I paid for this one time perpetual license.
> 3.They also sent the email below:
> 
> 
> 
> You might have been using this license for last couple of years. You 
> are facing this issue now because Adobe is running a new program 
> <http://www.adobe.com/genuine.html> http://www.adobe.com/genuine.html 
> under this, we are running a validation test to check the software is 
> properly licensed or not. We introduced this in 2016 and gradually we 
> are going to cover all our customers those who have unknowingly 
> purchased the non genuine product.  Earlier Adobe was not aware of 
> this counterfeit issue, so even those invalid serial keys were able to 
> register and use it without any interruption, but after Adobe notice 
> this issue all those in valid serial keys were flagged out.
> 
> Uhm, OK, but the whole irony is that Adobe is notorious for licensing 
> problems with valid licenses, so how on earth could an invalid serial 
> number even be allowed to be registered? I don't buy that at all. I 
> can even remember a few times entering a license number wrong for a 
> product and getting an error message and having to double-check and 
> redo my entry!!! So an invalid number going through unscathed for 
> multiple installations throughout the years and then blam, it is dead in the 
> water??
> 
> 
> 
> Compare this experience to the absolutely incredible one that I had w/ 
> Madcap Flare:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.Had a license transferred to me (the whole process took less than 30
> minutes.)
> 2.Called support to activate the transferred license - someone
> answered like in 5 seconds  vs. the hour wait on hold with Adobe w/out 
> any help whatsoever.
> 3.Provided my identifying information, CRS replied "one sec," and
> voila, license was activated, and now working beautifully in Flare.
> 4.Just downloaded the latest and greatest version of Flare and
> automatically get one month of PLATINUM support (yes, PLATINUM 
> support) for free. Have a whole list of questions I want to ask, 
> submitted them to MadCap and they are setting a specific time for me 
> to use this support to get all my questions answered.
> 
> 
> 
> Final result - Flare purchased and is being used for a new client 
> project with the prospect of another soon. Adobe was absolutely NO 
> longer in the running. . . .I will have to stick w/ Adobe for my long 
> time clie

Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Jack DeLand]

For single sourcing, Flare is unmatched, but it will never replace FM for page 
layout. However, CSS is a fascinating world. 

Jack DeLand • Principal
Adam Charles Consulting, LLC

734 972 3026

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackdeland/
http://www.adamcharlesconsulting.com/ 

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of D L Reynolds
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 11:42 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

What a shame. I remember when the Adobe folks were the good guys.

Tammy, please keep us updated on your Flare experience.

   — Donna Reynolds
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[D L Reynolds]

What a shame. I remember when the Adobe folks were the good guys.

Tammy, please keep us updated on your Flare experience.

   — Donna Reynolds
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Peter Gold]

umwritingllc.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers
>  On
> Behalf Of Rick Quatro
> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 8:30 PM
> To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'
> 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>
> I agree that this is a situation that should have never happened. Because
> of
> some software pirates, Adobe puts its loyal customers through grief with
> all
> of the activation and licensing issues. Tammy is one of the many long-time
> Adobe customers that have loudly evangelized for Adobe products over the
> years. She shouldn't have to beg to activate a program that she already
> paid
> for and registered.
>
> Adobe has its cash cow CC subscription program but has let its customer
> support and quality control degrade over the years. It took me about 45
> minutes to downgrade my CC subscription to a single product subscription
> (InDesign). This somehow caused my installed CS6 programs to stop working.
> Another long chat session and they finally got it working. Then I was
> double
> billed on my final month of the full subscription ($53.99 for full CC and
> $22.67 for InDesign). I didn't bother to contact them about that; it wasn't
> worth another 45 minutes or more to get a refund.
>
> Years ago, Quark was the company that treated their customers like dirt.
> Now
> it is Adobe. I love FrameMaker for its features and its ability to be
> automated, but its quality and workmanship is disappointing. Anyway, I
> don't
> rant very much and don't like to be negative, but I know that Tammy and I
> aren't the only ones that are frustrated with Adobe Systems.
>
> Rick Quatro
> Carmen Publishing Inc.
> r...@frameexpert.com
> 585-729-6746 NEW!
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers 
> On
> Behalf Of tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 7:04 PM
> To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'
> 
> Subject: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing
>
> So, I had some offlist inquiries about how the licensing issue went with
> Adobe, and in a nutshell, it didn't.  Here's a quick summary:
>
>
>
> 1.  Adobe wants proof of purchase or invoice for this extremely old
> software. I bought it so long ago (when it first came out), that I simply
> do
> not have that anymore. I do have a registered product, but evidently that
> is
> not good enough.
> 2.  Adobe provided an email to me that stated that they would be more
> than happy to charge me out the wazoo for upgrading to the latest and
> greatest subscription version of CS - Basically, pay every year for what I
> paid for this one time perpetual license.
> 3.  They also sent the email below:
>
>
>
> You might have been using this license for last couple of years. You are
> facing this issue now because Adobe is running a new program
> <http://www.adobe.com/genuine.html> http://www.adobe.com/genuine.html
> under
> this, we are running a validation test to check the software is properly
> licensed or not. We introduced this in 2016 and gradually we are going to
> cover all our customers those who have unknowingly purchased the non
> genuine
> product.  Earlier Adobe was not aware of this counterfeit issue, so even
> those invalid serial keys were able to register and use it without any
> interruption, but after Adobe notice this issue all those in valid serial
> keys were flagged out.
>
> Uhm, OK, but the whole irony is that Adobe is notorious for licensing
> problems with valid licenses, so how on earth could an invalid serial
> number
> even be allowed to be registered? I don't buy that at all. I can even
> remember a few times entering a license number wrong for a product and
> getting an error message and having to double-check and redo my entry!!! So
> an invalid number going through unscathed for multiple installations
> throughout the years and then blam, it is dead in the water??
>
>
>
> Compare this experience to the absolutely incredible one that I had w/
> Madcap Flare:
>
>
>
> 1.  Had a license transferred to me (the whole process took less than
> 30
> minutes.)
> 2.  Called support to activate the transferred license - someone
> answered like in 5 seconds  vs. the hour wait on hold with Adobe w/out any
> help whatsoever.
> 3.  Provided my identifying information, CRS replied "one sec," and
> voila, license was activated, and now working beautifully in Flare.
> 4.  Just downloaded the latest and greatest version of Flare and
> automatically get one month of PLATINUM support (yes, PLATINUM support) for
> free. Have a whole list of questions I want to ask, submitted them to
> M

Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Peter Gold]

Hi, Tammy and all Framers:

In response to a comment I posted on this list a few weeks ago I received a
couple of responses from alleged Adobe folks, both private and public.

One in particular seemed to make the best and clearest statement of the
problem. It was so innocent and naïve I won't repeat it here, because I
think would embarrass the sender. It said something like, IIRC, "please
tell me the whole problem and I'll do my best to fix it."

Well, IMO, the problem is that FrameMaker's been a neglected product line
for decades, as Adobe's corporate growth and profitability dwarfed little
FM's niche-ness. Hey, it's a fabulous tool – a foundational component of
the technical information and publishing industry that underlies most of
the major companies and technologies that the current global commerce world
relies upon. It's been a key player to the development of the information
age's infrastructure. But, like water to fish, it's so ubiquitous, it's
invisible.

The problem with Adobe's treatment of FM is basically that it's been kicked
down the road each time a new shiny tool or market takes the attention of
whoever is put in charge of this dependable runt of the product and service
litter. That's how corporate management works. So, over the years and
changes in development, marketing, and other strategic directions,
different teams have inherited the task of keeping FM viable at minimal
cost and impact to the larger corporate evolution.

Now that some viable competitive tools have evolved, perhaps FM's future is
even bleaker. That it's survived for so long is as much a testimony to the
industries, companies, and users who've employed it for its core purpose -
capturing, organizing, repurposing, and distributing the technical
information that dedicated technical writers have distilled from masses of
data, research, and hands-on trial-and-error experience with products, into
useful information for those who make things work for the benefit of others.

So, each time an Adobe team hands FrameMaker of to a new group that's
"tasked" (I hate that term,) with improving, fixing, maintaining, evolving
it, the continuity is broken, some history is lost, and folks on the new
team need to start over. Tech writers used to describe their job as
"changing tires on a moving car." The new teams and their members are in
the same situation.

The two main problem areas that have resulted from this flawed approach are:

* technical - keeping the product working and fixing new bugs that arise
when developing new product features, and from failed fixes of old ones.

* support and licensing - helping users get the result that the product is
intended to provide, and keeping their purchase history intact and valid.

Technical stuff can usually be attended to by skilled support techs. Some
problems require exceptionally well-skilled techs, with the dedication to
stay with a customer until an issue is solved.

Licensing is a separate domain. From a corporate view, it's more about
maximizing revenue.

So the responses that Tammy's documenting here really point to how
corporate revenue management is being done, and the wall that's blocking
any recognition of what a customer deserves after paying a company for a
product, license, service, and value.

My professional life has changed, so I don't actually use FM any more. If I
had to deal with this problem, however, I'd try to get it fixed by
escalating it. However, I don't mean the usual escalation to a higher-level
tech-support tier, or a higher-level customer-service manager, because it's
become clear that folks at these levels aren't able to break through the
policy walls that they quote as reasons for denying access to
previously-purchased licenses. I'd suggest trying to disrupt the
ineffective incremental up-a-level-at-a-time escalation method, and instead
starting at the very top - the CEO. Perhaps start a write-in campaign site,
collect signatures, and keep up the pressure. People at the top are not
stupid. They get it when plenty of major corporate users who represent
plenty of licenses in major corporate enterprise customer companies and
partners. After all, while FM itself might not be a big Adobe revenue
chunk, large corporate software, cloud, and service customers are Adobe's
bread and butter.

Often folks on this list cite the problem of getting buy-in from their own
PTB (Powers That Be) to get approval to buy a product, subscription, or
service, that can make them more productive. It's often seen that this is a
competitive struggle within one's organization. Well, look at this Adobe
licensing stymie as an opportunity to enlist your own corporate PTB
coooperate with you to advocate the need to have Adobe honor its
commitment. You know, CEO-to-CEO level, a corporate summit, you might call
it.

Hey, it could happen!

Just a thought...


On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 6:04 PM  wrote:

> So, I had some offlist inquiries about how the licensing issue went with
> Adobe, and in a 

Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[tammyvb]

So, I debated a bit about posting this information to the list, but decided
in the end that it would be appropriate as it details Adobe's final actions
on this issue.

This morning, at 7 am my phone ring and caller ID stated that it was Adobe.
I wasn't sure what to expect when I picked up the phone, but it was an Adobe
representative who quickly got to the point and stated the following: "We
have processed your request and have issued you a genuine Adobe serial
number for your CS6 suite. We have also updated your Adobe account to
reflect this new serial number. It is effective immediately. Also, I will be
receiving an email with a link to a survey about your customer satisfaction
and kindly fill out and let us know that you were satisfied with how we
resolved your issue." I politely stated my thanks and hung up. 

I don't know whether to laugh or cry about the request of a customer
satisfaction survey. . . . I won't be an a***hole, but at the same time, I
wish there was a place to write a lengthy response that wondered why it took
an act of G*D to get this resolved for a longtime customer. I guess what
really fried my about this one is that licensing issues with Adobe have cost
me (and so many others) days of billable work, time, and just plain sanity
and I am sooo over it. Everybody remember the cluster that was
the Adobe Framemaker 10 licensing issue - the one where, apparently, the
licensing adhered to the Mayan end of civilization timeline and all
perpetual licenses just died on 1/1/13? That cost so many of us several days
of time and money.

And for another time - I had a legally purchased (from Adobe) copy of
Acrobat Pro 9 installed and I decided to update to 10. Again, I purchased
from Adobe and when I went to install on my new system, I got flagged w/ the
message that I was installing an upgrade license and that I did not have a
previously installed copy that would allow the installation of the upgrade
to continue, even though I provided the valid license number for 9 at the
prompt that stated enter your previous valid license ID to continue. That
was a whole series of events to get the challenge code, etc. which cost me a
good couple of hours. Another time, and don't ask me how this happened, when
I was installing Acrobat Pro 10 on another new system, I was primed and
ready for the challenge prompt, but lo!!! Somehow, someway, my registered
version of 9 was NOT showing up as a registered product in my list of
products and that took ranting and raving again on the forum until Priyank
stepped in, did some research and found out that someway, somehow, Adobe had
moved my individually purchased and registered license information out of my
account and had it marked as a volume license~!!! No one could explain that
to me, so it was yet another tortuous path to get the all righted in the
world. As yes, Adobe can get in to your account, because along w/ today's
phone call, I also received the message that Adobe had already updated this
new licensing information in my account and yep - when I logged in and
checked, there was the new serial number.

I really, really hope that Adobe has stepped up to the plate and resolved
licensing issues for others out there who are experiencing this ridiculous
issue. It shouldn't be like coming Mt. Everest w/out oxygen to get customer
service and resolution. (Well, actually, climbing Mt. Everest w/out oxygen
is probably simpler and safer, but I that was the best analogy I could think
of in terms of how dangerous and unpredictable things can become!)

I do appreciate all the support on and offlist and the many thoughts of
commiseration I received. I just hope some of this good karma can rub off on
you!!

TGIF!!!

TVB



Tammy Van Boening
Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
www.spectrumwritingllc.com

-Original Message-
From: Framers
 On
Behalf Of Rick Quatro
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 8:30 PM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'

Subject: Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

I agree that this is a situation that should have never happened. Because of
some software pirates, Adobe puts its loyal customers through grief with all
of the activation and licensing issues. Tammy is one of the many long-time
Adobe customers that have loudly evangelized for Adobe products over the
years. She shouldn't have to beg to activate a program that she already paid
for and registered.

Adobe has its cash cow CC subscription program but has let its customer
support and quality control degrade over the years. It took me about 45
minutes to downgrade my CC subscription to a single product subscription
(InDesign). This somehow caused my installed CS6 programs to stop working.
Another long chat session and they finally got it working. Then I was double
billed on my final month of the full subscription ($53.99 for full CC and
$22.67 for InDesign). I didn't bother to contact them about that; it wasn't
worth 

Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Jules Harrell]

Tammy, this is a licensing issue that is happening worldwide. What they
have is discovery software to see who's doing what and they can charge you
now for holding onto that license and attempting to use the software. I
have a friend who is a software contract negotiator. She's explained this
to me many times. I hope you don't end up getting audited and charged for
using software that you actually haven't used. Email me offline:
photonicg...@hotmail.com if you have questions.
Jules

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 7:04 PM,  wrote:

> So, I had some offlist inquiries about how the licensing issue went with
> Adobe, and in a nutshell, it didn't.  Here's a quick summary:
>
>
>
> 1.  Adobe wants proof of purchase or invoice for this extremely old
> software. I bought it so long ago (when it first came out), that I simply
> do
> not have that anymore. I do have a registered product, but evidently that
> is
> not good enough.
> 2.  Adobe provided an email to me that stated that they would be more
> than happy to charge me out the wazoo for upgrading to the latest and
> greatest subscription version of CS - Basically, pay every year for what I
> paid for this one time perpetual license.
> 3.  They also sent the email below:
>
>
>
> You might have been using this license for last couple of years. You are
> facing this issue now because Adobe is running a new program
>  http://www.adobe.com/genuine.html
> under
> this, we are running a validation test to check the software is properly
> licensed or not. We introduced this in 2016 and gradually we are going to
> cover all our customers those who have unknowingly purchased the non
> genuine
> product.  Earlier Adobe was not aware of this counterfeit issue, so even
> those invalid serial keys were able to register and use it without any
> interruption, but after Adobe notice this issue all those in valid serial
> keys were flagged out.
>
> Uhm, OK, but the whole irony is that Adobe is notorious for licensing
> problems with valid licenses, so how on earth could an invalid serial
> number
> even be allowed to be registered? I don't buy that at all. I can even
> remember a few times entering a license number wrong for a product and
> getting an error message and having to double-check and redo my entry!!! So
> an invalid number going through unscathed for multiple installations
> throughout the years and then blam, it is dead in the water??
>
>
>
> Compare this experience to the absolutely incredible one that I had w/
> Madcap Flare:
>
>
>
> 1.  Had a license transferred to me (the whole process took less than
> 30
> minutes.)
> 2.  Called support to activate the transferred license - someone
> answered like in 5 seconds  vs. the hour wait on hold with Adobe w/out any
> help whatsoever.
> 3.  Provided my identifying information, CRS replied "one sec," and
> voila, license was activated, and now working beautifully in Flare.
> 4.  Just downloaded the latest and greatest version of Flare and
> automatically get one month of PLATINUM support (yes, PLATINUM support) for
> free. Have a whole list of questions I want to ask, submitted them to
> MadCap
> and they are setting a specific time for me to use this support to get all
> my questions answered.
>
>
>
> Final result - Flare purchased and is being used for a new client project
> with the prospect of another soon. Adobe was absolutely NO longer in the
> running. . . .I will have to stick w/ Adobe for my long time clients that
> know it and have been using the setup that I established for them - but
> going forward, unless a client really balks, it's Flare.
>
>
>
> TVB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Tammy Van Boening
>
> Principal/Owner
>
> Spectrum Writing, LLC
>
> www.spectrumwritingllc.com 
>
> 303-840-1755
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
> Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/
> framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> Subscribe and unsubscribe at http://lists.frameusers.com/
> listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
>
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Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Rick Quatro]

I agree that this is a situation that should have never happened. Because of
some software pirates, Adobe puts its loyal customers through grief with all
of the activation and licensing issues. Tammy is one of the many long-time
Adobe customers that have loudly evangelized for Adobe products over the
years. She shouldn't have to beg to activate a program that she already paid
for and registered.

Adobe has its cash cow CC subscription program but has let its customer
support and quality control degrade over the years. It took me about 45
minutes to downgrade my CC subscription to a single product subscription
(InDesign). This somehow caused my installed CS6 programs to stop working.
Another long chat session and they finally got it working. Then I was double
billed on my final month of the full subscription ($53.99 for full CC and
$22.67 for InDesign). I didn't bother to contact them about that; it wasn't
worth another 45 minutes or more to get a refund.

Years ago, Quark was the company that treated their customers like dirt. Now
it is Adobe. I love FrameMaker for its features and its ability to be
automated, but its quality and workmanship is disappointing. Anyway, I don't
rant very much and don't like to be negative, but I know that Tammy and I
aren't the only ones that are frustrated with Adobe Systems. 

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-729-6746 NEW!

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On
Behalf Of tamm...@spectrumwritingllc.com
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 7:04 PM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'

Subject: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

So, I had some offlist inquiries about how the licensing issue went with
Adobe, and in a nutshell, it didn't.  Here's a quick summary:

 

1.  Adobe wants proof of purchase or invoice for this extremely old
software. I bought it so long ago (when it first came out), that I simply do
not have that anymore. I do have a registered product, but evidently that is
not good enough.
2.  Adobe provided an email to me that stated that they would be more
than happy to charge me out the wazoo for upgrading to the latest and
greatest subscription version of CS - Basically, pay every year for what I
paid for this one time perpetual license.
3.  They also sent the email below:

 

You might have been using this license for last couple of years. You are
facing this issue now because Adobe is running a new program
<http://www.adobe.com/genuine.html> http://www.adobe.com/genuine.html under
this, we are running a validation test to check the software is properly
licensed or not. We introduced this in 2016 and gradually we are going to
cover all our customers those who have unknowingly purchased the non genuine
product.  Earlier Adobe was not aware of this counterfeit issue, so even
those invalid serial keys were able to register and use it without any
interruption, but after Adobe notice this issue all those in valid serial
keys were flagged out.

Uhm, OK, but the whole irony is that Adobe is notorious for licensing
problems with valid licenses, so how on earth could an invalid serial number
even be allowed to be registered? I don't buy that at all. I can even
remember a few times entering a license number wrong for a product and
getting an error message and having to double-check and redo my entry!!! So
an invalid number going through unscathed for multiple installations
throughout the years and then blam, it is dead in the water??

 

Compare this experience to the absolutely incredible one that I had w/
Madcap Flare:

 

1.  Had a license transferred to me (the whole process took less than 30
minutes.)
2.  Called support to activate the transferred license - someone
answered like in 5 seconds  vs. the hour wait on hold with Adobe w/out any
help whatsoever.
3.  Provided my identifying information, CRS replied "one sec," and
voila, license was activated, and now working beautifully in Flare.
4.  Just downloaded the latest and greatest version of Flare and
automatically get one month of PLATINUM support (yes, PLATINUM support) for
free. Have a whole list of questions I want to ask, submitted them to MadCap
and they are setting a specific time for me to use this support to get all
my questions answered.

 

Final result - Flare purchased and is being used for a new client project
with the prospect of another soon. Adobe was absolutely NO longer in the
running. . . .I will have to stick w/ Adobe for my long time clients that
know it and have been using the setup that I established for them - but
going forward, unless a client really balks, it's Flare.

 

TVB

 

 

 

Tammy Van Boening

Principal/Owner

Spectrum Writing, LLC

www.spectrumwritingllc.com <http://www.spectrumwritingllc.com> 

303-840-1755

 

___

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Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the l

Re: [Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[Alan Litchfield]

Thanks for the update Tammy.

It is pretty much as I predicted and as a matter of interest, this week I also 
got confirmation that my licensing issue will remain unaddressed by Adobe.

These days, FM makes a very small proportion of my time and I am thinking about 
cancelling my monthly sub. It will be a shame to do that after more than two 
decades, but hey…

I have not looked at Flare closely but in NZ, Author-It has a larger footprint. 
Most of my work these days is focussed on LaTeX.

Alan
--
Dr Alan Litchfield
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941
Auckland, New Zealand 1140

> On 22/06/2018, at 11:04,  
>  wrote:
> 
> So, I had some offlist inquiries about how the licensing issue went with
> Adobe, and in a nutshell, it didn't.  Here's a quick summary:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.Adobe wants proof of purchase or invoice for this extremely old
> software. I bought it so long ago (when it first came out), that I simply do
> not have that anymore. I do have a registered product, but evidently that is
> not good enough.
> 2.Adobe provided an email to me that stated that they would be more
> than happy to charge me out the wazoo for upgrading to the latest and
> greatest subscription version of CS - Basically, pay every year for what I
> paid for this one time perpetual license.
> 3.They also sent the email below:
> 
> 
> 
> You might have been using this license for last couple of years. You are
> facing this issue now because Adobe is running a new program
>  http://www.adobe.com/genuine.html under
> this, we are running a validation test to check the software is properly
> licensed or not. We introduced this in 2016 and gradually we are going to
> cover all our customers those who have unknowingly purchased the non genuine
> product.  Earlier Adobe was not aware of this counterfeit issue, so even
> those invalid serial keys were able to register and use it without any
> interruption, but after Adobe notice this issue all those in valid serial
> keys were flagged out.
> 
> Uhm, OK, but the whole irony is that Adobe is notorious for licensing
> problems with valid licenses, so how on earth could an invalid serial number
> even be allowed to be registered? I don't buy that at all. I can even
> remember a few times entering a license number wrong for a product and
> getting an error message and having to double-check and redo my entry!!! So
> an invalid number going through unscathed for multiple installations
> throughout the years and then blam, it is dead in the water??
> 
> 
> 
> Compare this experience to the absolutely incredible one that I had w/
> Madcap Flare:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.Had a license transferred to me (the whole process took less than 30
> minutes.)
> 2.Called support to activate the transferred license - someone
> answered like in 5 seconds  vs. the hour wait on hold with Adobe w/out any
> help whatsoever.
> 3.Provided my identifying information, CRS replied "one sec," and
> voila, license was activated, and now working beautifully in Flare.
> 4.Just downloaded the latest and greatest version of Flare and
> automatically get one month of PLATINUM support (yes, PLATINUM support) for
> free. Have a whole list of questions I want to ask, submitted them to MadCap
> and they are setting a specific time for me to use this support to get all
> my questions answered.
> 
> 
> 
> Final result - Flare purchased and is being used for a new client project
> with the prospect of another soon. Adobe was absolutely NO longer in the
> running. . . .I will have to stick w/ Adobe for my long time clients that
> know it and have been using the setup that I established for them - but
> going forward, unless a client really balks, it's Flare.
> 
> 
> 
> TVB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tammy Van Boening
> 
> Principal/Owner
> 
> Spectrum Writing, LLC
> 
> www.spectrumwritingllc.com  
> 
> 303-840-1755
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
> 
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
> Archives located at 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

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Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
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[Framers] Final note about Adobe Licensing

[tammyvb]

So, I had some offlist inquiries about how the licensing issue went with
Adobe, and in a nutshell, it didn't.  Here's a quick summary:

 

1.  Adobe wants proof of purchase or invoice for this extremely old
software. I bought it so long ago (when it first came out), that I simply do
not have that anymore. I do have a registered product, but evidently that is
not good enough.
2.  Adobe provided an email to me that stated that they would be more
than happy to charge me out the wazoo for upgrading to the latest and
greatest subscription version of CS - Basically, pay every year for what I
paid for this one time perpetual license.
3.  They also sent the email below:

 

You might have been using this license for last couple of years. You are
facing this issue now because Adobe is running a new program
 http://www.adobe.com/genuine.html under
this, we are running a validation test to check the software is properly
licensed or not. We introduced this in 2016 and gradually we are going to
cover all our customers those who have unknowingly purchased the non genuine
product.  Earlier Adobe was not aware of this counterfeit issue, so even
those invalid serial keys were able to register and use it without any
interruption, but after Adobe notice this issue all those in valid serial
keys were flagged out.

Uhm, OK, but the whole irony is that Adobe is notorious for licensing
problems with valid licenses, so how on earth could an invalid serial number
even be allowed to be registered? I don't buy that at all. I can even
remember a few times entering a license number wrong for a product and
getting an error message and having to double-check and redo my entry!!! So
an invalid number going through unscathed for multiple installations
throughout the years and then blam, it is dead in the water??

 

Compare this experience to the absolutely incredible one that I had w/
Madcap Flare:

 

1.  Had a license transferred to me (the whole process took less than 30
minutes.)
2.  Called support to activate the transferred license - someone
answered like in 5 seconds  vs. the hour wait on hold with Adobe w/out any
help whatsoever.
3.  Provided my identifying information, CRS replied "one sec," and
voila, license was activated, and now working beautifully in Flare.
4.  Just downloaded the latest and greatest version of Flare and
automatically get one month of PLATINUM support (yes, PLATINUM support) for
free. Have a whole list of questions I want to ask, submitted them to MadCap
and they are setting a specific time for me to use this support to get all
my questions answered.

 

Final result - Flare purchased and is being used for a new client project
with the prospect of another soon. Adobe was absolutely NO longer in the
running. . . .I will have to stick w/ Adobe for my long time clients that
know it and have been using the setup that I established for them - but
going forward, unless a client really balks, it's Flare.

 

TVB

 

 

 

Tammy Van Boening

Principal/Owner

Spectrum Writing, LLC

www.spectrumwritingllc.com  

303-840-1755

 

___

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Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
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