Re: Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
I don't buy that at all. DITA has major costs that are not offset unless you have substantial opportunities for reuse and publish in multiple languages. There's no rational reason to spend money on low-value upgrades. Do a cost-benefit analysis and know what you're paying for. At one old job we were using FM6. We looked at 7.0, 7.1, and 7.2, nobody thought they were worth the cost. FrameMaker's major competition is Flare, which does a pretty good job of importing FM files. On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Roger Shuttleworth shutti...@gmail.com wrote: All the complaints about prices, pricing models, low-value releases, poor documentation, etc. constitute a very cogent argument for structured authoring and XML, with its independence of proprietary tools. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
Adobe says it supports DocBook and various other things besides DITA: http://www.adobe.com/products/framemakerxmlauthor/features.html On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Bernard Gagne bernyga...@rogers.com wrote: That's great as long as you use DITA. We use DocBook so FrameMaker XML Author (which should more appropriately be called FrameMaker DITA Author) is useless. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
Adobe also says it does not support DocBook: http://www.adobe.com/ca/products/framemakerxmlauthor/faq.html (see What is the difference ...) On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Robert Lauriston rob...@lauriston.com wrote: Adobe says it supports DocBook and various other things besides DITA: http://www.adobe.com/products/framemakerxmlauthor/features.html On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Bernard Gagne bernyga...@rogers.com wrote: That's great as long as you use DITA. We use DocBook so FrameMaker XML Author (which should more appropriately be called FrameMaker DITA Author) is useless. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
That's great as long as you use DITA. We use DocBook so FrameMaker XML Author (which should more appropriately be called FrameMaker DITA Author) is useless. Oxygen and XMetal have nothing to fear. Berny Gagne Senior Technical Writer Siemens Canada On Thursday, January 23, 2014 8:28:02 AM, Robert Lauriston rob...@lauriston.com wrote: My guess is Adobe's goal in creating FrameMaker XML Author and pricing it at $400 is to eliminate the cost savings incentive for structured FrameMaker users to switch to Oxygen or XMetal instead of adding more FM seats. Also, at $400, I doubt if FrameMaker XML Author is going to be able to compete with other XML editors out there. The idea is fantastic, but the cost needs to be around $100-150 a seat. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as bernyga...@rogers.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/bernygagne%40rogers.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
Hello Framers It has been interesting and entertaining to read the various posts about upgrades and pricing. Thanks to Syed for persisting with this. A few statements that have been made raised my eyebrows somewhat: "Three releases of FrameMaker in 18 months" - really? I must have missed two of them. FM 11.0.1 and 11.0.2 were "critical" bug fixes, meaning that QA had somehow missed testing minor things like publishing a book. I'm unaware of a FM 11.1 or 11.2, and so is the Adobe website. "I just keep smiling when I use the new FM12 UI". This in a supposedly unbiased review. Woohoo, coloured icons. Reminds me of a Windex ad. Enough said. But to be serious for a moment: All the complaints about prices, pricing models, low-value releases, poor documentation, etc. constitute a very cogent argument for structured authoring and XML, with its independence of proprietary tools. These are the very evils that the XML community have been inveighing against for years now - the old "evil empire" comments that used to be made about M$ and other software vendors. It seems to me that any Framers who are not yet using structured authoring and XML, and/or are not convinced about its benefits, should do some serious thinking about where the future lies. Even Adobe has figured this out. Speaking personally, I think the only real argument for continuing to use FrameMaker is its so-far peerless PDF generation capability. For that you don't need to upgrade at all. And as soon as a cheap or open-source alternative appears, that argument becomes irrelavant. Roger Shuttleworth (now) Wirral, UK On 22/01/2014 7:43 PM, Syed Zaeem Hosain (Syed.Hosain at aeris.net) wrote: >> Also, at $400, I doubt if FrameMaker XML Author is going to be able to >> compete with other XML editors out there. The idea is fantastic, but the >> cost needs to be around $100-150 a seat. > > A list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_XML_editors. Many licensed > and free versions listed there. > > I use Altova's XMLSpy Enterprise (for XML and WSDL development work, so it is > not inexpensive), but they also have a simpler XML tool available called > Authentic: http://www.altova.com/authentic.html. > > Authentic is available: (a) free as a Community Edition, with some > limitations, and (b) as an Enterprise version with more features for $59 > including a support and maintenance package price of $14.75 for 1 year, and > $23.60 for 2 years. > > I do not know how well Authentic compares to Oxygen or Adobe XML Author, but > the price is tough to beat - for either the Community or Enterprise versions! > :) > > Z > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to framers as shuttie27 at gmail.com. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/shuttie27%40gmail.com > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. >
RE: Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
At 11:28 -0800 22/1/14, Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net) wrote: The unhappy ones are probably the small users - like myself - who helped FrameMaker become what it is and Adobe *clearly* does not care about us anymore. That is unlike the founders of Frame Technology who I met many years ago ... and the founders of Adobe too, I would hope! Indeed: I suspect that the many small users such as myself (one seat since 1993) who have happily evangelized for FrameMaker, not through affection for Adobe, but simply because the tool is so damn *good*, do feel we are being shouldered out. FrameMaker has been the cornerstone of my professional life: I use InDesign, Acrobat, DreamWeaver and Illustrator too, but it would all have been impossible without FrameMaker, and over thirty published textbooks bear that out. Surely one of the key principles of running a successful company is keeping faith with its customers, no matter how small? -- Steve [the one wearing the 'FrameMaker for OS X' T-shirt at IPEX 2006] ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
My guess is Adobe's goal in creating FrameMaker XML Author and pricing it at $400 is to eliminate the cost savings incentive for structured FrameMaker users to switch to Oxygen or XMetal instead of adding more FM seats. Also, at $400, I doubt if FrameMaker XML Author is going to be able to compete with other XML editors out there. The idea is fantastic, but the cost needs to be around $100-150 a seat. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
Maxwell Hoffman said: For another viewpoint, Adobe was just named in the top 100 companies to work for by Fortune. Our 2013 revenues considerably exceeded projections. So somebody out there is happy with Adobe. ;-) Perhaps. :) But, at what cost? The unhappy ones are probably the small users - like myself - who helped FrameMaker become what it is and Adobe *clearly* does not care about us anymore. That is unlike the founders of Frame Technology who I met many years ago ... and the founders of Adobe too, I would hope! Financial success by large companies is not the only measure of success that matters. It is why in my 35+ years of work, I have chosen to do many small startups and try to only work for small companies. My current startup (I was one of the founders) now has 80 employees and I bet that, *collectively*, we are a happier bunch of people than all the folks at Adobe. But we will *never* make those top lists due to our tiny size! :) FWIW, the largest company I ever worked for was Analog Devices (helped their small 60 person semiconductor division grow large ... my first job out of college). Even there, supporting small customers was a matter of pride for us - an *individual* could buy a single part from them directly when I worked there. Z ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
At 07:49 -0800 22/1/14, Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net) wrote: Financial success by large companies is not the only measure of success that matters. It is why in my 35+ years of work, I have chosen to do many small startups and try to only work for small companies. My current startup (I was one of the founders) now has 80 employees and I bet that, *collectively*, we are a happier bunch of people than all the folks at Adobe. But we will *never* make those top lists due to our tiny size! :) I forgot the precise statistic, but I believe that something like 70% of the UK economy is made up of companies with ten employees or less (and no, that doesn't mean we're just a nation of shopkeepers ;-) -- Steve [Trim e-mails: use less disk, use less power, use less planet] ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
Excellent point by Syed. Another point that is easy to miss in this discussion: If all of Adobe's products had the level of quality control that FrameMaker has (long-standing and new bugs, outdated and incomplete documentation, etc.), Adobe certainly wouldn't be as successful as it is. In my opinion, FrameMaker's upgrade pricing is way too high, especially for those who got stuck with FrameMaker 9. Adobe should be especially generous with previous version users to keep them in the fold. Also, at $400, I doubt if FrameMaker XML Author is going to be able to compete with other XML editors out there. The idea is fantastic, but the cost needs to be around $100-150 a seat. No disrespect intended for Max or Kapil, just the way I see it. Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-366-4017 r...@frameexpert.com Maxwell Hoffman said: For another viewpoint, Adobe was just named in the top 100 companies to work for by Fortune. Our 2013 revenues considerably exceeded projections. So somebody out there is happy with Adobe. ;-) Perhaps. :) But, at what cost? The unhappy ones are probably the small users - like myself - who helped FrameMaker become what it is and Adobe *clearly* does not care about us anymore. That is unlike the founders of Frame Technology who I met many years ago ... and the founders of Adobe too, I would hope! Financial success by large companies is not the only measure of success that matters. It is why in my 35+ years of work, I have chosen to do many small startups and try to only work for small companies. My current startup (I was one of the founders) now has 80 employees and I bet that, *collectively*, we are a happier bunch of people than all the folks at Adobe. But we will *never* make those top lists due to our tiny size! :) FWIW, the largest company I ever worked for was Analog Devices (helped their small 60 person semiconductor division grow large ... my first job out of college). Even there, supporting small customers was a matter of pride for us - an *individual* could buy a single part from them directly when I worked there. Z ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
Rick Quatro said: Excellent point by Syed. Another point that is easy to miss in this discussion: If all of Adobe's products had the level of quality control that FrameMaker has (long-standing and new bugs, outdated and incomplete documentation, etc.), Adobe certainly wouldn't be as successful as it is. Indeed, yes! It is the small users loyal to FrameMaker, despite of the above, who have stayed with the product for a long time. Larger corporations will make decisions to switch tools if they encounter issues or cost concerns - even if their employees may say or want otherwise. In my opinion, FrameMaker's upgrade pricing is way too high Yes! especially for those who got stuck with FrameMaker 9. Adobe should be especially generous with previous version users to keep them in the fold. I suspect that this generosity is unlikely - this is probably one of the groups of people that Adobe wants to move over to the subscription model, by forcing them to either spend $999 for an upgrade or make them think that the annual contract with monthly payments is a better deal. Also, at $400, I doubt if FrameMaker XML Author is going to be able to compete with other XML editors out there. The idea is fantastic, but the cost needs to be around $100-150 a seat. Yes. There are already lower-cost (many free too) XML editor products that work very well. Although some are expensive too ... like Oxygen at $423 a seat. No disrespect intended for Max or Kapil, just the way I see it. Agreed! I hope I have been clear about that too ... if not, thanks for emphasizing it. :) I fault the Adobe pricing policy folks for the stupidities over the past few years ... of $399 upgrades - some of which should have been treated as bug fix releases, IMHO. Z Maxwell Hoffman said: For another viewpoint, Adobe was just named in the top 100 companies to work for by Fortune. Our 2013 revenues considerably exceeded projections. So somebody out there is happy with Adobe. ;-) Perhaps. :) But, at what cost? The unhappy ones are probably the small users - like myself - who helped FrameMaker become what it is and Adobe *clearly* does not care about us anymore. That is unlike the founders of Frame Technology who I met many years ago ... and the founders of Adobe too, I would hope! Financial success by large companies is not the only measure of success that matters. It is why in my 35+ years of work, I have chosen to do many small startups and try to only work for small companies. My current startup (I was one of the founders) now has 80 employees and I bet that, *collectively*, we are a happier bunch of people than all the folks at Adobe. But we will *never* make those top lists due to our tiny size! :) FWIW, the largest company I ever worked for was Analog Devices (helped their small 60 person semiconductor division grow large ... my first job out of college). Even there, supporting small customers was a matter of pride for us - an *individual* could buy a single part from them directly when I worked there. Z ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
Maxwell Hoffman said: > For another viewpoint, Adobe was just named in the top 100 companies to work > for by Fortune. Our 2013 revenues considerably exceeded projections. So > "somebody" out there is happy with Adobe. ;-) Perhaps. :) But, at what cost? The unhappy ones are probably the small users - like myself - who helped FrameMaker become what it is and Adobe *clearly* does not care about us anymore. That is unlike the founders of Frame Technology who I met many years ago ... and the founders of Adobe too, I would hope! Financial success by large companies is not the only measure of success that matters. It is why in my 35+ years of work, I have chosen to do many small startups and try to only work for small companies. My current startup (I was one of the founders) now has 80 employees and I bet that, *collectively*, we are a happier bunch of people than all the folks at Adobe. But we will *never* make those top lists due to our tiny size! :) FWIW, the largest company I ever worked for was Analog Devices (helped their small 60 person semiconductor division grow large ... my first job out of college). Even there, supporting small customers was a matter of pride for us - an *individual* could buy a single part from them directly when I worked there. Z
Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
At 07:49 -0800 22/1/14, Syed Zaeem Hosain (Syed.Hosain at aeris.net) wrote: >Financial success by large companies is not the only measure of success that >matters. It is why in my 35+ years of work, I have chosen to do many small >startups and try to only work for small companies. My current startup (I was >one of the founders) now has 80 employees and I bet that, *collectively*, we >are a happier bunch of people than all the folks at Adobe. But we will *never* >make those top lists due to our tiny size! :) I forgot the precise statistic, but I believe that something like 70% of the UK economy is made up of companies with ten employees or less (and no, that doesn't mean we're just a nation of shopkeepers ;-) -- Steve [Trim e-mails: use less disk, use less power, use less planet]
Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
Excellent point by Syed. Another point that is easy to miss in this discussion: If all of Adobe's products had the level of quality control that FrameMaker has (long-standing and new bugs, outdated and incomplete documentation, etc.), Adobe certainly wouldn't be as successful as it is. In my opinion, FrameMaker's upgrade pricing is way too high, especially for those who got stuck with FrameMaker 9. Adobe should be especially generous with previous version users to keep them in the fold. Also, at $400, I doubt if FrameMaker XML Author is going to be able to compete with other XML editors out there. The idea is fantastic, but the cost needs to be around $100-150 a seat. No disrespect intended for Max or Kapil, just the way I see it. Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-366-4017 rick at frameexpert.com Maxwell Hoffman said: > For another viewpoint, Adobe was just named in the top 100 companies > to work for by Fortune. Our 2013 revenues considerably exceeded > projections. So "somebody" out there is happy with Adobe. ;-) Perhaps. :) But, at what cost? The unhappy ones are probably the small users - like myself - who helped FrameMaker become what it is and Adobe *clearly* does not care about us anymore. That is unlike the founders of Frame Technology who I met many years ago ... and the founders of Adobe too, I would hope! Financial success by large companies is not the only measure of success that matters. It is why in my 35+ years of work, I have chosen to do many small startups and try to only work for small companies. My current startup (I was one of the founders) now has 80 employees and I bet that, *collectively*, we are a happier bunch of people than all the folks at Adobe. But we will *never* make those top lists due to our tiny size! :) FWIW, the largest company I ever worked for was Analog Devices (helped their small 60 person semiconductor division grow large ... my first job out of college). Even there, supporting small customers was a matter of pride for us - an *individual* could buy a single part from them directly when I worked there. Z
Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
Rick Quatro said: > Excellent point by Syed. Another point that is easy to miss in this > discussion: If all of Adobe's products had the level of quality control that > FrameMaker has (long-standing and new bugs, outdated and incomplete > documentation, etc.), Adobe certainly wouldn't be as successful as it is. Indeed, yes! It is the small users loyal to FrameMaker, despite of the above, who have stayed with the product for a long time. Larger corporations will make decisions to switch tools if they encounter issues or cost concerns - even if their employees may say or want otherwise. > In my opinion, FrameMaker's upgrade pricing is way too high Yes! > especially for those who got stuck with FrameMaker 9. Adobe should be > especially generous with previous version users to keep them in the fold. I suspect that this generosity is unlikely - this is probably one of the groups of people that Adobe wants to move over to the subscription model, by forcing them to either spend $999 for an "upgrade" or make them think that the annual contract with monthly payments is a better deal. > Also, at $400, I doubt if FrameMaker XML Author is going to be able to > compete with other XML editors out there. The idea is fantastic, but the cost > needs to be around $100-150 a seat. Yes. There are already lower-cost (many free too) XML editor products that work very well. Although some are expensive too ... like Oxygen at $423 a seat. > No disrespect intended for Max or Kapil, just the way I see it. Agreed! I hope I have been clear about that too ... if not, thanks for emphasizing it. :) I fault the Adobe pricing policy folks for the stupidities over the past few years ... of $399 upgrades - some of which should have been treated as bug fix releases, IMHO. Z Maxwell Hoffman said: > For another viewpoint, Adobe was just named in the top 100 companies > to work for by Fortune. Our 2013 revenues considerably exceeded > projections. So "somebody" out there is happy with Adobe. ;-) Perhaps. :) But, at what cost? The unhappy ones are probably the small users - like myself - who helped FrameMaker become what it is and Adobe *clearly* does not care about us anymore. That is unlike the founders of Frame Technology who I met many years ago ... and the founders of Adobe too, I would hope! Financial success by large companies is not the only measure of success that matters. It is why in my 35+ years of work, I have chosen to do many small startups and try to only work for small companies. My current startup (I was one of the founders) now has 80 employees and I bet that, *collectively*, we are a happier bunch of people than all the folks at Adobe. But we will *never* make those top lists due to our tiny size! :) FWIW, the largest company I ever worked for was Analog Devices (helped their small 60 person semiconductor division grow large ... my first job out of college). Even there, supporting small customers was a matter of pride for us - an *individual* could buy a single part from them directly when I worked there. Z
Now OT, I suppose. RE: Adobe pricing policies (was: FrameMaker 12 released)
> Also, at $400, I doubt if FrameMaker XML Author is going to be able to > compete with other XML editors out there. The idea is fantastic, but the cost > needs to be around $100-150 a seat. A list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_XML_editors. Many licensed and free versions listed there. I use Altova's XMLSpy Enterprise (for XML and WSDL development work, so it is not inexpensive), but they also have a simpler XML tool available called Authentic: http://www.altova.com/authentic.html. Authentic is available: (a) free as a Community Edition, with some limitations, and (b) as an Enterprise version with more features for $59 including a support and maintenance package price of $14.75 for 1 year, and $23.60 for 2 years. I do not know how well Authentic compares to Oxygen or Adobe XML Author, but the price is tough to beat - for either the Community or Enterprise versions! :) Z
