RE: Consistent Conditional Text

[David Artman]

Thanks for the FM7 advice, Fred; but it seems to have been undone by FM8.0(p277). 
 
Interestingly, while I was testing whether it still worked like that, I found a bigger gotcha for folks who edit conditional text without condition indicators or text symbols visible:
* [FM8.0] If you are in the middle of conditional text and you press Enter, then immediately press Backspace (to 'undo' the paragraph break), and then continue typing... the text that you type is no longer conditional(!). The automatically-unconditional paragraph break—even when deleted—creates a sort of 'seam' between what is now *two* conditional-markup ranges; and you end up typing 'between' the seam edges and not in the conditional markup.
 
As I wrote before: this behavior is completely counterintuitive for me; and I cannot think of a single use case in which one would prefer to have a typed paragraph break inside a condtional-markup range *automatically* become unconditional. [I *can* think of use cases where one choose to make the pilcrow of a conditional paragraph unconditional... but they're degenerate/weird cases and certainly not something I'd do by *default*.]
 
David
 

 Original Message From: Fred Ridder Date: Mon, November 10, 2014 11:02 am


There is a fairly easy workaround that I used to use in FM7, when I was using conditional text *a lot*. It's been a while since I've used conditional text more than occasionally, so I can't guarantee it still works. Basically, if you press Enter in the middle of a conditionalized paragraph, the new pilcrow *will* be conditional. The problem is only wen the insertion point immediately precedes the pilcrow. So the workaround it to enter a space and then use the cursor key to move to the left of the space before you press Enter. That way, there is conditinal content on both sides of the IP, and the new pilcrow will have the condition applied to it.-Fred Ridder
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Re: Consistent Conditional Text

[gr...@hedgewizard.net]

Hi K Grace; 
You need to select the paragraph symbol to have the entire bullet  be
conditional.
 
Regards,
Grant

> On November 8, 2014 at 7:38 AM K Grace  wrote:
>
>
> Does anyone have a list of rules of thumb when using conditional text ? I When
> I mark the text the results that I get when I turn the conditions on or off
> are inconsistent. For example if I have a bulleted list and I only want
> certain bullets to appear under certain conditions when I hide the condition
> the bullet remains (i.e., I am left with a bullet and no text) when I want
> both the text and the bullet to be removed if the bulleted item is not
> supposed to show up. Another such occurrence is if I select a paragraph that
> is conditional and I hide the condition the paragraph is removed but the
> spacing between the preceding and following paragraphs is not adjusted
> properly.
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RE: Consistent Conditional Text

[Fred Ridder]

There is a fairly easy workaround that I used to use in FM7, when I was using 
conditional text *a lot*. It's been a while since I've used conditional text 
more than occasionally, so I can't guarantee it still works. 

Basically, if you press Enter in the middle of a conditionalized paragraph, the 
new pilcrow *will* be conditional. The problem is only wen the insertion point 
immediately precedes the pilcrow. So the workaround it to enter a space and 
then use the cursor key to move to the left of the space before you press 
Enter. That way, there is conditinal content on both sides of the IP, and the 
new pilcrow will have the condition applied to it.

-Fred Ridder

From: da...@davidartman.com
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Consistent Conditional Text
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 07:16:58 -0700

Yes, you must always turn on View > Text Symbols when you are performing 
conditional markup (and troubleshooting).
 
The 'gotcha' in FrameMaker is that if you are typing inside of a condition and 
press Enter for a new paragraph, FM does NOT conditionalize the pilcrow.
 
[I do not know why this is the default behavior; I've always considered it a 
significant bug, but maybe there's a logical reason for it to default to that 
behavior and have no way to change it...?]
 
David

 Original Message 
You need to include the paragraph marker at the end of the bulleted or 
non-bulleted paragraph in the conditional text. That is not a rule of thumb, it 
is simply telling Frame which portion of content (visible or non-visible) to 
make conditional. It might help to switch on the display of hidden characters, 
such as paragraph endings and tabs, so you can see when they are included in 
your conditional sections.

> Does anyone have a list of rules of thumb when using conditional text ? I 
> When I mark the text the results that I get when I turn the conditions on or 
> off are inconsistent. For example if I have a bulleted list and I only want 
> certain bullets to appear under certain conditions when I hide the condition 
> the bullet remains (i.e., I am left with a bullet and no text) when I want 
> both the text and the bullet to be removed if the bulleted item is not 
> supposed to show up. Another such occurrence is if I select a paragraph that 
> is conditional and I hide the condition the paragraph is removed but the 
> spacing between the preceding and following paragraphs is not adjusted 
> properly.

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RE: Consistent Conditional Text

[David Artman]

Yes, you must always turn on View > Text Symbols when you are performing conditional markup (and troubleshooting).
 
The 'gotcha' in FrameMaker is that if you are typing inside of a condition and press Enter for a new paragraph, FM does NOT conditionalize the pilcrow.
 
[I do not know why this is the default behavior; I've always considered it a significant bug, but maybe there's a logical reason for it to default to that behavior and have no way to change it...?]
 
David

 Original Message You need to include the paragraph marker at the end of the bulleted or non-bulleted paragraph in the conditional text. That is not a rule of thumb, it is simply telling Frame which portion of content (visible or non-visible) to make conditional. It might help to switch on the display of hidden characters, such as paragraph endings and tabs, so you can see when they are included in your conditional sections.> Does anyone have a list of rules of thumb when using conditional text ? I When I mark the text the results that I get when I turn the conditions on or off are inconsistent. For example if I have a bulleted list and I only want certain bullets to appear under certain conditions when I hide the condition the bullet remains (i.e., I am left with a bullet and no text) when I want both the text and the bullet to be removed if the bulleted item is not supposed to show up. Another such occurrence is if I select a paragraph that is conditional and I hide the condition the paragraph is removed but the spacing between the preceding and following paragraphs is not adjusted properly.
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Re: Consistent Conditional Text

[Jang F.M. Graat]

You need to include the paragraph marker at the end of the bulleted or 
non-bulleted paragraph in the conditional text. That is not a rule of thumb, it 
is simply telling Frame which portion of content (visible or non-visible) to 
make conditional. It might help to switch on the display of hidden characters, 
such as paragraph endings and tabs, so you can see when they are included in 
your conditional sections.

> Does anyone have a list of rules of thumb when using conditional text ?  I 
> When I mark the text the results that I get when I turn the conditions on or 
> off are inconsistent.  For example if I have a bulleted list and I only want 
> certain bullets to appear under certain conditions when I hide the condition 
> the bullet remains (i.e., I am left with a bullet and no text) when I want 
> both the text and the bullet to be removed if the bulleted item is not 
> supposed to show up.  Another such occurrence is if I select a paragraph that 
> is conditional and I hide the condition the paragraph is removed but the 
> spacing between the preceding and following paragraphs is not adjusted 
> properly.

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Re: Consistent Conditional Text (K Grace)

[Scott Turner]

This is also true in Structured Frame, only there you should select the the 
element the text is contained within.

Scott


> On Nov 8, 2014, at 15:58, Yvonne DeGraw  wrote:
> 
> In Frame, choose View > Text Symbols. That lets you see the paragraph marks 
> at the end of your paragraphs and list items. It sounds like you are 
> conditionalizing the text but not the end of paragraph characters. The ones 
> you didn't conditionalize will show up as black even when your 
> conditionalized text is colored.
> 
> I generally edit with Text Symbols showing almost all the time in both Frame 
> and Word.
> 
>> Does anyone have a list of rules of thumb when using conditional text ?  I 
>> When I mark the text the results that I get when I turn the conditions on or 
>> off are inconsistent.  For example if I have a bulleted list and I only want 
>> certain bullets to appear under certain conditions when I hide the condition 
>> the bullet remains (i.e., I am left with a bullet and no text) when I want 
>> both the text and the bullet to be removed if the bulleted item is not 
>> supposed to show up.  Another such occurrence is if I select a paragraph 
>> that is conditional and I hide the condition the paragraph is removed but 
>> the spacing between the preceding and following paragraphs is not adjusted 
>> properly.
> 
> ~O-O-O~~
> Yvonne DeGraw
> ydeg...@ydegraw.com
> 805-683-5784
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/ydegraw
> 
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Re: Consistent Conditional Text (K Grace)

[Yvonne DeGraw]

In Frame, choose View > Text Symbols. That lets you see the paragraph 
marks at the end of your paragraphs and list items. It sounds like 
you are conditionalizing the text but not the end of paragraph 
characters. The ones you didn't conditionalize will show up as black 
even when your conditionalized text is colored.


I generally edit with Text Symbols showing almost all the time in 
both Frame and Word.


Does anyone have a list of rules of thumb when using conditional 
text ?  I When I mark the text the results that I get when I turn 
the conditions on or off are inconsistent.  For example if I have a 
bulleted list and I only want certain bullets to appear under 
certain conditions when I hide the condition the bullet remains 
(i.e., I am left with a bullet and no text) when I want both the 
text and the bullet to be removed if the bulleted item is not 
supposed to show up.  Another such occurrence is if I select a 
paragraph that is conditional and I hide the condition the paragraph 
is removed but the spacing between the preceding and following 
paragraphs is not adjusted properly.


~O-O-O~~
Yvonne DeGraw
ydeg...@ydegraw.com
805-683-5784
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ydegraw

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Consistent Conditional Text

[K Grace]

Does anyone have a list of rules of thumb when using conditional text ?  I When 
I mark the text the results that I get when I turn the conditions on or off are 
inconsistent.  For example if I have a bulleted list and I only want certain 
bullets to appear under certain conditions when I hide the condition the bullet 
remains (i.e., I am left with a bullet and no text) when I want both the text 
and the bullet to be removed if the bulleted item is not supposed to show up.  
Another such occurrence is if I select a paragraph that is conditional and I 
hide the condition the paragraph is removed but the spacing between the 
preceding and following paragraphs is not adjusted properly.
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