RE: Pagemaker to FrameMaker conversion

2006-06-28 Thread Harro de Jong
Carol J. Elkins wrote :

 I suggested to my client that we might convert the doc to FrameMaker
 and have a professional manage revisions to the Spanish
 version. That would,
 at first glimpse, be a better idea than having my FrameMaker version
 translated to Spanish. So my query is really just a
 preliminary first pass
 at what I might need to consider if I make a recommendation
 to my client.

If you do that, you'd have to manually maintain the Spanish version
independently of the English version, which is rather error-prone. 
The conventional way is to maintain the English version, and use a
translation tool (see below) to translate each update of this version to
Spanish. This takes less work, and makes sure the English and Spanish
versions have the same content. 


 I've never heard the term translation memory, so I don't
 know what to do
 with your comments that used it. Can you explain it a bit more?

Many translators use 'computer aided translation' tools like Trados and
Deja Vu. You import your document into the tool and translate it there,
and it keeps a record of what has been translated. This is the
translation memory. Once the translation is finished, you export the
book from the tool (back to FrameMaker). All the layout elements and
graphics from the original book will be transferred automatically by the
tool, so you end up with a Spanish version that looks identical to the
English version. 

If you later want to translate a similar book (like an updated version),
you can import it into the tool, and it will compare the document to its
memory. Every sentence it finds in the memory is automatically supplied,
so the translator only has to worry about translating the new content.  
Another advantage of these tools is that the translator no longer needs
Pagemaker, FrameMaker etc. She only needs to use the translation tool,
which makes it easier to find translators who can handle your book. 


Harro de Jong
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Pagemaker to FrameMaker conversion

2006-06-28 Thread Harro de Jong
Carol J. Elkins wrote :

> I suggested to my client that we might convert the doc to FrameMaker
> and have a "professional" manage revisions to the Spanish
> version. That would,
> at first glimpse, be a better idea than having my FrameMaker version
> translated to Spanish. So my query is really just a
> preliminary first pass
> at what I might need to consider if I make a recommendation
> to my client.

If you do that, you'd have to manually maintain the Spanish version
independently of the English version, which is rather error-prone. 
The conventional way is to maintain the English version, and use a
translation tool (see below) to translate each update of this version to
Spanish. This takes less work, and makes sure the English and Spanish
versions have the same content. 


> I've never heard the term "translation memory," so I don't
> know what to do
> with your comments that used it. Can you explain it a bit more?

Many translators use 'computer aided translation' tools like Trados and
Deja Vu. You import your document into the tool and translate it there,
and it keeps a record of what has been translated. This is the
translation memory. Once the translation is finished, you export the
book from the tool (back to FrameMaker). All the layout elements and
graphics from the original book will be transferred automatically by the
tool, so you end up with a Spanish version that looks identical to the
English version. 

If you later want to translate a similar book (like an updated version),
you can import it into the tool, and it will compare the document to its
memory. Every sentence it finds in the memory is automatically supplied,
so the translator only has to worry about translating the new content.  
Another advantage of these tools is that the translator no longer needs
Pagemaker, FrameMaker etc. She only needs to use the translation tool,
which makes it easier to find translators who can handle your book. 


Harro de Jong



RE: Pagemaker to FrameMaker conversion

2006-06-27 Thread Combs, Richard
Carol J. Elkins wrote: 
 
 Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, my client doesn't 
 know what he wants other than to reduce the twice yearly 
 expense of printing the Spanish version of this book. I 
 maintain this manual in FrameMaker and the gal who maintains 
 the Spanish version works in PageMaker. I think my client 
 needs to consider a new vendor for the Spanish version. Here 
snip
 
 I suggested to my client that we might convert the doc to 
 FrameMaker and have a professional manage revisions to the 
 Spanish version. That would, at first glimpse, be a better 
 idea than having my FrameMaker version translated to Spanish. 

I have no direct experience with either localization or conversion from
PM to FM, so I may be way off base, but... If the English version is in
FM, and it's the original source for the translated version, then I'd
_really_, _really_ prefer to start with the FM version. 

It seems to me that it would be relatively easy for a Spanish speaker to
replace the English text in your FM files with the corresponding Spanish
text (assuming the existing translations are of good quality). Just
pasting plain text and applying pgf and char tags as you go should go
fairly quickly. The callouts will simply have to be redone properly --
but you have the translated wording to work from. 

The result would be a Spanish FM book that matched your English FM book
-- not just in appearance/layout, but in all the plumbing -- graphics,
xrefs, variables, running headers/footers, generated lists, etc. I
suspect that result would be at best very difficult and time-consuming
to achieve if you start from the PM version. 

Maybe I'm off-base, but that's my $0.02. 

Richard 


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--




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RE: Pagemaker to FrameMaker conversion

2006-06-27 Thread Anne Robotti
 It seems to me that it would be relatively easy for a Spanish 
 speaker to replace the English text in your FM files with the 
 corresponding Spanish text (assuming the existing 
 translations are of good quality). Just pasting plain text 
 and applying pgf and char tags as you go should go fairly 
 quickly. The callouts will simply have to be redone properly 
 -- but you have the translated wording to work from. 
 
 The result would be a Spanish FM book that matched your 
 English FM book
 -- not just in appearance/layout, but in all the plumbing 
 -- graphics, xrefs, variables, running headers/footers, 
 generated lists, etc. I suspect that result would be at best 
 very difficult and time-consuming to achieve if you start 
 from the PM version. 

Is there a reason not to handle this with conditional text? Is it
because of the length of the book, or something? What they're doing now
sounds like a real pain! Couldn't there be two condition tags, English
and Spanish, and just translate the whole thing once? It sounds like
it's getting translated over and over again, although I admit I was
pre-coffee when I read it.

Anne
 


The information contained in or attached to this e-mail contains confidential 
or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that 
any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail is 
PROHIBITED. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender 
and delete the e-mail immediately. Thank you.
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Pagemaker to FrameMaker conversion

2006-06-27 Thread Alan Litchfield

Carol J. Elkins wrote:
>
> 1. Has anyone successfully converted from PageMaker to FrameMaker and, if
> so, what were the gotchas?

Reasonably successful, FM can import PM files directly. But...

1. Provided the original document uses properly formatted text and everything
is in one flow, otherwise some text can be lost.

2. Image data can be quite challenging, depending on your platform, and
whether you are swapping platforms at the same time.

3. Tabular data that has been created using Adobe Table is a real pain.

To get around the problems in 1-3 above I PDFd the original documents. This
gave me something to compare once the translation has been done. Vector art
images were extracted from the PDF using Illustrator. Raster images need to be
treateed on a case by case basis depending on the original file format, but
mostly I was able to select the image data from the PDF in Acrobat and paste
that into Photoshop. Tabular data can be copied from the PDF or exported as
TXT (real drag if there are a lot of tables).

If the originator was undisciplined you might find a lot of strange formats
that are brought into FM, or worse, Word formats. To fix these I have used
Paragraph Tools and Character Tools. Then gone back through them all and
assigned correct formats. Obviously this meant creating a template first and
importing the page, paragraph, character, etc. styles into each converted
chapter before tryin gto clean it all up.

There is a lot of work in the worst case, but can be straightforward if the
originator knew what they were doing.

> 2. Can anyone recommend a translation vendor who could manage this conversion?
>
>

No, sorry. I can do conversion but not translation.

Cheers
Alan Litchfield




Pagemaker to FrameMaker conversion

2006-06-27 Thread Combs, Richard
Carol J. Elkins wrote: 

> Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, my client doesn't 
> know what he wants other than to reduce the twice yearly 
> expense of printing the Spanish version of this book. I 
> maintain this manual in FrameMaker and the gal who maintains 
> the Spanish version works in PageMaker. I think my client 
> needs to consider a new vendor for the Spanish version. Here 

> 
> I suggested to my client that we might convert the doc to 
> FrameMaker and have a "professional" manage revisions to the 
> Spanish version. That would, at first glimpse, be a better 
> idea than having my FrameMaker version translated to Spanish. 

I have no direct experience with either localization or conversion from
PM to FM, so I may be way off base, but... If the English version is in
FM, and it's the original source for the translated version, then I'd
_really_, _really_ prefer to start with the FM version. 

It seems to me that it would be relatively easy for a Spanish speaker to
replace the English text in your FM files with the corresponding Spanish
text (assuming the existing translations are of good quality). Just
pasting plain text and applying pgf and char tags as you go should go
fairly quickly. The callouts will simply have to be redone properly --
but you have the translated wording to work from. 

The result would be a Spanish FM book that matched your English FM book
-- not just in appearance/layout, but in all the "plumbing" -- graphics,
xrefs, variables, running headers/footers, generated lists, etc. I
suspect that result would be at best very difficult and time-consuming
to achieve if you start from the PM version. 

Maybe I'm off-base, but that's my $0.02. 

Richard 


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--







Pagemaker to FrameMaker conversion

2006-06-27 Thread Anne Robotti
> It seems to me that it would be relatively easy for a Spanish 
> speaker to replace the English text in your FM files with the 
> corresponding Spanish text (assuming the existing 
> translations are of good quality). Just pasting plain text 
> and applying pgf and char tags as you go should go fairly 
> quickly. The callouts will simply have to be redone properly 
> -- but you have the translated wording to work from. 
> 
> The result would be a Spanish FM book that matched your 
> English FM book
> -- not just in appearance/layout, but in all the "plumbing" 
> -- graphics, xrefs, variables, running headers/footers, 
> generated lists, etc. I suspect that result would be at best 
> very difficult and time-consuming to achieve if you start 
> from the PM version. 

Is there a reason not to handle this with conditional text? Is it
because of the length of the book, or something? What they're doing now
sounds like a real pain! Couldn't there be two condition tags, English
and Spanish, and just translate the whole thing once? It sounds like
it's getting translated over and over again, although I admit I was
pre-coffee when I read it.

Anne



The information contained in or attached to this e-mail contains confidential 
or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that 
any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail is 
PROHIBITED. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender 
and delete the e-mail immediately. Thank you.



Pagemaker to FrameMaker conversion

2006-06-26 Thread Carol J. Elkins
Currently, one of my clients uses a translation vendor (English to Spanish) 
who authors in PageMaker. They've asked me what it would entail to convert 
the PageMaker book to FrameMaker and change to a translation vendor who can 
work in Framemaker.


The book in question is 550 pages and is updated twice a year. I have never 
been involved in any localization project, so I'm pretty naive in this 
area. I have two main questions for Frame folks:


1. Has anyone successfully converted from PageMaker to FrameMaker and, if 
so, what were the gotchas?

2. Can anyone recommend a translation vendor who could manage this conversion?

Thanks, as always, for your help.

Carol
**
Carol J. Elkins---A Written Word LLC
Making Information Understandable
Phone: 719-948-3773
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.awrittenword.com
***

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RE: Pagemaker to FrameMaker conversion

2006-06-26 Thread Carol J. Elkins

Hi Mollye,

Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, my client doesn't know what he 
wants other than to reduce the twice yearly expense of printing the Spanish 
version of this book. I maintain this manual in FrameMaker and the gal who 
maintains the Spanish version works in PageMaker. I think my client needs 
to consider a new vendor for the Spanish version. Here are a couple of 
examples of why I think this: She has no experience with graphic formats, 
so she cuts and pastes graphics (the hardcopy version!) on which she has 
overlain the translated callouts. She sends these plus her native PageMaker 
files to the printer and the printer spends hours of table time getting 
them ready for prepress.  I suggested to this gal that she purchase Adobe 
Acrobat and send the PDF files to the printer. This she did. Now she thinks 
that Acrobat is her native application and wants to know how to make the 
changes in the PDF file. sigh


I suggested to my client that we might convert the doc to FrameMaker and 
have a professional manage revisions to the Spanish version. That would, 
at first glimpse, be a better idea than having my FrameMaker version 
translated to Spanish. So my query is really just a preliminary first pass 
at what I might need to consider if I make a recommendation to my client.


Structured Frame is not a practical option for this book.

I have no idea what the doc looks like in PageMaker. The FrameMaker 
template is excellent. Assuming that there is good mapping correlation, is 
there a PageMaker-to-FrameMaker conversion tool that you know of?


I've never heard the term translation memory, so I don't know what to do 
with your comments that used it. Can you explain it a bit more?


Thanks!

Carol


At 05:28 PM 6/26/2006 -0500, Mollye Barrett wrote:

Does the client really want the translation vendor to do the conversion?
Perhaps what they're looking for is a migration plan for converting the
PageMaker to Frame and then working with translation memory. Are all the
languages they require supported by Frame? Do they have a strong template
and/or EDD?

We've worked with many conversions and the gotchas are always, it depends.
The best projects are those with high stylesheet integrity on both sides of
the conversion (of course, these are few and far between!). I'd consider get
them into a structured Frame world, convert PageMaker PDFs to XML and,
import the XML to Frame. A good EDD will handle the formatting and the
client will have minimal upkeep on future revisions.

If they have an existing PageMaker translation memory (full of formatting
tags), their translator may be challenged with this change. As we all know,
there's more to translations than handing off an input file. This is a
strategic decision that carries a significant cost and there are many places
the project could go wrong. So, I'd map out every step of the conversion and
the translation processing before even discussing the process with the
client.

There are lots of good conversion resources and many excellent translators.
Sounds like the client needs someone that can orchestrate the process!


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Re: Pagemaker to FrameMaker conversion

2006-06-26 Thread Alan Litchfield

Carol J. Elkins wrote:

 1. Has anyone successfully converted from PageMaker to FrameMaker and, if
 so, what were the gotchas?

Reasonably successful, FM can import PM files directly. But...

1. Provided the original document uses properly formatted text and everything
is in one flow, otherwise some text can be lost.

2. Image data can be quite challenging, depending on your platform, and
whether you are swapping platforms at the same time.

3. Tabular data that has been created using Adobe Table is a real pain.

To get around the problems in 1-3 above I PDFd the original documents. This
gave me something to compare once the translation has been done. Vector art
images were extracted from the PDF using Illustrator. Raster images need to be
treateed on a case by case basis depending on the original file format, but
mostly I was able to select the image data from the PDF in Acrobat and paste
that into Photoshop. Tabular data can be copied from the PDF or exported as
TXT (real drag if there are a lot of tables).

If the originator was undisciplined you might find a lot of strange formats
that are brought into FM, or worse, Word formats. To fix these I have used
Paragraph Tools and Character Tools. Then gone back through them all and
assigned correct formats. Obviously this meant creating a template first and
importing the page, paragraph, character, etc. styles into each converted
chapter before tryin gto clean it all up.

There is a lot of work in the worst case, but can be straightforward if the
originator knew what they were doing.

 2. Can anyone recommend a translation vendor who could manage this conversion?



No, sorry. I can do conversion but not translation.

Cheers
Alan Litchfield

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Pagemaker to FrameMaker conversion

2006-06-26 Thread Carol J. Elkins
Currently, one of my clients uses a translation vendor (English to Spanish) 
who authors in PageMaker. They've asked me what it would entail to convert 
the PageMaker book to FrameMaker and change to a translation vendor who can 
work in Framemaker.

The book in question is 550 pages and is updated twice a year. I have never 
been involved in any localization project, so I'm pretty naive in this 
area. I have two main questions for Frame folks:

1. Has anyone successfully converted from PageMaker to FrameMaker and, if 
so, what were the gotchas?
2. Can anyone recommend a translation vendor who could manage this conversion?

Thanks, as always, for your help.

Carol
**
Carol J. Elkins---A Written Word LLC
Making Information Understandable
Phone: 719-948-3773
mailto:celkins at awrittenword.com
http://www.awrittenword.com
***




Pagemaker to FrameMaker conversion

2006-06-26 Thread Carol J. Elkins
Hi Mollye,

Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, my client doesn't know what he 
wants other than to reduce the twice yearly expense of printing the Spanish 
version of this book. I maintain this manual in FrameMaker and the gal who 
maintains the Spanish version works in PageMaker. I think my client needs 
to consider a new vendor for the Spanish version. Here are a couple of 
examples of why I think this: She has no experience with graphic formats, 
so she cuts and pastes graphics (the hardcopy version!) on which she has 
overlain the translated callouts. She sends these plus her native PageMaker 
files to the printer and the printer spends hours of table time getting 
them ready for prepress.  I suggested to this gal that she purchase Adobe 
Acrobat and send the PDF files to the printer. This she did. Now she thinks 
that Acrobat is her native application and wants to know how to make the 
changes in the PDF file. 

I suggested to my client that we might convert the doc to FrameMaker and 
have a "professional" manage revisions to the Spanish version. That would, 
at first glimpse, be a better idea than having my FrameMaker version 
translated to Spanish. So my query is really just a preliminary first pass 
at what I might need to consider if I make a recommendation to my client.

Structured Frame is not a practical option for this book.

I have no idea what the doc looks like in PageMaker. The FrameMaker 
template is excellent. Assuming that there is good mapping correlation, is 
there a PageMaker-to-FrameMaker conversion tool that you know of?

I've never heard the term "translation memory," so I don't know what to do 
with your comments that used it. Can you explain it a bit more?

Thanks!

Carol


At 05:28 PM 6/26/2006 -0500, Mollye Barrett wrote:
>Does the client really want the translation vendor to do the conversion?
>Perhaps what they're looking for is a migration plan for converting the
>PageMaker to Frame and then working with translation memory. Are all the
>languages they require supported by Frame? Do they have a strong template
>and/or EDD?
>
>We've worked with many conversions and the gotchas are always, it depends.
>The best projects are those with high stylesheet integrity on both sides of
>the conversion (of course, these are few and far between!). I'd consider get
>them into a structured Frame world, convert PageMaker PDFs to XML and,
>import the XML to Frame. A good EDD will handle the formatting and the
>client will have minimal upkeep on future revisions.
>
>If they have an existing PageMaker translation memory (full of formatting
>tags), their translator may be challenged with this change. As we all know,
>there's more to translations than handing off an input file. This is a
>strategic decision that carries a significant cost and there are many places
>the project could go wrong. So, I'd map out every step of the conversion and
>the translation processing before even discussing the process with the
>client.
>
>There are lots of good conversion resources and many excellent translators.
>Sounds like the client needs someone that can orchestrate the process!