Re: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way!
Yes, I figured that out. I believe I called Adobe tech support about the problem, so they should be aware of it. You're right, there's nothing wrong with the design of Adobe Pi. The moron was whoever did the Zapf Pi mapping in FrameMaker 8. The UI makeover in FM9 was wrong in so many ways that it would be a good negative example for UI design classes. Some of the people who did the work might be competent but the people in charge are world-class incompetents, up there with the geniuses behind OS/2, Microsoft Bob, and Clippy. On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Dov Isaacs isa...@adobe.com wrote: Please see the response I sent out a few minutes ago. There is nothing wrong with the Adobe Pi font, but rather, there is a nasty mapping issue that should have been resolved in FrameMaker if they in fact had a .ini file setting mapping Type 1 Zapf Dingbats to Adobe Pi or any other OpenType version of Zapf Dingbats. And quite frankly, I think it is a hell of a lot of chutzpa on your part to label the designers of Adobe Pi as “morons.” The font simply follows the international specifications for both OpenType fonts and Unicode encoding. How does that make them “morons?” Likewise, you may not like the UI makeover of FrameMaker (maybe I don’t either), but that doesn’t make those who designed and implemented it “morons.” ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way!
I know a lot about OS/2. I covered operating systems for PC World from 1989 to 1993 and used every version from 1.0 to 4.0. It was technically advanced in certain ways but utterly unsuitable for the average users IBM somehow thought would buy it. Microsoft had no choice but to unchain themselves from that sinking ship. On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 5:54 PM, Dov Isaacs isa...@adobe.com wrote: Maybe we can just stop labelling people as “morons” or “incompetents” … And by the way, if you know anything about the real history of OS/2, you wouldn’t be labelling them as “incompetents.” The fact was that OS/2 was supposed to be the enterprise OS for PCs as a joint Microsoft / IBM project until Microsoft stabbed IBM in the back deciding to go their own way and back out of their commitments. Technically, OS/2 was far ahead of Windows’9x and early Windows NT! ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way!
Dov, I didn't initiate this conversation, but I'd like to chime in. Your points are well taken, but a problem I had with the Adobe PI substitution was that simple bullets were coming across as question marks in my PDFs. That would indicate a mapping problem that is pretty obvious. Also, you might want to tell the Framemaker team that whenever I open a new DITA document in FrameMaker I get the following messages in the FrameMaker console: The Zapfdingbats Font Family is not available. Adobe Pi Std will be used in this session. The Zapfdingbats Regular Font is not available. AdobePiStd will be used in this session. If Adobe Pi Std is not a problem, maybe they should update the DITA templates for the next release and remove the source of this error. That is, unless Zapf-Dingbats is somehow part of the DITA standard (which really can't be true). The fewer the error messages the more likely we are to see critical errors. Thanks for all your insights. Craig From: isa...@adobe.com To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 22:07:05 -0800 Subject: RE: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way! Exactly what is the problem you have with Adobe Pi? Adobe Pi was designed to serve as a substitute for Zapf Dingbats originally for Acrobat and Reader and then for other Adobe applications. Although the design of each of the glyphs is not identical, Adobe Pi does do a fairly good job as a substitute and in some cases, the glyphs are much more modern looking than Zapf Dingbat’s highly dated look. attachment: image001.png___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way!
Adobe Pi's character map is different than the Type 1 Zapf that used to be included with FrameMaker, so without the old font the solid, hollow, and square bullets in the template I inherited showed up as question marks in my online help and PDF. Maybe Adobe Pi was designed by the same morons who did the UI makeover in FrameMaker 9. On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 10:07 PM, Dov Isaacs isa...@adobe.com wrote: Exactly what is the problem you have with Adobe Pi? Adobe Pi was designed to serve as a substitute for Zapf Dingbats originally for Acrobat and Reader and then for other Adobe applications. Although the design of each of the glyphs is not identical, Adobe Pi does do a fairly good job as a substitute and in some cases, the glyphs are much more modern looking than Zapf Dingbat’s highly dated look. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way!
Craig, I will assume that the symptoms you are reporting are indeed occurring! That being the case, it would appear that FrameMaker is simply not mapping the Type 1 Zapf Dingbats character positions to the proper positions in Adobe Pi, a Unicode-based OpenType CFF font. In the old Type 1 fonts, symbols simply replaced the standard ASCII glyphs for both mapping and keying. This is absolutely not true for Unicode-based symbol fonts; thus the need for glyph palettes. If I recall correctly, InDesign tackled this issue years ago by automatically remapping characters in certain key fonts such as Type 1 Symbol and Zapf Dingbats to Unicode within the document when old documents were opened and then did a hack to output with such fonts, the user none the wiser! Any correct modern OpenType Zapf Dingbats font, regardless of source (including the OpenType version from Adobe) will have this same mapping issue. The only workaround which I specified before was to somehow get your hands on one of the old Type 1 Zapf Dingbat host based fonts that ship with Adobe PostScript printers. Either you or the OP in this thread should report this issue as a bug in FrameMaker. If they map the font name Zapf Dingbats to Adobe Pi then they absolutely need to remap the characters formatted in Zapf Dingbats to their new Unicode value, either permanently in the FrameMaker document if the change is permanent or simply for display and print purposes. Fill out a bug form on Adobe's website. - Dov [cid:image001.png@01CDF59F.3A828590] Dov Isaacs Principal Scientist Adobe Systems Incorporated +1 408.536.2896 (tel) +1 408.242.5161 (cell) isa...@adobe.commailto:isa...@adobe.com 345 Park Avenue San Jose, CA 95110-2704 USA http://www.adobe.comhttp://www.adobe.com/ Feel free to print this e-mail if your needs dictate hard copy. There is no need to feel guilty about printing! Paper is renewable and recyclable. ISAACS-MOBILE.corp.adobe.com From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Craig Ede Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 7:25 AM To: framers Subject: RE: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way! Importance: High Dov, I didn't initiate this conversation, but I'd like to chime in. Your points are well taken, but a problem I had with the Adobe PI substitution was that simple bullets were coming across as question marks in my PDFs. That would indicate a mapping problem that is pretty obvious. Also, you might want to tell the Framemaker team that whenever I open a new DITA document in FrameMaker I get the following messages in the FrameMaker console: The Zapfdingbats Font Family is not available. Adobe Pi Std will be used in this session. The Zapfdingbats Regular Font is not available. AdobePiStd will be used in this session. If Adobe Pi Std is not a problem, maybe they should update the DITA templates for the next release and remove the source of this error. That is, unless Zapf-Dingbats is somehow part of the DITA standard (which really can't be true). The fewer the error messages the more likely we are to see critical errors. Thanks for all your insights. Craig From: isa...@adobe.commailto:isa...@adobe.com To: framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 22:07:05 -0800 Subject: RE: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way! Exactly what is the problem you have with Adobe Pi? Adobe Pi was designed to serve as a substitute for Zapf Dingbats originally for Acrobat and Reader and then for other Adobe applications. Although the design of each of the glyphs is not identical, Adobe Pi does do a fairly good job as a substitute and in some cases, the glyphs are much more modern looking than Zapf Dingbat's highly dated look. inline: image001.png___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way!
Robert, Please see the response I sent out a few minutes ago. There is nothing wrong with the Adobe Pi font, but rather, there is a nasty mapping issue that should have been resolved in FrameMaker if they in fact had a .ini file setting mapping Type 1 Zapf Dingbats to Adobe Pi or any other OpenType version of Zapf Dingbats. And quite frankly, I think it is a hell of a lot of chutzpa on your part to label the designers of Adobe Pi as morons. The font simply follows the international specifications for both OpenType fonts and Unicode encoding. How does that make them morons? Likewise, you may not like the UI makeover of FrameMaker (maybe I don't either), but that doesn't make those who designed and implemented it morons. - Dov [cid:image001.png@01CDF5A0.805BE150] Dov Isaacs Principal Scientist Adobe Systems Incorporated +1 408.536.2896 (tel) +1 408.242.5161 (cell) isa...@adobe.commailto:isa...@adobe.com 345 Park Avenue San Jose, CA 95110-2704 USA http://www.adobe.comhttp://www.adobe.com/ Feel free to print this e-mail if your needs dictate hard copy. There is no need to feel guilty about printing! Paper is renewable and recyclable. ISAACS-MOBILE.corp.adobe.com From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 9:19 AM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way! Adobe Pi's character map is different than the Type 1 Zapf that used to be included with FrameMaker, so without the old font the solid, hollow, and square bullets in the template I inherited showed up as question marks in my online help and PDF. Maybe Adobe Pi was designed by the same morons who did the UI makeover in FrameMaker 9. On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 10:07 PM, Dov Isaacs isa...@adobe.commailto:isa...@adobe.com wrote: Exactly what is the problem you have with Adobe Pi? Adobe Pi was designed to serve as a substitute for Zapf Dingbats originally for Acrobat and Reader and then for other Adobe applications. Although the design of each of the glyphs is not identical, Adobe Pi does do a fairly good job as a substitute and in some cases, the glyphs are much more modern looking than Zapf Dingbat's highly dated look. ___ inline: image001.png___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way!
Maybe we can just stop labelling people as morons or incompetents ... And by the way, if you know anything about the real history of OS/2, you wouldn't be labelling them as incompetents. The fact was that OS/2 was supposed to be the enterprise OS for PCs as a joint Microsoft / IBM project until Microsoft stabbed IBM in the back deciding to go their own way and back out of their commitments. Technically, OS/2 was far ahead of Windows'9x and early Windows NT! - Dov From: robert.lauris...@gmail.com [mailto:robert.lauris...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 5:48 PM To: Dov Isaacs; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way! Yes, I figured that out. I believe I called Adobe tech support about the problem, so they should be aware of it. You're right, there's nothing wrong with the design of Adobe Pi. The moron was whoever did the Zapf Pi mapping in FrameMaker 8. The UI makeover in FM9 was wrong in so many ways that it would be a good negative example for UI design classes. Some of the people who did the work might be competent but the people in charge are world-class incompetents, up there with the geniuses behind OS/2, Microsoft Bob, and Clippy. On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Dov Isaacs isa...@adobe.commailto:isa...@adobe.com wrote: Please see the response I sent out a few minutes ago. There is nothing wrong with the Adobe Pi font, but rather, there is a nasty mapping issue that should have been resolved in FrameMaker if they in fact had a .ini file setting mapping Type 1 Zapf Dingbats to Adobe Pi or any other OpenType version of Zapf Dingbats. And quite frankly, I think it is a hell of a lot of chutzpa on your part to label the designers of Adobe Pi as morons. The font simply follows the international specifications for both OpenType fonts and Unicode encoding. How does that make them morons? Likewise, you may not like the UI makeover of FrameMaker (maybe I don't either), but that doesn't make those who designed and implemented it morons. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way!
And while we are on the topic of fonts and FrameMaker, can someone suggest a reasonable way to get the ZapfDingbat font cheaply, since the default FM installation often complains about this font not being available (even using their templates). BTW: I understand Adobe not wanting to license it with its products anymore, but the default replacement that FM substitutes is completely silly. From: syed.hos...@aeris.net To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 00:08:53 -0800 Subject: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way! Hi, all (particularly Dov Isaacs, as I seem to remember that you know a lot about Adobe fonts)... ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but ... related in a way!
Adobe must have done business with them as they now own Macromedia's old product Fontographer. Craig From: syed.hos...@aeris.net To: i...@mikewickham.com; framers@lists.frameusers.com Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 07:23:18 -0800 Subject: RE: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but ... related in a way! Thanks for that link, Mike. I will take a look at that site. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way!
Exactly what is the problem you have with Adobe Pi? Adobe Pi was designed to serve as a substitute for Zapf Dingbats originally for Acrobat and Reader and then for other Adobe applications. Although the design of each of the glyphs is not identical, Adobe Pi does do a fairly good job as a substitute and in some cases, the glyphs are much more modern looking than Zapf Dingbat's highly dated look. If you really want ITC Zapf Dingbats, you really need to look no further than any printer you have that has Adobe PostScript. Each such printer should have a host software package that includes copies of all the printer resident fonts, including the Type 1 version of ITC Zapf Dingbats for use on computers using the particular printer. Problem solved! - Dov [cid:image001.png@01CDF4FE.FBFD6290] Dov Isaacs Principal Scientist Adobe Systems Incorporated +1 408.536.2896 (tel) +1 408.242.5161 (cell) isa...@adobe.commailto:isa...@adobe.com 345 Park Avenue San Jose, CA 95110-2704 USA http://www.adobe.comhttp://www.adobe.com/ Feel free to print this e-mail if your needs dictate hard copy. There is no need to feel guilty about printing! Paper is renewable and recyclable. ISAACS-MOBILE.corp.adobe.com From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:26 AM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way! I had a confusing problem with the three Zapf bullets my inherited templates use for nested lists not rendering. Eventually I figured out that the Type 1 font had never been installed on my computer because the master font directory was missing the .pfb file. I didn't really want to install such an old font so I tried font replacement of Zapfdingbat with ZapfDingbats BT, that didn't work because the character set is not the same. Eventually I decided to use Arial Black's Unicode characters 2022, 25E6, and 25AA instead. Why Adobe mapped Zapf to Adobe Pi Std in the first place ... ___ inline: image001.png___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way!
I, too, wish there were an upgrade path for fonts. Though I haven't tried them, something else to look at might be the various font conversion utilities. Searching on font conversion turned up several free online utilities. You can also buy professional conversion utilities at http://www.fontlab.com. Mike Wickham ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but ... related in a way!
Thanks for that link, Mike. I will take a look at that site. Although I hazard a guess that this would get me the same info in the new formats, but not really deal, of course, with font corrections/tweaks that the Adobe Designer might have made, or Unicode additions, etc. Z I, too, wish there were an upgrade path for fonts. Though I haven't tried them, something else to look at might be the various font conversion utilities. Searching on font conversion turned up several free online utilities. You can also buy professional conversion utilities at http://www.fontlab.com. Mike Wickham ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way!
With regards to updating old versions of Adobe fonts ... (1)For better or for worse, Adobe has never offered any upgrades for users of individual typefaces or full font families licensed from Adobe. This includes not only the original Type 1 fonts, but also Multiple Master and now OpenType fonts (yes, there have been significant updates and improvements in those fonts since they were first released over a dozen years ago). The only upgrades that Adobe offers are for licensees of the Adobe Font Folio products. (I will not even attempt to provide the business reasons for this or justify it any way, but those were the decisions made. FWIW, Adobe's policies in terms of font upgrades is fairly consistent with industry practice.) (2)Originally, the OpenType format was also supposed to support a Multiple Master flavor of fonts, but this was dropped shortly before the first release of the OpenType fonts due to the objections of Microsoft who refused to support such a feature. When Adobe made the OpenType versions of the Type 1 Multiple Master fonts, it made an individual font to match each and every one of the primary instances of the comparable Type 1 Multiple Master font in terms of weight, style, optical style, etc. In some cases, extra fonts were added to reflect common customized Multiple Master instances that were believed to be in use and of general usefulness to users. Migrating from Multiple Master to OpenType requires you to match the Type 1 Multiple Master font instance with the particular member of the comparable OpenType font family. (3)With regards to converting fonts - let's say from Type 1 to OpenType, we strongly discourage that. Although this may sound self-serving and even assuming you use a product that preserves hinting and metrics, you gain virtually nothing from such conversions other than a repackaging of the font. In producing the OpenType version of its type library, quite a bit of work was done in the area of adjusting and correcting metrics, supporting Unicode, creating links that allow for automatic use of ligatures in page layout programs, easy access to alternative and swash characters, small caps, and old style figures, etc. Given that Adobe hasn't release any Type 1 or Multiple Master fonts in a dozen years, from a business perspective, you can readily declare that your Type 1 fonts from Adobe are fully depreciated. Adobe is not abandoning Type 1 support in any of its products (nor do we have any plans for such abandonment) and we absolutely cannot eliminate Type 1 and Multiple Master support for Acrobat (for the obvious reason that we will forever need to support embedded fonts in existing PDF files). What I typically recommend is for users to continue to use their Type 1 fonts with existing documents and publications and add the OpenType fonts as necessary under any one or more of the following scenarios: (1)You create a new publication (or artwork) or significantly modify the style of an existing publication (or artwork). (2)You need to have cross-platform compatibility for editing. (3)You need access to the typographical and multilingual features (via Unicode) of OpenType fonts. Further note that the OpenType fonts from Adobe have different names (typically suffixed with either Std - standard character sets or Pro - extended character sets often with support for one or more non-Western Latin alphabets) than the Type 1 or Multiple Master fonts they replace. You will need to do some edit work to migrate an existing document to use of OpenType (note that this is where use of paragraph and character styles really pays off handsomely!). We purposely did this renaming in order to avoid any misperception of 100% compatibility of the Type 1 to OpenType migration. There is minor chance of text reflow, but also the possibility of problems with mapping of non-ASCII characters (this is especially true for all characters in fonts such as Symbol, Carta, Sonata, and Zapf Dingbats). -Dov [cid:image001.png@01CDF41A.14B92F20] Dov Isaacs Principal Scientist Adobe Systems Incorporated +1 408.536.2896 (tel) +1 408.242.5161 (cell) isa...@adobe.commailto:isa...@adobe.com 345 Park Avenue San Jose, CA 95110-2704 USA http://www.adobe.comhttp://www.adobe.com/ Feel free to print this e-mail if your needs dictate hard copy. There is no need to feel guilty about printing! Paper is renewable and recyclable. ISAACS-OFFICE.corp.adobe.com From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net) Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:09 AM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Updating older versions of Adobe fonts? Slightly off-topic, but related in a way! Hi, all (particularly Dov Isaacs, as I seem to remember that you know a lot about Adobe fonts). Over the years, I bought a number of
