RE: Syntax for if/then statement
Our new editor wants to add the word and to such statements - if blah, blah, AND then blah, blah. But that doesn't even make sense grammatically! The closest thing I can find is in the Microsoft Manual of Style for Technical Publications, it's the if/when/whether thing. I know that doesn't help. Surely the fact that the mind instinctively shrinks in horror from the sentence structure he's proposing should count for something though, shouldn't it? Anne The information contained in or attached to this e-mail contains confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail is PROHIBITED. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender and delete the e-mail immediately. Thank you. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Syntax for if/then statement
Tammy, It seems to me that and changes the meaning entirely! When you say If A, then B. It means that if A occurs or exists, B will follow or exist. If you say If A, and then B. The sentence is rendered incomplete. It makes B part of the original IF clause (I wouldn't use a comma when anding two items) and leaves you hanging, waiting for the other shoe to drop. If A and then B, then C will soon follow. For example: If the new editor prevails, and then the boss buys into it, then you have no choice but to type up your resume. Jim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:22 AM To: framers@frameusers.com Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement All, I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If blah, blah, then blah, blah. We have a new editor that just joined who is in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an opinion about what is right and what is wrong in editing . . .in many cases, it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the emotional because we've always done it this way. Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word and to such statements - if blah, blah, AND then blah, blah. Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then - no and. I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's where the if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . . Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated. TIA, TVB Tammy Van Boening Senior Technical Writer Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc. 303-328-4420 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/jlight%40pillardata. com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Syntax for if/then statement
Hi Tammy, Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further: That style guide states that you should avoid the if...then construction altogether and not use the word then at all in such situations. That is, you should simply say something like If such-and-such is true, do this. This has also been the policy/practice with my past and present employers and clients. I formerly also used if...then constructions almost exclusively, so it was a challenge for me to adhere to this standard when I first encountered it. But after thinking it through, I eventually agreed that it is cleaner and more succinct. However, YMMV. In the end, it may come down to what your company/organization decides to use as the standard. If that is the case, it will come down to a question of who has the final authority to make such decisions on behalf of the organization. Hopefully, that will not be done willy-nilly, with no regard for the preferences of all parties involved; but in the end, if you all just cannot agree, *some*one has to be the final arbiter. If that is not you, you may have to just be prepared to bite the bullet and go along with it. Somewhat ironically, the only people who care passionately enough about such matters to discuss, debate, and defend them vehemently and endlessly are the documentation folks, typically. Our readers could probably not care less. FWIW, Chuck Beck -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 1:22 PM To: framers@frameusers.com Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement All, I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If blah, blah, then blah, blah. We have a new editor that just joined who is in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an opinion about what is right and what is wrong in editing . . .in many cases, it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the emotional because we've always done it this way. Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word and to such statements - if blah, blah, AND then blah, blah. Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then - no and. I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's where the if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . . Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated. TIA, TVB Tammy Van Boening Senior Technical Writer Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc. 303-328-4420 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/charles.beck%40infor .com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Syntax for if/then statement
For example: If the new editor prevails, and then the boss buys into it, then you have no choice but to type up your resume. Brilliant example! But let's end on a happy note... Else hire a new editor. ;-) -- Bill Swallow HATT List Owner WWP-Users List Owner Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter http://techcommdood.blogspot.com ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Syntax for if/then statement
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Beck, Charles Hi Tammy, Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further: That style guide states that you should avoid the if...then construction altogether and not use the word then at all in such situations. That is, you should simply say something like If such-and-such is true, do this. MMoS may not like if..., then, but that doesn't mean it agrees with the editor. There's a big difference between saying the then is unnecessary and saying you need to add an and. This has also been the policy/practice with my past and present employers and clients. I formerly also used if...then constructions almost exclusively, so it was a challenge for me to adhere to this standard when I first encountered it. But after thinking it through, I eventually agreed that it is cleaner and more succinct. For what it's worth, I rarely use then in this situation, but using then is much better than using and then. As others have said, in this construction, that's just grammatically wrong. Bob Love people. Use things. Not vice-versa. -- Kelly Rothaus ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Syntax for if/then statement
Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further: That style guide states that you should avoid the if...then construction altogether and not use the word then at all in such situations. That is, you should simply say something like If such-and-such is true, do this. Right, but the recommended construct is if A, do B not if A, and do B... Somewhat ironically, the only people who care passionately enough about such matters to discuss, debate, and defend them vehemently and endlessly are the documentation folks, typically. Our readers could probably not care less. Actually, in the case of a if/and then construction, I'll bet the readers would care and be just a tad bit confused. -- Bill Swallow HATT List Owner WWP-Users List Owner Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter http://techcommdood.blogspot.com ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Syntax for if/then statement
Right-o, Bill. I had neglected to notice the full context of the construct, and issued my first response too hastily. My bad. However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, If such-and-such is true, then do this, or If such-and-such is true, do this. Chuck -Original Message- From: Bill Swallow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 2:09 PM To: Beck, Charles Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; framers@frameusers.com Subject: Re: Syntax for if/then statement Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further: That style guide states that you should avoid the if...then construction altogether and not use the word then at all in such situations. That is, you should simply say something like If such-and-such is true, do this. Right, but the recommended construct is if A, do B not if A, and do B... Somewhat ironically, the only people who care passionately enough about such matters to discuss, debate, and defend them vehemently and endlessly are the documentation folks, typically. Our readers could probably not care less. Actually, in the case of a if/and then construction, I'll bet the readers would care and be just a tad bit confused. -- Bill Swallow HATT List Owner WWP-Users List Owner Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter http://techcommdood.blogspot.com ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Syntax for if/then statement
However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, If such-and-such is true, then do this, or If such-and-such is true, do this. Right, then is assumed, just as you is assumed in your examples. :-) I'll bet many non-English languages will put then back in when it's translated. -- Bill Swallow HATT List Owner WWP-Users List Owner Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter http://techcommdood.blogspot.com ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Syntax for if/then statement
The Chicago Manual of Style, 15th Edition, section 5.182, says:
Correlative conjunctions are used in pairs, often to join successive
clauses that depend on each other to form a complete thought . . . {If
the first claim is true, then the second claim must be false} . . . Some
examples of correlative conjunctions are as-as, if-then, either-or,
neither-nor . . .
jan e patterson
environmental systems products - sr technical writer
tucson, az 85745
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:22 AM
To: framers@frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement
All,
I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If blah,
blah, then blah, blah. We have a new editor that just joined who is
in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone
has an opinion about what is right and what is wrong in editing . .
.in many cases, it's so subjective. That said, when we have our
editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to
be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or
standard - not just the emotional because we've always done it this
way. Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements
this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor
wants to add the word and to such statements - if blah, blah, AND
then blah, blah. Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor
on this one - it should be just if/then - no and. I have tried for the
life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this
syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I
know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me
to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are
writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's
where the if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . .
Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.
TIA,
TVB
Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: Syntax for if/then statement
Hmmm. Doesn't make much sense to me. In a *sentence* if a, then b, the word then isn't required. It's really an emphasis attached to b. For example, you could say If you are using Windows, follow these instructions: and omit the then. The word that really joins the two phrases is if, which is a conjunction; if appears first because you've reserved the phrase order. That is, by the way, the real reason you need the comma. To say If you are using Windows, and then follow these instructions is grammatically incorrect. You have have *both* a *subordinate* conjunction (if) and a *coordinate* conjunction (and) connecting the same two phrases! Joe Malin Technical Writer (408)625-1623 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.tuvox.com The views expressed in this document are those of the sender, and do not necessarily reflect those of TuVox, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:22 AM To: framers@frameusers.com Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement All, I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If blah, blah, then blah, blah. We have a new editor that just joined who is in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an opinion about what is right and what is wrong in editing . . .in many cases, it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the emotional because we've always done it this way. Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word and to such statements - if blah, blah, AND then blah, blah. Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then - no and. I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's where the if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . . Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated. TIA, TVB Tammy Van Boening Senior Technical Writer Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc. 303-328-4420 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/jmalin%40tuvox.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
