Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
That is so cool it's unbelievable! Ted - Original Message - From: Robert Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 1:52 PM Subject: RE: Explaining FreeBSD features On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: And I can tell you that absolutely nothing that I have EVER read here or on USENET has EVER held a candle to the power and majesty of the flames I used to read a decade ago the old WWIV network. (that software is available http://wwiv.sourceforge.net/ if you are interested) If you are put off by the tone of what you see here, you would become catatonic if you read 5 minutes of that. Those flamers were so good that they could cause temporary blindness to their victims. Ted, As an apparent ex-WWIV user, you might be amused by this: http://www.watson.org/~robert/star-lit/wwiv/ (ex-WWIV BBS Sysop from the early 1990's) Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Explaining FreeBSD features
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: And I can tell you that absolutely nothing that I have EVER read here or on USENET has EVER held a candle to the power and majesty of the flames I used to read a decade ago the old WWIV network. (that software is available http://wwiv.sourceforge.net/ if you are interested) If you are put off by the tone of what you see here, you would become catatonic if you read 5 minutes of that. Those flamers were so good that they could cause temporary blindness to their victims. Ted, As an apparent ex-WWIV user, you might be amused by this: http://www.watson.org/~robert/star-lit/wwiv/ (ex-WWIV BBS Sysop from the early 1990's) Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Hi, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: _I_ don't. Who does? Some do a logo contest to make FreeBSD more appearing, there is some activity going in. Most of the rank and file argued long against that contest. Not only them. Why should I study the drivers manual before getting a drivers license? I do not know why people do it. I just learned driving in a deserted place. I didn't say learned driving I said get a license You have to learn what's in the manual to pass the test to get the license. I also never studied that one. With other words: there is more than one way to get the knowledge. It's not a question of trust, it's a question of do I understand what is going to happen. I find post-operative pain a lot easier to bear when I know why it's hurting. I do not bother to understand as long they say it is all right. Ah, but help on who's terms? Telling a newbie to RTFM for an answer that he asks which is in the manual IS help. Yes, it is help. But how dumb does a person have to be if this is of real help? Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
On Thursday 23 June 2005 12:16 pm, Johnson David wrote: From: cali [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The idea is, the newbie gets repeatedly told RTFM, so that eventually they get the idea that they must work it out for themselves because they develop this inner fear of asking for help and being ridiculed, ie they don't want to portray themselves as a lamer. Usually it works. If by works, you mean people leave the community, then you are correct. We all know what F in RTFM means. While we may not say it with those words anymore, we still often say it with the same abusive attitude. It's far more productive to say RTM than RTFM. It is an unfortunate fact that many other communities have trained their users to never read their manuals. Some communities don't even have decent manuals to read. We should not be punishing these users for their ignorance on the proper means to ask questions. Let them RTM. The next time tell them RTM on page 29. If they say they've read the manual but haven't, tell them sorry, but don't abuse them. They're not lying so much as doing what they've been trained to do. Only when they persist in not reading the manual so you flame them a new orafice. And then do it off list. David I have, on occasion, used RTFM, ignoring the F; but not thinking about whether the reader would ignore it as well -- poor form on my part. I will certainly drop the F in the future. Thanks for the lesson. ;-) Andrew Gould ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Andrew L. Gould [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thursday 23 June 2005 12:16 pm, Johnson David wrote: If by works, you mean people leave the community, then you are correct. We all know what F in RTFM means. While we may not say it with those words anymore, we still often say it with the same abusive attitude. It's far more productive to say RTM than RTFM. I have, on occasion, used RTFM, ignoring the F; but not thinking about whether the reader would ignore it as well -- poor form on my part. I will certainly drop the F in the future. Why? Everybody knows the F stands for Fine :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
On Thu(23)/Jun/05 - , Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: Andrew L. Gould [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thursday 23 June 2005 12:16 pm, Johnson David wrote: If by works, you mean people leave the community, then you are correct. We all know what F in RTFM means. While we may not say it with those words anymore, we still often say it with the same abusive attitude. It's far more productive to say RTM than RTFM. I have, on occasion, used RTFM, ignoring the F; but not thinking about whether the reader would ignore it as well -- poor form on my part. I will certainly drop the F in the future. Why? Everybody knows the F stands for Fine :) Wow, is that DES writing an email with a smiley face in it? Maybe god does exist after all. -- - Liam J. Foy [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Explaining FreeBSD features
-Original Message- From: Erich Dollansky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 5:57 PM To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Fafa Hafiz Krantz; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features I do not think that it the design of Windows which makes it target. It is the kind of support people with no knowledge get which makes it. People pay for Windows, not for FreeBSD. The support structures are totally different because of this. If support is what hinges on getting the no knowledge people on board, then you may as well give up now because your never going to be able to fund the kind of support structure Windows has from FreeBSD. This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works and how computer software that runs on it works in order to get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it works. I do not think so. If people with no knowledge would get proper answers when they run into problems instead of the hint to read the manual would help a lot here. Why should they? If they were paying someone for FreeBSD support that is one thing. Nobody is getting paid to answer questions on the mailing list and on Usenet, if a no-knowledge person asks a question that is answered in the manual, then it is going overboard already, to even tell them to RTFM. They really shouldn't be asking questions if they haven't RTFMed. What is the difference to FreeBSD if the system is running once? Bringing a large number of ignoramuses on board who are dedicated to continuing to be ignoramuses, does not help the FreeBSD project at all. It may help some people making money off servicing those people, but otherwise they are deadweight. You know, even raw newbies who have RTFM can help the FreeBSD project by answering posts on the support forums with pointers to the manual!! There is no need for an interface like this if the people starting with no computer knowledge would get proper help just to get the machine up and running. Proper help is in the manual, it is in my book, and in Greg Lehey's book, and in several other books written by a number of people. My book is in the local public library, check it out! So, I believe, is Greg's. The official manual is online. There are hundreds of web pages that people have setup regarding FreeBSD installation that come up with Google. I am sorry you are going to have to do better than that. The proper help is out there, you just have to spend a little effort looking for it. Let it tell me this way. I have a neighbour who has a Ph.D. in biology. If she would give me the same answer when it comes to gardening, I would stop gardening as I do not want to know the background. All I want to know is how I can get rid of a special kind of pest. I can only ask why do you bother to garden in the first place? Without that background, you don't know why the pesticide that she recommends works. And next season if it doesen't work, you don't know why either. It's like the saying give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime You just want the fish - I want to feed myself for the rest of my life. Sadly, your attitude is one of the reasons that the United States is being run into the ground by a bunch of religious conservatives these days. Those people are just like you - they don't want to know anything about Stem Cell research, they just want to be told whether it's bad or not. Honestly, before you knock it, you should try to understand how the world works sometime. It's really a better way to live. Do you really want to die like your distant ancestors did - not knowing why the rain falls, or the wind blows, or the sun and moon rise and set? Should the human species strive for an advanced technological society where all the members have absolutely no clue as to how anything they use in their daily life even works? Are we to become a society of infants, with the machines taking care of us because we do not understand how they operate? Ted ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Explaining FreeBSD features
-Original Message- From: Erich Dollansky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 9:37 PM To: Vulpes Velox Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features Hi, Vulpes Velox wrote: Ignorant useless users should be supported by commercial ventures, not community ones. They will just drag the community down with their weight if they don't help out. This would be the real tough one. There should also be a way to write some kind of descripton for the people between. I found the handbook to be useful in this area. Yes, if you understand it. It is written be serious IT professionals for serious IT professionals. Even a serious none IT professional has problems understanding it. Then read one of the many FreeBSD books. The one by Annelise Anderson is most certainly not written for serious IT professionals. I know because I have read it. Our problem is that we all do not know the people who would speak the language none IT professionals understand. No, your problem is that you are confusing TRAINING with INSTRUCTION. The FreeBSD project has an obligation to provide instructions with the system. That, they do. But they do not have an obligation to provide training, nor does any company for their product. Even Microsoft charges extra for that. Ted ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Andrew L. Gould wrote: On Monday 20 June 2005 07:37 pm, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: *snip* FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people. Clearly its weakest point. Once again, that depends on your audience. If you ask me, its one of FreeBSD's strongest points. Im one of those technical people, and the main reason I like BSD is that its not dumbed down. It does require atleast a minimal amount of clue, and it does not take for granted that the user is an idiot. -- R I am not one of the those technical people. From a non-tech's viewpoint, it is a demanding operating system; but I am a more competent and more responsible computer user for the trouble. Maybe that's a good point to explore: convenience rarely breeds responsibility. (What's the line from spiderman?...with great power comes great responsibility?) Put another way: The best things in life are earned. Fafa, Roger is right about analyzing/choosing your audience. If your audience would be truly interested in FreeBSD, don't underestimate them (but make sure to provide a list of references for further reading). If they need the discussion dumbed down, your probably wasting both your time and theirs. I could be completely wrong; but that's my 2 cents. Andrew Gould If they need the discussion dumbed down, then FreeBSD is probably not for them. Im not saying FreeBSD should *try* to make things harder, but it most certainly should not try to simplify things to the extreme. There are enough os's doing that already. -- R ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
On 2005-06-22 11:09, Warren Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt said: The 4a users, by contrast, may be attracted to Linux initially due to the ease-of-entry issue your bringing up. But they try it and find out that it's dumbed-down interface gets in the way just as much as the Windows dumbed-down interface. That's where I think the majority of new FreeBSD converts come from - people that started with Windows, outgrew it, tried Linux for a while and got disgusted with the hand-holding, then went to FreeBSD and never looked back. I think you're probably right. This pretty much describes how I came to FreeBSD. I just wonder if there is some way to shorten the trip and take Linux completely out of the loop. Looking back, I wish I had known about FreeBSD sooner. It would have saved me quite a bit of frustration. I think FreeBSD would have been a much better platform for me to learn UNIX on because I wouldn't have had to endure a paradigm shift in order to continue the learning process. However, I suppose that having used Linux made me appreciate the fundamental quality of FreeBSD more than I may have otherwise. Hehehe. AOLMe too/AOL These days, I don't use Linux if I have a choise, but I do appreciate the time spent learning the ropes of a UNIX-like system with early Slackware versions. - Giorgos (Who was converted to FreeBSD after several years of Linux, and that by sheer accident, when he tried to install OpenBSD and utterly trashed his partition table, losing all traces of Linux *AND* that other OS, in a [now] fondly remembered evening.) ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Explaining FreeBSD features
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Fafa Hafiz Krantz Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 12:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features Hello. Thank you all for everything so far. But I am not looking for comparisons. I am looking for stuff that has been written so that people can understand. Let's say this: Multi-threaded SMP architecture capable of executing the kernel in parallel on multiple processors, and with kernel preemption, allowing high priority kernel tasks to preempt other kernel activity, reducing latency. This includes a multi-threaded network stack and a multi-threaded virtual memory subsystem. With FreeBSD 6.x, support for a fully parallel VFS allows the UFS file system to run on multiple processors simultaneously, permitting load sharing of CPU-intensive I/O optimization. In the real world, that ought to sound more like: FreeBSD includes support for symmetric multiprocessing and multithreading. This makes the kernel lock down levels of interfaces and buffers, minimizing the chance of threads on different processors blocking each other, to give maximum performance on multiprocessor systems. Fafa, I've seen these kinds of efforts before and they are all generally doomed to failure. You see, the problem is that FreeBSD is not a general computer operating system product. It is a very specific product in fact. Now, the USES that FreeBSD can be put to are VERY general. BUT, do NOT make the mistake of confusing the fact that just because FreeBSD can be put to general use, that somehow it is a general product. It is not. FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people: 1) Very knowledgeable people who are using it for personal, or in-house corporate projects. 2) Very knowledgeable people who are using it to construct turnkey systems for customers who couldn't care less what is under the hood. By contrast, Windows and Linux are in fact, general computer operating system products. They are targeted at groups #1 and #2, but they are also targeted at group #3 which are: 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long as it works. This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works and how computer software that runs on it works in order to get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it works. Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the interface to their operating systems. Thus, an ignoramus can get up and running with both of these systems, and that person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough to get the job done. It may be a half-assed fix, but it is better than nothing. FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this. For starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux or Windows, so why mess with it? But, most importantly, a dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person, and over time becomes a tremendous liability. With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the Catch-22 is old-fashioned mental elbow grease. In short, by learning a bit at a time, expanding on that, and repeating the process. It is a long slow way to get to know anything, but once you get there, you really do know everything in intimate detail. This isn't a popular thing to tell newbies. Ted Thanks. -- Fafa Hafiz Krantz Research Designer @ http://www.home.no/barbershop Enlightened @ http://www.home.no/barbershop/smart/sharon.pdf -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Explaining FreeBSD features
Ted Mittelstaedt said: FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people: 1) Very knowledgeable people who are using it for personal, or in-house corporate projects. 2) Very knowledgeable people who are using it to construct turnkey systems for customers who couldn't care less what is under the hood. By contrast, Windows and Linux are in fact, general computer operating system products. They are targeted at groups #1 and #2, but they are also targeted at group #3 which are: 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long as it works. This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works and how computer software that runs on it works in order to get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it works. Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the interface to their operating systems. Thus, an ignoramus can get up and running with both of these systems, and that person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough to get the job done. It may be a half-assed fix, but it is better than nothing. FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this. For starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux or Windows, so why mess with it? But, most importantly, a dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person, and over time becomes a tremendous liability. I agree that these 3 groups exist and that FreeBSD is probably not appropriate for those in group #3. However, I think there is another group that is not represented here. That would be those that are not in group #3 because they DO care about understanding how things work, but are also not in groups #1 or #2 because, although they may be relatively knowledgeable about computers when compared to group #3, they have never used a non-Microsoft OS. Lets call these people group #4. I think that, although Linux aspires to group #3, it is actually from group #4 which they gain most of their converts. The efforts that Linux has made to dumb down their interface make it easier for those in group #4 to understand because it is closer to what they already know. I think that projects like PCBSD are also targeting group #4 by lowering the bar for entry into the enlightened world of BSD. Having installed PCBSD a while back, I was impressed with the easy installation. Although I, being a somewhat experienced FreeBSD user, would prefer more control over the installation process, I feel confident in recommending PCBSD to friends in group #4. This is something I had stopped doing with FreeBSD because of the hand-holding necessary just to get it installed and configured enough to be even remotely usable by someone with their experience. With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the Catch-22 is old-fashioned mental elbow grease. In short, by learning a bit at a time, expanding on that, and repeating the process. It is a long slow way to get to know anything, but once you get there, you really do know everything in intimate detail. This isn't a popular thing to tell newbies. I agree that there is no substitute for this learning process. Perhaps the generally high level of technical knowledge of those in the FreeBSD community can be attributed more to the weeding-out process of having to break this Catch-22 than to anything else. However, I can see benefits of lowering the cost-of-admission a little by making the installation easier, as PCBSD has done. Making it easier for newbies to get started with this learning process will increase the number who find they have what it takes to see it through and become valuable members of the FreeBSD community. -- Warren Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Fafa, I've seen these kinds of efforts before and they are all generally doomed to failure. You see, the problem is that FreeBSD is not a general computer operating system product. It is a very specific product in fact. Now, the USES that FreeBSD can be put to are VERY general. BUT, do NOT make the mistake of confusing the fact that just because FreeBSD can be put to general use, that somehow it is a general product. It is not. FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people: 1) Very knowledgeable people who are using it for personal, or in-house corporate projects. 2) Very knowledgeable people who are using it to construct turnkey systems for customers who couldn't care less what is under the hood. By contrast, Windows and Linux are in fact, general computer operating system products. They are targeted at groups #1 and #2, but they are also targeted at group #3 which are: 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long as it works. My 11 year old sister uses KDE and OpenOffice fine on FreeBSD. I think the problem arrives when setting these things up. Once these are setup, it's almost the same as Windows in my personal opinion. I once seen an Internet Cafe using FreeBSD on about 40+ machines with KDE. Am sure these users hardly noticed the difference. We should be promoting that what can be done on Linux(in terms of desktop usage) can be done on FreeBSD. This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD: You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works and how computer software that runs on it works in order to get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it works. I disagree. By 'intimately' do you mean the internals? Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the interface to their operating systems. Thus, an ignoramus can get up and running with both of these systems, and that person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough to get the job done. It may be a half-assed fix, but it is better than nothing. FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this. For starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux or Windows, so why mess with it? But, most importantly, a dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person, and over time becomes a tremendous liability. With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the Catch-22 is old-fashioned mental elbow grease. In short, by learning a bit at a time, expanding on that, and repeating the process. It is a long slow way to get to know anything, but once you get there, you really do know everything in intimate detail. This isn't a popular thing to tell newbies. Ted -- - Liam J. Foy [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
On Mon(20)/Jun/05 - , Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: Hello. I am curious why it's so difficult to get a simple and straight forward list of FreeBSD's features, that normal people can understand? I am trying to write one of the largest articles ever to be published on www.PCWorld.no -- to only say good things about FreeBSD. But I want it clear what good things to say. Will this large article reach a large audience? =) http://www.freebsd.org/features.html is alright, but not the best. Using super-advanced jargons, it says what they are, but not what they do. At least not in a way normal people can understand. http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/ aims more towards the general public, and does the job a little better. How ever they don't even mention half of FreeBSD's features. http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html is very, very good. I get the feeling though, that it ain't like that no more. Any idea, people? Thanks! -- Fafa Hafiz Krantz Research Designer @ http://www.bleed.no -- ___ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- - Liam J. Foy [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Hi, Vulpes Velox wrote: Ignorant useless users should be supported by commercial ventures, not community ones. They will just drag the community down with their weight if they don't help out. This would be the real tough one. There should also be a way to write some kind of descripton for the people between. I found the handbook to be useful in this area. Yes, if you understand it. It is written be serious IT professionals for serious IT professionals. Even a serious none IT professional has problems understanding it. Our problem is that we all do not know the people who would speak the language none IT professionals understand. The original writer sounds like being skilled enough to have serious try on this one if he gets the information he needs for this. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Hi, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: I am curious why it's so difficult to get a simple and straight forward list of FreeBSD's features, that normal people can understand? There is no real answer to this question. I am trying to write one of the largest articles ever to be published on www.PCWorld.no -- to only say good things about FreeBSD. But I want it clear what good things to say. This sounds good. How much time is left for you to write it? http://www.freebsd.org/features.html is alright, but not the best. Using super-advanced jargons, it says what they are, but not what they do. At least not in a way normal people can understand. FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people. Or, as I describe it for myself, if I would know marketing, I would not write software. http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/ aims more towards the general public, and does the job a little better. How ever they don't even mention half of FreeBSD's features. Not all applies to FreeBSD. http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html is very, very good. I get the feeling though, that it ain't like that no more. It is a starting point but a bit outdated. Any idea, people? Not really as I also do not know the current status of your article. I also have no idea what the target audience will be. Let me give you some not to technical points for a start. FreeBSD strongest and also its weakest point is that it is developed by serious people as a serious operating system who took the work of a serious university as their base. This leads easily to misunderstandings when newcommers appearing at the scene. The main advantage of FreeBSD is its stability. It just runs like a work horse. FreeBSD follows very strict principles once set. The number of exceptions to be faced during operating a FreeBSD machine are pretty much limited. All applications come via the ports tree and are delivered as source or as a binary. The user can decide on what level he/she can maintain the machine. The installation from source need compilations but it does not need any knowledge of programming. Following the same steps for all ports, is all the user has to do: cd to the directory in the ports tree make make install make clean I know some people who were to afraid to move to FreeBSD as they believed installing from source is equal to being a programmer. I hope this will start a discussion to give you the strong points of FreeBSD you need for the article. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: snip I know some people who were to afraid to move to FreeBSD as they believed installing from source is equal to being a programmer. Yeah I know a lot of people like that :) For those people, the pcbsd project www.pcbsd.org might be an option. I didn't try it myself (yet), but from their website it looks like a promising approach. Karel. ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
On Monday 20 June 2005 07:37 pm, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: *snip* FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people. Clearly its weakest point. Once again, that depends on your audience. If you ask me, its one of FreeBSD's strongest points. Im one of those technical people, and the main reason I like BSD is that its not dumbed down. It does require atleast a minimal amount of clue, and it does not take for granted that the user is an idiot. -- R I am not one of the those technical people. From a non-tech's viewpoint, it is a demanding operating system; but I am a more competent and more responsible computer user for the trouble. Maybe that's a good point to explore: convenience rarely breeds responsibility. (What's the line from spiderman?...with great power comes great responsibility?) Put another way: The best things in life are earned. Fafa, Roger is right about analyzing/choosing your audience. If your audience would be truly interested in FreeBSD, don't underestimate them (but make sure to provide a list of references for further reading). If they need the discussion dumbed down, your probably wasting both your time and theirs. I could be completely wrong; but that's my 2 cents. Andrew Gould ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
Hi, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: This sounds good. How much time is left for you to write it? A couple of weeks :) So I have a lot of time to do research. You could subscribe to more technical lists to see how help is done and what kind of problems people face with a none-technical background. FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people. Clearly its weakest point. It is also its strongest point. FreeBSD has a very clear development paradigma. It is far off the chaotic system Linux has. Actually, it's not only for the article. I also want to create an introductory report where FreeBSD meets the real life, and try to present it in the same professional manner that Apple presents their Mac OS X. This would be very helpful for FreeBSD. Maybe some can even be used as wording for FreeBSD's new website, which they desperately need. Here we are again. But do not forget one thing. This technical way of doing things have to stay as it also presents FreeBSD's strongest point. I know some people who were to afraid to move to FreeBSD as they believed installing from source is equal to being a programmer. Yeah I know a lot of people like that :) They would need two things: a very simple discription of doing things, without any ifs. a very clear message that it does not have to be Microsoft software. Erich ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
