Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
Dear lists, I'm sorry for 2L8 reply though,I have transrated this thread into japanese in [1]. I wonder if every mail transrated correctly so please check it if you understand japanese especially by japanese lists. BTW ML mails should be obeyed by FreeBSD Copyright but it's derivative work would be going to? Regards [1] http://www.openedu.org/dkp/archive/mail/current/20140331-0517/maillist.html --- Kazuhiko Kiriyama k...@openedu.org At Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:46:45 -0700, Eitan Adler wrote: > > Hi all, > > Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" > and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can > be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a > desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD > can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default > and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. > > The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: > > Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows > can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it > two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that > we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS > can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run > for 16? > > Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically > change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do > that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be > staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get > sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. > > FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't > released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on > FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with > the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"? > > In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera > only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason > for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape > Linux anyways. > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for > server or embedded use. > > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > Linux world? > > Eitan Adler > ___ > freebsd-curr...@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
Hi, I'm working on adding some more power management logging support to freebsd-head so we can start to get a better grip on sleep/wakeup occurances. That should help us start to figure out where the power consumption is going. But on that EEEPC 900, just make sure you've set dev.cpu.0.cx_lowest to something lower than C1. -a On 3 May 2014 08:57, Matthias Apitz wrote: > El día Tuesday, April 01, 2014 a las 08:38:28AM +0100, David Chisnall > escribió: > >> >> Just a small note here: Improving power management is something that the >> Core Team and the Foundation have jointly identified as an important goal, >> in particular for mobile / embedded scenarios. We're currently coordinating >> potential sponsors for the work and soliciting proposals from people >> interested in doing the work. If you know of anyone in either category then >> please drop either me, core, or the Foundation an email. >> > > Hello, > > Using every day one of my FreeBSD netbooks (see below), I know very well > that improving power management and by this the uptime while running on > battery is a serious issue. I'm currently surprised about the big > diff between two of my netbooks, one running 1 hour only while the other > runs ~4 hours. I'm thinking about building a cable connection between > the battery and the netbooks to measure the exact power drain (normally > one can not see this because the battery is connected into its bay and > you can not put any meter in there). > > I'm an experienced C-programmer and long time FreeBSD user and tester > and I'm willing to dig deeper into this work. Please let me know if > there is something to work on. > > Attached below is a description of the two mentioned netbooks and their > uptime values. > > Thanks > > matthias > > > > comparing battery life time of [EeePC 900] and [Acer Aspire One D250] > > > | EeePC 900 | Acer Aspire One D250 > --+-+ > CPU | 900 MHz Intel Celeron M 353 | 2x Intel Atom CPU N270 @ 1.60GHz > RAM | 2 GByte | 1 GByte > disk | 2x SSD (4 GB, 16 GB)| WDC WD2500BEVT-22ZCT0 11.01A11 > | | ATA-8 SATA 2.x, 238475MB > display | TFT 1024x600 9" | TFT 1024x600 10" > FreeBSD | 10-CURRENT r255948 | 10-CURRENT r250588 > KDE | 4.10.5 | 3.5.10 > WAN (UMTS)| USB u3g Huawei E1750| USB u3g Huawei E1750 > --+-+ > battery | Li-ion A22-701 7.4V 7200mAh | Li-ion UM08B74 11.1V 5200mAh / 54Wh > | 53.380Wh| 57.720Wh > --+-+ > uptime| ~1 hours| ~4 hours > --+-+ > > > -- > Matthias Apitz | /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign: > E-mail: g...@unixarea.de | \ / - No HTML/RTF in E-mail > WWW: http://www.unixarea.de/ | X- No proprietary attachments > phone: +49-170-4527211 | / \ - Respect for open standards > | en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII_Ribbon_Campaign > ___ > freebsd-curr...@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
El día Tuesday, April 01, 2014 a las 08:38:28AM +0100, David Chisnall escribió: > > Just a small note here: Improving power management is something that the Core > Team and the Foundation have jointly identified as an important goal, in > particular for mobile / embedded scenarios. We're currently coordinating > potential sponsors for the work and soliciting proposals from people > interested in doing the work. If you know of anyone in either category then > please drop either me, core, or the Foundation an email. > Hello, Using every day one of my FreeBSD netbooks (see below), I know very well that improving power management and by this the uptime while running on battery is a serious issue. I'm currently surprised about the big diff between two of my netbooks, one running 1 hour only while the other runs ~4 hours. I'm thinking about building a cable connection between the battery and the netbooks to measure the exact power drain (normally one can not see this because the battery is connected into its bay and you can not put any meter in there). I'm an experienced C-programmer and long time FreeBSD user and tester and I'm willing to dig deeper into this work. Please let me know if there is something to work on. Attached below is a description of the two mentioned netbooks and their uptime values. Thanks matthias comparing battery life time of [EeePC 900] and [Acer Aspire One D250] | EeePC 900 | Acer Aspire One D250 --+-+ CPU | 900 MHz Intel Celeron M 353 | 2x Intel Atom CPU N270 @ 1.60GHz RAM | 2 GByte | 1 GByte disk | 2x SSD (4 GB, 16 GB)| WDC WD2500BEVT-22ZCT0 11.01A11 | | ATA-8 SATA 2.x, 238475MB display | TFT 1024x600 9" | TFT 1024x600 10" FreeBSD | 10-CURRENT r255948 | 10-CURRENT r250588 KDE | 4.10.5 | 3.5.10 WAN (UMTS)| USB u3g Huawei E1750| USB u3g Huawei E1750 --+-+ battery | Li-ion A22-701 7.4V 7200mAh | Li-ion UM08B74 11.1V 5200mAh / 54Wh | 53.380Wh| 57.720Wh --+-+ uptime| ~1 hours| ~4 hours --+-+ -- Matthias Apitz | /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign: E-mail: g...@unixarea.de | \ / - No HTML/RTF in E-mail WWW: http://www.unixarea.de/ | X- No proprietary attachments phone: +49-170-4527211 | / \ - Respect for open standards | en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII_Ribbon_Campaign ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Chris Benesch wrote: > Hi guys, I've been watching this heated discussion for a few days and here > is my $.02 > > I'm not your average computer user either. I learned BASIC on a Commodore > 64 back in 84 and decided my collection of toys was nowhere hear as fun as > making ascii art dance across the screen, or flying a carat symbol through > a > canyon made of asterisks. Then I learned sprites and within a month had > the > byte codes to make a circle down in my head. Amazing what young brain can > do before you hit high school and ruin it with partying :-) > > I work in the software development field now professionally, mostly on > large > AIX systems. My wet dream has always been to go to a full Linux / BSD > desktop for work and entertainment. I don't do a lot of gaming, so that's > not a huge issue, but there always ends up being something. Some little > thing that works fine on Windows and doesn't on *nix. I can usually find a > workaround, but again, out of the box if it weren't for my stubbornness I > would switch back pretty quickly. > > I remember everyones complaint with *nix systems 10 years ago was hardware > support. "Oh theres plenty of software to do everything, but my XXX > graphics card doesn't work" Now, it's the opposite. I spend half a day > installing windows on a system and finding all the drivers, whereas *nix > picks it all up right out of the box. > > We also had an old laptop and finally caved to give our 12 year old son his > own computer. The first thing I thought was "Ok I'll just throw XP on it > with Firefox and AVG" Since all he really does is look up pictures to > print > out and color and play flash games. I come back a month later to do some > updates and make sure its all up to date and its running like a slug. No > viruses, nothing like that, just Winrot. So I threw Lubuntu on it and its > been humming along fine and snappy for 6 months now. It also allowed me to > get in via SSH and set up a cron job to shut itself down when hes not > supposed to be on it :) He adapted to the new environment easily and > happily uses LXDE on an Ubuntu clone and goes to school and uses Windows. > It surprises even me how adaptable he is given he has mild autism. I guess > what I'm saying is coming from a blank slate, *nix works great. > > The problem, and the largest market share is the people in the middle. > Those who are used to Windows, aren't real hackers and don't want to learn > new stuff, they just want to go in and have everything look and act like > they are used to. And they don't want to lose the ability to play their > copy of Duke Nukem 3-D they bought long ago either :-) > > As I see it, the solution is kind of simple. We are already there minus > the > software that people may want to use that is legacy. Macintosh early on > had > the ability to run .exe files, and through years of hard work, they are a > competitor to Windows. *nix .. sort of does. We need to work the hell out > of Wine and make it built into any desktop distribution. I know easier > said > than done, but the end result would be worth it. > > The day that Bob the car mechanic can go to Wal Mart and spend $500 on a > Windows 8 laptop that runs like a slug, or $300 on a laptop with some *nix > distro that runs twice as fast and both allow him to just pop in the CD > from > an auto manufacturer and run their software will be the turning point. > > The way to really make it drive its point home is gaming. I don't know > much > about the internals of it, but *nix needs some good games or at least a > fast > compatibility layer to play the big ones out there now. > > Bottom line, make it fun and make it compatible. The lower price will > attract plenty of customers. As long as they allow us die hards to install > a text only system we're good :-) > > -Original Message- > From: owner-freebsd-advoc...@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advoc...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Perry > Sent: Friday, April 4, 2014 10:18 AM > To: 'Allen' > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; hack...@freebsd.org; curr...@freebsd.org > Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market > > > > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. > > > > There never has been and there never will be. > > > > Oh come on now, it depends on a couple of things, and I wouldn't go > > that > far. > > I've got a lot of family members that know next to nothing about > computers, > > and I got tired of fixing them all the time. > > > > Just as a
RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
Hi guys, I've been watching this heated discussion for a few days and here is my $.02 I'm not your average computer user either. I learned BASIC on a Commodore 64 back in 84 and decided my collection of toys was nowhere hear as fun as making ascii art dance across the screen, or flying a carat symbol through a canyon made of asterisks. Then I learned sprites and within a month had the byte codes to make a circle down in my head. Amazing what young brain can do before you hit high school and ruin it with partying :-) I work in the software development field now professionally, mostly on large AIX systems. My wet dream has always been to go to a full Linux / BSD desktop for work and entertainment. I don't do a lot of gaming, so that's not a huge issue, but there always ends up being something. Some little thing that works fine on Windows and doesn't on *nix. I can usually find a workaround, but again, out of the box if it weren't for my stubbornness I would switch back pretty quickly. I remember everyones complaint with *nix systems 10 years ago was hardware support. "Oh theres plenty of software to do everything, but my XXX graphics card doesn't work" Now, it's the opposite. I spend half a day installing windows on a system and finding all the drivers, whereas *nix picks it all up right out of the box. We also had an old laptop and finally caved to give our 12 year old son his own computer. The first thing I thought was "Ok I'll just throw XP on it with Firefox and AVG" Since all he really does is look up pictures to print out and color and play flash games. I come back a month later to do some updates and make sure its all up to date and its running like a slug. No viruses, nothing like that, just Winrot. So I threw Lubuntu on it and its been humming along fine and snappy for 6 months now. It also allowed me to get in via SSH and set up a cron job to shut itself down when hes not supposed to be on it :) He adapted to the new environment easily and happily uses LXDE on an Ubuntu clone and goes to school and uses Windows. It surprises even me how adaptable he is given he has mild autism. I guess what I'm saying is coming from a blank slate, *nix works great. The problem, and the largest market share is the people in the middle. Those who are used to Windows, aren't real hackers and don't want to learn new stuff, they just want to go in and have everything look and act like they are used to. And they don't want to lose the ability to play their copy of Duke Nukem 3-D they bought long ago either :-) As I see it, the solution is kind of simple. We are already there minus the software that people may want to use that is legacy. Macintosh early on had the ability to run .exe files, and through years of hard work, they are a competitor to Windows. *nix .. sort of does. We need to work the hell out of Wine and make it built into any desktop distribution. I know easier said than done, but the end result would be worth it. The day that Bob the car mechanic can go to Wal Mart and spend $500 on a Windows 8 laptop that runs like a slug, or $300 on a laptop with some *nix distro that runs twice as fast and both allow him to just pop in the CD from an auto manufacturer and run their software will be the turning point. The way to really make it drive its point home is gaming. I don't know much about the internals of it, but *nix needs some good games or at least a fast compatibility layer to play the big ones out there now. Bottom line, make it fun and make it compatible. The lower price will attract plenty of customers. As long as they allow us die hards to install a text only system we're good :-) -Original Message- From: owner-freebsd-advoc...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-advoc...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Perry Sent: Friday, April 4, 2014 10:18 AM To: 'Allen' Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; hack...@freebsd.org; curr...@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market > > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. > > > There never has been and there never will be. > > Oh come on now, it depends on a couple of things, and I wouldn't go > that far. > I've got a lot of family members that know next to nothing about computers, > and I got tired of fixing them all the time. > > Just as an example, my cousin basically destroyed his parents computer > and got a job, and bought himself a brand new computer, and had me set it up. > This was a while back and his Windows XP Home computer took all of one > week too have issues. I updated Windows and saw he had never tried. > > I installed Spybot and AVG and updated them and ran them. When I got > back home, I checked them and they had found over 12,000 infections! > Everything from trojans and back doors, to those f
RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
> > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There > > > never has been and there never will be. > > Oh come on now, it depends on a couple of things, and I wouldn't go that far. > I've got a lot of family members that know next to nothing about computers, > and I got tired of fixing them all the time. > > Just as an example, my cousin basically destroyed his parents computer and > got a job, and bought himself a brand new computer, and had me set it up. > This was a while back and his Windows XP Home computer took all of one > week too have issues. I updated Windows and saw he had never tried. > > I installed Spybot and AVG and updated them and ran them. When I got back > home, I checked them and they had found over 12,000 infections! Everything > from trojans and back doors, to those fake security centers. > > He is an idiot when it comes to this stuff and I don't mind saying so. The weird > thing was that all he did on this computer, was go online with a web browser, > IM with friend's, and listen to music and download all types of things. He did > do some homework in between porn marathons too. > > My point for all this is that I eventually did something that worked; I installed > Linux on his computer, made a script to keep it updated, and basically, I had > KDE installed, Gnome, and a few others, and by setting up KDE and putting > Web browser short cuts on the desktop, a shortcut to some IM clients, an > XMMS shortcut, and a few others so that he could do what he was doing. I > set up some Office suites as well, and this worked. His machine stayed up to > date without any issues, and he no longer had any problems. The common denominator for these types of issues is that the average consumer isn't properly educated on how to maintain a computer or on responsible internet browsing. You can only get so far with Geek Squad before they've exhausted their knowledge and competency of computers in general. > > You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the > > nerds are going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my desktop! > > It's totally viable!" > > Like I said, I wouldn't go that far; Those of us on this list probably aren't fans > of Windows, and probably only use it when required, but in the example I > gave above, I found that people who know literally nothing about computers > in general, do really well with Linux and BSD as long as I took the time to set > up the desktop for them and installed all the stuff they needed and placed > the shortcuts on the desktop. It worked really well. Even my Mom who > knows nothing about computers, can sit down and use Linux or BSD without > any trouble, as long as the desktop is set up properly. I am a fan of Windows for the most part, probably because I enjoy gaming and don't like looking for workarounds to what I've been accustomed to for a couple of decades now on either Windows or Mac OS (I'm 25...interpret that as you will). The problem that I've always seen with Linux or BSD in general is the fact that you have to take the time to set it up or have someone do it for you if you have no idea how to read documentation or don't feel comfortable installing the system yourself. OS X will do the job for the average consumer wanting a UNIX-like experience with a functional desktop out of the box even if it costs them their kidney. I myself have little difficulty with Linux or BSD, but I originally started out my university life in computer science and am therefore not really your average consumer. > > Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're > > masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual use > > case doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a > > market. It's a basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a > > small company. Many companies combined create a market. > > > Back to sleep. > > Now see, that has a point, but I do personally think that Unix not only does > fine on the desktop, but depending on which version, some versions are > more suited to being used as a desktop than others; PC-BSD for example, > along with SUSE and even Mandriva, all work well for this. That's the very problem with Linux and BSD: which version should I use? Should I go with openSUSE? Or maybe should I go with Ubuntu? Yeah, Ubuntu looks like the easier way to find software I want. But then what version of Ubuntu should I use? Unity, KDE, or something else? What is this OpenBox I see everyone raving about? I just want iTunes so I can plug in my iPhone and listen to my music; what do you mean iTunes won't work? The reason there isn't a huge market for consumer Linux or BSD is because consumers don't care about the alternatives that they have to set up themselves after figuring out what disc image to download and how to burn in to DVD or CD. What Apple and Microsoft have been very good about doing for the past 20+ years is providing consumers with two
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
Hi, before I go any farther, I just want to point out that I currently can only really send emails from my phone because Comcast are jerks. So I'm Hoping that basically this email will be displayed properly. I'm using AquaMail, which seems to work pretty well but I haven't been active on these lists all that often because of that. > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There never > has been and there never will be. Oh come on now, it depends on a couple of things, and I wouldn't go that far. I've got a lot of family members that know next to nothing about computers, and I got tired of fixing them all the time. Just as an example, my cousin basically destroyed his parents computer and got a job, and bought himself a brand new computer, and had me set it up. This was a while back and his Windows XP Home computer took all of one week too have issues. I updated Windows and saw he had never tried. I installed Spybot and AVG and updated them and ran them. When I got back home, I checked them and they had found over 12,000 infections! Everything from trojans and back doors, to those fake security centers. He is an idiot when it comes to this stuff and I don't mind saying so. The weird thing was that all he did on this computer, was go online with a web browser, IM with friend's, and listen to music and download all types of things. He did do some homework in between porn marathons too. My point for all this is that I eventually did something that worked; I installed Linux on his computer, made a script to keep it updated, and basically, I had KDE installed, Gnome, and a few others, and by setting up KDE and putting Web browser short cuts on the desktop, a shortcut to some IM clients, an XMMS shortcut, and a few others so that he could do what he was doing. I set up some Office suites as well, and this worked. His machine stayed up to date without any issues, and he no longer had any problems. You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the nerds are going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my desktop! It's totally viable!" Like I said, I wouldn't go that far; Those of us on this list probably aren't fans of Windows, and probably only use it when required, but in the example I gave above, I found that people who know literally nothing about computers in general, do really well with Linux and BSD as long as I took the time to set up the desktop for them and installed all the stuff they needed and placed the shortcuts on the desktop. It worked really well. Even my Mom who knows nothing about computers, can sit down and use Linux or BSD without any trouble, as long as the desktop is set up properly. Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual use case doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a market. It's a basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a small company. Many companies combined create a market. Back to sleep. Now see, that has a point, but I do personally think that Unix not only does fine on the desktop, but depending on which version, some versions are more suited to being used as a desktop than others; PC-BSD for example, along with SUSE and even Mandriva, all work well for this. -Allen Sent with AquaMail for Android http://www.aqua-mail.com ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 08:38:28AM +0100, David Chisnall wrote: > On 1 Apr 2014, at 08:11, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > 1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete > > top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just trying > > to idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You need to > > optimize all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power efficiency > > (which actually involves a fair amount of micro architecture knowledge), > > you need a kernel scheduler that is power management aware, you need a > > process management system that runs as few things as possible and knows > > how to schedule things during package wake-up intervals, you need timers > > to be coalesced at the level where applications consume them, the list > > just goes on and on. It's a lot of engineering work, and to drive that > > work you also need a lot of telemetry data and people with big sticks > > running around hitting people who write power-inefficient code. FreeBSD > > has neither. Thanks Jordan, this is an excellent elaboration on why exactly we're behind on the "green" lane, and on power-neglective FreeBSD development overall. > Just a small note here: Improving power management is something that the > Core Team and the Foundation have jointly identified as an important goal, > in particular for mobile/embedded scenarios. We're currently coordinating > potential sponsors for the work and soliciting proposals from people > interested in doing the work. If you know of anyone in either category > then please drop either me, core, or the Foundation an email. > > Some things have already seen progress, for example Davide's calloutng work > includes timer coalescing, but there are still a lot of, uh, opportunities > for improvement. The Symbian EKA2 book has some very interesting detail on > their power management infrastructure, which would be worth looking at for > anyone interested in working on this, and I believe your former employer > had some expertise in this area. Now that's something I'm glad to hear. It would be cool if FreeBSD gained some power-efficient software that run smoothly together with hardware (and laptops in particular) developed by Jordan's former employer. ;-) > For example, currently hald wakes up every 30 seconds and polls the optical > drive if you have one. Why? Because there's no devd event when a CD is > inserted, so the only way for it to get these notifications is polling. I'm surprised to find out that our devd(8) does not emit some event on CD insertion. On the other, if by "hald" you mean the one installed by the `sysutils/hal' port, I've personally never run it, and do not recommend it to anyone. ./danfe ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 03:10:22PM -0700, Kevin Oberman wrote: > FreeBSD desktop since 3.3 (makes me a newbie!) I really dislike pulseaudio > and have managed to live without it. Firefox works fine without it. > Unfortunately they dropped OSS support a while go, so I now must use alsa, > but it works well and without the pain of dealing with pulseaudio, a > solution in search of a problem it I ever saw one. PA should just die, of course, just like that kid's other "products". OSS is so nice; it supports all those nifty features like per-application mixing and stuff, we have a very strong implementation of it (kudos to ariff@, let me remind us all: http://people.freebsd.org/~ariff/SOUND_4.TXT.html). Giving Firerox back its OSS support is my on TODO list, unfortunately I do not have any idea when (or if) I can look at it, but that would be a nice step in dealsificaion of our Ports Collection. OSS was, and should remain, the standard Unixish sound system API. > Audio output is pretty system dependent, but I had little problem getting > my audio to auto-switch to headphones when I plugged them in. The setup is > a bit ugly,but I only had to check the available PINs (ugly, ugly) and set > up stuff once. It just works. Not always, unfortunately. I also had a working pin override configuration in /boot/loader.conf, but after r236750 (major snd_hda driver rewrite) it stopped working. I've reported it and tried to get some support from mav@ but he never replied. Since then, I have to carry pre-r236750 version of snd_hda(4) to have working sound. > Power is an issue and I find the current defaults suck. Read mav's article > on the subject on the wiki. >From reading that article, I've only added hw.pci.do_power_nodriver="3" and hw.pci.do_power_resume="0" to /boot/loader.conf. More aggressive settings, like cx_lowest="C2", made my laptop very sluggish and unpleasant to operate; powerd(8) behaves sanely with no tuning, so I wouldn't say that our current defaults suck. The reason why we're behind on the "green" lane is because we generally do not pay much attention when it comes to power-saving during development of FreeBSD. (I'd like to be proven wrong.) ./danfe ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:24 AM, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:11 PM, Matt Olander wrote: > >> This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant >> car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look >> at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of >> nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing >> pretty well. > > I think you're kind of making my point for me, Matt. :-) > > Tesla benefitted entirely from deep pockets on the part of its investors. > Over $160M went into starting the company, of which $70M came from the > personal checking account of Elon Musk, the current visionary and CEO, and to > quote the wikipedia page: "Tesla Motors is a public company that trades on > the NASDAQ stock exchange under the symbol TSLA.[5] In the first quarter of > 2013, Tesla posted profits for the first time in its ten year history." > > Yep, in other words, Tesla has been losing money for over 10 years and only > just started turning a profit, after raising a "mere" $187M in investment and > $485M in loans from the US DOE. Your tax dollars at work! On top of all > that Tesla has only managed to make money at all by focusing exclusively the > highest end of the luxury car market, where profit margins are also the > highest (the first car, the roadster, would set you back $110,000). > > Getting back to computer operating systems, it would make most readers of > these lists choke on their Doritos to know how much Apple had to invest in > Mac OS X before it became a viable desktop operating system and of course > you've already seen folks screaming about how Apple gear is too expensive and > they'll never buy it. > > You just don't get a consumer-grade desktop Unix OS, or a practical > all-electric sedan, without serious monetary investment and a luxury marquee > to match, assuming you'd like to actually make any of that money *back*. > > So, back to BSD on the desktop. Anyone got a spare $200M they'd like to > just throw away? That's what it's going to take! :) > > Don't believe me? Go ask someone who knows first-hand then. Ask Mark > Shuttleworth: > http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/08/why-ubuntus-creator-still-invests-his-fortune-in-an-unprofitable-company/ > Yeah, no doubt it will cost a bit of money to compete on that level. However, have you ever heard the phrase pioneers suffer where settlers prosper? Meaning it may (or may not!) take significantly less to compete once a lot of the harder problems are solved. If we take the fact that PCs are on the decline but device adoption is on the rise, perhaps we could focus on an Android competitor (*cough* Cyb0rg *cough). Wouldn't it be possible to run Android apps on *BSD via a java vm? I will get you an Ubuntu phone for Christmas and we can try it :P -matt P.S., I do not have 200 million but I'm good for 10k :P ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Tue, 1 Apr 2014 15:10:22 -0700 Kevin Oberman wrote: > > > No, mutt, with vim as mail composer. :) > > > > +1 > > > > matthias > > > > (FreeBSD since 2.2.5 and sending this from an EeePC 900, > > netbook, UMTS connected, KDE4 desktop, sound, webcam, vim, mutt, > > sendmail, ...) > > > > FreeBSD desktop since 3.3 (makes me a newbie!) FreeBSD server and desktop since 2.0 (replaced Ultrix 4.3 system). Does it makes me an "oldie"? I'm stuck since with FreeBSD on private systems and a couple of years ago, I had no problems even run servers based on FreeBSD for my department. I dislike this unspecific terminus "desktop", since people seem to associate entertainment systems with neat graphics, mouse and other interesting "human" stuff (even audio). On the other hand, "server" seems hardcoded to unfancy 19inch rack-based plastic-metal-based clumsy and noisy high-performance systems stored in a dark air-conditioned cellar. But what is with the old-fashioned terminus "workstation"? In a more scientific environment, systems with the performance needs of a "server" but with the exterior habitus of a "desktop" were very often called "workstation". Nowadays, we run a single remaining FreeBSD server and I kept my "desktop" system also working on FreeBSD (11.0, recent hardware, by the way). We had to change the other "desktops" (I prefer workstation) towards Linux due to the need of OpenCL in combination with some expensive TESLA boards for numerical modelling and datellite image processing. The software we used was mostly "home-brewn" so we didn't rely on commercial Linux-only stuff and it would have been an easy task to run the software also on FreeBSD based workstations - if the GPU could be used. Even the SoC platforms come with OpenCL support (also for the GPU) these days and i do not see anything useful on FreeBSD (except POCL for CPU usage, but no GPU). My contribution to 1st of April ... Oliver signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:11 PM, Matt Olander wrote: > This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant > car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look > at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of > nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing > pretty well. I think you’re kind of making my point for me, Matt. :-) Tesla benefitted entirely from deep pockets on the part of its investors. Over $160M went into starting the company, of which $70M came from the personal checking account of Elon Musk, the current visionary and CEO, and to quote the wikipedia page: "Tesla Motors is a public company that trades on the NASDAQ stock exchange under the symbol TSLA.[5] In the first quarter of 2013, Tesla posted profits for the first time in its ten year history.” Yep, in other words, Tesla has been losing money for over 10 years and only just started turning a profit, after raising a “mere" $187M in investment and $485M in loans from the US DOE. Your tax dollars at work! On top of all that Tesla has only managed to make money at all by focusing exclusively the highest end of the luxury car market, where profit margins are also the highest (the first car, the roadster, would set you back $110,000). Getting back to computer operating systems, it would make most readers of these lists choke on their Doritos to know how much Apple had to invest in Mac OS X before it became a viable desktop operating system and of course you’ve already seen folks screaming about how Apple gear is too expensive and they’ll never buy it. You just don’t get a consumer-grade desktop Unix OS, or a practical all-electric sedan, without serious monetary investment and a luxury marquee to match, assuming you’d like to actually make any of that money *back*. So, back to BSD on the desktop. Anyone got a spare $200M they’d like to just throw away? That’s what it’s going to take! :) Don’t believe me? Go ask someone who knows first-hand then. Ask Mark Shuttleworth: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/08/why-ubuntus-creator-still-invests-his-fortune-in-an-unprofitable-company/ :-) - Jordan ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Apr 1, 2014, at 9:12 PM, Jim Thompson wrote: > I have Macs at work (typing on one now), and a mac at home. I like them. > [ … ] > It’s just like being back in the 80s, when Unix had a desktop market, only > much, much faster. Worry not, there’s a product just for you now! http://www.macstories.net/mac/cathode-is-a-vintage-terminal-for-os-x/ Of course I have a copy. I couldn’t resist buying it. - Jordan ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Apr 1, 2014, at 9:33 PM, Person, Roderick wrote: > Why aren't all the nerds and small businesses out there a market? Too few of you to justify the capital outlay. Now, if we were talking about a $1500 watch that was very nerdy and appealed to the inner James Bond in lots of non-nerds, the margins might just justify it. If Apple hardware is too expensive for you, there is always Windows and a cheap PC clone. Between those two poles, the entirety of the desktop market is pretty much spoken for. I get that there are some (mostly on these mailing lists) who don’t want either, but religious / personal preferences to the contrary don’t create markets until there are at least a few million of you. ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 10:22:32AM +0100, David Chisnall wrote: > On 1 Apr 2014, at 23:10, Kevin Oberman wrote: > > > Audio output is pretty system dependent, but I had little problem getting > > my audio to auto-switch to headphones when I plugged them in. The setup is > > a bit ugly,but I only had to check the available PINs (ugly, ugly) and set > > up stuff once. It just works. If you want my example set-up, I can post it > > somewhere or you can look in the archives for it as I have posted it in the > > past. > > It would be good to have this in the handbook (and to see what we can > do to improve it). FreeBSD audio typically works out of the box and > it's great when it does[1], but it can be underdocumented black magic > to make it work when it doesn't. For example, I believe it's possible > to tell pcm that when it receives a stereo stream it should redirect > the left channel to the front and rear left, and the right channel to > the front and rear right, but I haven't yet worked out how to do this > - I'd have thought it was the kind of default that we'd want to have. > > The use case that PulseAudio was [over]designed to fix was plugging in > USB headphones (or connecting a Bluetooth headset) and having existing > audio streams redirected there. This should be possible with the > existing sound stack, but there are some bits of plumbing missing. We > already do in-kernel mixing and resampling, which are the hard bits. > Duplicating streams and redirecting them are trivial by comparison. > > David > > [1] Although I had a slightly embarrassing moment when I spent an hour > hunting for docs to tell me how to configure my media centre box do > 5.1 output and then decided to just try it and found it worked out of > the box. AFAIK we already can configure HDA's sound output and input in many ways using sysctl(8). What's still missing is a user-friendly way to configure sound. There are some things that can be handled in one little program / script / TUI / GUI / CLI: - Default sound unit (hw.snd.default_unit) - Use the last inserted sound device as default? (hw.snd.default_auto) - PIN Routing (dev.hdaa.%d.config) - Mixer settings Putting it all together in something called sndcontrol should not be too hard. It just takes someone(TM) to do it pgpPO0CTf37RI.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On 1 Apr 2014, at 23:10, Kevin Oberman wrote: > Audio output is pretty system dependent, but I had little problem getting > my audio to auto-switch to headphones when I plugged them in. The setup is > a bit ugly,but I only had to check the available PINs (ugly, ugly) and set > up stuff once. It just works. If you want my example set-up, I can post it > somewhere or you can look in the archives for it as I have posted it in the > past. It would be good to have this in the handbook (and to see what we can do to improve it). FreeBSD audio typically works out of the box and it's great when it does[1], but it can be underdocumented black magic to make it work when it doesn't. For example, I believe it's possible to tell pcm that when it receives a stereo stream it should redirect the left channel to the front and rear left, and the right channel to the front and rear right, but I haven't yet worked out how to do this - I'd have thought it was the kind of default that we'd want to have. The use case that PulseAudio was [over]designed to fix was plugging in USB headphones (or connecting a Bluetooth headset) and having existing audio streams redirected there. This should be possible with the existing sound stack, but there are some bits of plumbing missing. We already do in-kernel mixing and resampling, which are the hard bits. Duplicating streams and redirecting them are trivial by comparison. David [1] Although I had a slightly embarrassing moment when I spent an hour hunting for docs to tell me how to configure my media centre box do 5.1 output and then decided to just try it and found it worked out of the box. ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On 04/01/2014 07:46, dte...@freebsd.org wrote: > Eitan, > > While I understand your frustration, VICOR is using FreeBSD as a Desktop since > FreeBSD 2.2. We don't use sound and we are fine relying on vesa. > > While I understand that the things you listed are actual short-comings for > normal > Desktop users, I think it's the wrong decision to say that we should be > backing > out *any* functionality that would make the Desktop any more difficult to > produce. > > As it stands, it would take me weeks just to count the number of workstations > that are running a GUI, rely on one of the existing video drivers (nv, radeon, > mach64, etc.) and use lots of Desktop ports. I have three FreeBSD desktops (one at work, one at home-office, and one for the usual messing around). They're all running 9.2, with Windows for Unix(TM)...uh, I mean KDE v4.12.3 as the GUI. Yes, I actually like KDE. I also have a machine at home running Debian Wheezy, also with KDE, and I have 2-3 mac devices that actually run MacOS (I have a few mac minis that run Free- and OpenBSD). The minis work exceptionally well as FreeBSD workstations. Each of the FreeBSD systems I have is my go-to workstation--it's where I do most of my work. Only if I can't do something (or don't want to run it on FreeBSD--e.g. Flash), do I use the Mac. The Debian box I just use for messing around--nothing serious. My home FreeBSD workstation has perfect sound, excellent graphics (nvidia), and I can even watch a lot of video using Firefox, since video is increasingly becoming HTML5-based. For me it "just works." The whole combination that makes up my environment can be challenging to keep up-to-date, but it's getting a lot easier with pkgng and portmaster. I would hate to see this stuff, which I find very useful, and helps me both at work and home, to be "ripped out" of the OS. I have been using FreeBSD on the desktop since 1997, when I had two workstations on my desk (FreeBSD and RedHat) and I let them duke it out to see who would win. FreeBSD won then, and even though I continue to keep a Linux desktop around for fun, FreeBSD still wins on the basis of usability, stability, security, etc. michael PS. My current KDE wallpaper for my work office machine is the Windows XP green hillside with blue sky background. It's giving people fits here. ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
El día Tuesday, April 01, 2014 a las 07:43:02PM +0200, Lars Engels escribió: > > > > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > > > > > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the > > [snip] > > > > > I'm a happy FreeBSD desktop user since 4.7. There are some edges, but I > > > really like that I can can create a desktop the way _I_ want it and my > > > mail > > > client even allows me to break lines at 80 chars. Eat that, Apple Mail! > > > ;-) > > > > What e-mail client do you use? Evolution? > > No, mutt, with vim as mail composer. :) +1 matthias (FreeBSD since 2.2.5 and sending this from an EeePC 900, netbook, UMTS connected, KDE4 desktop, sound, webcam, vim, mutt, sendmail, ...) -- Sent from my FreeBSD netbook Matthias Apitz, , http://www.unixarea.de/ f: +49-170-4527211 UNIX since V7 on PDP-11, UNIX on mainframe since ESER 1055 (IBM /370) UNIX on x86 since SVR4.2 UnixWare 2.1.2, FreeBSD since 2.2.5 ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Tue, April 1, 2014 11:59 am, Andreas Nilsson wrote: > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Matt Olander wrote: > > >> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard >> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler >>> wrote: >>> >>> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? >>> >>> The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if >>> >> it's just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD >> (or >> Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running >> April >> fool's joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes >> would simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one >> again. :-) >>> >>> I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of >>> the >> fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like >> the fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, >> the Jail Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. >> >>> >>> There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There >>> >> never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose >> "the >> power to serve" as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine >> server OS and it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's >> also becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is >> another excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent >> developments there. >>> >>> A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be "BSD on the desktop" >>> (and >>> >> while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch >> to say that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the >> following reasons: >> >> >> As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's >> 20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game. >> >> >> This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant >> car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look at >> what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of >> nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing >> pretty well. >> >> I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete >> in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc. >> >> In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k >> visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and clearly >> using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me! >> > > Seeing this I could not resist: > http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/which-operating-system > > > >> >> Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P >> >> > Let them prosper! > > > Seriously, though. There are shortcomings, sure. But I tend to prefer the > rock solid feature rich base with a somewhat shaky desktop experience > than the other alternatives. > > Sure I would like to see a FreeBSD pulseaudio compatible sound server. > And > perhaps a template library for pinout configs for snd-cards. And "native" > flash, although I say "flash, no thank you" > > Perhaps companies such as Netflix could release FreeBSD clients ahead of > linux clients ;) > > I can also say that I recently got a friend to migrate from linux on both > his home server as well as his laptop. He is very happy with the change. > > > Cheers > Andreas > > > > >> Cheers, >> -matt >> ___ >> freebsd-curr...@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" >> >> > ___ > freebsd-curr...@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > > re pulseaudio: I've had luck reading the raw PCM data from the /dev/dsp* devices, storing in postgres (bytea), then later playing back to /dev/dsp.. 'streaming' to another system (maybe pgsql as el intermedio?) would be pretty simple. In this scenario there is no Alsa requirement, which works for me :) -- Waitman Gobble San Jose California USA +1.510-830-7975 ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
> -Original Message- >> From: owner-freebsd-advoc...@freebsd.org >> [mailto:owner-freebsd-advoc...@freebsd.org] On >> Behalf Of Randi Harper >> >>You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the nerds are >>going to step >> up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my >desktop! It's totally viable!" >> >>Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're >>masochistic. It's >> okay, we accept you here. But your individual >use case doesn't indicate a >> place in the >> market. Your basement isn't a market. It's a basement. Your small company >> isn't a market. >> It's a >small company. Many companies combined create a market. > > Why aren't all the nerds and small businesses out there a market? I'm no > marketing expert > or anything, but it would seem that there is some kind of market out there > that isn't being > catered to. I may be a masochist, but I refuse to have to pay Apples prices > for their > hardware. They just seem insane to me. If they ever decided to sell OS X > for non-Apple > hardware I might use it. OK. Now that I opened my big fat mouth, and made the mistake of involving myself earlier in this post before finishing my first of coffee. I'm already committed, so here goes... Can we take a look at advocacy for a moment? What defines it exactly? Is there better advocacy than another? What's the best advocacy? Is it contributing more $$ to the foundation? Is it contributing lines of code to the project? Is it putting a textual, or graphical link "the Power to Serve" on your web page? Is it telling everyone you know about how great FreeBSD is? I don't know. But just the other day, as I struggled with the [apparent] direction(s) FreeBSD was taking in the past few months. I began to reflect on the ~25yrs. of working with the code, and then (*)BSD itself. I realized that I spent no less than 75% of my waking hours in front of the tty. Almost all of which, was in some way related to FreeBSD. Much of it, was dedicated to installs. I calculate to this day, I have performed some 36,000 installs. At least 28,000 still running. Then it occurred to me; if that isn't the BEST form of advocacy, I don't know what is. Really. Think about it. So say what you will. Condemn, or patronize the misfits of society, the geeks, or geeky people. But know this; if it weren't for them, FreeBSD wouldn't be but some pie-in-the-sky ideal/dream. In some far away thought, or dream. For the record; I /don't/ live in my basement. I /do/ take showers. I own my home outright (2nd one, for the record). What's more, my current one was a complete renovation, which I performed myself. Masochistic? Maybe, but somebody has to pay the price, so others can reap the luxury. No? --Chris out... > > And just for the record I've been using FreeBSD as an exclusive home desktop > since 1999. > > At work now so however Outlook mangles this is my fault :) > > > > > > Rod Person > Programmer > (412)454-2616 > > Just because it can been done, does not mean it should be done. > ___ > freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
Hi all, I have been a member of the FreeBSD hackers mailing list for about a year.5 now and I must say that I was looking forward to this year's 4/1 email. Last year, I didn't even realize that the discussion of promoting i386 as a tier 1 architecture was a joke until someone blatantly mentioned in... To address the actual content of this thread, personally, I absolutely love the FreeBSD os and the community that supports it. However, even as a third year computer engineering student, I still have not overcome the overhead that comes with becoming familiar with the UNIX environment. Of course, that is mostly attributed to my laziness and my unwillingness to sit through an entire reading of documentation... To share an observation, I am a teaching assistant for a freshman C programming class and I recently set up three FreeBSD servers, one for each section, where students could learn to develop C programs in an actual UNIX environment. Here is the lecture that I wrote up to help them learn the basics: http://vecr.ece.villanova.edu/bk/fc/labs/docs/ece1620-l2unix.pdf. I led the first section yesterday and I have to say that it was an utter disaster. Only about 1/8th of the class showed even an ounce of interest in this stuff (as it was something extra and not required for the course) and I really f'ed up by trying to teach them how to use vi... Long live the BSD community! On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Andreas Nilsson wrote: > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Matt Olander wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard > > wrote: > > > > > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > > > > > >> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > > >> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > > >> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for > > >> server or embedded use. > > >> > > >> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > > >> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > > >> Linux world? > > > > > > The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if > > it's just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or > > Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April > > fool's joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would > > simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again. > :-) > > > > > > I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of the > > fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the > > fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the > Jail > > Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. > > > > > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There > > never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose "the > > power to serve" as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine > > server OS and it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's also > > becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another > > excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent > developments > > there. > > > > > > A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be "BSD on the desktop" > (and > > while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch to > > say that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the following > > reasons: > > > > As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's > > 20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game. > > > > This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant > > car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look > > at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of > > nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing > > pretty well. > > > > I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete > > in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc. > > > > In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k > > visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and > > clearly using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me! > > > > Seeing this I could not resist: > http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/which-operating-system > > > > > > Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P > > > Let them prosper! > > Seriously, though. There are shortcomings, sure. But I tend to prefer the > rock solid feature rich base with a somewhat shaky desktop experience than > the other alternatives. > > Sure I would like to see a FreeBSD pulseaudio compatible sound server. And > perhaps a template library for pinout configs for snd-cards. And "native" > flash, although I say "flash, no thank you" > > Perhaps companies such as Netflix could release FreeBSD clients ahead of > linux clients ;) > >
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Matt Olander wrote: > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard > wrote: > > > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > > > >> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > >> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > >> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for > >> server or embedded use. > >> > >> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > >> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > >> Linux world? > > > > The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if > it's just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or > Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April > fool's joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would > simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again. :-) > > > > I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of the > fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the > fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the Jail > Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. > > > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There > never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose "the > power to serve" as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine > server OS and it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's also > becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another > excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent developments > there. > > > > A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be "BSD on the desktop" (and > while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch to > say that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the following > reasons: > > As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's > 20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game. > > This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant > car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look > at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of > nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing > pretty well. > > I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete > in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc. > > In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k > visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and > clearly using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me! > Seeing this I could not resist: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/which-operating-system > > Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P > Let them prosper! Seriously, though. There are shortcomings, sure. But I tend to prefer the rock solid feature rich base with a somewhat shaky desktop experience than the other alternatives. Sure I would like to see a FreeBSD pulseaudio compatible sound server. And perhaps a template library for pinout configs for snd-cards. And "native" flash, although I say "flash, no thank you" Perhaps companies such as Netflix could release FreeBSD clients ahead of linux clients ;) I can also say that I recently got a friend to migrate from linux on both his home server as well as his laptop. He is very happy with the change. Cheers Andreas > Cheers, > -matt > ___ > freebsd-curr...@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 07:52:13AM -0700, dte...@freebsd.org wrote: > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Lars Engels [mailto:lars.eng...@0x20.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 2:41 AM > > To: Jordan Hubbard > > Cc: Eitan Adler; hack...@freebsd.org; curr...@freebsd.org; freebsd- > > advoc...@freebsd.org > > Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market > > > > On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 12:11:19PM +0500, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > > > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > > > > > > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > > > > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the > [snip] > > > I'm a happy FreeBSD desktop user since 4.7. There are some edges, but I > > really like that I can can create a desktop the way _I_ want it and my mail > > client even allows me to break lines at 80 chars. Eat that, Apple Mail! ;-) > > What e-mail client do you use? Evolution? No, mutt, with vim as mail composer. :) pgpa2HLJBs_1H.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > >> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the >> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux >> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for >> server or embedded use. >> >> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I >> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the >> Linux world? > > The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if it's > just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or Linux, > for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April fool's > joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would simply > cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again. :-) > > I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of the fact > that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the fact that > it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the Jail Warden, > Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There never > has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose "the power to > serve" as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine server OS and > it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's also becoming easier > to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another excellent niche to > pursue and I am happy to see all the recent developments there. > > A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be "BSD on the desktop" (and > while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch to say > that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the following reasons: As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's 20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game. This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing pretty well. I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc. In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and clearly using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me! Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P Cheers, -matt ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
> > On Mon, March 31, 2014 10:46 pm, Eitan Adler wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> >> Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" >> and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can be a >> worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. >> In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD >> can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and >> often doesn't work as well as we would expect. >> >> The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: >> >> >> Battery life sucks: itâ�s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows >> can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two >> hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely itâ�s that we >> focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can >> run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? >> >> Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically >> change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that >> in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at >> an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming >> to other machines working if you tried. >> >> FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't >> released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD. >> Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with >> the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"? >> >> In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera >> only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for >> vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux >> anyways. >> >> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the >> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux >> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server >> or embedded use. >> >> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I >> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux >> world? >> >> Eitan Adler >> ___ >> freebsd-curr...@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > > Hi, > > I don't understand the gripe about sound. OSS works well. If you install > the verson in ports, audio/oss, you get a more elaborate set of tools. ---8<--- > > The thing about sound, the card is a digital-to-analog converter, and > vice-versa. It uses PCM data. (PCM was actually first 'invented' in the > 1800's - no fools joke). Digital audio/Sound has never really gotten > better, it has only gotten cheaper. WOW. That an interesting bit of historical information. Thanks for sharing it! --Chris > > > -- > Waitman Gobble > San Jose California USA > +1.510-830-7975 > > ___ > freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > > ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
-Original Message- > From: owner-freebsd-advoc...@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advoc...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Randi Harper > >You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the nerds are >going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my >desktop! It's totally >viable!" > >Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're >masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual >use case >doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a market. It's a >basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a >small company. Many >companies combined create a market. Why aren't all the nerds and small businesses out there a market? I'm no marketing expert or anything, but it would seem that there is some kind of market out there that isn't being catered to. I may be a masochist, but I refuse to have to pay Apples prices for their hardware. They just seem insane to me. If they ever decided to sell OS X for non-Apple hardware I might use it. And just for the record I've been using FreeBSD as an exclusive home desktop since 1999. At work now so however Outlook mangles this is my fault :) Rod Person Programmer (412)454-2616 Just because it can been done, does not mean it should be done. ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:57 AM, Sean Bruno wrote: > Why even bother? Its over, just embrace the future and be like this > happy Mac user: > > http://people.freebsd.org/~sbruno/happy_desktop_user.jpg I have Macs at work (typing on one now), and a mac at home. I like them. I recently installed FreeBSD 10 on an Intel i5 NUC. 16GB ram, and a 120GB m-SATA SSD. I put a nice keyboard and an old 19” Dell monitor on it, used vidconsole to make the screen green on black, and a decent resolution. It’s just like being back in the 80s, when Unix had a desktop market, only much, much faster. ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There never > has been and there never will be. Oh, god. I'm going to wake up for this mailing list just to say this: You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the nerds are going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my desktop! It's totally viable!" Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual use case doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a market. It's a basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a small company. Many companies combined create a market. Back to sleep. ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
> -Original Message- > From: Lars Engels [mailto:lars.eng...@0x20.net] > Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 2:41 AM > To: Jordan Hubbard > Cc: Eitan Adler; hack...@freebsd.org; curr...@freebsd.org; freebsd- > advoc...@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market > > On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 12:11:19PM +0500, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > > > > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > > > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the [snip] > I'm a happy FreeBSD desktop user since 4.7. There are some edges, but I > really like that I can can create a desktop the way _I_ want it and my mail > client even allows me to break lines at 80 chars. Eat that, Apple Mail! ;-) What e-mail client do you use? Evolution? -- Devin _ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Fwd: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
Sorry, should have replied to everybody ;) Cheers -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market Date: Tuesday 01 April 2014, 17:34:28 From: Stefan Wendler To: freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org Hi, On Monday 31 March 2014 22:46:45 Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi all, > > Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" > and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can > be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a > desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD > can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default > and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. > I don't know the posts you are talking about. I'm using FreeBSD as a server since Version 7. Since FreeBSD 9 I'm also using it as main notebook OS. With everything you can imagine: sound, flash, 3D gfx, eve online via wine rocks, printing, scanning, you name it. Yes, FreeBSD has some rough edges. But after over 18 years of Linux I can say, Linux has enough rough edges and depending on the current needs I more than freaked out once with each distro. And I still am freaking out on a daily basis as a *nix admin when one of the Linux's shows their true face. Like undocumented autoupgrading that messes up your whole ovirt-cluster. I never had that with a BSD. But what there is to learn is, I only ever had problems with consumer/cheap hardware. Most Linux Distros suck at least one way. For me the only Distro that really made me happy for over 14 years was Gentoo. In a way FreeBSD is similar but much much cleaner and sorted. It may be that FreeBSD is not for you and you are more the Linux Mint/*buntu user. But it would be a nightmare for me, if the good FreeBSD folks would stop supporting X-stuff. I even give to the FreeBSD Foundation on a monthly basis with the wish to further support the desktop. FreeBSD is quite simple once you get the hang of it. But you have to be the person that likes to dig in sometimes. Currently it runs as smooth as butter here. When learning to use Gentoo for example I had not only one sleepless night where I had to fix broken libc upgrades without the ability to google that. But this is how we learn. With FreeBSD you have at least a running base system even if you mess up big time. Delete /usr/local/* but keep your /usr/local/etc and start over ... try that with Linux. No chance! I can go on here ;) The big lag of FreeBSD is indeed vendor support. But it won't get better if we drop support for stuff. I'm sorry FreeBSD is such an upsetting experience for you. > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > Linux world? ... PCBSD stands out in that it is a really nice experience and people from the Linux world are asking about it and it just plain works mostly out of the box like a ubuntu or mint does, on hardware that is not no-name. And there is always GhostBSD (http://www.ghostbsd.org/) ... so there are two flavours already ;) The base system is still FreeBSD but I don't think that this is a problem. Ever fu**d around with getting the right packages in the right versions of some tools for example SuSE, CentOS, Debian, or whatever without freaking out? The different approaches in packaging systems on Linux is a mess as well. PCBSD is not for me though. But not that is isn't working but it is not for me as a BSD user as Ubuntu never was for me as a Linux/Gentoo user. Linux is not the silver bullet. And in every Linux forum there are always people that complain about why Linux or this or that distro sucks and why they move on. And even Linux wouldn't be what it is without the various BSDs. Cheers, Stefan P.S. One thing they could upgrade though is the linuxulator. ___ freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" - ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Mon, March 31, 2014 10:46 pm, Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi all, > > > Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" > and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can be a > worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. > In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD > can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and > often doesn't work as well as we would expect. > > The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: > > > Battery life sucks: itâs almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows > can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two > hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely itâs that we > focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can > run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? > > Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically > change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that > in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at > an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming > to other machines working if you tried. > > FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't > released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD. > Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with > the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"? > > In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera > only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for > vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux > anyways. > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server > or embedded use. > > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux > world? > > Eitan Adler > ___ > freebsd-curr...@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" Hi, I don't understand the gripe about sound. OSS works well. If you install the verson in ports, audio/oss, you get a more elaborate set of tools. (you can use the tools with the OSS drivers in base, its possible to remove the base OSS system and *only* use the updated OSS system however there are some caveats that may cause serious issues with a 'user', if you don't want to get your hands dirty don't mess with that.) Anyhow, last I went through a few month period of experimenting with sound and picked up a bunch of hardware on ebay, different cards from various vendors, ie asus, creative, etc. Its possible and not too difficult to have four or five cards on the machine and use them simultaneously. I didn't notice any problem switching from speakers to headphones while music is playing. Maybe this works on other operating systems, i haven't tried. The thing about sound, the card is a digital-to-analog converter, and vice-versa. It uses PCM data. (PCM was actually first 'invented' in the 1800's - no fools joke). Digital audio/Sound has never really gotten better, it has only gotten cheaper. -- Waitman Gobble San Jose California USA +1.510-830-7975 ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
RE: Leaving the Desktop Market
> -Original Message- > From: Eitan Adler [mailto:li...@eitanadler.com] > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 10:47 PM > To: hack...@freebsd.org; curr...@freebsd.org; freebsd- > advoc...@freebsd.org > Subject: Leaving the Desktop Market > > Hi all, > > Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" > and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can be a > worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. In > short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to do > the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as well > as > we would expect. > > The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: > > Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows can run > for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two hours. I > wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that we focus so much on > performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can run for 12 hours > on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? > > Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically > change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do > that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring > at > an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming to > other machines working if you tried. > > FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't > released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD. > Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with the caveat: "but > you won't be able to use your graphics card"? > > In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera only > works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for vendors > to > bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux anyways. > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop > market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux desktop" and > start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. > > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must > ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? > Eitan, While I understand your frustration, VICOR is using FreeBSD as a Desktop since FreeBSD 2.2. We don't use sound and we are fine relying on vesa. While I understand that the things you listed are actual short-comings for normal Desktop users, I think it's the wrong decision to say that we should be backing out *any* functionality that would make the Desktop any more difficult to produce. As it stands, it would take me weeks just to count the number of workstations that are running a GUI, rely on one of the existing video drivers (nv, radeon, mach64, etc.) and use lots of Desktop ports. -- Devin _ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
> Hi all, > > Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" > and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can > be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a > desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD > can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default > and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. Ha, ha, ha. Reminds me of the long running 04-01 gag stating that kernel.org ran on FreeBSD. As to "Leaving the Desktop Market"; +1. OK by me. OTOH The following /will/ give you everything you /claim/ isn't /currently/ possible. x11/xorg-minimal x11-wm/xfce4 audio/aquqlung multimedia/vlc The above list also gives you the ability to switch output(s) on the fly (via mixer). "exotic" video card? emulators/linux_base-f10 x11/nvidia-driver --Chris P.S. Happy April fools to you, too. > > The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: > > Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows > can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it > two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that > we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS > can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run > for 16? > > Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically > change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do > that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be > staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get > sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. > > FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't > released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on > FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with > the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"? > > In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera > only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason > for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape > Linux anyways. > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for > server or embedded use. > > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > Linux world? > > Eitan Adler > ___ > freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > > ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Mon, 2014-03-31 at 22:46 -0700, Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi all, > > Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" > and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can > be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a > desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD > can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default > and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. > > The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: > > Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows > can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it > two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that > we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS > can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run > for 16? > > Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically > change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do > that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be > staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get > sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. > > FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't > released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on > FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with > the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"? > > In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera > only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason > for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape > Linux anyways. > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for > server or embedded use. > > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > Linux world? > Why even bother? Its over, just embrace the future and be like this happy Mac user: http://people.freebsd.org/~sbruno/happy_desktop_user.jpg sean ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 12:11:19PM +0500, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > > desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for > > server or embedded use. > > > > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > > Linux world? > > The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if > it’s just an elaborate April Fool’s joke, but then the notion of *BSD > (or Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another > long-running April fool’s joke, so I’m willing to postulate that two > April Fools jokes would simply cancel each other out and make this > posting a serious one again. :-) > > I’ll choose to be serious and say what I’m about to say in spite of > the fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually > like the fact that it has created some interesting technologies like > PBIs, the Jail Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There > never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose > “the power to serve” as FreeBSD’s first marketing slogan? It makes a > fine server OS and it’s easy to defend its role in the server room. > It’s also becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which > is another excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the > recent developments there. > > A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be “BSD on the desktop” > (and while they share some common technologies, it’s increasingly a > stretch to say that), it’s just never going to happen for (at least) > the following reasons: > > 1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete > top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just > trying to idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You > need to optimize all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power > efficiency (which actually involves a fair amount of micro > architecture knowledge), you need a kernel scheduler that is power > management aware, you need a process management system that runs as > few things as possible and knows how to schedule things during package > wake-up intervals, you need timers to be coalesced at the level where > applications consume them, the list just goes on and on. It’s a lot > of engineering work, and to drive that work you also need a lot of > telemetry data and people with big sticks running around hitting > people who write power-inefficient code. FreeBSD has neither. > > 2. Multimedia. A real end-user’s desktop is basically one big UI for > watching things, listening to things, and running apps. A decent > audio / video subsystem is just one part of the picture, and one that > has always been really weak - entire engineering teams can spend years > working on codecs, performance optimizations, low and guaranteed > latency support for audio I/O, etc. What’s worse, the bar is only > being raised. You want to be part of the next wave of folks who can > author and edit content for the new 4K video standard? Not on FreeBSD > or Linux, you’re not. > > 3. Applications. A desktop without real and useful applications is > not a desktop, it’s just an empty display surface. Sure, there are > users out there who are happy with just a mail client, a web browser > and maybe a calendaring app, but those users are also arguably even > better candidates for Chrome or other simplified environments where > all of that simply happens in a fancy web browser and you get things > like “software updates” and cloud integration essentially for free > since it’s all just one cohesive picture there. The ability to solve > those user’s needs very simply makes them ripe targets for the web > application delivery platforms. > > For the other folks who want to do fancier stuff like mix audio, edit > videos or even just play mainstream 3D games that were actually > published sometime in the last year, they’ll use a real desktop OS and > won't even bother looking at one of the free ones because guess what, > the free ones just can’t do those things, or do them badly enough that > their users feel like they’re perpetually living in a kind of > self-selected ghetto. Metaphorically speaking, sleeping on the floor > in a sleeping bag in your one-room apartment is fine when you’re > young, but as you get older, you want to be more comfortable and have > a real bed in a real house! > > Those are just three reasons. There are lots more, not least of which > among them is the fact that it’s damn hard even just to *create* > significant applications with the weak-ass APIs that *BSD and Linux > provide. You have to stitch together some Frankenstein collec
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On 1 Apr 2014, at 08:11, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > 1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete > top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just trying to > idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You need to optimize > all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power efficiency (which > actually involves a fair amount of micro architecture knowledge), you need a > kernel scheduler that is power management aware, you need a process > management system that runs as few things as possible and knows how to > schedule things during package wake-up intervals, you need timers to be > coalesced at the level where applications consume them, the list just goes on > and on. It’s a lot of engineering work, and to drive that work you also need > a lot of telemetry data and people with big sticks running around hitting > people who write power-inefficient code. FreeBSD has neither. Just a small note here: Improving power management is something that the Core Team and the Foundation have jointly identified as an important goal, in particular for mobile / embedded scenarios. We're currently coordinating potential sponsors for the work and soliciting proposals from people interested in doing the work. If you know of anyone in either category then please drop either me, core, or the Foundation an email. Some things have already seen progress, for example Davide's calloutng work includes timer coalescing, but there are still a lot of, uh, opportunities for improvement. The Symbian EKA2 book has some very interesting detail on their power management infrastructure, which would be worth looking at for anyone interested in working on this, and I believe your former employer had some expertise in this area. Of course, no matter how good the base system becomes at power management, we still can't prevent stuff in ports running idle spinloops. We can, however, provide tools that encourage power-efficient design. For example, currently hald wakes up every 30 seconds and polls the optical drive if you have one. Why? Because there's no devd event when a CD is inserted, so the only way for it to get these notifications is polling. If you have a laptop with an optical drive, this is really bad for power usage. David ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
Hi, On 04/01/14 07:46, Eitan Adler wrote: Hi all, Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. Can this be translated that "the green is always better on the other side" ? The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. I agree that there are usability issues with the sound framework in FreeBSD. I've seen this myself, for example trying to get sound using firefox, you now need pulseaudio and it must be configured correctly. I'm pretty sure there are people around in the FreeBSD project that are quite capable and could easily fix these issues, given some coordination and funding. Probably you should ask the FreeBSD foundation to fund a developer for a year or two to work on the desktop issues. Desktop is complicated. You need to understand that many device frameworks are designed entirely for other platforms, and I think that the current approach to compile Linux oriented code like "HAL" under FreeBSD is not always the right approach. We need to make our own "HAL" that is compatible with the "Linux" Applications, that need to know where the scanner or webcam is attached. Speaking about sound again, I think we need a tiny library and daemon that sits between /dev/dspX.X and the applications, that pulls together the most common audio libraries, like portaudio, pulseaudio and the KDE one, into a single and brand new solution. I did propose something at EuroBSDcon last year, that we can use character device emulation in user-space, cuse4bsd, to achieve this. That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Did FreeBSD ever compete on the Desktop market? While touching this topic, I must say that I'm very grateful to all you port-guys that keep stuff compiling and working on the Desktop front. I've asked myself a few times during the last couple of years, who are the people really making my FreeBSD Desktop work? Did they receive enough thanks or funds for their work? Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? Because something does not work in FreeBSD it can prove an excellent opportunity for someone to fix it! Don't underestimate that! --HPS ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for > server or embedded use. > > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > Linux world? The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if it’s just an elaborate April Fool’s joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April fool’s joke, so I’m willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again. :-) I’ll choose to be serious and say what I’m about to say in spite of the fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the Jail Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose “the power to serve” as FreeBSD’s first marketing slogan? It makes a fine server OS and it’s easy to defend its role in the server room. It’s also becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent developments there. A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be “BSD on the desktop” (and while they share some common technologies, it’s increasingly a stretch to say that), it’s just never going to happen for (at least) the following reasons: 1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just trying to idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You need to optimize all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power efficiency (which actually involves a fair amount of micro architecture knowledge), you need a kernel scheduler that is power management aware, you need a process management system that runs as few things as possible and knows how to schedule things during package wake-up intervals, you need timers to be coalesced at the level where applications consume them, the list just goes on and on. It’s a lot of engineering work, and to drive that work you also need a lot of telemetry data and people with big sticks running around hitting people who write power-inefficient code. FreeBSD has neither. 2. Multimedia. A real end-user’s desktop is basically one big UI for watching things, listening to things, and running apps. A decent audio / video subsystem is just one part of the picture, and one that has always been really weak - entire engineering teams can spend years working on codecs, performance optimizations, low and guaranteed latency support for audio I/O, etc. What’s worse, the bar is only being raised. You want to be part of the next wave of folks who can author and edit content for the new 4K video standard? Not on FreeBSD or Linux, you’re not. 3. Applications. A desktop without real and useful applications is not a desktop, it’s just an empty display surface. Sure, there are users out there who are happy with just a mail client, a web browser and maybe a calendaring app, but those users are also arguably even better candidates for Chrome or other simplified environments where all of that simply happens in a fancy web browser and you get things like “software updates” and cloud integration essentially for free since it’s all just one cohesive picture there. The ability to solve those user’s needs very simply makes them ripe targets for the web application delivery platforms. For the other folks who want to do fancier stuff like mix audio, edit videos or even just play mainstream 3D games that were actually published sometime in the last year, they’ll use a real desktop OS and won't even bother looking at one of the free ones because guess what, the free ones just can’t do those things, or do them badly enough that their users feel like they’re perpetually living in a kind of self-selected ghetto. Metaphorically speaking, sleeping on the floor in a sleeping bag in your one-room apartment is fine when you’re young, but as you get older, you want to be more comfortable and have a real bed in a real house! Those are just three reasons. There are lots more, not least of which among them is the fact that it’s damn hard even just to *create* significant applications with the weak-ass APIs that *BSD and Linux provide. You have to stitch together some Frankenstein collection of libraries out of ports (or linux packages) and then hope the whole pile of multi-“vendor" bits will sort of work together, which of course they rarely do because they were writ
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On 4/1/2014 1:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: Hi all, Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"? In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux anyways. That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? I don't know much about BSD on the desktop, but it's somewhere I'd like to go eventually. This comment caught me off, however. The fact that there are thousands of flavors of Linux vs one flavor of a BSD desktop is sort of irrelivant--it could be applied, by that same method to BSD as a server. there are hundreds of Linux distributions that can be used as a server, so by your logic, "how do hundreds of Linux servers stand up to 3 flavors of BSD?" I switched to BSD for a few reasons: 1) The documentation is amazing. As with any project, it can be improved as was mentioned in the most recent BSDNow, but the only other close call I can see is maybe Archlinux, and I don't want that on a server. 2) The ports and PKGNG system is beyond amazing. 3) The organization is more amazing. Everything is incredibly intuitive. I love the customization, flexability and organization of BSD. 4) I didn't care until rather recently, but anything that lets me rely less and less on GNU and the GPL is a bonus. Given this, I commend everyone who has put hundreds of hours of work into making BSD a desktop system. Rather than suggest that BSD stays merely a server OS, why not pose these issues as problems or milestones. Perhaps sound has some drawbacks, but when the day arrives when it is up to par, I can almost guarantee if the BSD ideals remain the same that it'll be so much easier and cleaner to use than pulse/alsa, etc. Eitan Adler ___ freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Leaving the Desktop Market
On 4/1/14, 1:46 PM, Eitan Adler wrote: Hi all Hey it's not an apr 1 joke if it's true.. ___ freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
