Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
Synopsis: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list State-Changed-From-To: open->closed State-Changed-By: jhb State-Changed-When: Fri Dec 2 17:58:50 GMT 2005 State-Changed-Why: Closed at submitter's request after discussion. Submitter is following up with the jp.freebsd.org admins directly. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=89731 ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
The following reply was made to PR advocacy/89731; it has been noted by GNATS.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Takeo Hashimoto)
To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:01:41 +0900
Hi all.
I was waiting reply from jp admins, but at this present time,
I have not gotten it yet. so I want to close PR first.
This is (my) summary.
-From-To: open->closed
-Why:
It is not a suitable topic for PR.
1) Send-pr does not effect subdomain.FreeBSD.org diretly.
2) Subdomain.FreeBSD.org are delegated to a separate group and granted
to act autonomous, and there are volunteer admins for each subdomain.
3) People who feel doubt should contact to each subdomain's admins first.
That's enough to close this PR. period.
Thanks to: John Baldwin, Remko Lodder, Lanny Baron, and all readers.
^L
rests are just for reference.
looking back on PR description:
- newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site.
People who wont search can hit articles with good keywords.
People who won't search posts a questions to lists without subscribe.
- almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of community.
roughly saying, then they can fork, they can set up another list.
- oldie does not think about mass happiness.
No, jp.FreeBSD.org's lists may have at least marginal filter.
and also "posting without subscribe" is useful especially for newbie.
- once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from archive.
Unfortunately no one can stop it.
People should protect themselves from spams by some filter.
- waste network traffic and server resource.
It is such an age. (sigh)
- distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer"
(no response about this, but it does not mean assent)
also there were three more topics about list management:
about list policy:
It is useful to keep lists "open" for questioner.
Some kind of list (e.g. for admin) may be suitable to close ("restrited").
about protecting lists (server side):
Admins may implement some level of filtering at server side
and tuning filter (aggressive or lenient) is admins matter.
about protecting individual (user side):
No one can stop spam tsunami, so people have to protect them by themselves.
That's all.
# sorry of my strange English. :(
#--#
# Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. #
#--#
___
freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
Hi all.
I was waiting reply from jp admins, but at this present time,
I have not gotten it yet. so I want to close PR first.
This is (my) summary.
-From-To: open->closed
-Why:
It is not a suitable topic for PR.
1) Send-pr does not effect subdomain.FreeBSD.org diretly.
2) Subdomain.FreeBSD.org are delegated to a separate group and granted
to act autonomous, and there are volunteer admins for each subdomain.
3) People who feel doubt should contact to each subdomain's admins first.
That's enough to close this PR. period.
Thanks to: John Baldwin, Remko Lodder, Lanny Baron, and all readers.
^L
rests are just for reference.
looking back on PR description:
- newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site.
People who wont search can hit articles with good keywords.
People who won't search posts a questions to lists without subscribe.
- almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of community.
roughly saying, then they can fork, they can set up another list.
- oldie does not think about mass happiness.
No, jp.FreeBSD.org's lists may have at least marginal filter.
and also "posting without subscribe" is useful especially for newbie.
- once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from archive.
Unfortunately no one can stop it.
People should protect themselves from spams by some filter.
- waste network traffic and server resource.
It is such an age. (sigh)
- distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer"
(no response about this, but it does not mean assent)
also there were three more topics about list management:
about list policy:
It is useful to keep lists "open" for questioner.
Some kind of list (e.g. for admin) may be suitable to close ("restrited").
about protecting lists (server side):
Admins may implement some level of filtering at server side
and tuning filter (aggressive or lenient) is admins matter.
about protecting individual (user side):
No one can stop spam tsunami, so people have to protect them by themselves.
That's all.
# sorry of my strange English. :(
#--#
# Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. #
#--#
___
freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
On Thursday 01 December 2005 10:10 pm, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > >What > > do you really want the project to do? > > I had misunderstood that send-pr will reach to jp admins, > but now I know send-pr system is not directly connected to jp admins. > > so... If there is someone in the project who can contact to jp admins, > and if he can, would he please forward this topic to them? > That is the only thing that I can want the project to do. Ok, that sounds reasonable. I can point one of the guys on core@ at this PR actually since he is in .jp and I think he might work with jp.freebsd.org. > >All we can really do is point the jp.freebsd.org > > domain at a different set of folks, but we can't do that unless a > > different set of folks with machines exist and are setup and have > > demonstrated that they are more responsive than the existing jp folks. > > waoh waoh it is the last choise that I don't want. > I am not a terrorist, I want to make better changes (or no changes) > peacefully. I understand. I'm mostly just trying to make a point about what the project can or can not do. I guess the biggest thing is that freebsd.org and jp.freebsd.org aren't very tightly joined, but fairly independent of each other. > >> OK, then, this PR was wrong topic. > >> my last task of this PR is only one thing: > >> - post a summary > >> > >> ...am I wrong again? :) > > > >You can post a summary if you wish. I'll probably close the PR after that > >though. > > Thanks. I am now preparing it, please wait more few hours. Sure. > >> anyway, I will keep act to jp admins. thanks. > > > >Ok, that's the best thing to do for now. If the jp folks are not > > responsive you can send an e-mail to core@, but note that from the notes > > above there really isn't a whole lot core can do other than perhaps pull > > jp.freebsd.org but that would only be viable if the current jp was worse > > than having no jp at all, which I highly doubt would be true. > > I hope that I do not send claim to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > We still need jp subdomain, I just want to make it better. Yes, I wouldn't expect you need to resort to e-mailing [EMAIL PROTECTED] Due to the way the projects are organized however, as far as freebsd.org itself, e-mailing core@ is about all you can really do. Anything less drastic requires interacting with jp.freebsd.org directly, but I think we're both clear on that now. -- John Baldwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
On Thu, 02 Dec 2005 01:50 JST, John Baldwin wrote: >> >If you can't get them to be responsive, then you can also take action by >> >setting up your own mailing lists with the policies that you wish to use. >> >> I don't want fork. >> >> I think that if I (and most jp.FreeBSD.org list user) can't get them >> to be responsive, there should be some re-election to disclose >> the dicision making process even if mobocracy. >> >> am I wrong again? > >Well, this goes back to the "whoever does the work" part. Let's assume for >argument's sake that the folks at jp.freebsd.org are unresponsive. OK, I think this is the most sensitive matter. I will try to take this with sufficient care when I talk to jp admins. Thanks for your mention it. >What do >you really want the project to do? I had misunderstood that send-pr will reach to jp admins, but now I know send-pr system is not directly connected to jp admins. so... If there is someone in the project who can contact to jp admins, and if he can, would he please forward this topic to them? That is the only thing that I can want the project to do. >We don't have accounts on the jp machines >so we can't change things directly (and it would be somewhat rude to muck >around on someone else's machines anyway). We can't force the jp folks to >give their machines up to someone else, it's their hardware, they can do what >they want with it. yeah. no doubt. it is clear. >All we can really do is point the jp.freebsd.org domain >at a different set of folks, but we can't do that unless a different set of >folks with machines exist and are setup and have demonstrated that they are >more responsive than the existing jp folks. waoh waoh it is the last choise that I don't want. I am not a terrorist, I want to make better changes (or no changes) peacefully. >> OK, then, this PR was wrong topic. >> my last task of this PR is only one thing: >> - post a summary >> >> ...am I wrong again? :) > >You can post a summary if you wish. I'll probably close the PR after that >though. Thanks. I am now preparing it, please wait more few hours. >> anyway, I will keep act to jp admins. thanks. > >Ok, that's the best thing to do for now. If the jp folks are not responsive >you can send an e-mail to core@, but note that from the notes above there >really isn't a whole lot core can do other than perhaps pull jp.freebsd.org >but that would only be viable if the current jp was worse than having no jp >at all, which I highly doubt would be true. I hope that I do not send claim to [EMAIL PROTECTED] We still need jp subdomain, I just want to make it better. #--# # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # #--# ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
On Wednesday 30 November 2005 01:03 pm, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > >Have you tried talking to the jp.FreeBSD.org admins directly? > > OK now I know that it was my mistake that I had started from send-PR. > I had to start contacting to jp admins. > # yes, I sent some mail to them an hour ago. Great. Hopefully they can address your questions directly. > >Have you volunteered to help out with doing some of the work if so? > > actually not yet. > I want to do so, as I am just a poor user, I am not a developer, > but I want to spend my time to make it better. > > am I wrong again? No, you aren't wrong. It just takes a while to learn how things work in the project and then to figure out how to make things better taking that into account. Also, you would have to talk to the admins first before offering any help anyway. > >If you can't get them to be responsive, then you can also take action by > >setting up your own mailing lists with the policies that you wish to use. > > I don't want fork. > > I think that if I (and most jp.FreeBSD.org list user) can't get them > to be responsive, there should be some re-election to disclose > the dicision making process even if mobocracy. > > am I wrong again? Well, this goes back to the "whoever does the work" part. Let's assume for argument's sake that the folks at jp.freebsd.org are unresponsive. What do you really want the project to do? We don't have accounts on the jp machines so we can't change things directly (and it would be somewhat rude to muck around on someone else's machines anyway). We can't force the jp folks to give their machines up to someone else, it's their hardware, they can do what they want with it. All we can really do is point the jp.freebsd.org domain at a different set of folks, but we can't do that unless a different set of folks with machines exist and are setup and have demonstrated that they are more responsive than the existing jp folks. > >> I think we are same on this point: > >> "how to make it easy for new people to get started with FreeBSD?" > >> > >> but the conclusion is different. You say "open the door (with > >> gatekeeper)" I say "close the door until you examine the newcomer is a > >> human". > >> > >> I think that it is policy problem, so jp admins need to have public > >> hearing. Will this PR cause their action? I hope. > > > >Well, I'm not sure any of the jp guys are reading this exchange, so I > > don't know if it will result in any action or not. The PR database > > really isn't suited well for this type of request either. If you haven't > > talked to the jp folks directly, then you should do that first (but not > > the caveats I mentioned earlier). If you have talked to the jp folks and > > are unhappy with their response, you can try to bring the issue to [EMAIL > > PROTECTED] > > However, if you are unable to convince the jp admins to make a change, > > your best bet may be to work on setting up your own alternative list. > > OK, then, this PR was wrong topic. > my last task of this PR is only one thing: > - post a summary > > ...am I wrong again? :) You can post a summary if you wish. I'll probably close the PR after that though. > anyway, I will keep act to jp admins. thanks. Ok, that's the best thing to do for now. If the jp folks are not responsive you can send an e-mail to core@, but note that from the notes above there really isn't a whole lot core can do other than perhaps pull jp.freebsd.org but that would only be viable if the current jp was worse than having no jp at all, which I highly doubt would be true. -- John Baldwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
Mr.Baldwin, thanks for your guidance. On Thu 01 Dec 2005 00:49 JST, John Baldwin wrote: >> >On Wednesday 30 November 2005 01:07 am, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: >> >> Currently every subscriber has to spend their time >> >> wading through the spam to pick up the ones which are not spam. >> >> (Of course it is dissipation of resources.) >> > >> >Yes, I use spamassassin personally. Also, I should note that >> > FreeBSD.org's mail server employs some aggressive spam filtering which >> > stops a lot of it from showing up on FreeBSD lists. Perhaps the jp folks >> > could setup some spam filtering on their mail server as well to cut down >> > on the load. Note that only a couple of FreeBSD.org lists are >> > restrict_post, most are open. >> >> FreeBSD.org lists may be greater than jp's, but you said to me: >> > Also, I should note that >> > FreeBSD.org's mail server employs some aggressive spam filtering which >> > stops a lot of it from showing up on FreeBSD lists. >> >> it is very good. I'm very grad to hear that. >> we all want to hear same explanation from jp admins. >> >> There is no transparency on jp.FreeBSD.org, >> so we feel no democracy and admins dogma. > >Yes, but with volunteer projects you as a user can't just go mandate that the >people doing the work go spend their time doing X. FreeBSD isn't that much >of a democracy either. Granted, core members are elected, but only by >developers, not by users. This is something of a common theme in the Open >Source world in that the people who do the work get to make decisions. >FreeBSD.org also has very little oversight of xx.FreeBSD.org, those entities >are fairly autonomous. Have you tried talking to the jp.FreeBSD.org admins >directly? Have you volunteered to help out with doing some of the work if >so? If you can't get them to be responsive, then you can also take action by >setting up your own mailing lists with the policies that you wish to use. If >users end up preferring your lists then at some point your list may supersede >the current list at jp.FreeBSD.org. # you're breakin' my heart. :( >Have you tried talking to the jp.FreeBSD.org admins directly? OK now I know that it was my mistake that I had started from send-PR. I had to start contacting to jp admins. # yes, I sent some mail to them an hour ago. >Have you volunteered to help out with doing some of the work if so? actually not yet. I want to do so, as I am just a poor user, I am not a developer, but I want to spend my time to make it better. am I wrong again? >If you can't get them to be responsive, then you can also take action by >setting up your own mailing lists with the policies that you wish to use. I don't want fork. I think that if I (and most jp.FreeBSD.org list user) can't get them to be responsive, there should be some re-election to disclose the dicision making process even if mobocracy. am I wrong again? >> I think we are same on this point: >> "how to make it easy for new people to get started with FreeBSD?" >> >> but the conclusion is different. You say "open the door (with gatekeeper)" >> I say "close the door until you examine the newcomer is a human". >> >> I think that it is policy problem, so jp admins need to have public >> hearing. Will this PR cause their action? I hope. > >Well, I'm not sure any of the jp guys are reading this exchange, so I don't >know if it will result in any action or not. The PR database really isn't >suited well for this type of request either. If you haven't talked to the jp >folks directly, then you should do that first (but not the caveats I >mentioned earlier). If you have talked to the jp folks and are unhappy with >their response, you can try to bring the issue to [EMAIL PROTECTED] However, >if you are >unable to convince the jp admins to make a change, your best bet may be to >work on setting up your own alternative list. OK, then, this PR was wrong topic. my last task of this PR is only one thing: - post a summary ...am I wrong again? :) anyway, I will keep act to jp admins. thanks. #--# # Takeo Hashimoto. It's impossible, ...but doable. # #--# ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
Hello, Mr.Lodder. now I almost agreed with you. - "restrict" is not a golden hammer for some lists. - no one can stop spam tsunami, so people have to protect them by themselves. - on the other hand, we may implement some level of filtering at server side. - sending PR does not change jp.freebsd.org. I should act directly to them. On Thu, Dec 01, 2005 00:29 JST, Remko Lodder wrote: >> I don't think so, they do search first on the web before posting mail. >> and that is my 1st point. >> - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. >> because the archive has been filled with spam. > >You are colliding with yourself here i think. People do not search the >archives first and then ask questions, as someone who helped out on >questions@ a year ago, i can tell you that. Also -if- people search >on the archives and they give good keywords they will find the proper >information without the spam. > >> >> But I agree "open" and "restrict_post" should be beneficiate for each >> list. >> >>> The other problem >>> is that >>>some ML, like questions@, get a large number of e-mails a day. I'm >>> not sure >>>it's fair to require a user to wade through a hundred or more >>> non-spams just >>>so they can ask a question. >> >> If user posts some questions to the list, >> then he might get some answer, and also much hard spam? >> unfortunately it is true at jp.FreeBSD lists. >> I think the policy "restrict_post" will save him (and also us). >> >> but you don't think so. mmm... > >I think that it will not work; restrict post requires manual >intervention and that will cost a lot of overhead; many posts will be >blocked and in the end no one will be happy. The one thing that can be >done on the jp.freebsd.org side is filtering more agressively like the >freebsd.org mx records do. Also these days end users should have >enabled spam filters, mostly that is an option through the ISP they >use, and imo people cannot live without some kind of filtering anymore, >and that will only get worse (and worse; and worse). > >> > Adding restrict_post actually is a lot of work on the admins since > someone has to handle all the bounced e-mails. I think we can simply ignore them (>/dev/null). If you have better idea to stop deliver spam, please let me know. >>> >>>Most of the FreeBSD developers when we have had discussions on spam >>> recently >> >> "discussions" sounds good. >> >> I think we are same on this point: >> "how to make it easy for new people to get started with FreeBSD?" >> > >We should provide proper help to the people that have questions and do >the thing we can do (implement some level of filtering at our side by >using blacklists or something). > >> but the conclusion is different. You say "open the door (with >> gatekeeper)" >> I say "close the door until you examine the newcomer is a human". > >I'd say; open a can of people that can help you manage this and you are >welcome to put this into production ;-) > >> >> I think that it is policy problem, so jp admins need to have public >> hearing. >> Will this PR cause their action? I hope. > >I do not think this will cause [EMAIL PROTECTED] to start doing >something with it. This mailinglist, nor any of the others are for that >specific reason. you should contact them immediatly... > >> >>>have concluded that the spam problem is so large and extent, that the >>> only >>>real solution is for the receiver to block spam. >> >> well, we have to write easy-setup-guide of spam-filter >> for beginners, and have to shout to them >> "Wait! set up your filter before you post!" > >Right, and that people should not drive too hard since they will >get traffic fines and that they should not steal, kill and such.. >impossible :-) > >> #--# >> # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # >> #--# >> > >-- >Kind regards, > > Remko Lodder ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] >FreeBSD ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] #--# # Takeo Hashimoto. It's impossible, ...but doable. # #--# ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
On Wednesday 30 November 2005 09:20 am, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > Thanks following up. > > On Wednesday 30 November 2005 22:11 JST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote > > >On Wednesday 30 November 2005 01:07 am, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > >> Currently every subscriber has to spend their time > >> wading through the spam to pick up the ones which are not spam. > >> (Of course it is dissipation of resources.) > > > >Yes, I use spamassassin personally. Also, I should note that > > FreeBSD.org's mail server employs some aggressive spam filtering which > > stops a lot of it from showing up on FreeBSD lists. Perhaps the jp folks > > could setup some spam filtering on their mail server as well to cut down > > on the load. Note that only a couple of FreeBSD.org lists are > > restrict_post, most are open. > > FreeBSD.org lists may be greater than jp's, but you said to me: > > Also, I should note that > > FreeBSD.org's mail server employs some aggressive spam filtering which > > stops a lot of it from showing up on FreeBSD lists. > > it is very good. I'm very grad to hear that. > we all want to hear same explanation from jp admins. > > There is no transparency on jp.FreeBSD.org, > so we feel no democracy and admins dogma. Yes, but with volunteer projects you as a user can't just go mandate that the people doing the work go spend their time doing X. FreeBSD isn't that much of a democracy either. Granted, core members are elected, but only by developers, not by users. This is something of a common theme in the Open Source world in that the people who do the work get to make decisions. FreeBSD.org also has very little oversight of xx.FreeBSD.org, those entities are fairly autonomous. Have you tried talking to the jp.FreeBSD.org admins directly? Have you volunteered to help out with doing some of the work if so? If you can't get them to be responsive, then you can also take action by setting up your own mailing lists with the policies that you wish to use. If users end up preferring your lists then at some point your list may supersede the current list at jp.FreeBSD.org. > >> >This means that someone new to FreeBSD > >> > will likely have their questions lost because the e-mail will never > >> > make it to the list (e.g. freebsd-questions) and would make it that > >> > much harder for new people to get help getting started with FreeBSD. > >> > >> It is not difficult to subscribe ML > >> even if they are new to FreeBSD. > > > >I think you overestimate the skill of some newbies. > > I don't think so, they do search first on the web before posting mail. > and that is my 1st point. Heh, if you've ever been on an IRC help channel you'll know that a lot don't search the web first. :) They just look for an IRC channel, mailing list, or newsgroup where they can post their question. > > The other problem is > > that some ML, like questions@, get a large number of e-mails a day. I'm > > not sure it's fair to require a user to wade through a hundred or more > > non-spams just so they can ask a question. > > If user posts some questions to the list, > then he might get some answer, and also much hard spam? > unfortunately it is true at jp.FreeBSD lists. > I think the policy "restrict_post" will save him (and also us). > > but you don't think so. mmm... I think that he will still get spam even if the list is restrict_post. He may not get spam that is sent to the list address directly, but now his e-mail is mirrorred in a bunch of places all over the net and easily harvested by spammers, thus by posting a question he is already going to be subject to a flood of spam directly to his personal address. Thus, regardless of restrict_post the user ends up with a lot of spam in his inbox one way or another. > I think we are same on this point: > "how to make it easy for new people to get started with FreeBSD?" > > but the conclusion is different. You say "open the door (with gatekeeper)" > I say "close the door until you examine the newcomer is a human". > > I think that it is policy problem, so jp admins need to have public > hearing. Will this PR cause their action? I hope. Well, I'm not sure any of the jp guys are reading this exchange, so I don't know if it will result in any action or not. The PR database really isn't suited well for this type of request either. If you haven't talked to the jp folks directly, then you should do that first (but not the caveats I mentioned earlier). If you have talked to the jp folks and are unhappy with their response, you can try to bring the issue to [EMAIL PROTECTED] However, if you are unable to convince the jp admins to make a change, your best bet may be to work on setting up your own alternative list. > >have concluded that the spam problem is so large and extent, that the only > >real solution is for the receiver to block spam. > > well, w
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
On Wed, November 30, 2005 15:20, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > > I don't think so, they do search first on the web before posting mail. > and that is my 1st point. > - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. > because the archive has been filled with spam. You are colliding with yourself here i think. People do not search the archives first and then ask questions, as someone who helped out on questions@ a year ago, i can tell you that. Also -if- people search on the archives and they give good keywords they will find the proper information without the spam. > > But I agree "open" and "restrict_post" should be beneficiate for each > list. > >> The other problem >> is that >>some ML, like questions@, get a large number of e-mails a day. I'm >> not sure >>it's fair to require a user to wade through a hundred or more >> non-spams just >>so they can ask a question. > > If user posts some questions to the list, > then he might get some answer, and also much hard spam? > unfortunately it is true at jp.FreeBSD lists. > I think the policy "restrict_post" will save him (and also us). > > but you don't think so. mmm... I think that it will not work; restrict post requires manual intervention and that will cost a lot of overhead; many posts will be blocked and in the end no one will be happy. The one thing that can be done on the jp.freebsd.org side is filtering more agressively like the freebsd.org mx records do. Also these days end users should have enabled spam filters, mostly that is an option through the ISP they use, and imo people cannot live without some kind of filtering anymore, and that will only get worse (and worse; and worse). > >>> > Adding restrict_post actually is a lot of work on the admins since >>> > someone has to handle all the bounced e-mails. >>> >>> I think we can simply ignore them (>/dev/null). >>> >>> If you have better idea to stop deliver spam, >>> please let me know. >> >>Most of the FreeBSD developers when we have had discussions on spam >> recently > > "discussions" sounds good. > > I think we are same on this point: > "how to make it easy for new people to get started with FreeBSD?" > We should provide proper help to the people that have questions and do the thing we can do (implement some level of filtering at our side by using blacklists or something). > but the conclusion is different. You say "open the door (with > gatekeeper)" > I say "close the door until you examine the newcomer is a human". I'd say; open a can of people that can help you manage this and you are welcome to put this into production ;-) > > I think that it is policy problem, so jp admins need to have public > hearing. > Will this PR cause their action? I hope. I do not think this will cause [EMAIL PROTECTED] to start doing something with it. This mailinglist, nor any of the others are for that specific reason. you should contact them immediatly... > >>have concluded that the spam problem is so large and extent, that the >> only >>real solution is for the receiver to block spam. > > well, we have to write easy-setup-guide of spam-filter > for beginners, and have to shout to them > "Wait! set up your filter before you post!" Right, and that people should not drive too hard since they will get traffic fines and that they should not steal, kill and such.. impossible :-) > #--# > # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # > #--# > -- Kind regards, Remko Lodder ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] FreeBSD ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
Thanks following up. On Wednesday 30 November 2005 22:11 JST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote >On Wednesday 30 November 2005 01:07 am, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: >> Currently every subscriber has to spend their time >> wading through the spam to pick up the ones which are not spam. >> (Of course it is dissipation of resources.) > >Yes, I use spamassassin personally. Also, I should note that FreeBSD.org's >mail server employs some aggressive spam filtering which stops a lot of it >from showing up on FreeBSD lists. Perhaps the jp folks could setup some spam >filtering on their mail server as well to cut down on the load. Note that >only a couple of FreeBSD.org lists are restrict_post, most are open. FreeBSD.org lists may be greater than jp's, but you said to me: > Also, I should note that FreeBSD.org's >mail server employs some aggressive spam filtering which stops a lot of it >from showing up on FreeBSD lists. it is very good. I'm very grad to hear that. we all want to hear same explanation from jp admins. There is no transparency on jp.FreeBSD.org, so we feel no democracy and admins dogma. >> >This means that someone new to FreeBSD >> > will likely have their questions lost because the e-mail will never >> > make it to the list (e.g. freebsd-questions) and would make it that >> > much harder for new people to get help getting started with FreeBSD. >> >> It is not difficult to subscribe ML >> even if they are new to FreeBSD. > >I think you overestimate the skill of some newbies. I don't think so, they do search first on the web before posting mail. and that is my 1st point. - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. because the archive has been filled with spam. But I agree "open" and "restrict_post" should be beneficiate for each list. > The other problem is that >some ML, like questions@, get a large number of e-mails a day. I'm not sure >it's fair to require a user to wade through a hundred or more non-spams just >so they can ask a question. If user posts some questions to the list, then he might get some answer, and also much hard spam? unfortunately it is true at jp.FreeBSD lists. I think the policy "restrict_post" will save him (and also us). but you don't think so. mmm... >> > Adding restrict_post actually is a lot of work on the admins since >> > someone has to handle all the bounced e-mails. >> >> I think we can simply ignore them (>/dev/null). >> >> If you have better idea to stop deliver spam, >> please let me know. > >Most of the FreeBSD developers when we have had discussions on spam recently "discussions" sounds good. I think we are same on this point: "how to make it easy for new people to get started with FreeBSD?" but the conclusion is different. You say "open the door (with gatekeeper)" I say "close the door until you examine the newcomer is a human". I think that it is policy problem, so jp admins need to have public hearing. Will this PR cause their action? I hope. >have concluded that the spam problem is so large and extent, that the only >real solution is for the receiver to block spam. well, we have to write easy-setup-guide of spam-filter for beginners, and have to shout to them "Wait! set up your filter before you post!" #--# # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # #--# ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
On Wednesday 30 November 2005 01:07 am, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > Currently every subscriber has to spend their time > wading through the spam to pick up the ones which are not spam. > (Of course it is dissipation of resources.) Yes, I use spamassassin personally. Also, I should note that FreeBSD.org's mail server employs some aggressive spam filtering which stops a lot of it from showing up on FreeBSD lists. Perhaps the jp folks could setup some spam filtering on their mail server as well to cut down on the load. Note that only a couple of FreeBSD.org lists are restrict_post, most are open. > >This means that someone new to FreeBSD > > will likely have their questions lost because the e-mail will never > > make it to the list (e.g. freebsd-questions) and would make it that > > much harder for new people to get help getting started with FreeBSD. > > It is not difficult to subscribe ML > even if they are new to FreeBSD. I think you overestimate the skill of some newbies. The other problem is that some ML, like questions@, get a large number of e-mails a day. I'm not sure it's fair to require a user to wade through a hundred or more non-spams just so they can ask a question. > > Adding restrict_post actually is a lot of work on the admins since > > someone has to handle all the bounced e-mails. > > I think we can simply ignore them (>/dev/null). > > If you have better idea to stop deliver spam, > please let me know. Most of the FreeBSD developers when we have had discussions on spam recently have concluded that the spam problem is so large and extent, that the only real solution is for the receiver to block spam. For example, since you've submitted a PR, you'll probably now get just as much spam from that and this e-mail exchange as you would by being on a jp list. The actual advocacy@ list might not get as much spam sent to it, but your personal e-mail address will be flooded, so you're going to need to setup some filtering on your receiving end no matter what. You can see more responses about that if you look at the recent thread on cvs-all about the commit to query-pr.cgi to sort-of hide e-mail addresses. -- John Baldwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
On Nov 30, 2005, at 13:38 JST, John Baldwin wrote: > Description: there are too many spams on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list. - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. - almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of community. - oldie does not think about mass happiness. - once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from archive. - waste network traffic and server resource. - distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer" (snip) >> OK, we can protect our mailbox by some filter. but spam >> pollutes ML archive (on the web) and spammer can get more >> reachable addresses. That is not an individual problem. >> that is a matter of ML management policy. >> and it should be changed to get happiness of the majority. >> >> Admins are volunteer, and they don't have much time, >> so we have to search the solution which get the biggest >> effect by the minimum cost. >> >> I think "restrict_post" is the answer. > > If you do this for all of the mailing lists then someone has to spend > their volunteer time wading through the blocked e-mails to send on > the ones which are valid. Currently every subscriber has to spend their time wading through the spam to pick up the ones which are not spam. (Of course it is dissipation of resources.) And ML archive (on the web) stores all spams automatically. what a kindness. When newbie wants to search some passed topic, they have to "wading through the spam" on the ML archive. e.g. http://home.jp.freebsd.org/cgi-bin/namazu.cgi?idxname=FreeBSD-users-jp >This means that someone new to FreeBSD > will likely have their questions lost because the e-mail will never > make it to the list (e.g. freebsd-questions) and would make it that > much harder for new people to get help getting started with FreeBSD. It is not difficult to subscribe ML even if they are new to FreeBSD. > Adding restrict_post actually is a lot of work on the admins since > someone has to handle all the bounced e-mails. I think we can simply ignore them (>/dev/null). If you have better idea to stop deliver spam, please let me know. #--# # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # #--# ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
On Nov 30, 2005, at 3:20 AM, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: The following reply was made to PR advocacy/89731; it has been noted by GNATS. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Takeo Hashimoto) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:12:09 +0900 Hi all. # Sorry from another 'from' address, # but I am the sender of advocacy/89731. On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:28:31 -0500 John Baldwin wrote: On Tuesday 29 November 2005 12:36 pm, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: Description: there are too many spams on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list. - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. - almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of community. - oldie does not think about mass happiness. - once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from archive. - waste network traffic and server resource. - distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer" Note that FreeBSD.org doesn't administer the services on jp.FreeBSD.org. Instead, jp.FreeBSD.org is delegated to a separate group that manages all of the resources for jp.FreeBSD.org including DNS, mailing lists, etc. You need to contact the folks there via [EMAIL PROTECTED] Note also that spam is an unfortunate reality and that there is only so much that a public mailing list run by volunteers in their spare time can do. -- I know that jp.FreeBSD.org is just one of sub domain of FreeBSD.org, and FreeBSD.org doesn't administer it, and FreeBSD.org doesn't have a fault about this. But spam damages FreeBSD own honor. I think that this is a whole FreeBSD problem, and I think that only FreeBSD.org can make jp.FreeBSD.org change. # so I did send-pr. Of course I know the admins of jp.freebsd.org are busy. I respect thier volunteer mind, but sorry to say, the way admin do it is arbitrary. I think transparency and democracy is necessary for a decision on will, like a core team. OK, we can protect our mailbox by some filter. but spam pollutes ML archive (on the web) and spammer can get more reachable addresses. That is not an individual problem. that is a matter of ML management policy. and it should be changed to get happiness of the majority. Admins are volunteer, and they don't have much time, so we have to search the solution which get the biggest effect by the minimum cost. I think "restrict_post" is the answer. If you do this for all of the mailing lists then someone has to spend their volunteer time wading through the blocked e-mails to send on the ones which are valid. This means that someone new to FreeBSD will likely have their questions lost because the e-mail will never make it to the list (e.g. freebsd-questions) and would make it that much harder for new people to get help getting started with FreeBSD. Adding restrict_post actually is a lot of work on the admins since someone has to handle all the bounced e-mails. -- John Baldwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
The following reply was made to PR advocacy/89731; it has been noted by GNATS. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Takeo Hashimoto) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:12:09 +0900 Hi all. # Sorry from another 'from' address, # but I am the sender of advocacy/89731. On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:28:31 -0500 John Baldwin wrote: >On Tuesday 29 November 2005 12:36 pm, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: >> >Description: >> >> there are too many spams on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list. >> - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. >> - almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of community. >> - oldie does not think about mass happiness. >> - once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from archive. >> - waste network traffic and server resource. >> - distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer" > >Note that FreeBSD.org doesn't administer the services on jp.FreeBSD.org. >Instead, jp.FreeBSD.org is delegated to a separate group that manages all of >the resources for jp.FreeBSD.org including DNS, mailing lists, etc. You need >to contact the folks there via [EMAIL PROTECTED] Note also that >spam is an unfortunate reality and that there is only so much that a public >mailing list run by volunteers in their spare time can do. > >-- I know that jp.FreeBSD.org is just one of sub domain of FreeBSD.org, and FreeBSD.org doesn't administer it, and FreeBSD.org doesn't have a fault about this. But spam damages FreeBSD own honor. I think that this is a whole FreeBSD problem, and I think that only FreeBSD.org can make jp.FreeBSD.org change. # so I did send-pr. Of course I know the admins of jp.freebsd.org are busy. I respect thier volunteer mind, but sorry to say, the way admin do it is arbitrary. I think transparency and democracy is necessary for a decision on will, like a core team. OK, we can protect our mailbox by some filter. but spam pollutes ML archive (on the web) and spammer can get more reachable addresses. That is not an individual problem. that is a matter of ML management policy. and it should be changed to get happiness of the majority. Admins are volunteer, and they don't have much time, so we have to search the solution which get the biggest effect by the minimum cost. I think "restrict_post" is the answer. #--# # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # #--# ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
Hi all. # Sorry from another 'from' address, # but I am the sender of advocacy/89731. On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:28:31 -0500 John Baldwin wrote: >On Tuesday 29 November 2005 12:36 pm, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: >> >Description: >> >> there are too many spams on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list. >> - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. >> - almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of community. >> - oldie does not think about mass happiness. >> - once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from archive. >> - waste network traffic and server resource. >> - distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer" > >Note that FreeBSD.org doesn't administer the services on jp.FreeBSD.org. >Instead, jp.FreeBSD.org is delegated to a separate group that manages all of >the resources for jp.FreeBSD.org including DNS, mailing lists, etc. You need >to contact the folks there via [EMAIL PROTECTED] Note also that >spam is an unfortunate reality and that there is only so much that a public >mailing list run by volunteers in their spare time can do. > >-- I know that jp.FreeBSD.org is just one of sub domain of FreeBSD.org, and FreeBSD.org doesn't administer it, and FreeBSD.org doesn't have a fault about this. But spam damages FreeBSD own honor. I think that this is a whole FreeBSD problem, and I think that only FreeBSD.org can make jp.FreeBSD.org change. # so I did send-pr. Of course I know the admins of jp.freebsd.org are busy. I respect thier volunteer mind, but sorry to say, the way admin do it is arbitrary. I think transparency and democracy is necessary for a decision on will, like a core team. OK, we can protect our mailbox by some filter. but spam pollutes ML archive (on the web) and spammer can get more reachable addresses. That is not an individual problem. that is a matter of ML management policy. and it should be changed to get happiness of the majority. Admins are volunteer, and they don't have much time, so we have to search the solution which get the biggest effect by the minimum cost. I think "restrict_post" is the answer. #--# # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # #--# ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
The following reply was made to PR advocacy/89731; it has been noted by GNATS. From: John Baldwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: Takeo Hashimoto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:28:31 -0500 On Tuesday 29 November 2005 12:36 pm, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > >Description: > > there are too many spams on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list. > - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. > - almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of community. > - oldie does not think about mass happiness. > - once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from archive. > - waste network traffic and server resource. > - distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer" Note that FreeBSD.org doesn't administer the services on jp.FreeBSD.org. Instead, jp.FreeBSD.org is delegated to a separate group that manages all of the resources for jp.FreeBSD.org including DNS, mailing lists, etc. You need to contact the folks there via [EMAIL PROTECTED] Note also that spam is an unfortunate reality and that there is only so much that a public mailing list run by volunteers in their spare time can do. -- John Baldwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list
On Tuesday 29 November 2005 12:36 pm, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > >Description: > > there are too many spams on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list. > - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. > - almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of community. > - oldie does not think about mass happiness. > - once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from archive. > - waste network traffic and server resource. > - distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer" Note that FreeBSD.org doesn't administer the services on jp.FreeBSD.org. Instead, jp.FreeBSD.org is delegated to a separate group that manages all of the resources for jp.FreeBSD.org including DNS, mailing lists, etc. You need to contact the folks there via [EMAIL PROTECTED] Note also that spam is an unfortunate reality and that there is only so much that a public mailing list run by volunteers in their spare time can do. -- John Baldwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
