Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-11-06 Thread Mark Linimon
On Sun, Nov 06, 2016 at 12:09:30PM +0100, Eivind Nicolay Evensen wrote:
> I also thought that perl was a good example of another piece of software
> that once was provided and no longer is.

Yes, that's true, but somewhat different.

perl was removed because keeping it became incompatible with the concept
of the -stable branches.  perl development was simply moving faster than
FreeBSD major releases, leading to FreeBSD having to keep maintaining an
obsolete piece of software far past the time upstream had dropped support
for it.

Of course this is a problem with any software that FreeBSD imports, but
IIUC this may have been the most painful case.  (I was just starting to
use FreeBSD at the time, so was really just an observer.)

mcl
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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-11-06 Thread Eivind Nicolay Evensen
On Sat, Nov 05, 2016 at 05:31:47PM -0400, Mark Heily wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 9:07 AM, Ronald Klop  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 03 Nov 2016 03:17:23 +0100, Julian Elischer 
> > wrote:
> >
> > On 26/10/2016 2:27 AM, Eivind Nicolay Evensen wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 03:38:04PM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote:
> >>>
>  hi,
> 
>  For long we are planning to remove GNU rcs from base, after a failed
>  attempt
>  before FreeBSD 10.0. Let see where we are to be able to remove it from
>  FreeBSD
>  12.
> 
> >>>
> >> why should we remove it?
> >>
> >
> It should be removed from base because the license was changed to GPLv3+
> about six years ago. The obsolete GPLv2 version currently in base is no
> longer maintained. I agree with the sentiment that RCS should be an
> optional component available from ports.

In my use of it, just plain keeping versions of files containing
only text in them, I haven't seen the need for a maintainer since
there has not been any problems. Is there a real problem I should be aware of?



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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-11-06 Thread Eivind Nicolay Evensen
On Sat, Nov 05, 2016 at 08:19:15PM -0500, Mark Linimon wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 10:17:23AM +0800, Julian Elischer wrote:
> > why should we remove it?
> 
> IIUC the plan for several years has been to remove all GPLed software
> from base.
> 
> But in any case the conversation is moot.  It was removed from head
> on 20161015 by bapt:
> 
>   https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=307351

It already being removed doesn't make me, and most likely nobody else
who also wanted it to stay, want it in base any less. Thanks though
for the headsup for us that doesn't use current.

> UPDATING contains notes about how to install it on your system.

Thanks for the tip, though I'll rather keep it in my own tree,
like I did with cvs when that was taken away.


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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-11-06 Thread Eivind Nicolay Evensen
On Sat, Nov 05, 2016 at 02:07:21PM +0100, Ronald Klop wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Nov 2016 03:17:23 +0100, Julian Elischer   
> wrote:
> 
> >On 26/10/2016 2:27 AM, Eivind Nicolay Evensen wrote:
> >>On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 03:38:04PM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote:
> >>>hi,
> >>>
> >>>For long we are planning to remove GNU rcs from base, after a failed  
> >>>attempt
> >>>before FreeBSD 10.0. Let see where we are to be able to remove it from  
> >>>FreeBSD
> >>>12.
> >
> >why should we remove it?
> >What will replace it?  it's an integral part of many people's systems.
> 
> Firefox/perl/java is also an integral part of many people's system. But it  
> is not in base.


I see a big difference between these two

First providing something people find useful enough that it affects their
decision about whether or not to use a system, then stopping providing it.

versus

Not including any and all available software packages.


I don't think I'm entirely along in that view.

I also thought that perl was a good example of another piece of software
that once was provided and no longer is.




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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-11-05 Thread Mark Linimon
On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 10:17:23AM +0800, Julian Elischer wrote:
> why should we remove it?

IIUC the plan for several years has been to remove all GPLed software
from base.

But in any case the conversation is moot.  It was removed from head
on 20161015 by bapt:

  https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=307351

UPDATING contains notes about how to install it on your system.

mcl
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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-11-05 Thread Mark Heily
On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 9:07 AM, Ronald Klop  wrote:

> On Thu, 03 Nov 2016 03:17:23 +0100, Julian Elischer 
> wrote:
>
> On 26/10/2016 2:27 AM, Eivind Nicolay Evensen wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 03:38:04PM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote:
>>>
 hi,

 For long we are planning to remove GNU rcs from base, after a failed
 attempt
 before FreeBSD 10.0. Let see where we are to be able to remove it from
 FreeBSD
 12.

>>>
>> why should we remove it?
>>
>
It should be removed from base because the license was changed to GPLv3+
about six years ago. The obsolete GPLv2 version currently in base is no
longer maintained. I agree with the sentiment that RCS should be an
optional component available from ports.
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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-11-05 Thread Ronald Klop
On Thu, 03 Nov 2016 03:17:23 +0100, Julian Elischer   
wrote:



On 26/10/2016 2:27 AM, Eivind Nicolay Evensen wrote:

On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 03:38:04PM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote:

hi,

For long we are planning to remove GNU rcs from base, after a failed  
attempt
before FreeBSD 10.0. Let see where we are to be able to remove it from  
FreeBSD

12.


why should we remove it?
What will replace it?  it's an integral part of many people's systems.


Firefox/perl/java is also an integral part of many people's system. But it  
is not in base.



Is there a non gnu RCS with the same features?


There is the exact same version in pkg/ports.

Ronald.





Whatever the outcome may be and for whatever my opinion is worth, I hope
rcs will stay in base. I don't care about the licensing. I don't
care if a switch to openrcs happens either, as long as it works.

For years, one has been able to rely upon this operating system having
certain pieces of software available. Losing that makes it a worse  
choice

than before.

I've already had to readd cvs to my freebsd tree since that was removed,
but if it keeps getting worse and worse and there's soon a
freebsd kernel and some random bits of freebsd userland available
through ports, there's not much reason to keep using it as an operating
system, because then it is not an operating system anymore, rather an
emulation of another "system" built around that concept.



Eivind N. E.
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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-11-03 Thread Pete Wright



On 11/03/2016 01:42, Julian Elischer wrote:

On 3/11/2016 10:45 AM, Pete Wright wrote:



On 11/02/2016 19:17, Julian Elischer wrote:

On 26/10/2016 2:27 AM, Eivind Nicolay Evensen wrote:

On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 03:38:04PM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote:

hi,

For long we are planning to remove GNU rcs from base, after a 
failed attempt
before FreeBSD 10.0. Let see where we are to be able to remove it 
from FreeBSD

12.


why should we remove it?
What will replace it?  it's an integral part of many people's systems.

Is there a non gnu RCS with the same features?



surprised to hear so many people are dependent upon having rcs in 
their base system.  there are options though - for example OpenBSD 
uses OpenRCS in their base:

I don't see what is surprising about it.
It's been common "best practice" for decades to keep all your files in 
/etc under source control. RCS fits he bill well and many people have 
it in their muscle memory.


heh - not trying to start a bike shed, and I certainly have used RCS in 
that manner in the past, although I supplanted it for a configuration 
management engine quite a while ago as the industry moved towards more 
distributed environments where systems automation became more practical.


regardless - sounds like people still using rcs should be able to kick 
the tires on OpenRCS and see if it fits their needs.


-pete
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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-11-03 Thread Julian Elischer

On 3/11/2016 10:45 AM, Pete Wright wrote:



On 11/02/2016 19:17, Julian Elischer wrote:

On 26/10/2016 2:27 AM, Eivind Nicolay Evensen wrote:

On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 03:38:04PM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote:

hi,

For long we are planning to remove GNU rcs from base, after a 
failed attempt
before FreeBSD 10.0. Let see where we are to be able to remove it 
from FreeBSD

12.


why should we remove it?
What will replace it?  it's an integral part of many people's systems.

Is there a non gnu RCS with the same features?



surprised to hear so many people are dependent upon having rcs in 
their base system.  there are options though - for example OpenBSD 
uses OpenRCS in their base:

I don't see what is surprising about it.
It's been common "best practice" for decades to keep all your files in 
/etc under source control. RCS fits he bill well and many people have 
it in their muscle memory.




http://man.openbsd.org/rcs.1

its not strictly GNU compliant as I believe it adheres to the 
original implementation (which frankly is probably a good thing 
imho).  GNU RCS is also available via ports/pkgs as well.


If people are adamant about preserving a rcs binary in base though 
this seems like a great opportunity to step up and help 
import/support OpenRCS.


that's ok by me as long as:
1/ it can continue to read all the old data
2/ it works the same (for scripts etc)



just my two bits - hope it helps.

-pete


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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-11-02 Thread Pete Wright



On 11/02/2016 19:17, Julian Elischer wrote:

On 26/10/2016 2:27 AM, Eivind Nicolay Evensen wrote:

On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 03:38:04PM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote:

hi,

For long we are planning to remove GNU rcs from base, after a failed 
attempt
before FreeBSD 10.0. Let see where we are to be able to remove it 
from FreeBSD

12.


why should we remove it?
What will replace it?  it's an integral part of many people's systems.

Is there a non gnu RCS with the same features?



surprised to hear so many people are dependent upon having rcs in their 
base system.  there are options though - for example OpenBSD uses 
OpenRCS in their base:


http://man.openbsd.org/rcs.1

its not strictly GNU compliant as I believe it adheres to the original 
implementation (which frankly is probably a good thing imho).  GNU RCS 
is also available via ports/pkgs as well.


If people are adamant about preserving a rcs binary in base though this 
seems like a great opportunity to step up and help import/support OpenRCS.


just my two bits - hope it helps.

-pete


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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-11-02 Thread Julian Elischer

On 26/10/2016 2:27 AM, Eivind Nicolay Evensen wrote:

On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 03:38:04PM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote:

hi,

For long we are planning to remove GNU rcs from base, after a failed attempt
before FreeBSD 10.0. Let see where we are to be able to remove it from FreeBSD
12.


why should we remove it?
What will replace it?  it's an integral part of many people's systems.

Is there a non gnu RCS with the same features?


Whatever the outcome may be and for whatever my opinion is worth, I hope
rcs will stay in base. I don't care about the licensing. I don't
care if a switch to openrcs happens either, as long as it works.

For years, one has been able to rely upon this operating system having
certain pieces of software available. Losing that makes it a worse choice
than before.

I've already had to readd cvs to my freebsd tree since that was removed,
but if it keeps getting worse and worse and there's soon a
freebsd kernel and some random bits of freebsd userland available
through ports, there's not much reason to keep using it as an operating
system, because then it is not an operating system anymore, rather an
emulation of another "system" built around that concept.



Eivind N. E.
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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-10-25 Thread Eivind Nicolay Evensen
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 03:38:04PM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote:
> hi,
> 
> For long we are planning to remove GNU rcs from base, after a failed attempt
> before FreeBSD 10.0. Let see where we are to be able to remove it from FreeBSD
> 12.

Whatever the outcome may be and for whatever my opinion is worth, I hope
rcs will stay in base. I don't care about the licensing. I don't
care if a switch to openrcs happens either, as long as it works.

For years, one has been able to rely upon this operating system having
certain pieces of software available. Losing that makes it a worse choice
than before.

I've already had to readd cvs to my freebsd tree since that was removed,
but if it keeps getting worse and worse and there's soon a
freebsd kernel and some random bits of freebsd userland available
through ports, there's not much reason to keep using it as an operating
system, because then it is not an operating system anymore, rather an
emulation of another "system" built around that concept.



Eivind N. E.
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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-09-12 Thread Alfred Perlstein



On 9/11/16 6:38 AM, Baptiste Daroussin wrote:

hi,

For long we are planning to remove GNU rcs from base, after a failed attempt
before FreeBSD 10.0. Let see where we are to be able to remove it from FreeBSD
12.

GNU rcs is a GPLv2 software with newer version being GPLv3 preventing any
updates/fixes.

 From previous discussions there were issues that has been raised in previous
attempts:
- ident(1) is still useful given we still have Keywords in our sources. It has
   been replaced by a BSD Licensed version (enhanced to improve compatibility
   with Subversion Keyword) for FreeBSD 11. So that tool will remain in base
   after removal of GNU rcs.
- etc-update uses merge(1) from GNU rcs, this has been changed in head to use
   diff3 instead.
- rc.subr allows to use rcs for the backup file functionality. This
   functionality is off by default as such I plan to make a warning if rcs is 
not
   installed and recommand to install rcs from base (or if noone claim using the
   feature I will just remove the functionality and only keep the default
   behaviour aka keep one backup copy).
- people uses rcs to handle configuration files in /etc for example. for those
   multiple compatible alternatives are available in ports:
   * rcs57: a copy of the latest version of GNU rcs in base before removal
 (GPLv2)
   * rcs: latest GNU rcs version (GPLv3)

I haven't gone the direction of importing OpenRCS (BSD licensed version from
OpenBSD) as it needs way more work to be 100% compatible with latest version of
GNU rcs.

How to proceed:
- First turn off GNU rcs by default for a couple of month.
- Totally remove GNU rcs if no blockers has been raised.

Best regards,
Bapt

\o/

-Alfred
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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-09-11 Thread Baptiste Daroussin
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 10:17:26AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 7:38 AM, Baptiste Daroussin  wrote:
> > hi,
> >
> > For long we are planning to remove GNU rcs from base, after a failed attempt
> > before FreeBSD 10.0. Let see where we are to be able to remove it from 
> > FreeBSD
> > 12.
> >
> > GNU rcs is a GPLv2 software with newer version being GPLv3 preventing any
> > updates/fixes.
> >
> > From previous discussions there were issues that has been raised in previous
> > attempts:
> > - ident(1) is still useful given we still have Keywords in our sources. It 
> > has
> >   been replaced by a BSD Licensed version (enhanced to improve compatibility
> >   with Subversion Keyword) for FreeBSD 11. So that tool will remain in base
> >   after removal of GNU rcs.
> 
> So no affect.
> 
> > - etc-update uses merge(1) from GNU rcs, this has been changed in head to 
> > use
> >   diff3 instead.
> 
> Also no effect. Is our diff3 still the gpl'd one, or has bsd-diff
> finally grown that functionality?

Not yet bsd diff and bsd diff3 are very far from mature, however the sdiff(1)
part has landed as I have finished it. I still have plans for other diff
components.

Best regards,
Bapt


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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-09-11 Thread Warner Losh
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 7:38 AM, Baptiste Daroussin  wrote:
> hi,
>
> For long we are planning to remove GNU rcs from base, after a failed attempt
> before FreeBSD 10.0. Let see where we are to be able to remove it from FreeBSD
> 12.
>
> GNU rcs is a GPLv2 software with newer version being GPLv3 preventing any
> updates/fixes.
>
> From previous discussions there were issues that has been raised in previous
> attempts:
> - ident(1) is still useful given we still have Keywords in our sources. It has
>   been replaced by a BSD Licensed version (enhanced to improve compatibility
>   with Subversion Keyword) for FreeBSD 11. So that tool will remain in base
>   after removal of GNU rcs.

So no affect.

> - etc-update uses merge(1) from GNU rcs, this has been changed in head to use
>   diff3 instead.

Also no effect. Is our diff3 still the gpl'd one, or has bsd-diff
finally grown that functionality?

> - rc.subr allows to use rcs for the backup file functionality. This
>   functionality is off by default as such I plan to make a warning if rcs is 
> not
>   installed and recommand to install rcs from base (or if noone claim using 
> the
>   feature I will just remove the functionality and only keep the default
>   behaviour aka keep one backup copy).

Works for me. I didn't even know this existed. From mall evidence I
can find, it looks like I stopped using RCS entirely in about 1999,
and that's 5 years after I moved to CVS for most things.

> - people uses rcs to handle configuration files in /etc for example. for those
>   multiple compatible alternatives are available in ports:
>   * rcs57: a copy of the latest version of GNU rcs in base before removal
> (GPLv2)
>   * rcs: latest GNU rcs version (GPLv3)

This is in line with what we've told people in the past. If I want to
play rogue, I have to install a port...

> I haven't gone the direction of importing OpenRCS (BSD licensed version from
> OpenBSD) as it needs way more work to be 100% compatible with latest version 
> of
> GNU rcs.

If people want it, they can make it a port...

> How to proceed:
> - First turn off GNU rcs by default for a couple of month.
> - Totally remove GNU rcs if no blockers has been raised.

Works for me.

Warner
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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-09-11 Thread Pedro Giffuni

+1 to removing GNU RCS.

FWIW;

I did bring OpenRCS to the vendor area:

https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/vendor/OpenBSD/dist/usr.bin/rcs/

And I have a patch so that it builds on FreeBSD:

https://people.freebsd.org/~pfg/patches/openrcs.diff

It is known to NOT pass the GNU RCS testsuite and I lost interest in it.

Pedro.

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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-09-11 Thread David Wolfskill
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 03:38:04PM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote:
> ...
> For long we are planning to remove GNU rcs from base, after a failed attempt
> before FreeBSD 10.0. Let see where we are to be able to remove it from FreeBSD
> 12.
> 
> GNU rcs is a GPLv2 software with newer version being GPLv3 preventing any
> updates/fixes.

Err... yeah. :-/  I was using RCS before it was GPLed :-(

> From previous discussions there were issues that has been raised in previous
> attempts:
> ...
> - people uses rcs to handle configuration files in /etc for example. for those
>   multiple compatible alternatives are available in ports:
>   * rcs57: a copy of the latest version of GNU rcs in base before removal
> (GPLv2)
>   * rcs: latest GNU rcs version (GPLv3)

Right; I'm one of those (folks who use RCS for local config files and
the like).  As well as Web pages, xfig files

> I haven't gone the direction of importing OpenRCS (BSD licensed version from
> OpenBSD) as it needs way more work to be 100% compatible with latest version 
> of
> GNU rcs.

Hmm  If there were a FreeBSD port for OpenRCS, I'd be interested in
poking at it  I'm not even at all sure that I need "100%
compatib[ility]" with any version of a GPLed RCS.  (Indeed; I may not
*want* such compatibility)

> How to proceed:
> - First turn off GNU rcs by default for a couple of month.
> - Totally remove GNU rcs if no blockers has been raised.
> 

OK; warning received. :-}  Thanks

Peace,
david
-- 
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Those who would murder in the name of God or prophet are blasphemous cowards.

See http://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key.


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Re: [RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-09-11 Thread Baptiste Daroussin
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 03:38:04PM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote:
> hi,
> 
> For long we are planning to remove GNU rcs from base, after a failed attempt
> before FreeBSD 10.0. Let see where we are to be able to remove it from FreeBSD
> 12.
> 
> GNU rcs is a GPLv2 software with newer version being GPLv3 preventing any
> updates/fixes.
> 
> From previous discussions there were issues that has been raised in previous
> attempts:
> - ident(1) is still useful given we still have Keywords in our sources. It has
>   been replaced by a BSD Licensed version (enhanced to improve compatibility
>   with Subversion Keyword) for FreeBSD 11. So that tool will remain in base
>   after removal of GNU rcs.
> - etc-update uses merge(1) from GNU rcs, this has been changed in head to use
>   diff3 instead.
> - rc.subr allows to use rcs for the backup file functionality. This
>   functionality is off by default as such I plan to make a warning if rcs is 
> not
>   installed and recommand to install rcs from base (or if noone claim using 
> the
>   feature I will just remove the functionality and only keep the default
>   behaviour aka keep one backup copy).
> - people uses rcs to handle configuration files in /etc for example. for those
>   multiple compatible alternatives are available in ports:
>   * rcs57: a copy of the latest version of GNU rcs in base before removal
> (GPLv2)
>   * rcs: latest GNU rcs version (GPLv3)
> 
> I haven't gone the direction of importing OpenRCS (BSD licensed version from
> OpenBSD) as it needs way more work to be 100% compatible with latest version 
> of
> GNU rcs.
> 
> How to proceed:
> - First turn off GNU rcs by default for a couple of month.
> - Totally remove GNU rcs if no blockers has been raised.
> 
> Best regards,
> Bapt

I forgot to say freebsd-update uses merge(1) and which I will replaced with
diff3(1).

Best regards,
Bapt


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[RFC] remove GNU rcs from FreeBSD 12

2016-09-11 Thread Baptiste Daroussin
hi,

For long we are planning to remove GNU rcs from base, after a failed attempt
before FreeBSD 10.0. Let see where we are to be able to remove it from FreeBSD
12.

GNU rcs is a GPLv2 software with newer version being GPLv3 preventing any
updates/fixes.

From previous discussions there were issues that has been raised in previous
attempts:
- ident(1) is still useful given we still have Keywords in our sources. It has
  been replaced by a BSD Licensed version (enhanced to improve compatibility
  with Subversion Keyword) for FreeBSD 11. So that tool will remain in base
  after removal of GNU rcs.
- etc-update uses merge(1) from GNU rcs, this has been changed in head to use
  diff3 instead.
- rc.subr allows to use rcs for the backup file functionality. This
  functionality is off by default as such I plan to make a warning if rcs is not
  installed and recommand to install rcs from base (or if noone claim using the
  feature I will just remove the functionality and only keep the default
  behaviour aka keep one backup copy).
- people uses rcs to handle configuration files in /etc for example. for those
  multiple compatible alternatives are available in ports:
  * rcs57: a copy of the latest version of GNU rcs in base before removal
(GPLv2)
  * rcs: latest GNU rcs version (GPLv3)

I haven't gone the direction of importing OpenRCS (BSD licensed version from
OpenBSD) as it needs way more work to be 100% compatible with latest version of
GNU rcs.

How to proceed:
- First turn off GNU rcs by default for a couple of month.
- Totally remove GNU rcs if no blockers has been raised.

Best regards,
Bapt


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