Re: Core: Yes please, Code of Conduct committee: No Thanks.
> http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/israel/ Usual anti-semitic rant, nothing special. Arrogant, ignorant, hateful, bad grammar. I've seen too much of this stuff in the UK lately. The only thing missing is "some of my best friends are jews". In some EU countries anti-semitic speech is a crime, e.g. UK or Germany. Perhaps not in the country where the author resides. Still he might want to check the international definition of anti-semitism: https://antisemitism.uk/definition/ to see examples very similar to what he has written. As far as the project is concerned - unless there is "official" endorsement of the author's views (whatever that means for a open source project), I guess it's just another individual with his anti-semitic views. Anton Shterenlikht ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Core: Yes please, Code of Conduct committee: No Thanks.
On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 2:28 PM Dima Pasechnik
wrote:
> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 3:25 PM Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> >
> > FreeBSD Core Team Secretary wrote:
> > > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made
> > > on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the Code of
> > > Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide
> > > what action to take. Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation
> > > would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent
> > > neither the Project nor the Foundation.
> >
> > Core@ statements always welcome.
> >
> > But Code of Conduct committee merit no automatic credence since:
> >
> > Code of Conduct aims were cloned from an ultra feminist group of
> > non FreeBSD members, part paid by foundation, then shoved on
> > FreeBSD before discussion, by a voluble few in FreeBSD
>
> The present matter has nothing to do with feminism.
I don't see who states that.
Anyway, as someone
> who has been chased upon by a gang of youths screaming "zhidovskaya
> morda" ("Jewish snout") (Moscow, USSR, circa 1975, tough
> neighbourhood, and well, I have a Jewish grandmother) I absolutely do
> not appreciate the sort of thoughtless "freedom of speech" blah blah,
> as far as expressions of hate towards particular ethnic groups are .
>
Just wondering how old were you and "haters" were. In my childhood I was
laughed on because having too big ears, another girl - because she was fat,
and another guy - because his dad was an alcoholic. I'd argue that being
bulled by "jewish snout" words instead of "fatty" puts you in some special
position amongst these people and me.
Yes, the phenomenom is bad in its nature, but it is also so common and
insignificant, that IMO it doesn't serve all that fuss.
Because they always incite violence.
> And yes, in USSR persons with ethnically Jewish parents had "Jew"
> written in their internal IDs (just like in Nazi Germany). Under this
> commonly accepted definition, saying "I hate Jews", as Mr. Kamp did on
> twitter, is full-blown racism,
I'd like to hear how it is "commonly accepted". I don't remember accepting
anything related.
and Mr. Kamp ought to offer an apology
> for this - while he does not do it in
> http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/israel/
>
> While in some jurisdictions hate speech is legally protected, it does
> not take away the hate in hate speech, and people generally don't like
> being hated. Hate originating from a freebsd.* domain is not good for
> the project.
>
freebsd.* domain can be registered by any individual, so hate originating
from such domains can't (well, shouldn't) affect the project in any way.
On the contrary, hate originating from *.freebsd.org, it does affect the
project. Luckily, this is not the case.
> Let me point few things in the latter:
>
> * there is nothing like "the jewish religion" - there is a religion
> called Judaism, as Mr. Kamp ought to understand before
> making statements on these. Everyone can convert to Judaism, by the way.
>
Thanks for valuable information. It is completely off-topic and I doubt
anyone here have any interest in this.
> * Jews who are not Israeli citizens are about as responsible for
> policies of Israel as descendants of Vikings areresponsible for
> policies of Scandinavian states of today.
>
> * I don't know anything about the legal status of the domain
> "freebsd.dk" --- nevertheless I don't think it does do much good to
> the reputation of FreeBSD to have these slightly illiterate writings
> there (although it might be bringing Mr.Kamp lucrative contracts from
> such pillars of democracy and free thought and speech as Saudi Arabia,
> Syria, and Iran :-))
>
> Best,
> Dima
> http://users.ox.ac.uk/~coml0531/
>
>
>
>
> >
> > The new CoC terms were hotly disputed. core@ failed to remove it
> > before many tuned out, despairing of the politics [& lack of core@
> > backbone, probably themselves scared of being labeled anti-whatever],
> >
> > New CoC putch-ists took seats on CoC
> >
> > FreeBSD had a CoC before the putch with the new feminist etc CoC.
> > https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html
> > CoC could be replaced with the old one from SVN, or from
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Julian
> > --
> > Julian Stacey, Consultant Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich
> Aachen Kent
> > http://stolenvotes.uk Brexit ref. stole votes from 700,000 Brits in
> EU.
> > Lies bought; Groups fined; 1.9 M young had no vote, 1.3 M old leavers
> died.
> > ___
> > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
> > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "
> freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
> ___
> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/ma
Re: Core: Yes please, Code of Conduct committee: No Thanks.
On Tue, 21 May 2019 at 11:30, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
> Anyway, as someone
> who has been chased upon by a gang of youths screaming "zhidovskaya
> morda" ("Jewish snout") (Moscow, USSR, circa 1975, tough
> neighbourhood, and well, I have a Jewish grandmother)
You're conflating freedom of expression with wanton action of agression
> I absolutely do
> not appreciate the sort of thoughtless "freedom of speech" blah blah,
> as far as expressions of hate towards particular ethnic groups are .
Luckily most societies have more wisdom than you and elect to have
free and open discussion and chose to not oppress.
> Because they always incite violence.
That is a gross overgeneralisation with absolutely zero foundation. If
you say that PHK's expression was hate towards one specific group, and
you assert that that "always" incites violence, what violence followed
PHK's expression? Either show demonstrable violence or your statement
falls flat on its face.
> And yes, in USSR persons with ethnically Jewish parents had "Jew"
> written in their internal IDs (just like in Nazi Germany).
I lived in the USSR, my parents lived in the USSR, my grandparents
lived in the USSR and I don't recall anything of the sort, nor do I
recall a huge jewish population of Odessa, for example, even bringing
this up as an issue during Perestroyka or post break up. Or do you
mean that the USSR passports identified *ethnicity* of the bearer,
like Pole, Ukrainian, Uzbek, Moldav, Jew?.. I think you're taking
things hugely out of context and trying to make something out of
nothing, because if inserting one's ethnicity into a passport or any
state-issued ID is "an act of hate" as you seem to assert, then my UK
driving licence, and by implication the UK Government, is full of
"hate speech"!
> Under this
> commonly accepted definition, saying "I hate Jews", as Mr. Kamp did on
> twitter, is full-blown racism, and Mr. Kamp ought to offer an apology
> for this - while he does not do it in
> http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/israel/
I love when people find a text, then select words from it choosing to
omit the rest! Here's how freedom of expression works: A makes a
reasoned expression of opinion/view. B might not like the conclusion
or premise. Any person of reasonably intelligence can (a) ignore A
altogether; (b) engage in a discussion with A (quite frankly PKH's
expression is fully argued, as in he gives his reasons) to change his
mind by counter-arguments; a person without any argument usually
claims some nonsense to get some liberal snowflakes on their side and
try to silence the different view using "megaphone diplomacy."
For what it's worth, I actually read all the statements made by PHK
and there is no incitement of violence or anything of the sort, all he
said was X because of Y. I think his reasoning is a bit stretched and
if one were really interested in what he was saying instead of
obsessively crucifying him, one could change his mind. Hint: that's
the whole premise of "freedom of expression"---someone says something
unpalatable, you engage, you could change their mind, they could
change your mind, or you could agree to disagree... Yet we seem to be
going the way of Romans at best, and some already lining up for a
tameshigiri.
> While in some jurisdictions hate speech is legally protected, it does
> not take away the hate in hate speech, and people generally don't like
> being hated. Hate originating from a freebsd.* domain is not good for
> the project.
Perhaps you could show concrete examples of such "hate" from that
specific domain, I seem to struggle to find any.
> Let me point few things in the latter:
>
> * there is nothing like "the jewish religion" - there is a religion
> called Judaism, as Mr. Kamp ought to understand before
> making statements on these. Everyone can convert to Judaism, by the way.
>
> * Jews who are not Israeli citizens are about as responsible for
> policies of Israel as descendants of Vikings areresponsible for
> policies of Scandinavian states of today.
Oh look, you're perfectly capable of engaging in a reasoned argument
(and these two are a number of reasons why I though his reasoning was
"a bit stretched")! You make good and valid points, so engage, and
change his mind!
--
Igor M.
___
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Re: Core: Yes please, Code of Conduct committee: No Thanks.
On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:47 AM Gleb Popov wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 2:28 PM Dima Pasechnik
> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 3:25 PM Julian H. Stacey wrote:
>> >
>> > FreeBSD Core Team Secretary wrote:
>> > > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made
>> > > on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the Code of
>> > > Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide
>> > > what action to take. Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation
>> > > would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent
>> > > neither the Project nor the Foundation.
>> >
>> > Core@ statements always welcome.
>> >
>> > But Code of Conduct committee merit no automatic credence since:
>> >
>> > Code of Conduct aims were cloned from an ultra feminist group of
>> > non FreeBSD members, part paid by foundation, then shoved on
>> > FreeBSD before discussion, by a voluble few in FreeBSD
>>
>> The present matter has nothing to do with feminism.
>
>
> I don't see who states that.
>
>> Anyway, as someone
>> who has been chased upon by a gang of youths screaming "zhidovskaya
>> morda" ("Jewish snout") (Moscow, USSR, circa 1975, tough
>> neighbourhood, and well, I have a Jewish grandmother) I absolutely do
>> not appreciate the sort of thoughtless "freedom of speech" blah blah,
>> as far as expressions of hate towards particular ethnic groups are .
>
>
> Just wondering how old were you and "haters" were. In my childhood I was
> laughed on because having too big ears, another girl - because she was fat,
> and another guy - because his dad was an alcoholic. I'd argue that being
> bulled by "jewish snout" words instead of "fatty" puts you in some special
> position amongst these people and me.
> Yes, the phenomenom is bad in its nature, but it is also so common and
> insignificant, that IMO it doesn't serve all that fuss.
My CV may be found online at the link after the signature - I am 56
y.o., and I did experience a fair share of state-amplified and
condoned antisemitism back in USSR (apart from this incident). There
was no state-condoned hate of people with big ears or excessive
weight, and this does make quite some difference.
As to "it is also so common" --- this is the 1st time in more than 27
years, since I left Moscow, that this topic interferes with my
work. While it might be "so common" to you, it does not remove the
hate from the hate speech it is.
>
>> Because they always incite violence.
>> And yes, in USSR persons with ethnically Jewish parents had "Jew"
>> written in their internal IDs (just like in Nazi Germany). Under this
>> commonly accepted definition, saying "I hate Jews", as Mr. Kamp did on
>> twitter, is full-blown racism,
>
>
> I'd like to hear how it is "commonly accepted". I don't remember accepting
> anything related.
Are you trying to tell us that "5th paragraph", ethnicity, never was
present in internal USSR passports?
Of course it was, and on the basis of this I dare to say that my
definition was commonly accepted in the USSR.
And in present days Europe "jew" need not refer to a religious affiliation.
(about 40% of Israeli citizens describe themselves as secular, by the way).
>
>> and Mr. Kamp ought to offer an apology
>> for this - while he does not do it in
>> http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/israel/
>>
>> While in some jurisdictions hate speech is legally protected, it does
>> not take away the hate in hate speech, and people generally don't like
>> being hated. Hate originating from a freebsd.* domain is not good for
>> the project.
>
>
> freebsd.* domain can be registered by any individual, so hate originating
> from such domains can't (well, shouldn't) affect the project in any way.
> On the contrary, hate originating from *.freebsd.org, it does affect the
> project. Luckily, this is not the case.
>
>>
>> Let me point few things in the latter:
>>
>> * there is nothing like "the jewish religion" - there is a religion
>> called Judaism, as Mr. Kamp ought to understand before
>> making statements on these. Everyone can convert to Judaism, by the way.
>
>
> Thanks for valuable information. It is completely off-topic and I doubt
> anyone here have any interest in this.
As Mr. Kamp's blog post is being discussed here, I felt it might be
appropriate to point out why it was an attempt
to whitewash hate speech, rather than an explanation of an innocent
misunderstanding.
Regards,
Dima
>
>>
>> * Jews who are not Israeli citizens are about as responsible for
>> policies of Israel as descendants of Vikings areresponsible for
>> policies of Scandinavian states of today.
>>
>> * I don't know anything about the legal status of the domain
>> "freebsd.dk" --- nevertheless I don't think it does do much good to
>> the reputation of FreeBSD to have these slightly illiterate writings
>> there (although it might be bringing Mr.Kamp lucrative contracts from
>> such pillars of democracy and free thought and
Re: Core: Yes please, Code of Conduct committee: No Thanks.
On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 3:25 PM Julian H. Stacey wrote:
>
> FreeBSD Core Team Secretary wrote:
> > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made
> > on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the Code of
> > Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide
> > what action to take. Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation
> > would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent
> > neither the Project nor the Foundation.
>
> Core@ statements always welcome.
>
> But Code of Conduct committee merit no automatic credence since:
>
> Code of Conduct aims were cloned from an ultra feminist group of
> non FreeBSD members, part paid by foundation, then shoved on
> FreeBSD before discussion, by a voluble few in FreeBSD
The present matter has nothing to do with feminism. Anyway, as someone
who has been chased upon by a gang of youths screaming "zhidovskaya
morda" ("Jewish snout") (Moscow, USSR, circa 1975, tough
neighbourhood, and well, I have a Jewish grandmother) I absolutely do
not appreciate the sort of thoughtless "freedom of speech" blah blah,
as far as expressions of hate towards particular ethnic groups are .
Because they always incite violence.
And yes, in USSR persons with ethnically Jewish parents had "Jew"
written in their internal IDs (just like in Nazi Germany). Under this
commonly accepted definition, saying "I hate Jews", as Mr. Kamp did on
twitter, is full-blown racism, and Mr. Kamp ought to offer an apology
for this - while he does not do it in
http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/israel/
While in some jurisdictions hate speech is legally protected, it does
not take away the hate in hate speech, and people generally don't like
being hated. Hate originating from a freebsd.* domain is not good for
the project.
Let me point few things in the latter:
* there is nothing like "the jewish religion" - there is a religion
called Judaism, as Mr. Kamp ought to understand before
making statements on these. Everyone can convert to Judaism, by the way.
* Jews who are not Israeli citizens are about as responsible for
policies of Israel as descendants of Vikings areresponsible for
policies of Scandinavian states of today.
* I don't know anything about the legal status of the domain
"freebsd.dk" --- nevertheless I don't think it does do much good to
the reputation of FreeBSD to have these slightly illiterate writings
there (although it might be bringing Mr.Kamp lucrative contracts from
such pillars of democracy and free thought and speech as Saudi Arabia,
Syria, and Iran :-))
Best,
Dima
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~coml0531/
>
> The new CoC terms were hotly disputed. core@ failed to remove it
> before many tuned out, despairing of the politics [& lack of core@
> backbone, probably themselves scared of being labeled anti-whatever],
>
> New CoC putch-ists took seats on CoC
>
> FreeBSD had a CoC before the putch with the new feminist etc CoC.
> https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html
> CoC could be replaced with the old one from SVN, or from
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html
>
> Cheers,
> Julian
> --
> Julian Stacey, Consultant Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Aachen Kent
> http://stolenvotes.uk Brexit ref. stole votes from 700,000 Brits in EU.
> Lies bought; Groups fined; 1.9 M young had no vote, 1.3 M old leavers died.
> ___
> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
___
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Core: Yes please, Code of Conduct committee: No Thanks.
FreeBSD Core Team Secretary wrote: > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made > on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the Code of > Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide > what action to take. Both the Core Team and the FreeBSD Foundation > would like to make it clear that views shared by individuals represent > neither the Project nor the Foundation. Core@ statements always welcome. But Code of Conduct committee merit no automatic credence since: Code of Conduct aims were cloned from an ultra feminist group of non FreeBSD members, part paid by foundation, then shoved on FreeBSD before discussion, by a voluble few in FreeBSD The new CoC terms were hotly disputed. core@ failed to remove it before many tuned out, despairing of the politics [& lack of core@ backbone, probably themselves scared of being labeled anti-whatever], New CoC putch-ists took seats on CoC FreeBSD had a CoC before the putch with the new feminist etc CoC. https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html CoC could be replaced with the old one from SVN, or from https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Consultant Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Aachen Kent http://stolenvotes.uk Brexit ref. stole votes from 700,000 Brits in EU. Lies bought; Groups fined; 1.9 M young had no vote, 1.3 M old leavers died. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
