Re: drm-next update and longer term plans
Hi, The challenge right now is figuring out how to implement / commit the linux-y bits that the linux layer really wants. Kip has done a pretty great job at figuring out the minimum set of hilarity that needs to go into base versus linuxkpi. But the "challenge" is figuring out some comprimise between what's done and what we can do in FreeBSD land. Those changes are small but unfortunately change the expectations we have. If someone's willing to step up and help out with the linuxkpi side of things and the base system bits (the new lock, some UMA changes, some VM changes, the interrupt model that we have versus linux and what we're allowed to do, etc, etc) then that'll really help. I can help try to get stuff reviewed and help people know where some of the quirky controversial bits are, but I don't have the cycles to modify/rewrite any of it all to land in -HEAD. I need some help with that. If you're interested in helping out and can take some direction then sign up and we'll figure the bits out. Thanks! -adrian ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: drm-next update and longer term plans
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Matthew Macy wrote: > I imagine that for most users the state of graphics support for > post-Haswell hardware is a bit of a black box so I'm sending out this note > to let users know what they can and cannot expect. > > Wayland has actually become a reality for some. Talk to Johannes Lundberg > if you're interested in tracking that. > > The i915 (Intel integrated GPUs) driver is currently best supported by the > drm-next-4.7 branch. Broadwell and Skylake support is complete and some > support came in late in the cycle for Kaby Lake. I can still consistently > lock up the kernel in the later stages of the piglit test suite, there is > no backlight support, and suspend/resume do not work on Skylake. The > drm-next branch is integrated with upstream up through Linux 4.8-rc5 and > thus has complete support for Kaby Lake, but there is a lockup in i915 that > occurs some time within an hour of startx. This takes too long for it to > have shown up in my limited integration smoke testing. > > The amdgpu driver is, in terms of KPI dependencies - as far as I can tell > - a strict superset of the radeon driver. For example, when I tested my one > older card that uses the radeon driver it manifested the same ttm bugs as > amdgpu did at that time. Thus, when amdgpu reaches a complete working state > I expect radeon to largely "just" work. As of this past Sunday amdgpu with > the amdgpu DDX works with 2D, supports external monitors - selecting the > appropriate resolution on a per display basis, and backlight works. It will > also typically panic in ttm within ~90 minutes of startx. Although this is > huge progress over panicking within 30s of startx (which was the case as of > Saturday) or not starting at all due to bugs in the libdrm port a few weeks > prior, it's obviously not something I encourage anyone to use. > > My primary motivation for starting with the work is being able to to train > DNNs/RNNs and other model types using Theano/Caffe/Tensorflow/BidMach etc > GPU accelerated whilst still running FreeBSD. The Radeon Open Compute stack > holds out the promise of doing that without using the closed source CUDA > stack on top of the Linux ABI emulation - which would inevitably be opaque > and fragile. My plan is to keep on fixing bugs and tracking upstream until > the first long term branch after ROC support has been integrated in to > Linux mainline. I have no exact knowledge of when exactly that will be (AMD > doesn't have sufficient developer resources to make any concrete > guarantees) but think it should happen by the summer of 2017. I would like > to think that by that time the i915, amdgpu, and radeon will be feature > complete and at least as stable as the drm2 support currently in tree. > > I need to weigh my soft commitment to make long-term DRM support happen > with paid work and other activities which are much more important to me > long term. Thus I've currently committed to spending every Sunday fixing > bugs in the drm-next branches. Amdgpu is both more important to me and has > gotten much less attention than i915. Thus I will be devoting my efforts to > it in the near term. I'd very much welcome efforts by others to triage the > issues in i915. > > Many people ask when drm-next will be available on 11. I am not a > committer and thus have no direct say in that. However, if you are a > motivated individual with kernel knowledge you should contact Adrian Chadd. > There are a few places where I was not able to provide proper linuxkpi > semantics without making (mostly quite modest) changes to sys/kern. There > is a general reluctance by some core developers to make changes to > accommodate Linux. It is possible that, with additional effort, the > linuxkpi can both be complete enough to avoid needing to port the graphics > drivers to FreeBSD (something clearly shown by past efforts to be > unsustainable) and not need to make any kernel changes. If you would like > to help with that, let Adrian know. In the meantime, TrueOS will continue > to use my development branches for the benefit of users with newer hardware. > > -M > Matt, Thanks for your and your teams work on this. While I am still running on Sandy Bridge hardware, I am hoping that my next system will be able to run real X or Wayland without being stuck with VESA formonths, as I was when my Sandy Bridge system was new. While I understand that this is really a by-product of you goal, thanks for it. I really hope that Core understands that unless FreeBSD can run drivers developed for Linux or required only trivial patches, FreeBSD will always lag at least months and probably years behind for both graphics and GPU compute. While Linux does compete with FreeBSD, it is not an enemy. It is fellow traveler and, when there is no legal reason that Linux code support can't be accommodated, it should not be dismissed. -- Kevin Oberman, Part time kid herder and retired Network Engineer E-mail: rkober...@gmail.com PGP
Re: drm-next update and longer term plans
On Fri., 2 Dec. 2016 at 6:25 am, Matthew Macy wrote: > I imagine that for most users the state of graphics support for > post-Haswell hardware is a bit of a black box so I'm sending out this note > to let users know what they can and cannot expect. > > Wayland has actually become a reality for some. Talk to Johannes Lundberg > if you're interested in tracking that. > > The i915 (Intel integrated GPUs) driver is currently best supported by the > drm-next-4.7 branch. Broadwell and Skylake support is complete and some > support came in late in the cycle for Kaby Lake. I can still consistently > lock up the kernel in the later stages of the piglit test suite, there is > no backlight support, and suspend/resume do not work on Skylake. The > drm-next branch is integrated with upstream up through Linux 4.8-rc5 and > thus has complete support for Kaby Lake, but there is a lockup in i915 that > occurs some time within an hour of startx. This takes too long for it to > have shown up in my limited integration smoke testing. > > The amdgpu driver is, in terms of KPI dependencies - as far as I can tell > - a strict superset of the radeon driver. For example, when I tested my one > older card that uses the radeon driver it manifested the same ttm bugs as > amdgpu did at that time. Thus, when amdgpu reaches a complete working state > I expect radeon to largely "just" work. As of this past Sunday amdgpu with > the amdgpu DDX works with 2D, supports external monitors - selecting the > appropriate resolution on a per display basis, and backlight works. It will > also typically panic in ttm within ~90 minutes of startx. Although this is > huge progress over panicking within 30s of startx (which was the case as of > Saturday) or not starting at all due to bugs in the libdrm port a few weeks > prior, it's obviously not something I encourage anyone to use. > > My primary motivation for starting with the work is being able to to train > DNNs/RNNs and other model types using Theano/Caffe/Tensorflow/BidMach etc > GPU accelerated whilst still running FreeBSD. The Radeon Open Compute stack > holds out the promise of doing that without using the closed source CUDA > stack on top of the Linux ABI emulation - which would inevitably be opaque > and fragile. My plan is to keep on fixing bugs and tracking upstream until > the first long term branch after ROC support has been integrated in to > Linux mainline. I have no exact knowledge of when exactly that will be (AMD > doesn't have sufficient developer resources to make any concrete > guarantees) but think it should happen by the summer of 2017. I would like > to think that by that time the i915, amdgpu, and radeon will be feature > complete and at least as stable as the drm2 support currently in tree. > > I need to weigh my soft commitment to make long-term DRM support happen > with paid work and other activities which are much more important to me > long term. Thus I've currently committed to spending every Sunday fixing > bugs in the drm-next branches. Amdgpu is both more important to me and has > gotten much less attention than i915. Thus I will be devoting my efforts to > it in the near term. I'd very much welcome efforts by others to triage the > issues in i915. > > Many people ask when drm-next will be available on 11. I am not a > committer and thus have no direct say in that. However, if you are a > motivated individual with kernel knowledge you should contact Adrian Chadd. > There are a few places where I was not able to provide proper linuxkpi > semantics without making (mostly quite modest) changes to sys/kern. There > is a general reluctance by some core developers to make changes to > accommodate Linux. It is possible that, with additional effort, the > linuxkpi can both be complete enough to avoid needing to port the graphics > drivers to FreeBSD (something clearly shown by past efforts to be > unsustainable) and not need to make any kernel changes. If you would like > to help with that, let Adrian know. In the meantime, TrueOS will continue > to use my development branches for the benefit of users with newer hardware. > > -M > > ___ > freebsd-...@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-x11 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-x11-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > Hi Matthew / others, Thanks for your work - I sincerely appreciate every minute of your personal time spent on this. What are your thoughts on whether this is ready for committing to 12-current, with plenty of time for polishing before it makes it into a release? Regards, Ben ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: drm-next update and longer term plans
On Thu, Dec 01, 2016 at 02:25:05PM -0800, Matthew Macy wrote: > I imagine that for most users the state of graphics support for post-Haswell > hardware is a bit of a black box so I'm sending out this note to let users > know what they can and cannot expect. > > Wayland has actually become a reality for some. Talk to Johannes Lundberg if > you're interested in tracking that. > > The i915 (Intel integrated GPUs) driver is currently best supported by the > drm-next-4.7 branch. Broadwell and Skylake support is complete and some > support came in late in the cycle for Kaby Lake. I can still consistently > lock up the kernel in the later stages of the piglit test suite, there is no > backlight support, and suspend/resume do not work on Skylake. The drm-next > branch is integrated with upstream up through Linux 4.8-rc5 and thus has > complete support for Kaby Lake, but there is a lockup in i915 that occurs > some time within an hour of startx. This takes too long for it to have shown > up in my limited integration smoke testing. > > The amdgpu driver is, in terms of KPI dependencies - as far as I can tell - a > strict superset of the radeon driver. For example, when I tested my one older > card that uses the radeon driver it manifested the same ttm bugs as amdgpu > did at that time. Thus, when amdgpu reaches a complete working state I expect > radeon to largely "just" work. As of this past Sunday amdgpu with the amdgpu > DDX works with 2D, supports external monitors - selecting the appropriate > resolution on a per display basis, and backlight works. It will also > typically panic in ttm within ~90 minutes of startx. Although this is huge > progress over panicking within 30s of startx (which was the case as of > Saturday) or not starting at all due to bugs in the libdrm port a few weeks > prior, it's obviously not something I encourage anyone to use. > > My primary motivation for starting with the work is being able to to train > DNNs/RNNs and other model types using Theano/Caffe/Tensorflow/BidMach etc GPU > accelerated whilst still running FreeBSD. The Radeon Open Compute stack holds > out the promise of doing that without using the closed source CUDA stack on > top of the Linux ABI emulation - which would inevitably be opaque and > fragile. My plan is to keep on fixing bugs and tracking upstream until the > first long term branch after ROC support has been integrated in to Linux > mainline. I have no exact knowledge of when exactly that will be (AMD doesn't > have sufficient developer resources to make any concrete guarantees) but > think it should happen by the summer of 2017. I would like to think that by > that time the i915, amdgpu, and radeon will be feature complete and at least > as stable as the drm2 support currently in tree. > > I need to weigh my soft commitment to make long-term DRM support happen with > paid work and other activities which are much more important to me long term. > Thus I've currently committed to spending every Sunday fixing bugs in the > drm-next branches. Amdgpu is both more important to me and has gotten much > less attention than i915. Thus I will be devoting my efforts to it in the > near term. I'd very much welcome efforts by others to triage the issues in > i915. > > Many people ask when drm-next will be available on 11. I am not a committer > and thus have no direct say in that. However, if you are a motivated > individual with kernel knowledge you should contact Adrian Chadd. There are a > few places where I was not able to provide proper linuxkpi semantics without > making (mostly quite modest) changes to sys/kern. There is a general > reluctance by some core developers to make changes to accommodate Linux. It > is possible that, with additional effort, the linuxkpi can both be complete > enough to avoid needing to port the graphics drivers to FreeBSD (something > clearly shown by past efforts to be unsustainable) and not need to make any > kernel changes. If you would like to help with that, let Adrian know. In the > meantime, TrueOS will continue to use my development branches for the benefit > of users with newer hardware. Hey Matt, Thank you so much for your hard work. It's very much appreciated. Everyone would be stuck on the VESA driver with all its crappiness if it weren't for the efforts you and your team have put in. Since I make it a point to eat my own dogfood, it has been a pleasure running a HardenedBSD-flavored version of your drm-next-4.7 bits. I'm able to run HardenedBSD on my work-issued laptop instead of CentOS. Thank you for saving me from that. Thanks, -- Shawn Webb Cofounder and Security Engineer HardenedBSD GPG Key ID: 0x6A84658F52456EEE GPG Key Fingerprint: 2ABA B6BD EF6A F486 BE89 3D9E 6A84 658F 5245 6EEE signature.asc Description: PGP signature
drm-next update and longer term plans
I imagine that for most users the state of graphics support for post-Haswell hardware is a bit of a black box so I'm sending out this note to let users know what they can and cannot expect. Wayland has actually become a reality for some. Talk to Johannes Lundberg if you're interested in tracking that. The i915 (Intel integrated GPUs) driver is currently best supported by the drm-next-4.7 branch. Broadwell and Skylake support is complete and some support came in late in the cycle for Kaby Lake. I can still consistently lock up the kernel in the later stages of the piglit test suite, there is no backlight support, and suspend/resume do not work on Skylake. The drm-next branch is integrated with upstream up through Linux 4.8-rc5 and thus has complete support for Kaby Lake, but there is a lockup in i915 that occurs some time within an hour of startx. This takes too long for it to have shown up in my limited integration smoke testing. The amdgpu driver is, in terms of KPI dependencies - as far as I can tell - a strict superset of the radeon driver. For example, when I tested my one older card that uses the radeon driver it manifested the same ttm bugs as amdgpu did at that time. Thus, when amdgpu reaches a complete working state I expect radeon to largely "just" work. As of this past Sunday amdgpu with the amdgpu DDX works with 2D, supports external monitors - selecting the appropriate resolution on a per display basis, and backlight works. It will also typically panic in ttm within ~90 minutes of startx. Although this is huge progress over panicking within 30s of startx (which was the case as of Saturday) or not starting at all due to bugs in the libdrm port a few weeks prior, it's obviously not something I encourage anyone to use. My primary motivation for starting with the work is being able to to train DNNs/RNNs and other model types using Theano/Caffe/Tensorflow/BidMach etc GPU accelerated whilst still running FreeBSD. The Radeon Open Compute stack holds out the promise of doing that without using the closed source CUDA stack on top of the Linux ABI emulation - which would inevitably be opaque and fragile. My plan is to keep on fixing bugs and tracking upstream until the first long term branch after ROC support has been integrated in to Linux mainline. I have no exact knowledge of when exactly that will be (AMD doesn't have sufficient developer resources to make any concrete guarantees) but think it should happen by the summer of 2017. I would like to think that by that time the i915, amdgpu, and radeon will be feature complete and at least as stable as the drm2 support currently in tree. I need to weigh my soft commitment to make long-term DRM support happen with paid work and other activities which are much more important to me long term. Thus I've currently committed to spending every Sunday fixing bugs in the drm-next branches. Amdgpu is both more important to me and has gotten much less attention than i915. Thus I will be devoting my efforts to it in the near term. I'd very much welcome efforts by others to triage the issues in i915. Many people ask when drm-next will be available on 11. I am not a committer and thus have no direct say in that. However, if you are a motivated individual with kernel knowledge you should contact Adrian Chadd. There are a few places where I was not able to provide proper linuxkpi semantics without making (mostly quite modest) changes to sys/kern. There is a general reluctance by some core developers to make changes to accommodate Linux. It is possible that, with additional effort, the linuxkpi can both be complete enough to avoid needing to port the graphics drivers to FreeBSD (something clearly shown by past efforts to be unsustainable) and not need to make any kernel changes. If you would like to help with that, let Adrian know. In the meantime, TrueOS will continue to use my development branches for the benefit of users with newer hardware. -M ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
