Re: Future of FreeBSD 7.0 and up
On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:26:47 -0800
"Dwight Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What
> had me curious to asking this is this article I read about a review on
> FreeBSD 6.2 (http://www.softwareinreview.com/cms/content/view/67/) The
> reviewer had a lot of criticisms that seemed harsh, but at the same time
> raised some valid points.
the writer doesnt seem to know much about Freebsd...or have cared to RTFM.
"Installation of default config files. After installation, FreeBSD is left
with no real make.conf or rc.conf, although there are example files
in /usr/share/examples."
I guess his /etc/defaults/* got lost with the geometry bug (which, btw, never
actually affected any of the servers / workstations / laptops I've installed
with FBsd - it complains, ignore it, works (for me at least). And ... which
options do we want to put in the initial config files? The defaults are ALL
there and they work. If you don't like them you *CHANGE* the defaults isn't
that the whole point of configuring your box?
I agree with someone else who said that at least w/ BSD you have 1 layer of
config - nice and clean. If you don't like something as efficient as a text
file for your options, write a great tool for every configuration and promote
its use. I'm happy to stay away from Microsoft style dumbing down and hidden
hacks (ie, registry tweaks, which are the only way to get things working half
the time). ( I've got some ideas on an useful configuration tool for BSD...but
this is not the time to spill the beans :)
anyway, we can all find nits on anything. Nobody is forcing him to like or use
FreeBSD, nor us to read his/her articles (ever again) :)
> I only ask this question as I would like to see
> FreeBSD get the same recognition as Linux as FreeBSD is a powerful OS that
> should not be overshadowed
well, each to their own... I for one I prefer that Linux keeps all the
"distribution hell" and limelight... FBSD (and all the BSDs for that matter)
are well known enough by the technical community - i see more and more people
using them all the time...
:)
_
{Beto|Norberto|Numard} Meijome
"That's what I love about GUIs: They make simple tasks easier,
and complex tasks impossible."
-- John William Chambless
I speak for myself, not my employer. Contents may be hot. Slippery when wet.
Reading disclaimers makes you go blind. Writing them is worse. You have been
Warned.
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Re: Future of FreeBSD 7.0 and up
On 01/03/07, Jeffrey Goldberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Feb 28, 2007, at 1:26 PM, Dwight Smith wrote: > I guess my question is that will the ease of building or installing > software for FreeBSD ever streamline to where you do not have to do > as many steps and text config file entries? I've recently moved back to BSD from more than a decade of linux. What I found most frustrating about the Linux distributions I've used is the multiple layers of configuration tools. There never seemed to be a single layer at which I could do everything, and these layers of admin tools would step on other layers. So for me, editing text config files is a great relief. But tastes differ. While it took me a few days to get my head round the system, I find software installation though ports more pleasant on FreeBSD then I ever did with Linux RPMs. So, I can only speak for myself and without much new experience with FreeBSD (I had used NetBSD back in 1996), but I find the software installation and configuration steps easier under FreeBSD. But maybe I and most other FreeBSD users are unusual. I've used apache from back when it was NCSA; so for me the apache configuration file is something I'm comfortable with (though it has changed a great deal over the years). Likewise for a large number of other things I may wish to run. Maybe today's sysadms aren't familiar with all of these sorts of configuration files, and so being presented with configuring them directly is daunting. And so maybe for them higher level administration tools are useful. So these people should start off with cd /usr/ports/sysutils/webmin make install It really isn't hard. > I only ask this question as I would like to see FreeBSD get the > same recognition as Linux as FreeBSD is a powerful OS that should > not be overshadowed. Well, you could talk to some venture capitalists and create a Red Hat equivalent for FreeBSD. I guess it should be called "Red Devil" if that doesn't step on too many trademarks. I don't think that FreeBSD people should be too upset that Linux happens to be the free Unix-like system that is in the limelight. It's just the way things turned out. Cheers, -j ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" I agree with most with whats been said here, I expect he typically uses linux and then finds freebsd uncomfortable to use, he may have a point with the hardware compatability but thats about it. For a neutral perspective tho someone who hasnt used linux or freebsd would probably find freebsd easier to learn. Its more organised layout with its directories, the ports system is much more reliable then the dependency hell you get on linux and easier to configure. Chris ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Future of FreeBSD 7.0 and up
On Feb 28, 2007, at 1:26 PM, Dwight Smith wrote: I guess my question is that will the ease of building or installing software for FreeBSD ever streamline to where you do not have to do as many steps and text config file entries? I've recently moved back to BSD from more than a decade of linux. What I found most frustrating about the Linux distributions I've used is the multiple layers of configuration tools. There never seemed to be a single layer at which I could do everything, and these layers of admin tools would step on other layers. So for me, editing text config files is a great relief. But tastes differ. While it took me a few days to get my head round the system, I find software installation though ports more pleasant on FreeBSD then I ever did with Linux RPMs. So, I can only speak for myself and without much new experience with FreeBSD (I had used NetBSD back in 1996), but I find the software installation and configuration steps easier under FreeBSD. But maybe I and most other FreeBSD users are unusual. I've used apache from back when it was NCSA; so for me the apache configuration file is something I'm comfortable with (though it has changed a great deal over the years). Likewise for a large number of other things I may wish to run. Maybe today's sysadms aren't familiar with all of these sorts of configuration files, and so being presented with configuring them directly is daunting. And so maybe for them higher level administration tools are useful. So these people should start off with cd /usr/ports/sysutils/webmin make install It really isn't hard. I only ask this question as I would like to see FreeBSD get the same recognition as Linux as FreeBSD is a powerful OS that should not be overshadowed. Well, you could talk to some venture capitalists and create a Red Hat equivalent for FreeBSD. I guess it should be called "Red Devil" if that doesn't step on too many trademarks. I don't think that FreeBSD people should be too upset that Linux happens to be the free Unix-like system that is in the limelight. It's just the way things turned out. Cheers, -j ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Future of FreeBSD 7.0 and up
Its Me (Marwan Sultan?) wrote: Dwight! What ! How! Installing FreeBSD takes flat 3 minutes!!! after i'm done, I do install the ports, with 2 more minutes!! Then from ports Tree I just command "make install clean" for Apache PHP5 webmin, lynx-ssl radius and few more ports, like pop3 and others.. PLUS!! i configure it as a gateway, for my datalink routers (wan branches) and lan GW, plus upgrading to latest patches..and adding few routes.. It is true that as your experience grows, you can do things like this more quickly. For the OP: examine simple shell scripting. Anything you do on the command line can be programmed to be done for you. I use sysinstall from CD and install a minimal -RELEASE quickly, and then I have shell scripts which take a few brief arguments regarding interface configuration and the server's intended use, and then: a. check for the existence of the Ports Tree and Source Tree downloading them as necessary. b. install cvsup-without-gui c. update to -STABLE, including setting vars and kernel options d. reboot e. finish update f. update ports tree g. install a selected set of ports So, most of the "work" I used to do by hand is automated - all I need to do is run "tail" on some logfiles and check my mail in the morning. (Well, "mergemaster" isn't quite automatic just yet). But, also, as Marwan indicates, I don't get to use it much - I don't have to build servers very often ;-) Lots of people have done this; perhaps the most famous is Greg Lehey's "instant-workstation" port. The reason it's not done for you: the BSD's are all about flexibility, in line with the UNIX philosophy "tools, not policy" Kevin Kinsey ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
RE: Future of FreeBSD 7.0 and up
Dwight! What ! How! Installing FreeBSD takes flat 3 minutes!!! after i'm done, I do install the ports, with 2 more minutes!! Then from ports Tree I just command "make install clean" for Apache PHP5 webmin, lynx-ssl radius and few more ports, like pop3 and others.. PLUS!! i configure it as a gateway, for my datalink routers (wan branches) and lan GW, plus upgrading to latest patches..and adding few routes.. it takes, few hours, infact around 3 max! If I dunt upgrade the system it takes 1 hour only! so i dunt know how more easy you want it to be! Oh, forgot to tell you, i have a freebsd server thats working since year 2000!! till today! plus few others. The review you pointed us to, is just totally unprofessional one. Marwan Sultan System Administrator. From: "Dwight Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Good morning, My name is Dwight Smith, and I only had a question or two in terms of the future useability of FreeBSD. I have used it on and off and found it to be a great UNIX operating system for servers, but my only major concern was the amount of time it takes to prepare a server such as an Apache Server with PHP and MySQL support as opposed to a Linux system which is what I am currently using now as well as my company. I guess my question is that will the ease of building or installing software for FreeBSD ever streamline to where you do not have to do as many steps and text config file entries? What had me curious to asking this is this article I read about a review on FreeBSD 6.2 (http://www.softwareinreview.com/cms/content/view/67/) The reviewer had a lot of criticisms that seemed harsh, but at the same time raised some valid points. I only ask this question as I would like to see FreeBSD get the same recognition as Linux as FreeBSD is a powerful OS that should not be overshadowed and I hope it doesn't cause it saved my IT job many a times when a server crashes and I have to piece together an old PII with 32 MB RAM and install FreeBSD with Samba. So thanks in advance for your attention in this and I wish all of you the best. Sincerely, Dwight Smith _ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Future of FreeBSD 7.0 and up
John Nielsen wrote: On Wednesday 28 February 2007 14:26, Dwight Smith wrote: My name is Dwight Smith, and I only had a question or two in terms of the future useability of FreeBSD. I have used it on and off and found it to be a great UNIX operating system for servers, but my only major concern was the amount of time it takes to prepare a server such as an Apache Server with PHP and MySQL support as opposed to a Linux system which is what I am currently using now as well as my company. I guess my question is that will the ease of building or installing software for FreeBSD ever streamline to where you do not have to do as many steps and text config file entries? If you don't need any customizations, "pkg_add -r packagename" will automatically download and install almost everything available in the ports system. It will even get the newest version appropriate for the version of FreeBSD you are running. If you prefer to compile from source or need a non-default setting, going into the relevant directory in the ports tree and typing "make install clean" will again do everything automatically. In most cases the same command will also present you with an easy-to-use menu of options available for the port, if any. Which of those one-line commands strikes you as being less than easy from the point of view of a systems administrator, developer, technical end-user or Computer Coordinator? If you have concerns about a specific piece of software, sending a message to this or another appropriate list or directly to the port's maintainer will typically yield good information, and if you have ideas for improvements they should be well received in the appropriate forum. What had me curious to asking this is this article I read about a review on FreeBSD 6.2 (http://www.softwareinreview.com/cms/content/view/67/) The reviewer had a lot of criticisms that seemed harsh, but at the same time raised some valid points. I only ask this question as I would like to see FreeBSD get the same recognition as Linux as FreeBSD is a powerful OS that should not be overshadowed and I hope it doesn't cause it saved my IT job many a times when a server crashes and I have to piece together an old PII with 32 MB RAM and install FreeBSD with Samba. So thanks in advance for your attention in this and I wish all of you the best. My initial take on that review is that the reviewer had an earlier bad experience with FreeBSD (perhaps as a result of failing to understand that 5.0 and 5.1 were developer preview releases), tried installing 6.2 once on a single system, ran down his pre-existing checklist of complaints to see if any of them had magically been fixed (as a result, perhaps, of the FreeBSD developer community reading his mind and finding themselves in agreement), did little if any troubleshooting of the hardware compatibility issues he mentioned (even reporting such occurences is a good way to contribute to a volunteer-based project), and wrote the whole thing off as being stagnant. Some of his points and recommendations might have merit, but many seem to be the writer's wishlist for making FreeBSD into something it isn't (some hybrid of Gentoo and Fedora, perhaps). That and his general attitude of hopeless negativism[1] make it hard to take his review seriously. Personally, FreeBSD 6.2 is the best OS I have ever used and I find it extremely well-suited to my needs and tastes for both server and desktop use. The only way to see if that is the case for you is to try it (again). If there are shortcomings, be proactive about reporting them. FreeBSD's user community is one of its biggest strengths. JN ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" If you use pkg_add -r then a sunsequent cvsup or portsnap, followed by portupgrade is advised. I have seen it happen often where the package is older than the port. Brian ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Future of FreeBSD 7.0 and up
At 02:26 PM 2/28/2007, Dwight Smith wrote: Good morning, My name is Dwight Smith, and I only had a question or two in terms of the future useability of FreeBSD. I have used it on and off and found it to be a great UNIX operating system for servers, but my only major concern was the amount of time it takes to prepare a server such as an Apache Server with PHP and MySQL support as opposed to a Linux system which is what I am currently using now as well as my company. I guess my question is that will the ease of building or installing software for FreeBSD ever streamline to where you do not have to do as many steps and text config file entries? What had me curious to asking this is this article I read about a review on FreeBSD 6.2 (http://www.softwareinreview.com/cms/content/view/67/) The reviewer had a lot of criticisms that seemed harsh, but at the same time raised some valid points. I only ask this question as I would like to see FreeBSD get the same recognition as Linux as FreeBSD is a powerful OS that should not be overshadowed and I hope it doesn't cause it saved my IT job many a times when a server crashes and I have to piece together an old PII with 32 MB RAM and install FreeBSD with Samba. So thanks in advance for your attention in this and I wish all of you the best. Sincerely, Dwight Smith Computer Coordinator Christ Second Baptist Church Dwight, That review was from a person who obviously is very inexperienced with FreeBSD in general. Please read my thread discussion with him found here: http://www.tjrforum.com/showthread.php?t=3067 As mentioned in the thread, I'm done replying to it. The guy is very inexperienced, and writes technical reviews that are completely inaccurate. when questioned about it (on technical merit) he has no good responses. As for your actual question, installing the software is simple if you use the ports (cd /usr/ports/foo/bar; make install clean) So to be honest, I'm not sure what "streamlining" you'd need, want, or expect.. 16,000 3rd party applications able to be installed with a "make install" command seems pretty streamlined to me ;) - Jeff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Future of FreeBSD 7.0 and up
On Wednesday 28 February 2007 14:26, Dwight Smith wrote: > My name is Dwight Smith, and I only had a question or two in terms of the > future useability of FreeBSD. I have used it on and off and found it to be > a great UNIX operating system for servers, but my only major concern was > the amount of time it takes to prepare a server such as an Apache Server > with PHP and MySQL support as opposed to a Linux system which is what I am > currently using now as well as my company. I guess my question is that will > the ease of building or installing software for FreeBSD ever streamline to > where you do not have to do as many steps and text config file entries? If you don't need any customizations, "pkg_add -r packagename" will automatically download and install almost everything available in the ports system. It will even get the newest version appropriate for the version of FreeBSD you are running. If you prefer to compile from source or need a non-default setting, going into the relevant directory in the ports tree and typing "make install clean" will again do everything automatically. In most cases the same command will also present you with an easy-to-use menu of options available for the port, if any. Which of those one-line commands strikes you as being less than easy from the point of view of a systems administrator, developer, technical end-user or Computer Coordinator? If you have concerns about a specific piece of software, sending a message to this or another appropriate list or directly to the port's maintainer will typically yield good information, and if you have ideas for improvements they should be well received in the appropriate forum. > What had me curious to asking this is this article I read about a review on > FreeBSD 6.2 (http://www.softwareinreview.com/cms/content/view/67/) The > reviewer had a lot of criticisms that seemed harsh, but at the same time > raised some valid points. I only ask this question as I would like to see > FreeBSD get the same recognition as Linux as FreeBSD is a powerful OS that > should not be overshadowed and I hope it doesn't cause it saved my IT job > many a times when a server crashes and I have to piece together an old PII > with 32 MB RAM and install FreeBSD with Samba. So thanks in advance for > your attention in this and I wish all of you the best. My initial take on that review is that the reviewer had an earlier bad experience with FreeBSD (perhaps as a result of failing to understand that 5.0 and 5.1 were developer preview releases), tried installing 6.2 once on a single system, ran down his pre-existing checklist of complaints to see if any of them had magically been fixed (as a result, perhaps, of the FreeBSD developer community reading his mind and finding themselves in agreement), did little if any troubleshooting of the hardware compatibility issues he mentioned (even reporting such occurences is a good way to contribute to a volunteer-based project), and wrote the whole thing off as being stagnant. Some of his points and recommendations might have merit, but many seem to be the writer's wishlist for making FreeBSD into something it isn't (some hybrid of Gentoo and Fedora, perhaps). That and his general attitude of hopeless negativism[1] make it hard to take his review seriously. Personally, FreeBSD 6.2 is the best OS I have ever used and I find it extremely well-suited to my needs and tastes for both server and desktop use. The only way to see if that is the case for you is to try it (again). If there are shortcomings, be proactive about reporting them. FreeBSD's user community is one of its biggest strengths. JN ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
