Re: List Protocol (was: Major Version Upgrade 4.11 to 5.x)
On 2006-12-12 23:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 07:49 PM 12/12/2006, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: The reason that questions doesen't require a subscription ought to be obvious to anyone with any experience with FreeBSD. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is used as the default contact e-mail address for most non-financial FreeBSD dealings, such as on CD cases, NOPE. Disagree Completely. You are way out of touch. Those people don't comprehend a mailing list. They do web pages and web forums and other clumsy devices. Put it on www.freebsd.org if you want it easily accessible to such people. The list *is* mentioned on the web site as the place to ask general FreeBSD questions, already :-/ As I wrote elsethread, I don't find the style of Ted's post very nice, but we should definitely find a way to clarify why this list is open. The freebsd-questions mailing is is not the same as freebsd-hackers, or freebsd-rc, or other much more technical lists. It is being used as a first contact point, both for technical and non-technical people. Some of the less technical posters may find subscribing before posting strange or even completely incomprehensible. These users will be lost to FreeBSD, if we start making a subscription mandatory. t is for the sake of these, non-technical, users that the list is kept open to posts for anyone. To the long-time subscribers of the list, letting any random average Joe User post, seems silly. This is mostly a result of seeing posts by people who are not acquainted at all with FreeBSD, who don't even know that FreeBSD is not a Linux distribution, or any number of other points which may be irritating for us long-time FreeBSD users. This is a 'sacrifice' which is not totally worthless though. Let me explain why. Keeping the list is not as silly as it may initially seem to be. The list and its openness serve their purpose quite fine, since they lets newcomers to FreeBSD ask questions with a minimum of hassle, and receive answers which are very often characterized by the very same aspects which keep long-time subscribers still posting here: * The answers are usually to the point, correct, technically valid, complete (even including examples) * The answers are from people who are already using FreeBSD, and most of the time know their stuff * The answers start coming in pretty soon after the initial post (this is a side-effect of having subcribers around the globe, from almost all timezones) * The answers often include pointers to more documentation, to which the interested new user may refer for more details All these are qualities which are not strictly related to the openness of the list. When combined with the openness of teh list, though, they form the nucleus of what initially keeps a lot of new users around. I know it is what kept *me* around, what kept a lot of the FreeBSD users I personally know around, and I can only guess, but I'm fairly confident that the same applies to a huge amount of the people who have posted here during their first baby-steps with FreeBSD. - Giorgos ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: List Protocol (was: Major Version Upgrade 4.11 to 5.x)
On 2006-12-12 20:36, Bob Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 04:49:39PM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: a young girl in a tank top and boobs out front Isn't that where the boobs are usually installed? Well, yes, most of the time :P Until then STFU you ungrateful bastards. All you once were dumb newbies who didn't know FreeBSD from free beer, and I'll bet more than a few of you sent e-mail to questions, thinking it was an actual person who gave a damn. Boy were you surprised! That's exactly what happened to me, back in the time of FBSD 4.3. And I got a response from an actual knowledgeable person who gave a damn. The only thing better would have been a young girl in a tank top and boobs out front. While Ted has a unique personal style of writing, to which I don't totally subscribe, he is quite right about this one. There is a reason that the freebsd-questions list does not require a subscription, and he got it 100% right. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: List Protocol (was: Major Version Upgrade 4.11 to 5.x)
On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 23:10 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Those people don't comprehend a mailing list. They do web pages and web forums and other clumsy devices. Put it on www.freebsd.org if you want it easily accessible to such people. Those people, are probably future FreeBSD user's, and sysadmins. You don't know their age, or anything about them. They could be in college, or high school for all you know. They could be in their 30's in the middle of a career change. They may just not know any better. It would be wise to try to guide those people, as they too count when it comes to supporting FreeBSD and the community that surrounds it. I think the point is that we are not all born sophisticated user's of FreeBSD. Exactly what would you put on the homepage? A big banner stating that all newbies and clueless people in general should...? A message board, since that's what such people are used to? That's my .02 as someone who's been there, done that in probably the most clumsy way possible. :-) Bob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: List Protocol (was: Major Version Upgrade 4.11 to 5.x)
On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 08:36:14PM -0500, Bob Hall wrote: On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 04:49:39PM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: a young girl in a tank top and boobs out front Isn't that where the boobs are usually installed? Until then STFU you ungrateful bastards. All you once were dumb newbies who didn't know FreeBSD from free beer, and I'll bet more than a few of you sent e-mail to questions, thinking it was an actual person who gave a damn. Boy were you surprised! That's exactly what happened to me, back in the time of FBSD 4.3. And I got a response from an actual knowledgeable person who gave a damn. The only thing better would have been a young girl in a tank top and boobs out front. I vote for both.(I'm greedy) jerry ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: List Protocol (was: Major Version Upgrade 4.11 to 5.x)
The reason that questions doesen't require a subscription ought to be obvious to anyone with any experience with FreeBSD. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is used as the default contact e-mail address for most non-financial FreeBSD dealings, such as on CD cases, marketing materials, etc. Why? Because for most newbies they think they are dealing with a cohesive organization with a young girl in a tank top and boobs out front answering the damn phone. They DON'T think they are dealing with a bunch of hayseeds sitting on their computers wanking at each other. When your ready to field all of those questions from misguided newbies, mistaken newspaper article writers, company wanks told by their superiors to investigate this freeBSd thing then we can make questions an opt-in list. Until then STFU you ungrateful bastards. All you once were dumb newbies who didn't know FreeBSD from free beer, and I'll bet more than a few of you sent e-mail to questions, thinking it was an actual person who gave a damn. Boy were you surprised! Ted - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 12:52 PM Subject: List Protocol (was: Major Version Upgrade 4.11 to 5.x) At 05:59 PM 12/11/2006, Gerard Seibert wrote: Besides, how hard is it to subscribe to a list, post your question and hopefully receive a satisfactory response and then terminate your association with the list if you are so inclined. Wasn't going to say anything, but... I agree totally that you should have to be subscribed to post. This isn't AOL 101 -- some pittance of technical competence is a prereq'. Try Googling before posting is a repeated several times daily; why not make 'em subscribe first? Might cut down on some of that, as well as the spam scam emails. I can't recall any other mailing lists I've been on in the last 10 years that allow non-subscribed posts. And from a more personal view, the no subscription required has bitten me at least once -- I always use alias addresses for publicly archived lists, since they will inevitably be scrapped up by the spammers and abused. I forgot to select the correct From on a post a few weeks ago; now a real address is chiseled in granite on the web archive, and I'll probably have to abandon it soon. Would have much rather had it bounced back at me. -Wayne ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: List Protocol (was: Major Version Upgrade 4.11 to 5.x)
On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 04:49:39PM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: a young girl in a tank top and boobs out front Isn't that where the boobs are usually installed? Until then STFU you ungrateful bastards. All you once were dumb newbies who didn't know FreeBSD from free beer, and I'll bet more than a few of you sent e-mail to questions, thinking it was an actual person who gave a damn. Boy were you surprised! That's exactly what happened to me, back in the time of FBSD 4.3. And I got a response from an actual knowledgeable person who gave a damn. The only thing better would have been a young girl in a tank top and boobs out front. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: List Protocol (was: Major Version Upgrade 4.11 to 5.x)
On Tuesday, 12 December 2006 at 16:49:39 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Until then STFU you ungrateful bastards. All you once were dumb newbies who didn't know FreeBSD from free beer, and I'll bet more than a few of you sent e-mail to questions, thinking it was an actual person who gave a damn. Boy were you surprised! Ted, there are other aspects of the list protocol. One has to do with message format. You seem to have great difficulty with this one, requiring other people to manually reformat, and often to guess what you're talking about. Another has to do with politeness. You seem to abuse this one again and again; it's one of the reasons why I seldom read this mailing list any more. You've probably driven off a number of people who would be able to give *helpful* answers. Please stop. Greg -- When replying to this message, please copy the original recipients. If you don't, I may ignore the reply or reply to the original recipients. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/questions.html See complete headers for address and phone numbers. pgp6idP3CZE8E.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: List Protocol
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: On Tuesday, 12 December 2006 at 19:47:52 -0800, Garrett Cooper wrote: Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: On Tuesday, 12 December 2006 at 16:49:39 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Until then STFU you ungrateful bastards. All you once were dumb newbies who didn't know FreeBSD from free beer, and I'll bet more than a few of you sent e-mail to questions, thinking it was an actual person who gave a damn. Boy were you surprised! Ted, there are other aspects of the list protocol. One has to do with message format. You seem to have great difficulty with this one, requiring other people to manually reformat, and often to guess what you're talking about. Another has to do with politeness. You seem to abuse this one again and again; it's one of the reasons why I seldom read this mailing list any more. You've probably driven off a number of people who would be able to give *helpful* answers. Please stop. Greg Wayne, et. all, There's an obvious reason why the mailing list is open to all, so instead of conjecturing on why it's the way it is, we should just accept the way it is and leave things like that? You sent this only to me, at least according to the headers. Did Wayne get it? Greg, I do empathize with what you said in the past, in regard to what I wrote. I've come across many cases in the past where I couldn't solve what I needed to get solved by using Google, so I've turned to knowledgeable people on the list to help solve my problems, respectfully, cause I know that my knowledge or time was limited. I just was trying to emphasize the fact that I wanted to teach others how to fish, instead of just providing them with the fish, so as to speak, as the proverb goes. That way they would strengthen their knowledge, as well as benefit the community with their experience. Many times people have asked similar questions, which can be solved more quickly by doing a little bit of research on their topic of question. I'm not trying to say that my way is right and that it should always be done. It's just a means to discovering the truth or solving a problem, one of the frustrating and challenging things about life. To each and her's their own, but I'm just trying to provide a solution that works for me in the hope that the reader will be able to solve their problem :). I don't have a problem with what you have written (or at least, I can't recall any such problem :-). I was talking to Ted, who can be quite obnoxious at times. FWIW, I tend to agree with what you say, though that doesn't mean I won't disagree on a detail at a later date. Greg -- Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. Understood. I hate it when I reply to the wrong person =\.. Sorry for the extra email and take care! - -Garrett -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFf3qHEnKyINQw/HARAkqgAJ0WoEzC8JIGhWODYLxikLy64bonQQCgjW/u 79gjW00GzJ5InJZLSpPVM3c= =q80r -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: List Protocol (was: Major Version Upgrade 4.11 to 5.x)
On Wed, Dec 13, 2006 at 12:31:39PM +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: On Tuesday, 12 December 2006 at 16:49:39 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Until then STFU you ungrateful bastards. All you once were dumb newbies who didn't know FreeBSD from free beer, and I'll bet more than a few of you sent e-mail to questions, thinking it was an actual person who gave a damn. Boy were you surprised! Ted, there are other aspects of the list protocol. One has to do with message format. You seem to have great difficulty with this one, requiring other people to manually reformat, and often to guess what you're talking about. Another has to do with politeness. You seem to abuse this one again and again; it's one of the reasons why I seldom read this mailing list any more. You've probably driven off a number of people who would be able to give *helpful* answers. Please stop. Yeah, I've been procmailing him to /dev/null for a couple of years now. Kris pgpOBSvfEV8Ao.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: List Protocol (was: Major Version Upgrade 4.11 to 5.x)
On Tuesday 12 December 2006 20:01, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: On Tuesday, 12 December 2006 at 16:49:39 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Until then STFU you ungrateful bastards. All you once were dumb newbies who didn't know FreeBSD from free beer, and I'll bet more than a few of you sent e-mail to questions, thinking it was an actual person who gave a damn. Boy were you surprised! Ted, there are other aspects of the list protocol. One has to do with message format. You seem to have great difficulty with this one, requiring other people to manually reformat, and often to guess what you're talking about. Another has to do with politeness. You seem to abuse this one again and again; it's one of the reasons why I seldom read this mailing list any more. You've probably driven off a number of people who would be able to give *helpful* answers. Please stop. Greg -- When replying to this message, please copy the original recipients. If you don't, I may ignore the reply or reply to the original recipients. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/questions.html See complete headers for address and phone numbers. Not that Ted needs any defense, but ... He's also made a few of us pay attention and pitch in. God love him! Now where is the girl in the tank top? lane ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: List Protocol (was: Major Version Upgrade 4.11 to 5.x)
At 07:49 PM 12/12/2006, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: The reason that questions doesen't require a subscription ought to be obvious to anyone with any experience with FreeBSD. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is used as the default contact e-mail address for most non-financial FreeBSD dealings, such as on CD cases, NOPE. Disagree Completely. You are way out of touch. Those people don't comprehend a mailing list. They do web pages and web forums and other clumsy devices. Put it on www.freebsd.org if you want it easily accessible to such people. They DON'T think they are dealing with a bunch of hayseeds sitting on their computers wanking at each other. I have some gripe with the list and its membership, but have never accused it of being a circle-jerk. Until then STFU you ungrateful bastards. All you once were dumb newbies Shut Up. Those guys are in the windoze or linux 'fest. -WC ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
