Re: Any BASIC Gurus around?

[Paul Wootton]

On 06/18/13 15:01, Chris Maness wrote:

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 4:31 AM, Paul Wootton<
paul-free...@fletchermoorland.co.uk>  wrote:


On 06/17/13 20:40, Greg Larkin wrote:


Hi Chris,

I prepared a new patch that incorporates my fixes, yours and
Michael's.  I found the coredump - multiple missing right parens on
line 1170.  Then I ran into another problem on line 430 and made an
educated guess with the fix.

The new patch is here, and you'll need to apply it to the original
version of the program:
http://people.freebsd.org/~**glarkin/diffs/prog.bas.2.diff<http://people.freebsd.org/~glarkin/diffs/prog.bas.2.diff>

Hope that works,
Greg


Hi Chris and Greg,

I have gone through the code and found a load more differences. I dont
know if the sun and moon positions are correct though
As a side note, the the first page of code on the PDF page number 5 is
different from the PDF page number 34. I have used page numbers 34 ->  38 as
my code reference.

I have a patch file at 
http://www.caspersworld.co.uk/**FreeBSD/basic.diff<http://www.caspersworld.co.uk/FreeBSD/basic.diff>

HTH
Paul




Paul, which version did you patch for?  It doesn't seem to be the latest or
the original.  If you want to post the whole file.  I can figure out if you
are missing any of the other contributions out there.  I think there were a
total of three patches before yours.

Thanks, Paul
Chris Maness


Hi Chris,

I used the code from the first post and compared against the PDF.
I did try checking against the various diffs and I think I have them all 
covered.


I full file is at http://www.caspersworld.co.uk/FreeBSD/basic-moon.bas

Paul


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Re: Any BASIC Gurus around?

[Chris Maness]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 4:31 AM, Paul Wootton <
paul-free...@fletchermoorland.co.uk> wrote:

> On 06/17/13 20:40, Greg Larkin wrote:
>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> I prepared a new patch that incorporates my fixes, yours and
>> Michael's.  I found the coredump - multiple missing right parens on
>> line 1170.  Then I ran into another problem on line 430 and made an
>> educated guess with the fix.
>>
>> The new patch is here, and you'll need to apply it to the original
>> version of the program:
>> http://people.freebsd.org/~**glarkin/diffs/prog.bas.2.diff
>>
>> Hope that works,
>> Greg
>>
>
> Hi Chris and Greg,
>
> I have gone through the code and found a load more differences. I dont
> know if the sun and moon positions are correct though
> As a side note, the the first page of code on the PDF page number 5 is
> different from the PDF page number 34. I have used page numbers 34 -> 38 as
> my code reference.
>
> I have a patch file at 
> http://www.caspersworld.co.uk/**FreeBSD/basic.diff
>
> HTH
> Paul
>
>
>
Paul, which version did you patch for?  It doesn't seem to be the latest or
the original.  If you want to post the whole file.  I can figure out if you
are missing any of the other contributions out there.  I think there were a
total of three patches before yours.

Thanks, Paul
Chris Maness
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Re: Any BASIC Gurus around?

[Paul Wootton]

On 06/17/13 20:40, Greg Larkin wrote:

Hi Chris,

I prepared a new patch that incorporates my fixes, yours and
Michael's.  I found the coredump - multiple missing right parens on
line 1170.  Then I ran into another problem on line 430 and made an
educated guess with the fix.

The new patch is here, and you'll need to apply it to the original
version of the program:
http://people.freebsd.org/~glarkin/diffs/prog.bas.2.diff

Hope that works,
Greg


Hi Chris and Greg,

I have gone through the code and found a load more differences. I dont 
know if the sun and moon positions are correct though
As a side note, the the first page of code on the PDF page number 5 is 
different from the PDF page number 34. I have used page numbers 34 -> 38 
as my code reference.


I have a patch file at http://www.caspersworld.co.uk/FreeBSD/basic.diff

HTH
Paul


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Re: Any BASIC Gurus around?

[Julian H. Stacey]

> As you need max syntax checking from OCR, throw it at as many
> different basic interpreters/ compilers as you can, & inspect where
> each bleats, some error messages may be more & less usefull for
> different errors.
> 
> A friend of mine wrote a basic decades back, its in /usr/ports/lang/pbasic/

PS to find mis-matched brackets, try my 
http://www.berklix,com/~jhs/src/bsd/jhs/bin/public/brackets/

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: Any BASIC Gurus around?

[Julian H. Stacey]

Hi, Reference:
> From: Chris Maness  
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 13:52:47 -0700 

Chris Maness wrote:
> Here is a link to the USNO article that the BASIC program originated from:
> USNO171s.pdf <http://www.chrismaness.com/backend/USNO171s.pdf>
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris Maness

As you need max syntax checking from OCR, throw it at as many
different basic interpreters/ compilers as you can, & inspect where
each bleats, some error messages may be more & less usefull for
different errors.

A friend of mine wrote a basic decades back, its in /usr/ports/lang/pbasic/

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: Any BASIC Gurus around?

[Chris Maness]

Here is a link to the USNO article that the BASIC program originated from:
USNO171s.pdf <http://www.chrismaness.com/backend/USNO171s.pdf>

Thanks,
Chris Maness
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Re: Any BASIC Gurus around?

[Chris Maness]

On closer inspection it looks like the moons in the right spot, but the Sun
is in the wrong spot.  I will take a look and see if there is no error in
the lines that deal with the Sun's Az/El.  I have the original code that
was scanned from a USNO document.  The OCR was rather sloppy.  I will post
the original in a minute and send the link.

Thanks, again
Chris Maness


On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Chris Maness  wrote:

> Thanks a ton Greg, it works great.  The only thing I that seems to be an
> issue of I use Zulu time.  According to the ephemeris the time seems to be
> wrong when I use Zulu time.  I would have never been able to fix that
> program.  Thanks again.  I am going to load it on my NEC 8201A and see if
> it will run there :D
>
> Thanks,
> Chris Maness
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Greg Larkin  wrote:
>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 6/17/13 3:03 PM, Chris Maness wrote:
>> > Oops, here is another patch that includes a correction for the
>> > missing parenthesis that Michael Ross pointed out:
>> >
>> > --- sun.bas.orig2013-06-17 11:51:00.0 -0700 +++
>> > sun.bas2013-06-17 11:57:55.0 -0700 @@ -104,7 +104,7 @@ 1020
>> > ON N GOTO 1030, 1090 1030 IS=133775.*M/SK 1040 PRINT "SUN AZIMUTH
>> > (DEG.) ";AZ -1050 PRINT "SUN ALTITUDE (DOG.) ";HA +1050 PRINT "SUN
>> > ALTITUDE (DEG.) ";HA 1060 PRINT "SUN ILLUMINANCE (LUX) ";IS 1070
>> > N=2 1080 GOTO 940 @@ -200,7 +200,7 @@ 1980 DS=FNARCSIN(SD) 1990
>> > RETURN 2000 H=(A(L)-SI*SD)/(CI*COS(D))S -2010 IF ABS(H>1. THEN GOTO
>> > 2040 +2010 IF ABS(H)>1. THEN GOTO 2040 2020 H=FNARCOS(H)*RD/C 2030
>> > RETURN 2040 H=1.5
>> >
>> > Thanks, guys.  It will be cool if I can figure out why the
>> > interpreter is core dumping.
>> >
>> > Chris Maness
>>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> I prepared a new patch that incorporates my fixes, yours and
>> Michael's.  I found the coredump - multiple missing right parens on
>> line 1170.  Then I ran into another problem on line 430 and made an
>> educated guess with the fix.
>>
>> The new patch is here, and you'll need to apply it to the original
>> version of the program:
>> http://people.freebsd.org/~glarkin/diffs/prog.bas.2.diff
>>
>> Hope that works,
>> Greg
>>
>> - --
>> Greg Larkin
>>
>> http://www.FreeBSD.org/   - The Power To Serve
>> http://www.sourcehosting.net/ - Ready. Set. Code.
>> http://twitter.com/cpucycle/  - Follow you, follow me
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>>
>> iEYEARECAAYFAlG/ZiIACgkQ0sRouByUApAjVQCfYAWvfi7sJwa6+og+jcJDsrno
>> jaYAn1vqRecRUn8e1dqU9uI+TMlvjU3Q
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>
>
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Re: Any BASIC Gurus around?

[Greg Larkin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 6/17/13 3:03 PM, Chris Maness wrote:
> Oops, here is another patch that includes a correction for the
> missing parenthesis that Michael Ross pointed out:
> 
> --- sun.bas.orig2013-06-17 11:51:00.0 -0700 +++
> sun.bas2013-06-17 11:57:55.0 -0700 @@ -104,7 +104,7 @@ 1020
> ON N GOTO 1030, 1090 1030 IS=133775.*M/SK 1040 PRINT "SUN AZIMUTH
> (DEG.) ";AZ -1050 PRINT "SUN ALTITUDE (DOG.) ";HA +1050 PRINT "SUN
> ALTITUDE (DEG.) ";HA 1060 PRINT "SUN ILLUMINANCE (LUX) ";IS 1070
> N=2 1080 GOTO 940 @@ -200,7 +200,7 @@ 1980 DS=FNARCSIN(SD) 1990
> RETURN 2000 H=(A(L)-SI*SD)/(CI*COS(D))S -2010 IF ABS(H>1. THEN GOTO
> 2040 +2010 IF ABS(H)>1. THEN GOTO 2040 2020 H=FNARCOS(H)*RD/C 2030
> RETURN 2040 H=1.5
> 
> Thanks, guys.  It will be cool if I can figure out why the
> interpreter is core dumping.
> 
> Chris Maness

Hi Chris,

I prepared a new patch that incorporates my fixes, yours and
Michael's.  I found the coredump - multiple missing right parens on
line 1170.  Then I ran into another problem on line 430 and made an
educated guess with the fix.

The new patch is here, and you'll need to apply it to the original
version of the program:
http://people.freebsd.org/~glarkin/diffs/prog.bas.2.diff

Hope that works,
Greg

- -- 
Greg Larkin

http://www.FreeBSD.org/   - The Power To Serve
http://www.sourcehosting.net/ - Ready. Set. Code.
http://twitter.com/cpucycle/  - Follow you, follow me
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Re: Any BASIC Gurus around?

[Chris Maness]

Oops, here is another patch that includes a correction for the missing
parenthesis that Michael Ross pointed out:

--- sun.bas.orig 2013-06-17 11:51:00.0 -0700
+++ sun.bas 2013-06-17 11:57:55.0 -0700
@@ -104,7 +104,7 @@
 1020 ON N GOTO 1030, 1090
 1030 IS=133775.*M/SK
 1040 PRINT "SUN AZIMUTH (DEG.) ";AZ
-1050 PRINT "SUN ALTITUDE (DOG.) ";HA
+1050 PRINT "SUN ALTITUDE (DEG.) ";HA
 1060 PRINT "SUN ILLUMINANCE (LUX) ";IS
 1070 N=2
 1080 GOTO 940
@@ -200,7 +200,7 @@
 1980 DS=FNARCSIN(SD)
 1990 RETURN
 2000 H=(A(L)-SI*SD)/(CI*COS(D))S
-2010 IF ABS(H>1. THEN GOTO 2040
+2010 IF ABS(H)>1. THEN GOTO 2040
 2020 H=FNARCOS(H)*RD/C
 2030 RETURN
 2040 H=1.5

Thanks, guys.  It will be cool if I can figure out why the interpreter is
core dumping.

Chris Maness
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Re: Any BASIC Gurus around?

[Chris Maness]

Thanks a ton Greg.  It is crashing here too.  I am not sure as to the
cause.  I made a small patch to place on top of yours.  There is a typo
that outputs the sun position as DOG instead of DEG.  Here it is:

--- sun.bas.orig 2013-06-17 11:51:00.0 -0700
+++ sun.bas 2013-06-17 11:44:06.0 -0700
@@ -104,7 +104,7 @@
 1020 ON N GOTO 1030, 1090
 1030 IS=133775.*M/SK
 1040 PRINT "SUN AZIMUTH (DEG.) ";AZ
-1050 PRINT "SUN ALTITUDE (DOG.) ";HA
+1050 PRINT "SUN ALTITUDE (DEG.) ";HA
 1060 PRINT "SUN ILLUMINANCE (LUX) ";IS
 1070 N=2
 1080 GOTO 940

Regards,
Chris Maness


On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Greg Larkin  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 6/17/13 1:16 PM, Chris Maness wrote:
> > I am having trouble getting this old USNO basic program running in
> > bwBASIC. The error output is not clear to me where the problem is.
> > Here is the code, if someone wouldn't mind running it and
> > suggesting edits:
> >
>
> ...setting wayback machine to ca. 1979...
>
> Here is a patch to apply to your code that gets the program a little
> further: http://people.freebsd.org/~glarkin/diffs/prog.bas.diff
>
> There were some "O" characters that should have been "0" instead and
> at least a couple of Unicode characters that I removed.
>
> It prints out some results up to the moon illuminance, and then
> bwBasic core dumps, but maybe you'll be able to debug from there.
>
> Good luck,
> Greg
> - --
> Greg Larkin
>
> http://www.FreeBSD.org/   - The Power To Serve
> http://www.sourcehosting.net/ - Ready. Set. Code.
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Re: Any BASIC Gurus around?

[Michael Ross]

I'm no BASIC Guru,
but this one line caught my eye while scrolling through your mail:


2010 IF ABS(H>1. THEN GOTO 2040


Missing parenthesis?


Regards,

Michael
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Re: Any BASIC Gurus around?

[Greg Larkin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 6/17/13 1:16 PM, Chris Maness wrote:
> I am having trouble getting this old USNO basic program running in
> bwBASIC. The error output is not clear to me where the problem is.
> Here is the code, if someone wouldn't mind running it and
> suggesting edits:
> 

...setting wayback machine to ca. 1979...

Here is a patch to apply to your code that gets the program a little
further: http://people.freebsd.org/~glarkin/diffs/prog.bas.diff

There were some "O" characters that should have been "0" instead and
at least a couple of Unicode characters that I removed.

It prints out some results up to the moon illuminance, and then
bwBasic core dumps, but maybe you'll be able to debug from there.

Good luck,
Greg
- -- 
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Any BASIC Gurus around?

[Chris Maness]

I am having trouble getting this old USNO basic program running in bwBASIC.
 The error output is not clear to me where the problem is.  Here is the
code, if someone wouldn't mind running it and suggesting edits:

10 DEF FNARCOS(ARG)=1.570796-ATN(ARG/SQR(1.-ARG*ARG))
20 DEF FNARCSIN(ARG)=ATN(ARG/SQR(1.-ARG*ARG))
30 DEF FNDEG(ARG)=INT(ARG)+((ARG-INT(ARG))*1O.)/6.
40 DEF FNDMS(ARG)=INT(ARG)+6. * (ARG - INT(ARG)) / 10!
50 RD=57.29578
60 DR=1./RD
70 DIM A(4)
80 DIM B(2)
90 A(1)=-.01454
100 A(2)=-.10453
110 A(3)=-.20791
120 A(4)=.00233
130 CE=.91775
140 SE=.39715
150 INPUT "LONGITUDE IN DEG."; LO
160 LI=ABS(LO)
170 INPUT "LATITUDE IN DEG."; F
180 F=F*DR
190 S1=SIN(F)
200 CI=COS(F)
210 INPUT "YEAR (4 DIGITS)"; IY
220 INPUT "MONTH (NUMERAL)"; IM
230 INPUT "DAY (NUMERAL)"; ID
240 C=360.
250 J=367*IY-INT(7*(IY+INT((IM+9)/12))/4)+INT(275*IM/9)+ID-730531.
260 INPUT "UNIVERSAL TIME = 0, ZONE TIME = 1, LOCAL MEAN TIME = 2"; Z
270 DT=0.
280 IF Z=0. THEN LET DT=-LO/C
290 IF Z=1. THEN LET DT=-(LI-15*INT((LI+7.5)/15))/C*SGN(LO)
300 INPUT "HOUR (4 DIGIT NUMERAL ON 24 HOUR CLOCK)"; H
310 ZO#=J-.5
320 IF H>0 THEN GOTO 870
330 PRINT "DATA FOR ";IY; ", MONTH ";IM; ", DAY";ID
340 FOR L=1 TO 4
350 ON L GOTO 370, 650, 650, 360
360 C=347.81
370 M=.5+DT
380 K=1
390 M=M-DT
400 E=M-LO/360.
410 GOSUB 430
420 GOTO 530
430 D#-ZO#+E
440 IF ABS(E)>=1 THEN LET E=E-SGN(E)
450 GOSUB 1220
460 IF L=4 THEN GOSUB 1720
470 T=T+LO+360.*E
480 T=T-INT(T/360.)*360.
490 U=T-AS
500 IF ABS(U) > 180! THEN LET U=U-360.*SGN(U)
510 U=U/C
520 RETURN
530 M=M-U+DT
540 IF L<4 THEN LET K=K+1
550 ON K GOTO 600,560,600,580,600,620
560 IF M>=O. AND M<1. THEN GOTO 620
570 GOTO 590
580 IF M>=O. THEN GOTO 620
590 M=M-SGN(M)
600 K=K+1
610 GOTO 390
620 H=FNARCSIN(COS(F-DS))*RD
630 IF L=4 THEN LET H=H-.95*COS(H)
640 GOSUB 2160
650 GOSUB 2000
660 B(1)=M-H
670 B(2)=M+H
680 FOR I=1 TO 2
690 K=2*I-3
700 FOR N=1 TO 6
710 B(I)=B(I)-DT
720 E=B(I)-LO/360.
730 GOSUB 430
740 GOSUB 2000
750 B(I)=B(I)+K*H-U+DT
760 IF L<4 THEN LET N=N+1
770 ON N GOTO 820,780,820,800,820,830
780 IF B(I)>=O. AND B(I)<1. THEN GOTO 830
790 GOTO 810
800 IF B(I)>=O. THEN GOTO 830
810 B(I)=B(I)-SGN(B(I))
820 NEXT N
830 NEXT I
840 ON L GOSUB 1350,1400,1400,1610
850 NEXT L
860 GOTO 150
870 INPUT"SKY CONDITION = 1,2,3,10,";SK
880 PRINT"DATA FOR ";IY;", MONTH ";IM;", DAY ";ID;", AT ";H;" HOURS"
890 E=FNDEG(H/100.)/24.-DT-LO/360.
900 D#=ZO#+E
910 N=1
920 GOSUB 1220
930 T=T+360.*E+LO
940 IF N=2 THEN GOSUB 1720
950 H=T-AS
960 GOSUB 2060
970 Z=H*DR
980 H=H-.95*(N-1)*COS(H*DR)
990 GOSUB 2160
1000 GOSUB 2200
1010 HA=INT(ABS(HA)+.5)*SGN(HA)
1020 ON N GOTO 1030, 1090
1030 IS=133775.*M/SK
1040 PRINT"SUN AZIMUTH (DEG.) ";AZ
1050 PRINT"SUN ALTITUDE (DOG.) ";HA
1060 PRINT"SUN ILLUMINANCE (LUX) ";IS
1070 N=2
1080 GOTO 940
1090 E=FNARCOS(COS(V-LS)*CB)
1100 P=.892*EXP(-3.343/((TAN(E/2.))^.632))+.0344*(SIN(E)-E*COS(E))
1110 P=.418*P/(1.-.005*COS(E)-.03*SIN(Z))
1120 IL=P*M/SK
1130 IS=IS+IL+.0005/SK
1140 PRINT"MOON AZIMUTH (DEG.) ";AZ
1150 PRINT"MOON ALTITUDE (DEG.) ";HA
1160 PRINT"MOON ILLUMINANCE (LUX) ";IL
1170 IL=INT(50.*(1.-COS(E»+.5)
1180 PRINT" (";IL;"% OF MOON ILLUMINATED)"
1190 PRINT"TOTAL ILLUMINANCE (LUX) ";IS
1200 GOTO 300
1210 END
1220 TD#=280.46#+.98565#*D#
1230 T=TD#-INT(TD#/360#)*360#
1240 IF T=4800. OR R1. THEN GOTO 2040
2020 H=FNARCOS(H)*RD/C
2030 RETURN
2040 H=1.5
2050 RETURN
2060 CD=COS(PS)
2070 CS=COS(H*DR)
2080 Q=SD*CI-CD*SI*CS
2090 P=-CD*SIN(H*DR)
2100 AZ=ATN(P/Q)*RD
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Re: Basic i5/i7 Motherboard Suggestion..

[Warren Block]

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012, Pierre-Luc Drouin wrote:


I am looking to build a simple i5 or i7 CPU-based desktop computer that is
compatible with FreeBSD. Could someone suggest me a sub $200 motherboard
whose chipsets and BIOS works well with FreeBSD? I would prefer to stick
with either Intel or Asus if possible...


Gigabyte Z68A-D3H-B3 working well with an i5 here.  Using a PCIe Radeon, 
I have not tried the Intel GPU yet.

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Re: Basic i5/i7 Motherboard Suggestion..

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

On Thursday, July 12, 2012 09:04:37 AM Pierre-Luc Drouin wrote:
> 
> I am looking to build a simple i5 or i7 CPU-based desktop computer that is
> compatible with FreeBSD. Could someone suggest me a sub $200 motherboard
> whose chipsets and BIOS works well with FreeBSD? I would prefer to stick
> with either Intel or Asus if possible...

I have an i7 wich uses the integrated GPU. I am not so happy about this 
compared to the nVidea external GPU I use with an AMD CPU.

Check carefully the list to find out if you can live with the current status of 
Intel KMS if you have to use it.

I would not consider MSI as they are the people who once delivered motherboards 
with a short life time.

Asus was also my first choice for the motherboard.

Erich
> 
> Thanks!
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Re: Basic i5/i7 Motherboard Suggestion..

[Thomas Mueller]

from Pierre-Luc Drouin :

> I am looking to build a simple i5 or i7 CPU-based desktop computer that is
> compatible with FreeBSD. Could someone suggest me a sub $200 motherboard
> whose chipsets and BIOS works well with FreeBSD? I would prefer to stick
> with either Intel or Asus if possible...

MSI is also good with motherboards.  I built a new computer from parts June 
2011.

Motherboard was MSI Z68MA-ED55(B3), has served well so far, and works with 
FreeBSD much better than NetBSD, though NetBSD's problems could be due to other 
deficiencies, including lack of USB 3.0 support.

CPU is Intel i7 at 2600 MHz.

This motherboard has USB 3.0 and UEFI "Click BIOS".

MSI would have newer models now.

Tom
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Basic i5/i7 Motherboard Suggestion..

[Pierre-Luc Drouin]

Hi,

I am looking to build a simple i5 or i7 CPU-based desktop computer that is
compatible with FreeBSD. Could someone suggest me a sub $200 motherboard
whose chipsets and BIOS works well with FreeBSD? I would prefer to stick
with either Intel or Asus if possible...

Thanks!
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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Chad Perrin]

On Mon, Jun 07, 2010 at 09:31:05AM -0700, Chip Camden wrote:
> 
> I'd also like to publicly thank you on this list for encouraging me to
> try FreeBSD.  I absolutely love it.

I consider it a service to mankind to encourage more people using better,
and better-licensed, software.  You're welcome, and I'm pleased as punch
it's working out so well for you.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Chad Perrin]

On Mon, Jun 07, 2010 at 08:26:04PM +0200, Polytropon wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 22:06:07 -0600, Chad Perrin  wrote:
> 
> > I've never really tried using vi-mode editing in any shell, despite the
> > fact I'm a constant vi user (even a vi gangsta, one might say).  Maybe I
> > should some day.  Thus far, though, I don't even know if tcsh supports
> > vi-mode editing.
> 
> According to "man csh", it is possible:
> 
>The command-line editor (+)
>Command-line  input  can  be edited using key sequences much like those
>used in GNU Emacs or vi(1).  The editor is active only  when  the  edit
>shell  variable  is  set, which it is by default in interactive shells.
>The bindkey builtin can display and change key  bindings.   Emacs-style
>key  bindings are used by default (unless the shell was compiled other-
>wise; see the version shell variable), but bindkey can change  the  key
>bindings to vi-style bindings en masse.

Excellent!  I don't have to wait until I get off my tuckus to look it up
now.  Thank for feeding my laziness.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Polytropon]

On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 22:06:07 -0600, Chad Perrin  wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 06, 2010 at 10:06:28AM -1000, p...@pair.com wrote:
> > 
> > I cannot say about the tcsh features.
> 
> That's kind of a shame, since tcsh is what I prefer these days, having
> long since given up on bash (pretty much immediately after I started
> using FreeBSD as my primary OS instead of bash, and realized I preferred
> the csh-style syntax).

I may use this chance to add that I'm also a fan of FreeBSD's csh
especially from the standpoint of dialog behaviour. For example,
autocompletition is - in my opinion - much better than in bash
(which does force too much interaction).

Example:

$ ls /usr/local/bin/m[tab]
BEEP!
*** [tab]
Display all 146 possibilities? (y or n)
*** y
mDNSClientPosix*moc-qt4*
mDNSIdentify*   modutil*
--More--(1%)
*** q
$ ls /usr/local/bin/m

The "***" marks all unneccessary interaction that interrupts
work flow.

Also, csh's history behaviour is better - again in my opinion.
For example, if you enter "bl" and press the up / down arrow keys,
you can browse all commands that started with "bl", e. g. "bla", 
"bli", "blubb", "blonk" and so on. In bash, you would browse
through *all* commands using the same approach.

I am aware of the fact that most shell behaviour can be configured
or reprogrammed, but I'm just talking about the default settings.



> I've never really tried using vi-mode editing in any shell, despite the
> fact I'm a constant vi user (even a vi gangsta, one might say).  Maybe I
> should some day.  Thus far, though, I don't even know if tcsh supports
> vi-mode editing.

According to "man csh", it is possible:

   The command-line editor (+)
   Command-line  input  can  be edited using key sequences much like those
   used in GNU Emacs or vi(1).  The editor is active only  when  the  edit
   shell  variable  is  set, which it is by default in interactive shells.
   The bindkey builtin can display and change key  bindings.   Emacs-style
   key  bindings are used by default (unless the shell was compiled other-
   wise; see the version shell variable), but bindkey can change  the  key
   bindings to vi-style bindings en masse.




-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Chip Camden]

On Jun 06 2010 22:00, Chad Perrin wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 06, 2010 at 11:32:58AM -0700, Chip Camden wrote:
> > > 
> > I was a tcsh user before switching to zsh.  But I was raised on the
> > Bourne Shell, and used Korn shell a lot in the 90s.  The C-shell versions
> > of control flow commands always tripped me up, even though they're
> > arguably more sane -- just because the sh versions flow off the
> > fingertips.  So sh-compatibility was my main reason, but I like the
> > features of csh that zsh cherry-picked.
> 
> Given my preference for (t)csh syntax over sh syntax for an interactive
> shell, I guess that doesn't give me a whole lot of motivation to try it
> out.  Another response to my question discusses some other benefits,
> though. . . .
> 
> Thanks for your perspective.
> 

My pleasure, Chad.  If I had learned csh first, I'd probably stick with
tcsh myself.

I'd also like to publicly thank you on this list for encouraging me to
try FreeBSD.  I absolutely love it.

-- 
Sterling (Chip) Camden | camdensoftware.com | chipstips.com | chipsquips.com
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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Giorgos Keramidas]

On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:57:51 -0400, Jerry  wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 14:19:08 +0300
> Giorgos Keramidas  articulated:
>> You can always install bash with "pkg_add".  The default package is
>> not built as a static binary, but you can compile a static bash
>> binary from its port:
>>
>> # cd /usr/ports/shells/bash
>> # make WITH_STATIC_BASH=1 install clean
>
> I thought that was what this port was for:
>
> Port:   bash-static-4.1.5_2
> Path:   /usr/ports/shells/bash-static
> Info:   The GNU Project's Bourne Again SHell

Yes, that's what bash-static enables.

I only mentioned WITH_STATIC_BASH because it's what I usually prefer to
avoid gettext/libintl.so troubles when portupgrade is still half-done
and I want to open a new screen window or xterm.

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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Chad Perrin]

On Sun, Jun 06, 2010 at 10:06:28AM -1000, p...@pair.com wrote:
> 
> I cannot say about the tcsh features.

That's kind of a shame, since tcsh is what I prefer these days, having
long since given up on bash (pretty much immediately after I started
using FreeBSD as my primary OS instead of bash, and realized I preferred
the csh-style syntax).


> 
> I switched from bash to zsh mainly for excellent vi-mode editing
> support, more so over multiple lines.  ksh & bash were horrible in
> that respect.

I've never really tried using vi-mode editing in any shell, despite the
fact I'm a constant vi user (even a vi gangsta, one might say).  Maybe I
should some day.  Thus far, though, I don't even know if tcsh supports
vi-mode editing.


> 
> Recently I have found that regular expression like [a-d] (instead of
> {a,b,c,d}) in file name generation work as expected.  zsh has more
> ways to help file name generation which I have not looked into yet.
> 
> And of course, as stated earlier, compatibility between a bourne
> shell script & an interactive shell helps immensely while
> developing|debugging a script.

This is another area where I just haven't run into the need for that sort
of thing.  When I use a regex at the command prompt, it's via grep,
basically -- I don't tend to get more fancy than something like globbing.
For scripting, I stick to sh and "real" programming languages like Perl
and Ruby.  I'm not terribly clear on tcsh's regex support, and I guess if
I needed shell compatibility when writing a shell script (which, for me,
is usually just a batch file, perhaps with a little flow control and a
variable or two) I can always just start sh.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Chad Perrin]

On Sun, Jun 06, 2010 at 11:32:58AM -0700, Chip Camden wrote:
> > 
> I was a tcsh user before switching to zsh.  But I was raised on the
> Bourne Shell, and used Korn shell a lot in the 90s.  The C-shell versions
> of control flow commands always tripped me up, even though they're
> arguably more sane -- just because the sh versions flow off the
> fingertips.  So sh-compatibility was my main reason, but I like the
> features of csh that zsh cherry-picked.

Given my preference for (t)csh syntax over sh syntax for an interactive
shell, I guess that doesn't give me a whole lot of motivation to try it
out.  Another response to my question discusses some other benefits,
though. . . .

Thanks for your perspective.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[parv]

in message <20100606182148.gb28...@guilt.hydra>,
wrote Chad Perrin thusly...
...
> > > On Sat, Jun 05, 2010 at 04:17:15PM -0700, Chip Camden wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I like zsh, because it's sh-compatible, brings in a lot of
> > > > the good ideas from csh/tcsh, and the license appears to be
> > > > copyfree rather than copyleft.
...
> I'm curious about why you prefer zsh for an interactive shell.
> What zsh features would you miss if you used tcsh instead (what
> I've been using)?
>
> I'm always willing to be convinced to try something better.

I cannot say about the tcsh features.

I switched from bash to zsh mainly for excellent vi-mode editing
support, more so over multiple lines.  ksh & bash were horrible in
that respect.

Recently I have found that regular expression like [a-d] (instead of
{a,b,c,d}) in file name generation work as expected.  zsh has more
ways to help file name generation which I have not looked into yet.

And of course, as stated earlier, compatibility between a bourne
shell script & an interactive shell helps immensely while
developing|debugging a script.


  - parv

-- 

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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Chip Camden]

On Jun 06 2010 12:21, Chad Perrin wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 06, 2010 at 10:50:43AM -0700, Chip Camden wrote:
> > On Jun 06 2010 10:31, Chad Perrin wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jun 05, 2010 at 04:17:15PM -0700, Chip Camden wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > I like zsh, because it's sh-compatible, brings in a lot of the good 
> > > > ideas
> > > > from csh/tcsh, and the license appears to be copyfree rather than 
> > > > copyleft.
> > > 
> > > Do you use that as your interactive shell, for scripting, or both?
> > 
> > Interactive only.  For scripting, I stick to sh unless it gets too complex 
> > --
> > then I jump to Ruby.
> 
> I'm curious about why you prefer zsh for an interactive shell.  What zsh
> features would you miss if you used tcsh instead (what I've been using)?
> 
> I'm always willing to be convinced to try something better.
> 
I was a tcsh user before switching to zsh.  But I was raised on the
Bourne Shell, and used Korn shell a lot in the 90s.  The C-shell versions
of control flow commands always tripped me up, even though they're
arguably more sane -- just because the sh versions flow off the
fingertips.  So sh-compatibility was my main reason, but I like the
features of csh that zsh cherry-picked.
-- 
Sterling (Chip) Camden | camdensoftware.com | chipstips.com | chipsquips.com
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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Chad Perrin]

On Sun, Jun 06, 2010 at 10:50:43AM -0700, Chip Camden wrote:
> On Jun 06 2010 10:31, Chad Perrin wrote:
> > On Sat, Jun 05, 2010 at 04:17:15PM -0700, Chip Camden wrote:
> > > 
> > > I like zsh, because it's sh-compatible, brings in a lot of the good ideas
> > > from csh/tcsh, and the license appears to be copyfree rather than 
> > > copyleft.
> > 
> > Do you use that as your interactive shell, for scripting, or both?
> 
> Interactive only.  For scripting, I stick to sh unless it gets too complex --
> then I jump to Ruby.

I'm curious about why you prefer zsh for an interactive shell.  What zsh
features would you miss if you used tcsh instead (what I've been using)?

I'm always willing to be convinced to try something better.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Chip Camden]

On Jun 06 2010 10:31, Chad Perrin wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 05, 2010 at 04:17:15PM -0700, Chip Camden wrote:
> > 
> > I like zsh, because it's sh-compatible, brings in a lot of the good ideas
> > from csh/tcsh, and the license appears to be copyfree rather than copyleft.
> 
> Do you use that as your interactive shell, for scripting, or both?
> 

Interactive only.  For scripting, I stick to sh unless it gets too complex --
then I jump to Ruby.
> 
> > 
> > man zsh to see that there are so many features they had to break up the
> > man pages.
> 
> That's kind of scary.

True, and it shows in its initial virtual size:

sterling   62630  0.0  0.0  8264  1804   0  I10:42AM   0:00.00 sh
sterling   62733  0.0  0.1 10284  2932   0  I10:42AM   0:00.01 csh
sterling   62791  0.0  0.1 10284  2848   0  I10:43AM   0:00.01 tcsh
sterling   70731  0.0  0.1 14580  4324   0  I10:46AM   0:00.05 zsh
sterling   71773  0.0  0.1 10220  2908   0  I+   10:46AM   0:00.01 bash

But on a laptop with 4GB, I don't miss it.

-- 
Sterling (Chip) Camden | camdensoftware.com | chipstips.com | chipsquips.com
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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Chad Perrin]

On Sat, Jun 05, 2010 at 04:17:15PM -0700, Chip Camden wrote:
> 
> I like zsh, because it's sh-compatible, brings in a lot of the good ideas
> from csh/tcsh, and the license appears to be copyfree rather than copyleft.

Do you use that as your interactive shell, for scripting, or both?


> 
> man zsh to see that there are so many features they had to break up the
> man pages.

That's kind of scary.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Jerry]

On Sun, 06 Jun 2010 14:19:08 +0300
Giorgos Keramidas  articulated:


> You can always install bash with "pkg_add".  The default package is
> not built as a static binary, but you can compile a static bash
> binary from its port:
> 
> # cd /usr/ports/shells/bash
> # make WITH_STATIC_BASH=1 install clean

I thought that was what this port was for:

Port:   bash-static-4.1.5_2
Path:   /usr/ports/shells/bash-static
Info:   The GNU Project's Bourne Again SHell


-- 
Jerry
freebsd.u...@seibercom.net

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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Giorgos Keramidas]

On Sat, 5 Jun 2010 22:35:09 +, Giorgos Tsiapaliokas  
wrote:
> hello,
> i am coming from the linux world where i was using the bash shell but
> i found out that there are also much more.
>
> can u tell me the basic differences between them?(pros and cons)

It isn't humanly possible to write *all* the differences of *all* the
shells in a single email reply.  But you can find a good table that
compares various shells in Wikipedia:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_command_shells

In a FreeBSD context there are also a few more things to consider when
comparing shells:

  * Is the shell part of the base system or a port/package?

  * Is the shell well maintained?

  * Does the shell depend on many other ports or none at all?

  * Does the shell support building static-only copies?  This is useful
if you want to upgrade the base system without breaking the login
shell you are using every day.

Having said that, here are a few personal notes from my own experience
with shells on FreeBSD...

The /bin/sh and /bin/csh shells are part of the base system, so they are
rebuilt as part of the normal buildworld process.  The big advantage of
using a shell that is part of the base system is that it's always
there.  Any shell scripts or code you write that uses these shells will
have a great chance of running on ANY FreeBSD system out there.  That's
where traditionalism stops and personal preference jumps in though...

I don't like using csh(1) for a lot of things.  It syntax makes me
cringe, even though it's a mostly "ok" interactive shell.  So I always
install at least bash and mksh on my systems.

There is no bash shell in the *base* system of FreeBSD.  But there are
many ports for command shells, and bash is part of these:

# cd /usr/ports/shells
44bsd-csh   dashjailkit pdksh   tcshrc
Makefilees  ksh93   pear-PHP_Shell  v7sh
bashesh lshell  psh viewglob
bash-completion fd  mkshrc  vshnu
bash-static fishnologinmsg  rsshwapsh
bash3   flash   osh sashzoidberg
bash3-staticgscommander p5-Shell-Perl   scponly zsh
bashc   heirloom-sh p5-Term-ShellUI shell-include
ch  ibshpashtcsh_nls
#

You can always install bash with "pkg_add".  The default package is not
built as a static binary, but you can compile a static bash binary from
its port:

# cd /usr/ports/shells/bash
# make WITH_STATIC_BASH=1 install clean

The bash shell depends on two other ports: gettext and libiconv.  These
are not large ports, but it is often a good idea to have a shell around
that only depends on libc.

This is why I also install 'shells/mksh' on my systems.  It's the ksh
compatible shell of the MirOS BSD folks.  It has a small foot-print, a
ksh-compatible syntax, and it depends only on libc.so:

keram...@kobe:/home/keramida$ ldd `which mksh`
/usr/local/bin/mksh:
libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x280c9000)

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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Charlie Kester]

On Sat 05 Jun 2010 at 16:24:36 PDT Alejandro Imass wrote:

On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Giorgos Tsiapaliokas  wrote:

hello,
i am coming from the linux world where i was using the bash shell but i
found out that there are also much more.
can u tell me the basic differences between them?(pros and cons)



Too broad a topic I suspect fo u to get an answer here. In FBSD the
base system is completely separate from the applications, that is
really great because for example your system upgrades are
independendent of applications / ports. The base shell is in the base
system so don't replace the shell for the root user but rather start
bash from your root account if you wish. This will make sense when
your system breaks in an upgrade for example.

For everything else you can safely use bash and choose bash for your
normal users. I use bash all the time even for root, but in the latter
case I start it manually.


Definitely too broad a topic for a mailing list.

Probably the best way to approach it is to look first at the Bourne
shelli (sh), which probably has the smallest and simplest set of
features.

The C shell (csh) is, as the name suggests, more like the C programming
language.  It was developed at UC Berkeley, and thus has always had a
close association with BSD. One of the major innovations introduced by
the C shell is *history*.  

tcsh is an enhanced but completely compatible version of csh.  


The Korn shell (ksh) combined many features from the C shell with the
functionality of the Bourne shell.  Among the many new features
introduced by the Korn shell are pattern-based variable substitution,
e.g.  ${varname%%pattern}.

Bash picks up where the Korn shell leaves off, and adds even more
features.

More features usually means increased size and sometimes slower
execution.  In fact, if you look at the manpage for bash, the first
sentence in the last section ("BUGS") is a frank admission that "It's
too big and too slow."

It's also too GPL-encumbered for many BSD folk.  You can get many of the
same features in a lighterweight package, with a friendlier license, by
going with one of the Korn shells instead. I've been using shells/mksh
from ports after having it recommended to me in the forums, and I've
been very satisfied with it.




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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Alejandro Imass]

On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Giorgos Tsiapaliokas  wrote:
> hello,
> i am coming from the linux world where i was using the bash shell but i
> found out that there are also much more.
> can u tell me the basic differences between them?(pros and cons)
>

Too broad a topic I suspect fo u to get an answer here. In FBSD the
base system is completely separate from the applications, that is
really great because for example your system upgrades are
independendent of applications / ports. The base shell is in the base
system so don't replace the shell for the root user but rather start
bash from your root account if you wish. This will make sense when
your system breaks in an upgrade for example.

For everything else you can safely use bash and choose bash for your
normal users. I use bash all the time even for root, but in the latter
case I start it manually.

Best,
Alejandro Imass


> thanks in advance
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Re: which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Chip Camden]

On Jun 05 2010 22:35, Giorgos Tsiapaliokas wrote:
> hello,
> i am coming from the linux world where i was using the bash shell but i
> found out that there are also much more.
> can u tell me the basic differences between them?(pros and cons)
> 
> thanks in advance
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I like zsh, because it's sh-compatible, brings in a lot of the good ideas
from csh/tcsh, and the license appears to be copyfree rather than copyleft.

man zsh to see that there are so many features they had to break up the
man pages.

-- 
Sterling (Chip) Camden | camdensoftware.com | chipstips.com | chipsquips.com
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which is the basic differences between the shells?

[Giorgos Tsiapaliokas]

hello,
i am coming from the linux world where i was using the bash shell but i
found out that there are also much more.
can u tell me the basic differences between them?(pros and cons)

thanks in advance
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Re: Help understanding basic FreeBSD concepts (ports, updates, jails)

[Polytropon]

On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 10:57:54 -0600, Adam Vande More  
wrote:
> There are three basic branches, CURRENT STABLE RELEASE
> 
> You want release.  You shouldn't run anything else unless you're willing and
> able to help with testing, debugging, and development.

That's a quite generic answer, but basically I agree.

On a production system, in most cases RELEASE is the branch
you want to follow, beginning from X.Y-RELEASE and then
tacking the security updates X.Y-RELEASE-pZ. The tool
freebsd-update is very good for this task, especially
when you're not running a custom kernel.

STABLE is a good solution when you want to use a stable
system, but are interested in additions between the releases.
Things that are tested and found working are present in
STABLE and will often appear in the upcoming RELEASE.

CURRENT is interesting for you - as Adam said - for
testing and development, and if you are intendedly
interested in "bleeding edge" software. Note that it
can happen that a CURRENT system of today won't build,
but will tomorrow. It's the development branch.

In any case: You should re-install or re-compile ALL of
your applications when you perform the step to a new
release (e. g. 7.2 -> 8.0). You can install the 7-compat
port to avoid this (downward compatibility libraries).




-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: Help understanding basic FreeBSD concepts (ports, updates, jails)

[Robert Huff]

andrew clarke writes:

>  > Don't bother with any of that. Just use portsnap. It's also part of
>  > base, and was written by the same person that wrote freebsd-update.
>  > It's lovely and much faster, although some people may argue with me on
>  > that.
>  
>  > For your system, use freebsd-update.
>  
>  Seconded.  Portsnap and freebsd-update are a cinch to use.

As for freebsd-update:
It has limitations; /inter alia/ see the DESCRIPTION section of
the man page.  If that's something one can live with, use it.
If it's not, then the OP really needs to get familiar with the
update-from-source method as described in the Handbook.  It's scary
at first (actually, it's still a teeny bit scary after ten years).
but it helps one understand what goes into making a working system
... which is a really good thing if something does manage to go
Horribly Wrong(tm).


Robert Huff

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Re: Help understanding basic FreeBSD concepts (ports, updates, jails)

[andrew clarke]

On Sat 2009-11-07 19:19:52 UTC-0800, Randi Harper (ra...@freebsd.org) wrote:

> Don't bother with any of that. Just use portsnap. It's also part of
> base, and was written by the same person that wrote freebsd-update.
> It's lovely and much faster, although some people may argue with me on
> that.

> For your system, use freebsd-update.

Seconded.  Portsnap and freebsd-update are a cinch to use.

> For your ports tree, use portsnap. For installed ports, use
> portupgrade or portmanager. I'm more fond of portmanager, but it seems
> portupgrade has many more users. Both portupgrade and portmanager are
> available in the ports tree, not base.

I use portmaster and find it easy to use.  Not familiar with portmanager.
/usr/ports/UPDATING will often provide portmaster commands where
necessary and these can useful for upgrading some ports.  Maybe it's
easy to translate those commands to their equivalent portmanager commands.

Regards
Andrew
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Re: Help understanding basic FreeBSD concepts (ports, updates, jails)

[Randi Harper]

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 9:31 AM, Roger  wrote:

>
> My second concerned is the ports. In the file "ports-supfile" there is
> one option, "*default release=cvs tag=.".
> I believe this specifies which cvs tag to use when pulling files from
> the ports. At one point I had "*default release=cvs
> tag=RELEASE_7_2_0".
> When I pulled the ports using the "RELEASE_7_2_0" tag and tried to
> build "portsupgrade" the installation failed because the ruby version
> that was going to be installed I believe had a security problem. (I
> love the fact that I was stopped from installing software that is
> KNOWN to be vulnerable).
> I figured that maybe I needed to get the latest version. So I went
> ahead and changed the cvs tag to "." (which I believe means the head
> version).
>

Don't bother with any of that. Just use portsnap. It's also part of base,
and was written by the same person that wrote freebsd-update. It's lovely
and much faster, although some people may argue with me on that.


I updated the ports and then tried the installation again, this time
> the installation went further but failed again due to the fact that
> my libtool (I can't remember the exact name) was older than what the
> installation required. So that threw me off.
> I believe that libtool is part of the base system and not the ports,
> correct?
>  So that made me think that maybe because of using the latest version
> of the ports I can build certain ports if my base is not
> concurrent (in terms of what the ports requires and what my system
> offers) with the port system.
> So my question is this, if my FreeBSD release is 7.2-RELEASE-p4 which
> tag should I set for the ports system?
> Should I put the tag "RELEASE_7_2_0" and then wait for a security fix
> of the particular port (ruby) and then proceed to install?
> What is the recommended approach if your aim is to have your system up
> to date and stable?
>


For your system, use freebsd-update. For your ports tree, use portsnap. For
installed ports, use portupgrade or portmanager. I'm more fond of
portmanager, but it seems portupgrade has many more users. Both portupgrade
and portmanager are available in the ports tree, not base.

-- randi
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Re: Help understanding basic FreeBSD concepts (ports, updates, jails)

[Roger]

On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Frank Shute  wrote:

> You mentioned lsof but there is a utility in base which you probably
> don't know about called fstat(1), which does a lot of what lsof does.
>

Thank you for the tip. I will definitely look into it.

> IIRC, the sources for 7.2 should be on the CD (run sysinstall(8) after
> sticking the CD in). That will save you from downloading all the
> sources.
>
> Then update the sources with csup(1) using the correct tag: RELENG_7_2
>
> There's a supfile, /usr/share/examples/cvsup/standard-supfile, which
> you can change the default host and cvs tag of and it should work.
>
> http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/cvsup.html
>
> goes into the details.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> --
>
>  Frank
>
>  Contact info: http://www.shute.org.uk/misc/contact.html
>
>
>
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Re: Help understanding basic FreeBSD concepts (ports, updates, jails)

[Frank Shute]

On Sat, Nov 07, 2009 at 11:39:41AM -0500, Roger wrote:
>
> Hello all,
> 
> I have another concept that I'm confused about, the source distribution.
> Some ports, like "lsof" require the existence of /usr/src.
> What I don't understand is which version to use to keep synchronized
> with the production release.
> When the installed was performed the release was 7.2 but after doing
> "freebsd-update" the release is now
> 7.2-p4. According to the documentation, I can track CURRENT, STABLE plus 
> other.
> Which one is the recommended one for a production server. I have not
> build that many
> packages that need the sources present so now would be a good time to
> find out which one
> I should use.
> 
> Thank you for your time and patience,
> 
> -r

You mentioned lsof but there is a utility in base which you probably
don't know about called fstat(1), which does a lot of what lsof does.

IIRC, the sources for 7.2 should be on the CD (run sysinstall(8) after
sticking the CD in). That will save you from downloading all the
sources.

Then update the sources with csup(1) using the correct tag: RELENG_7_2

There's a supfile, /usr/share/examples/cvsup/standard-supfile, which
you can change the default host and cvs tag of and it should work.

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/cvsup.html

goes into the details.


Regards,

-- 

 Frank

 Contact info: http://www.shute.org.uk/misc/contact.html


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Re: Help understanding basic FreeBSD concepts (ports, updates, jails)

[Michael Powell]

Roger wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> I have another concept that I'm confused about, the source distribution.
> Some ports, like "lsof" require the existence of /usr/src.
> What I don't understand is which version to use to keep synchronized
> with the production release.
> When the installed was performed the release was 7.2 but after doing
> "freebsd-update" the release is now
> 7.2-p4. 

A RELEASE such as 7.2 has a maintenance period during which the security 
team will apply security patches to the OS. Only the patches are applied, 
the rest of the bulk of /usr/src is untouched. This is what the -p4 means. 
The security support period for different releases can be located on the web 
site. Some releases are designated "extended support", while others have 
shorter time frames.


> According to the documentation, I can track CURRENT, STABLE plus
> other. Which one is the recommended one for a production server. I have
> not build that many
> packages that need the sources present so now would be a good time to
> find out which one
> I should use.
> 

I don't use the binary freebsd-update myself, but still use the old csup the 
source in /usr/src and the make buildworld/buildkernel/install dance. So I 
tend to think in terms of CVS tags. The tag RELENG_7_2_0_RELEASE would fetch 
the original release bits that never change. The tag RELENG_7_2 would fetch 
the /usr/src that has the security patches applied.

The -p4 you observed means that freebsd-update used binaries built with 
security patches applied. If there exists any question as to whether your 
/usr/src is in sync you can simply csup your source with the RELENG_7_2 tag 
in the supfile.

There is also another way to patch, and that is to apply patches manually. 
Let's say, for example, the built in bind had a file or two that got 
patched. You could rebuild just this one thing and after installing the bits 
simply restart the daemon. Sometimes this is preferred when one needs to 
prevent a security hole but doesn't want to reboot a server. A downside is 
when you do this it does not register the "-p4" like you noticed.

For a production server I feel it is best to use production release. IMHO 
there is one possible cause to consider STABLE for a production server and 
that is if there is new code "Merged From Current" that addresses and 
corrects a very specific problem. Let's say you have a particular NIC in 
your server that is exhibiting an exact same (and reproducible) condition as 
described in a bug report. If code which fixes this exact problem becomes 
available it will be written in CURRENT, and after some testing if deemed to 
be of sufficient quality it will be merged back to STABLE. Upgrading to 
STABLE will then pull in this fix. IMHO I wouldn't normally consider this 
unless there is an exact match between problem and fix.

-Mike


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Re: Help understanding basic FreeBSD concepts (ports, updates, jails)

[Adam Vande More]

On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 10:39 AM, Roger  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I have another concept that I'm confused about, the source distribution.
> Some ports, like "lsof" require the existence of /usr/src.
> What I don't understand is which version to use to keep synchronized
> with the production release.
> When the installed was performed the release was 7.2 but after doing
> "freebsd-update" the release is now
> 7.2-p4. According to the documentation, I can track CURRENT, STABLE plus
> other.
> Which one is the recommended one for a production server. I have not
> build that many
> packages that need the sources present so now would be a good time to
> find out which one
> I should use.
>
> Thank you for your time and patience,
>
>
There are three basic branches, CURRENT STABLE RELEASE

You want release.  You shouldn't run anything else unless you're willing and
able to help with testing, debugging, and development.

-- 
Adam Vande More
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Re: Help understanding basic FreeBSD concepts (ports, updates, jails)

[Roger]

Hello all,

I have another concept that I'm confused about, the source distribution.
Some ports, like "lsof" require the existence of /usr/src.
What I don't understand is which version to use to keep synchronized
with the production release.
When the installed was performed the release was 7.2 but after doing
"freebsd-update" the release is now
7.2-p4. According to the documentation, I can track CURRENT, STABLE plus other.
Which one is the recommended one for a production server. I have not
build that many
packages that need the sources present so now would be a good time to
find out which one
I should use.

Thank you for your time and patience,

-r
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Re: basic

[andrew clarke]

On Wed 2009-05-06 14:32:47 UTC+0200, giorgio novello (gio@vodafone.it) 
wrote:

> Develop e visual-basic like language, or asp vb and  your OS will be a best
> seller

The OP is likely trolling, but reminded me of the Lazarus project.
It's loosely based on Borland Delphi and is apparently quite good for
VB-like RAD development.  It's in FreeBSD ports tree.

http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/
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Re: basic

[Polytropon]

On Thu, 7 May 2009 09:53:19 -0400, Jerry McAllister  wrote:
> I know what he thinks he means.   But, what he says is that 
> improvements are against the ethic of FreeBSD and that simply
> is not true.

Never said such thing. In fact, there are many improvements
I'd like to see in FreeBSD, as well as in the applications
provided for this OS (which tend to be sponsored by Bloaty
more and more).

FreeBSD is in fact an excellent OS for beginners, because
it teaches the basics - the things that are REALLY important
when you want to do something with computers, expecially
when you want to do this as a job to make money with it.
Stupidly clicking on squeaking and dancing buttons is
nothing intelligency is needed for. FreeBSD, on the other
hand, improves learning habits, extends knowledge and leads
to precious experiences.

I don't know much about the "ethic of FreeBSD", because I
use it as an OS, not as a church. :-)



-- 
Polytropon
>From Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: basic

[Jerry McAllister]

On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 09:03:36AM +0200, Mel Flynn wrote:

> On Wednesday 06 May 2009 21:09:07 Jerry McAllister wrote:
> > On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 06:00:32PM +0200, Polytropon wrote:
> > > 10 GOTO 10
> > >
> > > On Wed, 6 May 2009 14:32:47 +0200, "giorgio novello" 
> > >  
> wrote:
> > > > Do you want obtain new market share?
> > > >
> > > > Develop e visual-basic like language, or asp vb and  your OS will be a
> > > > best seller
> > >
> > > FreeBSD isn't for beginners, it's for professionals.
> >
> > Everyone is a beginner sometime.   So, FreeBSD is for beginners.
> > Otherwise there would be no FreeBSD --- or you.
> 
> What he means is that FreeBSD does no hand holding or hide stuff "because you 
> don't need access to it anyway". Also, there aren't many that started 
> computing on FreeBSD.

I know what he thinks he means.   But, what he says is that 
improvements are against the ethic of FreeBSD and that simply
is not true.

jerry


> -- 
> Mel
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Re: basic

[Mel Flynn]

On Wednesday 06 May 2009 21:09:07 Jerry McAllister wrote:
> On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 06:00:32PM +0200, Polytropon wrote:
> > 10 GOTO 10
> >
> > On Wed, 6 May 2009 14:32:47 +0200, "giorgio novello"  
wrote:
> > > Do you want obtain new market share?
> > >
> > > Develop e visual-basic like language, or asp vb and  your OS will be a
> > > best seller
> >
> > FreeBSD isn't for beginners, it's for professionals.
>
> Everyone is a beginner sometime.   So, FreeBSD is for beginners.
> Otherwise there would be no FreeBSD --- or you.

What he means is that FreeBSD does no hand holding or hide stuff "because you 
don't need access to it anyway". Also, there aren't many that started 
computing on FreeBSD.
-- 
Mel
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RE: basic

[Gary Gatten]

You're sick!  If it's not some killer RAD tool with OO everything and a pretty 
GUI to type in, who would write code in such a thing?

Yes - I'm being sarcastic!

Can we kill this thread now?  Pretty soon it will be like the PC-BSD thread and 
the "I must have a pretty GUI installer" thread!

-Original Message-
From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org 
[mailto:owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Jerry McAllister
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 5:23 PM
To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: basic

On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 01:59:41PM -0700, Charlie Kester wrote:

> On Wed 06 May 2009 at 13:15:34 PDT Fred C wrote:
> >
> >On May 6, 2009, at 12:48 PM, Gary Gatten wrote:
> >
> >>LMAO!  Touché!  Seriously though, can't we all just get along? :)
> >
> >
> >I have no problem with linux I am using it every day at work it is  
> >installed on more than 2000 servers. But with all the incoherences in
> >the tools and the os, I feel sometime like I am working on Windows.
> 
> I suspect the OP was trolling.  The giveaway is his suggestion that
> following his advice would make FreeBSD a "best seller".  This reflects
> a complete lack of awareness of what FreeBSD is all about.
> 
> Setting aside the fact that FreeBSD is not a commercial product and thus
> has nothing to sell, he also presumes that our primary goal is to
> increase the size of our userbase and that we are willing to make
> whatever accommodations are necessary to achieve that goal.
> 
> But unless I'm mistaken, that isn't FreeBSD's goal.
> 
> FreeBSD's goal is to provide a freely-available implementation of BSD
> Unix for the most common hardware.   New users who are looking for a BSD
> Unix are welcome, but they are expected to adapt to FreeBSD's way of
> doing things and not vice versa.  The current userbase is large enough
> to suggest that many people have no problem with those terms.
> 
> As for the suggestion that what FreeBSD needs is VB, there have already
> been various ports of Basic over the years.  None of them seem to have
> had much success.  BSD users seem to be content with traditional shell
> scripting, perl, or newer scripting languages like python -- all of
> which better reflect the Unix philosophy than VB does.  

The only thing I miss about basic was the ease of playing the speaker
on a pc.  I wrote a number of odd-scaled and timed loops in Basic many 
years ago - circa 1980, pre Visual Basic actually, as tests of the effects 
of tone intervals and tone spacing and wouldn't mind resurecting them and 
doing some more experimenting.   

I know there are all kinds of more sophisticated things available, but the 
simplicity of it then just suited what I was trying to do.  It would be 
easy enough to rewrite the loops in something like Perl, but is it as easy 
to make the tones and control the time intervals?   I don't remember seeing 
that other places.  

Otherwise, the only other reason for Basic nowdays, as far as I can see, 
is for nostalgia -- anyone remember PP coding on CDC 6000 and 170 series 
mainframes?  Now that's nostalgia.

jerry


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Re: basic

[Jerry McAllister]

On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 01:59:41PM -0700, Charlie Kester wrote:

> On Wed 06 May 2009 at 13:15:34 PDT Fred C wrote:
> >
> >On May 6, 2009, at 12:48 PM, Gary Gatten wrote:
> >
> >>LMAO!  Touché!  Seriously though, can't we all just get along? :)
> >
> >
> >I have no problem with linux I am using it every day at work it is  
> >installed on more than 2000 servers. But with all the incoherences in
> >the tools and the os, I feel sometime like I am working on Windows.
> 
> I suspect the OP was trolling.  The giveaway is his suggestion that
> following his advice would make FreeBSD a "best seller".  This reflects
> a complete lack of awareness of what FreeBSD is all about.
> 
> Setting aside the fact that FreeBSD is not a commercial product and thus
> has nothing to sell, he also presumes that our primary goal is to
> increase the size of our userbase and that we are willing to make
> whatever accommodations are necessary to achieve that goal.
> 
> But unless I'm mistaken, that isn't FreeBSD's goal.
> 
> FreeBSD's goal is to provide a freely-available implementation of BSD
> Unix for the most common hardware.   New users who are looking for a BSD
> Unix are welcome, but they are expected to adapt to FreeBSD's way of
> doing things and not vice versa.  The current userbase is large enough
> to suggest that many people have no problem with those terms.
> 
> As for the suggestion that what FreeBSD needs is VB, there have already
> been various ports of Basic over the years.  None of them seem to have
> had much success.  BSD users seem to be content with traditional shell
> scripting, perl, or newer scripting languages like python -- all of
> which better reflect the Unix philosophy than VB does.  

The only thing I miss about basic was the ease of playing the speaker
on a pc.  I wrote a number of odd-scaled and timed loops in Basic many 
years ago - circa 1980, pre Visual Basic actually, as tests of the effects 
of tone intervals and tone spacing and wouldn't mind resurecting them and 
doing some more experimenting.   

I know there are all kinds of more sophisticated things available, but the 
simplicity of it then just suited what I was trying to do.  It would be 
easy enough to rewrite the loops in something like Perl, but is it as easy 
to make the tones and control the time intervals?   I don't remember seeing 
that other places.  

Otherwise, the only other reason for Basic nowdays, as far as I can see, 
is for nostalgia -- anyone remember PP coding on CDC 6000 and 170 series 
mainframes?  Now that's nostalgia.

jerry


> 
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Re: basic

[Charlie Kester]

On Wed 06 May 2009 at 13:15:34 PDT Fred C wrote:


On May 6, 2009, at 12:48 PM, Gary Gatten wrote:


LMAO!  Touché!  Seriously though, can't we all just get along? :)



I have no problem with linux I am using it every day at work it is  
installed on more than 2000 servers. But with all the incoherences in

the tools and the os, I feel sometime like I am working on Windows.


I suspect the OP was trolling.  The giveaway is his suggestion that
following his advice would make FreeBSD a "best seller".  This reflects
a complete lack of awareness of what FreeBSD is all about.

Setting aside the fact that FreeBSD is not a commercial product and thus
has nothing to sell, he also presumes that our primary goal is to
increase the size of our userbase and that we are willing to make
whatever accommodations are necessary to achieve that goal.

But unless I'm mistaken, that isn't FreeBSD's goal.

FreeBSD's goal is to provide a freely-available implementation of BSD
Unix for the most common hardware.   New users who are looking for a BSD
Unix are welcome, but they are expected to adapt to FreeBSD's way of
doing things and not vice versa.  The current userbase is large enough
to suggest that many people have no problem with those terms.

As for the suggestion that what FreeBSD needs is VB, there have already
been various ports of Basic over the years.  None of them seem to have
had much success.  BSD users seem to be content with traditional shell
scripting, perl, or newer scripting languages like python -- all of
which better reflect the Unix philosophy than VB does.  



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Re: basic

[Fred C]

On May 6, 2009, at 12:48 PM, Gary Gatten wrote:


LMAO!  Touché!  Seriously though, can't we all just get along? :)



I have no problem with linux I am using it every day at work it is  
installed on more than 2000 servers. But with all the incoherences in  
the tools and the os, I feel sometime like I am working on Windows.


-fred-





-Original Message-
From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org 
] On Behalf Of Fred C

Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 1:52 PM
To: J Sisson
Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: basic


That project already exist it is called linux...

-fred-

On May 6, 2009, at 9:08 AM, J Sisson wrote:


That's a great idea...let's take a wonderful open source project and
flood
it with Windows "programmers" who couldn't find the shell even if  
they

booted without a GUI.

And while we're at it, let's re-write the shell in .NET...you
know...for
performance reasons.

On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 7:32 AM, giorgio novello
 wrote:


Do you want obtain new market share?

Develop e visual-basic like language, or asp vb and  your OS will
be a best
seller



Regards

Giorgio Novello

Vb developer

Italy

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and may contain information that is privileged and/or confidential.
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RE: basic

[Gary Gatten]

LMAO!  Touché!  Seriously though, can't we all just get along? :)



-Original Message-
From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org 
[mailto:owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Fred C
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 1:52 PM
To: J Sisson
Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: basic


That project already exist it is called linux...

-fred-

On May 6, 2009, at 9:08 AM, J Sisson wrote:

> That's a great idea...let's take a wonderful open source project and  
> flood
> it with Windows "programmers" who couldn't find the shell even if they
> booted without a GUI.
>
> And while we're at it, let's re-write the shell in .NET...you  
> know...for
> performance reasons.
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 7:32 AM, giorgio novello  
>  wrote:
>
>> Do you want obtain new market share?
>>
>> Develop e visual-basic like language, or asp vb and  your OS will  
>> be a best
>> seller
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Giorgio Novello
>>
>> Vb developer
>>
>> Italy
>>
>> ___
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>> freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
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>
>
>
> -- 
> Computers are like air conditioners...
> They quit working when you open Windows.
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Re: basic

[Fred C]

That project already exist it is called linux...

-fred-

On May 6, 2009, at 9:08 AM, J Sisson wrote:

That's a great idea...let's take a wonderful open source project and  
flood

it with Windows "programmers" who couldn't find the shell even if they
booted without a GUI.

And while we're at it, let's re-write the shell in .NET...you  
know...for

performance reasons.

On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 7:32 AM, giorgio novello  
 wrote:



Do you want obtain new market share?

Develop e visual-basic like language, or asp vb and  your OS will  
be a best

seller



Regards

Giorgio Novello

Vb developer

Italy

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Re: basic

[Jerry McAllister]

On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 06:00:32PM +0200, Polytropon wrote:

> 10 GOTO 10
> 
> On Wed, 6 May 2009 14:32:47 +0200, "giorgio novello"  
> wrote:
> > Do you want obtain new market share? 
> > 
> > Develop e visual-basic like language, or asp vb and  your OS will be a best
> > seller
> 
> FreeBSD isn't for beginners, it's for professionals. 


Everyone is a beginner sometime.   So, FreeBSD is for beginners.
Otherwise there would be no FreeBSD --- or you.

jerry


>There
> wouldn't be Visual BEGINNERs All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction
> Code, but isual PROFESSIONALSs All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction
> Code, Visual Pasic, VP. It already exists: The tools for making
> Qt and Gtk+ applications. Then, there are NetBeans and Eclipse
> and so on - everything already there. :-)
> 
> Furthermore, FreeBSD isn't sold. So it doesn't have to care
> about market share and "best seller".
> 
> And for the weekend:
> 10 GOTO KNEIPE
> 20 INPUT BIER
> 
> 
> -- 
> Polytropon
> >From Magdeburg, Germany
> Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
> Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: basic

[J Sisson]

That's a great idea...let's take a wonderful open source project and flood
it with Windows "programmers" who couldn't find the shell even if they
booted without a GUI.

And while we're at it, let's re-write the shell in .NET...you know...for
performance reasons.

On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 7:32 AM, giorgio novello  wrote:

> Do you want obtain new market share?
>
> Develop e visual-basic like language, or asp vb and  your OS will be a best
> seller
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Giorgio Novello
>
> Vb developer
>
> Italy
>
> ___
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> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "
> freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
>



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Re: basic

[cpghost]

On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 06:00:32PM +0200, Polytropon wrote:
> On Wed, 6 May 2009 14:32:47 +0200, "giorgio novello"  
> wrote:
> > Do you want obtain new market share? 
> > 
> > Develop e visual-basic like language, or asp vb and  your OS will be a best
> > seller
> 
> FreeBSD isn't for beginners, it's for professionals. There
> wouldn't be Visual BEGINNERs All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction
> Code, but isual PROFESSIONALSs All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction
> Code, Visual Pasic, VP. It already exists: The tools for making
> Qt and Gtk+ applications. Then, there are NetBeans and Eclipse
> and so on - everything already there. :-)

Well, programming languages and environments are a matter of personal
choice and taste, and there *are* coders who use VB professionally,
i.e. to make a living. Actually an awful lot of them (*shudder*).

And let's not forget Mono for the runtime arch, which runs on FreeBSD:
  /usr/ports/lang/mono
If VB runs under Wine (?), it could theorically be used to create NET
code which could run via mono, i.e. all under FreeBSD.

Of course, software written with wxWidgets, Qt, et. al. (either with
C++ or indirectly using Perl, Python, ... bindings) would be much more
portable... ;-)

> And for the weekend:
> 10 GOTO KNEIPE
> 20 INPUT BIER

You forgot the most important step:

30 GOTO 20

-cpghost.

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Re: basic

[Polytropon]

10 GOTO 10

On Wed, 6 May 2009 14:32:47 +0200, "giorgio novello"  
wrote:
> Do you want obtain new market share? 
> 
> Develop e visual-basic like language, or asp vb and  your OS will be a best
> seller

FreeBSD isn't for beginners, it's for professionals. There
wouldn't be Visual BEGINNERs All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction
Code, but isual PROFESSIONALSs All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction
Code, Visual Pasic, VP. It already exists: The tools for making
Qt and Gtk+ applications. Then, there are NetBeans and Eclipse
and so on - everything already there. :-)

Furthermore, FreeBSD isn't sold. So it doesn't have to care
about market share and "best seller".

And for the weekend:
10 GOTO KNEIPE
20 INPUT BIER


-- 
Polytropon
>From Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: basic

[Outback Dingo]

comne on now, its not even april first.

On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 7:32 PM, giorgio novello  wrote:

> Do you want obtain new market share?
>
> Develop e visual-basic like language, or asp vb and  your OS will be a best
> seller
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Giorgio Novello
>
> Vb developer
>
> Italy
>
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Re: basic

[Chris Rees]

2009/5/6 giorgio novello :
> Do you want obtain new market share?
>
> Develop e visual-basic like language, or asp vb and  your OS will be a best
> seller
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Giorgio Novello
>
> Vb developer
>
> Italy

But VB only works on one platform!

Chris


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basic

[giorgio novello]

Do you want obtain new market share? 

Develop e visual-basic like language, or asp vb and  your OS will be a best
seller

 

Regards

Giorgio Novello

Vb developer

Italy

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basic sata card recommendations?

[Dan Mahoney]

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone could make mention of a decent basic sata card 
(not raid).  Disk is cheap but my old dell p4 (600sc) doesn't have an 
onboard 
controller.  I see a list of supported chipsets here 
http://www.freebsd.org/releases/6.4R/hardware-i386.html#DISK but I'm more 
asking for a brand-name controller (even a more-or-less generic one like 
Promise or something similar) that people have used and liked.  Opinion 
counts a bit more to me here than saying "it's supported".

Any thoughts?

-Dan
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Basic Tulip questions

[Kelly Jones]

I just installed Tulip on my FreeBSD server. The server has X11
installed, but isn't running it. I asked the questions below to the
Tulip list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) earlier, but got no
reply, so I was hoping someone here was familiar w/ it and could help
me.

Does Tulip have a command-line mode?

Can Tulip recognize graphviz-generated graph files such as those
attached? I couldn't find a way to load these into Tulip?

My experience has been w/ graphviz, and my goal is to create planar
graphs from various data sources.

Graphviz does this, but the resulting graphs tend to (ironically) have
both overlapping nodes (boxes too close to each other) AND excessive
space between nodes (the graphs could be a lot more compact). In some
cases, graphviz creates unnecessarily huge (eg, 32768x32768) GIF files
for fairly simple graphs.

I'm hoping Tulip will automatically draw fairly nice graphs + have
options that let me make them look even nicer, ideally from the
command-line.

-- 
We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying
to understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to
new ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile.


by-balloon-sahara.dot
Description: Binary data
digraph x {
edge [fontsize=10,fontcolor=red,arrowhead=open];
node [shape=polygon,fontsize=10,fontcolor=blue];
large_brass_bed [label="large brass bed\n(sheets, pillow)"];
large_brass_bed -> bedroom [label="get up"];
bedroom [label=" bedroom\n(window, bed)"];
bedroom -> ledge_outside_window [label="go window"];
ledge_outside_window [label="ledge outside window\n(flag pole)"];
ledge_outside_window -> bedroom [label="go window"];
bedroom [label="bedroom"];
bedroom -> hall [label="n"];
hall [label="hall"];
hall -> bathroom [label="n"];
bathroom [label="bathroom\n(mirror, watch, toilet)"];
bathroom -> hall [label="s"];
hall [label="hall"];
hall -> outside_castle [label="e"];
outside_castle [label="outside castle\n(coat-of-arms, bell pull)"];
outside_castle -> meandering_path [label="e"];
meandering_path [label="meandering path\n(castle, fence/gate, crowd)"];
meandering_path -> GAME_END [label="go gate"];
GAME_END [label="GAME END"];
hall [label="hall"];
hall -> kitchen [label="w"];
kitchen [label="kitchen\n(oven, DW)"];
kitchen -> DW_kitchen [label="go dumb"];
DW_kitchen [label="DW (kitchen)"];
DW_kitchen -> DW_pantry [label="raise dumbwaiter"];
DW_pantry [label="DW (pantry)"];
DW_pantry -> pantry [label="go room"];
pantry [label="pantry\n(matches, garlic, DW)"];
DW_kitchen [label="DW (kitchen)"];
DW_kitchen -> DW_workroom [label="lower dumbwaiter"];
DW_workroom [label="DW (workroom)"];
DW_workroom -> workroom [label="go room"];
workroom [label="workroom\n(door, mallet, DW, vent, memo)"];
workroom -> dungeon [label="d"];
dungeon [label="dungeon\n(pit, iron rings)"];
dungeon -> pit [label="go pit"];
pit [label="pit\n(torch)"];
workroom [label="workroom"];
workroom -> closet [label="go door"];
closet [label="closet\n(vial, dust, no-doz)"];
closet -> workroom [label="w"];
workroom [label="workroom"];
kitchen [label="kitchen"];
kitchen -> giant_solar_oven [label="go oven"];
giant_solar_oven [label="giant solar oven\n(nail file, lens)"];
giant_solar_oven -> kitchen [label="w"];
kitchen [label="kitchen"];
ledge_outside_window [label="ledge outside window"];
ledge_outside_window -> hanging_on_sheet [label="climb sheet"];
hanging_on_sheet [label="hanging on sheet"];
hanging_on_sheet -> flower_box [label=" go window"];
flower_box [label="flower box\n(daisies)"];
flower_box -> doorless_room [label="go window"];
doorless_room [label="doorless room\n(portrait, window)"];
doorless_room -> flower_box [label=" go window"];
flower_box [label=" flower box"];
flower_box -> hanging_on_sheet [label=" climb sheet"];
hanging_on_sheet [label=" hanging on sheet"];
hanging_on_sheet -> ledge_outside_window [label=" climb sheet"];
ledge_outside_window [label=" ledge outside window"];
doorless_room [label="doorless room"];
doorless_room -> dark_passage [label="go passage"];
dark_passage [label="dark passage"];
dark_passage -> crypt [label="n"];
crypt [label="crypt\n(cigarettes, vent, sign, coffin)"];
crypt -> large_coffin [label=" go coffin"];
large_coffin [label="large coffin\n(slide bolt)"];
large_coffin -> crypt [label="u"];
crypt [label="crypt"];
crypt -> dark_passage [label="s"];
dark_passage [label="dark passage"];
dark_passage -> doorless_room [label="s"];
doorless_room [label="doorless room"];
}
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Re: Card for basic 3D acceleration in FreeBSD

[Hans Nieser]

Micah wrote:
> Hans Nieser wrote:
>> Micah wrote:
>>> I'm looking for a card to handle some simple OpenGL stuff for a class
>>> I'm taking.  I have an ATI X300 card, but 3D acceleration is not
>>> supported on it in the current Xorg.  The only slots on my Mobo are PCI
>>> and PCI-EX.  I use the i386 release of FreeBSD currently, but would like
>>> to have the option to move to the amd64 release.  Any suggestions on a
>>> low-end (read cheap) card?  I know "nvidia" is often recommended, but
>>> any particular model?
>>>
>>
>> I myself ran into an issue with FreeBSD and nvidia where my PCI-Express
>> Geforce 6800GT only gave a fraction of the performance that I should have
>> been able to get. After asking about it on the nvidia forums at
>> nvnews.net
>> I was told that there is an issue between the nvidia driver and FreeBSD
>> kernel that affect non-native PCI-Express cards, it was being worked on
>> but for now I am still suffering from it. More info:
>>
>> http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=59981
> 
> Yeah, I've seen that problem mentioned in previous posts.  How terrible
> is the performance?  I just need something that can get more than 1 fps
> on simple ogl class projects.
> 
> Additionally, does anyone know the answer to the last question in the
> thread pointed to above? "Exactly which nvidia cards are/are not
> 'native' PCI-Express?"
> 

Well, the performance isn't too horrible I think, especially if you're
just going to run some basic OpenGL apps. I think it was roughly 1/4 to
1/3 of what I would get in Windows in a game like Doom 3, games like Quake
3 actually ran at about 40-50 FPS on the Geforce 6800GT

I too am curious about which cards are native PCI-Express
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RE: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

APC is doing that because they want you to pay them more money
for upgrades.  Don't feel singled out.  APC is the only company
I know that can sell 2 identical products, one painted white
(the SmartUPS 700) and one painted black (The SmartUPS 700) and
get $800 for the white one and $250 for the black one, and
have both of them right next to each other on the APC website.

Ted

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of manish jain
>Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 11:16 AM
>To: Donald J. O'Neill; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
>Subject: Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD
>
>
>
>Hi Don,
>
>  Thanks for the reply. But yes, APC is selling in India the
>models it can't sell anywhere else. My 500 VA Back UPS
>(purchased new last month) does not have any cuaa/usb
>interface. It's not just APC alone, there's a whole lot of
>companies that throw their junk in here in this country.
>Thankfully FreeBSD is not one of them.
>
>  Regards
>  Manish Jain
>
>"Donald J. O'Neill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  On Tuesday 21 February 2006 08:26, Chuck Swiger wrote:
>> manish jain wrote:
>> > I just purchased an APC 500 Back UPS (the basic model, not the
>> > pro/smart one).
>> > It does not have any serial/usb interface. Can I get apcupsd or any
>> > other daemon to work with it so that the system automatically shuts
>> > down before backup supply runs out ?
>>
>> No. If your UPS isn't smart and does not have an external USB or
>> serial port, apcupsd has nothing to work with.
>
>As best I can tell from the OP's description, and the APC website, they
>all have a UPS port. Go from there.
>
>Don
>
>
>
>-
>Yahoo! Mail
>Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail  makes sharing a breeze.
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Re: Card for basic 3D acceleration in FreeBSD

[Micah]

Hans Nieser wrote:

Micah wrote:

I'm looking for a card to handle some simple OpenGL stuff for a class
I'm taking.  I have an ATI X300 card, but 3D acceleration is not
supported on it in the current Xorg.  The only slots on my Mobo are PCI
and PCI-EX.  I use the i386 release of FreeBSD currently, but would like
to have the option to move to the amd64 release.  Any suggestions on a
low-end (read cheap) card?  I know "nvidia" is often recommended, but
any particular model?



I myself ran into an issue with FreeBSD and nvidia where my PCI-Express
Geforce 6800GT only gave a fraction of the performance that I should have
been able to get. After asking about it on the nvidia forums at nvnews.net
I was told that there is an issue between the nvidia driver and FreeBSD
kernel that affect non-native PCI-Express cards, it was being worked on
but for now I am still suffering from it. More info:

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=59981


Yeah, I've seen that problem mentioned in previous posts.  How terrible 
is the performance?  I just need something that can get more than 1 fps 
on simple ogl class projects.


Additionally, does anyone know the answer to the last question in the 
thread pointed to above? "Exactly which nvidia cards are/are not 
'native' PCI-Express?"


Thanks,
Micah
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Re: Card for basic 3D acceleration in FreeBSD

[Peter]

--- Igor Robul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 12:51:54AM -0500, Peter
> wrote:
> > Nvidia GeForce FX 5500 is working well for me. 
> This
> > card is a couple of years old now.  I see many on
> But pay attention, that nVidia drivers dont support
> amd64 version of
> FreeBSD.

Well I don't play games so I wouldn't know but I used
glxgears for a rudimentary test and I got back ~560
FPS.  I guess that's pretty low isn't it?

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Re: Card for basic 3D acceleration in FreeBSD

[Hans Nieser]

Micah wrote:
> 
> I'm looking for a card to handle some simple OpenGL stuff for a class
> I'm taking.  I have an ATI X300 card, but 3D acceleration is not
> supported on it in the current Xorg.  The only slots on my Mobo are PCI
> and PCI-EX.  I use the i386 release of FreeBSD currently, but would like
> to have the option to move to the amd64 release.  Any suggestions on a
> low-end (read cheap) card?  I know "nvidia" is often recommended, but
> any particular model?
> 

I myself ran into an issue with FreeBSD and nvidia where my PCI-Express
Geforce 6800GT only gave a fraction of the performance that I should have
been able to get. After asking about it on the nvidia forums at nvnews.net
I was told that there is an issue between the nvidia driver and FreeBSD
kernel that affect non-native PCI-Express cards, it was being worked on
but for now I am still suffering from it. More info:

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=59981
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Re: Card for basic 3D acceleration in FreeBSD

[Igor Robul]

On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 12:51:54AM -0500, Peter wrote:
> Nvidia GeForce FX 5500 is working well for me.  This
> card is a couple of years old now.  I see many on
But pay attention, that nVidia drivers dont support amd64 version of
FreeBSD.
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Re: Card for basic 3D acceleration in FreeBSD

[Peter]

--- Vayu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thursday 02 March 2006 15:57, Micah wrote:
> > I'm looking for a card to handle some simple
> OpenGL stuff for a class
> > I'm taking.  I have an ATI X300 card, but 3D
> acceleration is not
> > supported on it in the current Xorg.  The only
> slots on my Mobo are PCI
> > and PCI-EX.  I use the i386 release of FreeBSD
> currently, but would like
> > to have the option to move to the amd64 release. 
> Any suggestions on a
> > low-end (read cheap) card?  I know "nvidia" is
> often recommended, but
> > any particular model?

Nvidia GeForce FX 5500 is working well for me.  This
card is a couple of years old now.  I see many on
eBay:

http://search.ebay.ca/search/search.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&shortcut=0&from=R41&query=GeForce+FX+5500&category0=&Submit=Search

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Re: Card for basic 3D acceleration in FreeBSD

[Joseph Vella]

On Thursday 02 March 2006 21:37, Vayu wrote:
> On Thursday 02 March 2006 15:57, Micah wrote:
> > I'm looking for a card to handle some simple OpenGL stuff for a class
> > I'm taking.  I have an ATI X300 card, but 3D acceleration is not
> > supported on it in the current Xorg.  The only slots on my Mobo are PCI
> > and PCI-EX.  I use the i386 release of FreeBSD currently, but would like
> > to have the option to move to the amd64 release.  Any suggestions on a
> > low-end (read cheap) card?  I know "nvidia" is often recommended, but
> > any particular model?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Micah
> > ___
>
> I use the fglrx driver on my laptop in Linux with an ATI x300 mobility.  It
> does hardware OpenGL just fine.  I noticed this thread where that driver
> has been ported to FreeBSD.  Maybe you could try that.
>
> http://www.bsdforums.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=37837
>
> I have two FreeBSD desktop machines that have 3D support through nVidia.  I
> downloaded their latest driver for FreeBSD from their website (I think
> 8178) and it compiled on both my machines perfectly.   One has the 6600 and
> another has a 6600GT.  Both are excellent price/performance.  I have a
> lower end 6200 which is also great and pretty inexpensive.  I haven't used
> it on FreeBSD but it uses the same driver, so it should work just fine.
>

Sorry Micah,  I should have read more closely,  I just noticed that the ATI 
driver in the link I supplied doesn't support 3D.  

As I mentioned before I'm happy with nVidia cards and drivers.  Newegg has 
several 6200s for under $50:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?N=2010380048+1069609641&Submit=ENE&Subcategory=48&ATTR10=2010380048+1069609641&Order=price
 
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Re: Card for basic 3D acceleration in FreeBSD

[Vayu]

On Thursday 02 March 2006 15:57, Micah wrote:
> I'm looking for a card to handle some simple OpenGL stuff for a class
> I'm taking.  I have an ATI X300 card, but 3D acceleration is not
> supported on it in the current Xorg.  The only slots on my Mobo are PCI
> and PCI-EX.  I use the i386 release of FreeBSD currently, but would like
> to have the option to move to the amd64 release.  Any suggestions on a
> low-end (read cheap) card?  I know "nvidia" is often recommended, but
> any particular model?
>
> Thanks,
> Micah
> ___

I use the fglrx driver on my laptop in Linux with an ATI x300 mobility.  It 
does hardware OpenGL just fine.  I noticed this thread where that driver has 
been ported to FreeBSD.  Maybe you could try that. 

http://www.bsdforums.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=37837

I have two FreeBSD desktop machines that have 3D support through nVidia.  I 
downloaded their latest driver for FreeBSD from their website (I think 8178) 
and it compiled on both my machines perfectly.   One has the 6600 and another 
has a 6600GT.  Both are excellent price/performance.  I have a lower end 6200 
which is also great and pretty inexpensive.  I haven't used it on FreeBSD but 
it uses the same driver, so it should work just fine.

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Card for basic 3D acceleration in FreeBSD

[Micah]

I'm looking for a card to handle some simple OpenGL stuff for a class 
I'm taking.  I have an ATI X300 card, but 3D acceleration is not 
supported on it in the current Xorg.  The only slots on my Mobo are PCI 
and PCI-EX.  I use the i386 release of FreeBSD currently, but would like 
to have the option to move to the amd64 release.  Any suggestions on a 
low-end (read cheap) card?  I know "nvidia" is often recommended, but 
any particular model?


Thanks,
Micah
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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Donald J. O'Neill]

Hi Mannish,

I guess all you have to do is look at the first four letters in FreeBSD. 
One of the many reasons why I love this operating system, and it just 
keeps getting better, even I'm not.

Don



On Wednesday 01 March 2006 13:15, manish jain wrote:
> Hi Don,
>
>   Thanks for the reply. But yes, APC is selling in India the models
> it can't sell anywhere else. My 500 VA Back UPS (purchased new last
> month) does not have any cuaa/usb interface. It's not just APC alone,
> there's a whole lot of companies that throw their junk in here in
> this country. Thankfully FreeBSD is not one of them.
>
>   Regards
>   Manish Jain
>
> "Donald J. O'Neill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   On Tuesday 21 February 2006 08:26, Chuck Swiger wrote:
> > manish jain wrote:
> > > I just purchased an APC 500 Back UPS (the basic model, not the
> > > pro/smart one).
> > > It does not have any serial/usb interface. Can I get apcupsd or
> > > any other daemon to work with it so that the system automatically
> > > shuts down before backup supply runs out ?
> >
> > No. If your UPS isn't smart and does not have an external USB or
> > serial port, apcupsd has nothing to work with.
>
> As best I can tell from the OP's description, and the APC website,
> they all have a UPS port. Go from there.
>
> Don
>
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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[manish jain]

Hi Don,
   
  Thanks for the reply. But yes, APC is selling in India the models it can't 
sell anywhere else. My 500 VA Back UPS (purchased new last month) does not have 
any cuaa/usb interface. It's not just APC alone, there's a whole lot of 
companies that throw their junk in here in this country. Thankfully FreeBSD is 
not one of them.
   
  Regards
  Manish Jain
  
"Donald J. O'Neill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  On Tuesday 21 February 2006 08:26, Chuck Swiger wrote:
> manish jain wrote:
> > I just purchased an APC 500 Back UPS (the basic model, not the
> > pro/smart one).
> > It does not have any serial/usb interface. Can I get apcupsd or any
> > other daemon to work with it so that the system automatically shuts
> > down before backup supply runs out ?
>
> No. If your UPS isn't smart and does not have an external USB or
> serial port, apcupsd has nothing to work with.

As best I can tell from the OP's description, and the APC website, they 
all have a UPS port. Go from there.

Don



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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[David Kelly]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2006 at 03:07:21AM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> 
> Fortunately, the used market is awash in UPSes that have burned out
> batteries.  Just find the local supplier of lead-acid gell cells and
> make friends with him and your in like flyn.  Any large city has at
> least 1 of them.

When buying a new ~$25 battery for an APS 650 I saw a pile of CS350's at
the battery store. Owner offered me as many as I wanted for only the
cost of a new $18 battery. So I now have a UPS on my satellite dish PVR.

-- 
David Kelly N4HHE, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Donald J. O'Neill]

On Wednesday 22 February 2006 05:07, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> >-Original Message-
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Donald J.
> >O'Neill
> >Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 8:47 AM
> >To: Chuck Swiger
> >Cc: manish jain; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
> >Subject: Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD
> >
> >
> >
> >Then, thats got to be a really old, old one. I've been working
> > (playing with actually) with computers since the color computer. I
> > won't admit to anything further back than that. I've never seen one
> > that didn't have some means of communication (monitoring). Not from
> > APC anyway.
>
> APC has made a lot of older BackUPSs that didn't have the com port
> that date back to the Color Computer days, you just wern't paying
> attention.  For example the BackUPS 200VA (that unit was discontinued
> years ago) didn't have one, neither did the BackUPS 250 and 300 VA
> units from that era.  (all of those are discontinued)  However the
> models that didn't have the com port back in the olden days, were all
> very low, low VA units, under 350VA.
>
> It wasn't until modern times that APC decided to screw it all up.
>
> Ted

Bill Gates had come out with: you can't do multi-user, multitasking with 
an 8 bit micro-processor. Here was this inexpensive computer from Radio 
Shack, already on the market, that would if you used OS9, also 
available from Radio Shack. About that time, I decided that Bill Gates 
aught to pay more attention to what was going on.

At that time, my concern with, and about, power backup units was 
somewhere between none and none. I did know what one was, what it did, 
and why it was desirable to have one. I just didn't really have a need 
for one for a long time. After all, if you shutoff the PC, who cared if 
the power went down - as long as you shut down before that happened.

As to your last statement, I'm wondering if you were saying, in a 
different way: they took a nice, simple piece of equipment, that did 
its job well, and added capabilities to it, that in order to utilize 
them, required more capabilities added to the units they were supplying 
power backup to. Ah, I see by your later post to the list & OP, given 
more in depth and with good advice, that's what you meant. 

Don
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RE: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Donald J.
>O'Neill
>Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 8:47 AM
>To: Chuck Swiger
>Cc: manish jain; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
>Subject: Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD
>
>
>
>Then, thats got to be a really old, old one. I've been working (playing
>with actually) with computers since the color computer. I won't admit
>to anything further back than that. I've never seen one that didn't
>have some means of communication (monitoring). Not from APC anyway.
>

APC has made a lot of older BackUPSs that didn't have the com port
that date back to the Color Computer days, you just wern't paying
attention.  For example the BackUPS 200VA (that unit was discontinued
years ago) didn't have one, neither did the BackUPS 250 and 300 VA
units from that era.  (all of those are discontinued)  However the
models that didn't have the com port back in the olden days, were all
very low, low VA units, under 350VA.

It wasn't until modern times that APC decided to screw it all up.

Ted

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RE: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

Years ago the APC BackUPSs did come with a serial port.  APC sold the
BackUPS and the SmartUPS.  Both had serial ports, both could be used
to shut down the system.  The difference was you could query the Smart
UPS to findout how much life was left in the battery.

Then 2 things happened, first APC realized
that a lot of consumers out there didn't know or care that their
UPS had a serial port that could shut down the computer, and second
sales of BackUPS were cannibalizing sales of SmartUPS.  So
APC renamed the normal BackUPS with the serial port into the BackUPS Pro,
and came out with a consumer el-cheapo line of throwaway UPS's they
named the BackUPS.

It is no wonder your confused because most documentation on the Internet
for UPSes talks
about backups, but what they are meaning is
pre-apc-getting-greedy-backups
upses, not post-apc-getting-greedy-backupses-that-are-named-the-same
-as-their-predicessors.

Fortunately, the used market is awash in UPSes that have burned out
batteries.  Just find the local supplier of lead-acid gell cells and
make friends with him and your in like flyn.  Any large city has at least
1 of them.

Quite a large number of businesses out there find that it is cheaper to
toss an old 600VA ups and buy a new one when the battery dies, rather
than
pay some tech for an hours worth of time to pull the old battery and
replace it, then test the UPS to make sure it's still working.  Also,
a lot of techs misdiagnose UPS battery failures and don't know how to
test them anyway.  I've found old APC UPSes for sale very cheap and
very few of them have failed.  Testing is very easy.  Just plug the new
batteries in, and before plugging the UPS into the wall, clip a voltmeter
on the battery terminals.  If you get any voltage rise at all, even a
half a volt, when the UPS is plugged in, the charging circuit is OK.
Then plug a computer into the UPS, turn it on, and unplug the UPS from
the wall and if the inverter goes on, then the inverter is working and
the UPS is perfectly OK.  This test does not work with old batteries
because old batteries often fail in unusual ways.  And the new batteries
should not be at 100% of charge, which they won't be if they have
been on the shelf for a month or so.

Ted

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of manish jain
>Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 6:09 AM
>To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
>Subject: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD
>
>
>Hi,
>
>  I just purchased an APC 500 Back UPS (the basic model, not
>the pro/smart one). It does not have any serial/usb interface.
>Can I get apcupsd or any other daemon to work with it so that
>the system automatically shuts down before backup supply runs out ?
>
>  If someone can attach a sample configuration file, I shall be
>grateful.
>
>  Thanks
>  Manish Jain
>
>
>
>-
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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Paul Mather]

Chuck Swiger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Donald J. O'Neill wrote:
> > On Tuesday 21 February 2006 08:26, Chuck Swiger wrote:
> [ ... ]
> >> No.  If your UPS isn't smart and does not have an external USB or
> >> serial port, apcupsd has nothing to work with.
> > 
> > As best I can tell from the OP's description, and the APC website,
> they 
> > all have a UPS port. Go from there.
> 
> All of the new Smart-UPS APC models that they are selling now have USB
> ports.
> 
> There are plenty of older models around in the channel, and there is
> the entire
> Back-UPS model line that are not "smart", and thus have no
> monitoring/shutdown
> capabilities.  See the Subject: header...

For my home, I bought a Back-UPS Pro 1100 that was inexpensive.  It came
with a 940-0020C serial cable.  Unfortunately, this only supports simple
signalling, so you can't monitor the UPS for its vital statistics
regarding percentage battery life left, etc.  I guess that's why it was
inexpensive.  But, it does work with apcupsd, and you do get
notification of power loss and even a critical power low warning signal
you can use to trigger shutdown of your machines.  It has worked well
for me.

I don't know if your statement about the "entire Back-UPS model line"
also encompassed the Back-UPS Pro models.  I just wanted to say there
was at least one Back-UPS Pro UPS that did support monitoring/shutdown
capabilities, albeit the restricted simple signalling type.

I agree that if the OPs UPS doesn't have any type of data connection to
a host computer then it won't be possible to get it to interface with
apcupsd.  However, I haven't heard of an APC UPS that didn't come with
some kind of data cable, so it would be useful if the OP posted the
precise model: there are several in the Back-UPS 500 line, such as the
Back-UPS 500; Back-UPS CS 500; Back-UPS ES 500; etc.  All of them
support either a serial or USB cable.  (The CS supports both.)

Cheers,

Paul.
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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[David Kelly]

On Tue, Feb 21, 2006 at 10:35:40AM -0600, Donald J. O'Neill wrote:
>
> I think in this case, he was referring to extra sensory perception. But, 
> since this is evidently a model that just sits there and supplies 
> backup power until the battery is too depleted to AC power to the 
> computer at an acceptable level, and at that point the computer shuts 
> off. I would say this model is not capable of esp.

I'd say the original assessment was correct in that ESP was the *only*
possible way to read the status of a UPS which doesn't have an external
monitoring interface.  :-)

The very very old units often had simple status lines which could be
monitored with special software thru a parallel printer port.

If the UPS has a warning buzzer he could put a microphone on a sound
card and listen for the buzzer. The buzzes often come faster just before
the UPS breathes its last breath. If one does such a thing we've already
got a name for it, ESP.

-- 
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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Donald J. O'Neill]

On Tuesday 21 February 2006 11:46, Ian Lord wrote:

>
> Lol in my own opinion, if the user that asked the question can't
> figure out there is a usb/serial port on the unit (I took the
> assumption as true :) I can hardly see how he would manage to compile
> and configure apcupsd :)
>
What can I say. There are people like that. You read what they say and 
feel there's something wrong, something doesn't ring true. They haven't 
done something, they don't know about something, etc. I think it can be 
said: "I know enough from what you've said to be dangerous." I think I 
should say instead: "Sure I can help you, but if you didn't know enough 
to tell me everything I needed to know, my advice may possibly melt 
your cpu, warp your harddrive, remove your ram, and if that isn't 
enough, install an unremovable bios from 1975."  

The OP hasn't said anything back yet, which leads me to wonder: did he 
go to sleep, is he paying attention, is he now too embarrassed to say 
anything, or is he stuck trying to see whats on the APC unit and he put 
it in a place that's hard to see.

Don
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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Graham Bentley]

Back-UPS CS 350 is the lowest model
I got to work on *nix. 

However, you have to ring / mail APC
and ask them to send you out a serial
lead.
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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Ian Lord]

At 11:47 2006-02-21, Donald J. O'Neill wrote:

On Tuesday 21 February 2006 10:08, Chuck Swiger wrote:
> Donald J. O'Neill wrote:
> > On Tuesday 21 February 2006 08:26, Chuck Swiger wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
> >> No.  If your UPS isn't smart and does not have an external USB or
> >> serial port, apcupsd has nothing to work with.
> >
> > As best I can tell from the OP's description, and the APC website,
> > they all have a UPS port. Go from there.
>
> All of the new Smart-UPS APC models that they are selling now have
> USB ports.
>
> There are plenty of older models around in the channel, and there is
> the entire Back-UPS model line that are not "smart", and thus have no
> monitoring/shutdown capabilities.  See the Subject: header...


Then, thats got to be a really old, old one. I've been working (playing
with actually) with computers since the color computer. I won't admit
to anything further back than that. I've never seen one that didn't
have some means of communication (monitoring). Not from APC anyway.

I think the model number from the case would tell us a lot. I think...
therefore I sometimes blow smoke.

Don


Lol in my own opinion, if the user that asked the question can't 
figure out there is a usb/serial port on the unit (I took the 
assumption as true :) I can hardly see how he would manage to compile 
and configure apcupsd :)





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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Donald J. O'Neill]

On Tuesday 21 February 2006 10:08, Chuck Swiger wrote:
> Donald J. O'Neill wrote:
> > On Tuesday 21 February 2006 08:26, Chuck Swiger wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
> >> No.  If your UPS isn't smart and does not have an external USB or
> >> serial port, apcupsd has nothing to work with.
> >
> > As best I can tell from the OP's description, and the APC website,
> > they all have a UPS port. Go from there.
>
> All of the new Smart-UPS APC models that they are selling now have
> USB ports.
>
> There are plenty of older models around in the channel, and there is
> the entire Back-UPS model line that are not "smart", and thus have no
> monitoring/shutdown capabilities.  See the Subject: header...


Then, thats got to be a really old, old one. I've been working (playing 
with actually) with computers since the color computer. I won't admit 
to anything further back than that. I've never seen one that didn't 
have some means of communication (monitoring). Not from APC anyway.

I think the model number from the case would tell us a lot. I think... 
therefore I sometimes blow smoke.

Don
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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Donald J. O'Neill]

On Tuesday 21 February 2006 09:53, Ian Lord wrote:
> At 10:32 2006-02-21, Peter wrote:
> >--- Ian Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > At 09:09 2006-02-21, manish jain wrote:
> > > >Hi,
> > > >
> > > >   I just purchased an APC 500 Back UPS (the
> > > > basic model, not the pro/smart one). It does
> > > > not have any serial/usb interface. Can I get
> > > > apcupsd or any other daemon to work with it so
> > > > that the system automatically shuts down before backup supply
> > > > runs out
> > >
> > > ?
> > >
> > > >   If someone can attach a sample configuration file, I shall be
> > >
> > > grateful.
> > >
> > > >   Thanks
> > > >   Manish Jain
> > >
> > > How do you think freebsd will know the ups is
> > > about to stop providing energy if the ups has no serial or usb
> > > port ?
> > >
> > > :)
> >
> >Maybe he can try using the ESP protocol?
>
> Not too sure what you are talking about, the only esp protocol I know
> is for encryption during a vpn connection... But basically, this ups
> is so "dumb" the only connection between the pc and the ups is
> through the power cable... Unless you find a way to communicate
> through that, there is no way you can know there is a power outage
> (lol unless there is a speaker and you use a microphone to listen for
> the alarm :)
>
I think in this case, he was referring to extra sensory perception. But, 
since this is evidently a model that just sits there and supplies 
backup power until the battery is too depleted to AC power to the 
computer at an acceptable level, and at that point the computer shuts 
off. I would say this model is not capable of esp.

Don
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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Chuck Swiger]

Donald J. O'Neill wrote:
> On Tuesday 21 February 2006 08:26, Chuck Swiger wrote:
[ ... ]
>> No.  If your UPS isn't smart and does not have an external USB or
>> serial port, apcupsd has nothing to work with.
> 
> As best I can tell from the OP's description, and the APC website, they 
> all have a UPS port. Go from there.

All of the new Smart-UPS APC models that they are selling now have USB ports.

There are plenty of older models around in the channel, and there is the entire
Back-UPS model line that are not "smart", and thus have no monitoring/shutdown
capabilities.  See the Subject: header...

-- 
-Chuck
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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Ian Lord]

At 10:32 2006-02-21, Peter wrote:


--- Ian Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At 09:09 2006-02-21, manish jain wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >   I just purchased an APC 500 Back UPS (the
> > basic model, not the pro/smart one). It does
> > not have any serial/usb interface. Can I get
> > apcupsd or any other daemon to work with it so
> > that the system automatically shuts down before backup supply runs out
> ?
> >
> >   If someone can attach a sample configuration file, I shall be
> grateful.
> >
> >   Thanks
> >   Manish Jain
>
> How do you think freebsd will know the ups is
> about to stop providing energy if the ups has no serial or usb port ?
>
> :)

Maybe he can try using the ESP protocol?


Not too sure what you are talking about, the only esp protocol I know 
is for encryption during a vpn connection... But basically, this ups 
is so "dumb" the only connection between the pc and the ups is 
through the power cable... Unless you find a way to communicate 
through that, there is no way you can know there is a power outage 
(lol unless there is a speaker and you use a microphone to listen for 
the alarm :)




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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Donald J. O'Neill]

On Tuesday 21 February 2006 08:26, Chuck Swiger wrote:
> manish jain wrote:
> > I just purchased an APC 500 Back UPS (the basic model, not the
> > pro/smart one).
> > It does not have any serial/usb interface. Can I get apcupsd or any
> > other daemon to work with it so that the system automatically shuts
> > down before backup supply runs out ?
>
> No.  If your UPS isn't smart and does not have an external USB or
> serial port, apcupsd has nothing to work with.

As best I can tell from the OP's description, and the APC website, they 
all have a UPS port. Go from there.

Don
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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Peter]

--- Ian Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At 09:09 2006-02-21, manish jain wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >   I just purchased an APC 500 Back UPS (the 
> > basic model, not the pro/smart one). It does 
> > not have any serial/usb interface. Can I get 
> > apcupsd or any other daemon to work with it so 
> > that the system automatically shuts down before backup supply runs out
> ?
> >
> >   If someone can attach a sample configuration file, I shall be
> grateful.
> >
> >   Thanks
> >   Manish Jain
> 
> How do you think freebsd will know the ups is 
> about to stop providing energy if the ups has no serial or usb port ?
> 
> :)

Maybe he can try using the ESP protocol?






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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Chuck Swiger]

manish jain wrote:
> I just purchased an APC 500 Back UPS (the basic model, not the pro/smart
> one).
> It does not have any serial/usb interface. Can I get apcupsd or any other 
> daemon
> to work with it so that the system automatically shuts down before backup 
> supply
> runs out ?

No.  If your UPS isn't smart and does not have an external USB or serial port,
apcupsd has nothing to work with.

-- 
-Chuck
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Re: Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[Ian Lord]

At 09:09 2006-02-21, manish jain wrote:

Hi,

  I just purchased an APC 500 Back UPS (the 
basic model, not the pro/smart one). It does 
not have any serial/usb interface. Can I get 
apcupsd or any other daemon to work with it so 
that the system automatically shuts down before backup supply runs out ?


  If someone can attach a sample configuration file, I shall be grateful.

  Thanks
  Manish Jain


How do you think freebsd will know the ups is 
about to stop providing energy if the ups has no serial or usb port ?


:)




~~
Ian Lord
MSD Informatique
1711 Montée Major Terrebonne (Québec) J7M 1E6
Tél.: (514) 776-MSDI-> (514) 776-6734
Sans Frais: 1(877) 776-MSDI -> 1(877) 776-6734
http://www.msdi.ca 
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Making APC 500 Back UPS (basic) work with FreeBSD

[manish jain]

Hi,
   
  I just purchased an APC 500 Back UPS (the basic model, not the pro/smart 
one). It does not have any serial/usb interface. Can I get apcupsd or any other 
daemon to work with it so that the system automatically shuts down before 
backup supply runs out ?
   
  If someone can attach a sample configuration file, I shall be grateful.
   
  Thanks
  Manish Jain
   


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Re: troubles with apcupsd (basic setup)

[Greg Maruszeczka]

Dan O'Connor wrote:
>>> > > My config file:
>>> > > UPSNAME APC_BACKUPS_650
>>> > UPSCABLE 940-0020B
>>> > UPSTYPE dumb
>>> > DEVICE /dev/cuaa0
>>> > LOCKFILE /var/spool/lock
>>> > > ONBATTERYDELAY 10
>>> > > BATTERYLEVEL 20
>>> > MINUTES 5
>>> > TIMEOUT 600
>>> > 
> 
> 
>> Nope.  Same thing.
> 
> 
> Well, first off, try setting UPSTYPE to "apcsmart"
> then just set UPSCABLE to "smart"...
> 


To the OP:

Is it a BACKUPS __PRO__ 650 or just a BACKUPS 650? If it's the latter
then the dumb UPSTYPE should be correct. I have two boxes running this
model with apcupsd without issue.

Incidentally, based on your original description it almost sounds like
your battery is dead (or very low charge) which would explain why
apcupsd wants to shutdown immediately. Try running the ups without load
for a few hours to see.

G
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Re: troubles with apcupsd (basic setup)

[Dan O'Connor]

> 
> My config file:
> 
> UPSNAME APC_BACKUPS_650

> UPSCABLE 940-0020B
> UPSTYPE dumb
> DEVICE /dev/cuaa0
> LOCKFILE /var/spool/lock
> 
> ONBATTERYDELAY 10
> 
> BATTERYLEVEL 20

> MINUTES 5
> TIMEOUT 600
> 



Nope.  Same thing.


Well, first off, try setting UPSTYPE to "apcsmart"
then just set UPSCABLE to "smart"...

~Dan

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Re: troubles with apcupsd (basic setup)

[Peter]

--- Greg Maruszeczka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Peter wrote:
> > Hello.  I have an APC BackUPS 650 and I want to have my FreeBSD 5.4
> system
> > shutdown on power failure.  I received a cable with the unit but there
> are
> > no identifying markings.  When I run apcupsd it thinks there is a
> power
> > failure and proceeds to shut me down.  Can anyone help?
> > 
> > My config file:
> > 
> > UPSNAME APC_BACKUPS_650
> > UPSCABLE 940-0020B
> > UPSTYPE dumb
> > DEVICE /dev/cuaa0
> > LOCKFILE /var/spool/lock
> > 
> > ONBATTERYDELAY 10
> > 
> > BATTERYLEVEL 20
> > MINUTES 5
> > TIMEOUT 600
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> Try this cable:
> 
> 940-0020C

Nope.  Same thing.

"Warning power loss detected.
Power failure. Running on UPS batteries."






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Re: troubles with apcupsd (basic setup)

[Greg Maruszeczka]

Peter wrote:
> Hello.  I have an APC BackUPS 650 and I want to have my FreeBSD 5.4 system
> shutdown on power failure.  I received a cable with the unit but there are
> no identifying markings.  When I run apcupsd it thinks there is a power
> failure and proceeds to shut me down.  Can anyone help?
> 
> My config file:
> 
> UPSNAME APC_BACKUPS_650
> UPSCABLE 940-0020B
> UPSTYPE dumb
> DEVICE /dev/cuaa0
> LOCKFILE /var/spool/lock
> 
> ONBATTERYDELAY 10
> 
> BATTERYLEVEL 20
> MINUTES 5
> TIMEOUT 600
> 
> 
>   

Try this cable:

940-0020C

hope that helps you,

G

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troubles with apcupsd (basic setup)

[Peter]

Hello.  I have an APC BackUPS 650 and I want to have my FreeBSD 5.4 system
shutdown on power failure.  I received a cable with the unit but there are
no identifying markings.  When I run apcupsd it thinks there is a power
failure and proceeds to shut me down.  Can anyone help?

My config file:

UPSNAME APC_BACKUPS_650
UPSCABLE 940-0020B
UPSTYPE dumb
DEVICE /dev/cuaa0
LOCKFILE /var/spool/lock

ONBATTERYDELAY 10

BATTERYLEVEL 20
MINUTES 5
TIMEOUT 600






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Re: Basic Port Management.Is there any?

[Lowell Gilbert]

"George Katsanos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> As a fresh Freebsd user[and fan] I am trying to set up my WM / X environment
> and choose the apps I will use for basic stuff.
> Text Editors , Image viewers , Mail apps , FileManagers.
>  
> So after I see some screenshots [it would be very nice and handy if some
> screenshots could be added to the freebsd.org/ports database] I'm making
> install the port to check it out. Some times , I decided that I don't like
> it . So my first though is to get rid of it , cause I don't want ''trash''
> on my system.
> I'm making deinstall [or pkg_delete] to remove it. Everything ok so far ,
> but what about the one zillion dependant pkg's the app made?
> You can say , do a pkg_delete -r . Yes but this will may delete also pkgs
> that are Needed by other ports/apps..
>  
>  
> Is there any good plan solution for this ?...

sysutils/cutleaves
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Re: Basic Port Management.Is there any?

[Philip Lykke Carlsen]

Monday 31 October 2005 10:00 skrev George Katsanos:
> Hello ! ,
>
>
> As a fresh Freebsd user[and fan] I am trying to set up my WM / X
> environment and choose the apps I will use for basic stuff.
> Text Editors , Image viewers , Mail apps , FileManagers.
>
> So after I see some screenshots [it would be very nice and handy if some
> screenshots could be added to the freebsd.org/ports database] I'm making
> install the port to check it out. Some times , I decided that I don't like
> it . So my first though is to get rid of it , cause I don't want ''trash''
> on my system.
> I'm making deinstall [or pkg_delete] to remove it. Everything ok so far ,
> but what about the one zillion dependant pkg's the app made?
> You can say , do a pkg_delete -r . Yes but this will may delete also pkgs
> that are Needed by other ports/apps..
>
>
> Is there any good plan solution for this ?...

well.. if you issue a `pkg_info -r pkg_name`  command you will see all the 
packages that the package pkg_name depends on..

As for ports' management I'd recommend installing sysutils/portupgrade
some people like sysutils/portmanager better though.. but I can't really say 
I'm familliar with that though..

the portupgrade port is a set of utilities to help you manage your installed 
ports..

it's got pkg_deinstall which seems to have what you seek
pkg_deinstall -R would deinstall a package's dependencies as well
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