Re: [Freedos-user] : File systems with metadata support

2013-11-23 Thread dmccunney
On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 1:03 AM, Rugxulo rugx...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 12:41 PM, dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com wrote:

 Test Disk is designed to recover *partitions*, not files.  It searches
 for backup copies of the partition table and does substitutions when
 the main one is damaged.  It bypasses the file system(s) entirely and
 does low level raw disk reads.

 The companion PhotoRec can recover *image* files with some success,
 and copy what it finds to another drive.  IT knows what various image
 files look like, and does low level reads looking for them.

 I'm not saying you're totally wrong, I catch your drift, but it does
 claim to do some file-based stuff:

 http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk
 
 TestDisk can
 ...

 * Undelete files from FAT, exFAT, NTFS and ext2 filesystem
 * Copy files from deleted FAT, exFAT, NTFS and ext2/ext3/ext4 partitions.

It can, and I've used it (rather more extensively than I'd have
wished) to do so.

But again, it's ignoring file systems, and doing direct low-level disk
access.  When it does file recover, it's making a best guess about
what blocks on disk *are* a file, and simply copying X blocks under a
made up name to another file system as a file.  If the disk it is
copying from is relatively unfragmented, it does okay.  Beyond that,
things get messy fast and you get lots of garbage, because the file
system metadata that states what blocks belong to what files isn't
available.

It can't be used in the manner the OP desires, because it doesn't work
at the file system level.
__
Dennis

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Re: [Freedos-user] : File systems with metadata support

2013-11-22 Thread Eric Auer

Hi :-)

 Also, what are the chances that someone within the FreeDOS community may
 one day write a driver for a filesystem which supports extended
 attributes? Not necessarily support for a standard filesystem (ext2,
 ext3, etc), mind you. A homebrew filesystem too would be good enough, I
 guess.
 
 Dunno, ask on freedos-kernel, and be prepared to be disappointed.

You probably want to ask on freedos-devel: Filesystems, apart
from the most essential bootable ones, are loadable drivers,
so they are more or less like any other software, non-kernel.

You have the choice between a block driver and a network or
cdrom redirector style driver. The former is only to let the
DOS kernel access FAT filesystems on non-BIOS hardware, so in
your case, you want the latter. Network drives and CD/DVD/BD
have filesystems about which the DOS kernel itself is totally
clueless. The drivers just generate a view showing a tree
of directories containing files with the usual DOS properties
such as date and timestamp. Extra features (e.g. Unix access
rights) have to be represented in DOS style or separately.

The next question would be what the driver will do: As your
main feature wish is store arbitrary textual tags along with
the filenames, you will probably want to add some sort of
extra interface (API) to access those tags.

I guess you could also use magic: For example show virtual
filename.meta text files for each filename file, to make the
metadata accessible for tools which are not aware of your
new interface. You could even let that dynamically switch,
in case people want to copy directories with/without metas.
You can provide a command line tool to control your driver.
Another idea would be something like a /proc filesystem :-)

This also means that the REAL question is: Which software is
going to use this API and how? As mentioned in this thread,
shells like the 4DOS command.com replacement can display and
edit descriptions which are a bit like long file names. In
4DOS, descript.ion text files are used to store the metadata.

As far as I know, 4DOS does not support commands like copy
all files with rollercoaster in the description to drive X:
so you actually get even LESS functionality compared to long
file names where you just use verbose interesting file names.

On the other hand, descript.ion files once were used in more
applications, so you will probably also find file managers
(in style of norton commander, dosshell or other) which can
display and edit the descriptions. Maybe you will also find
image viewers which support descript.ion :-) None of this
will happen if you create a new driver with a new interface:

That driver will ONLY let newly written software access the
metadata. You can probably patch some existing software to
add support for your driver to it, but that, too, is work.

Maybe you could do some brainstorming and post a list with
use cases for your metadata project: What type of tools
should use the metadata and in which way?

Looking forward to read your ideas :-)

Eric



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Re: [Freedos-user] : File systems with metadata support

2013-11-22 Thread Marcos Favero Florence de Barros
Eric Auer, Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:18:08 +0100:
 As far as I know, 4DOS does not support commands like copy all
 files with rollercoaster in the description to drive X:

According to the 4DOS 'copy' instructions, it does support it:

4DOS Help Topic:  COPY
/Itext:  Select source files by matching text in their
 descriptions.  The text can include wildcards and extended
 wildcards.  The search text must be enclosed in quotation marks,
 and must follow the /I immediately, with no intervening spaces.
 You can select all filenames that have a description with
 /I[?]*, or all filenames that do not have a description with
 /I[].

Regards,

Marcos

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Campinas, Brazil



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Re: [Freedos-user] : File systems with metadata support

2013-11-22 Thread dmccunney
On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Rugxulo rugx...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 6:20 PM,  za...@gmx.com wrote:
 On 2013-11-22 00:46, Rugxulo wrote:
 I suggest you just try to use a user-space program like TestDisk. I
 haven't used it much, but in minimal testing it did seem to access my
 ext3 partition correctly.

 Does the TestDisk solution that you mentioned give full access (i.e.
 both read and write) to the ext3 filesystem, or would it be read only?

 AFAIK, it's read-only, meant for recovering files (from broken system
 to working, until reinstall or similar migration).

Test Disk is designed to recover *partitions*, not files.  It searches
for backup copies of the partition table and does substitutions when
the main one is damaged.  It bypasses the file system(s) entirely and
does low level raw disk reads.

The companion PhotoRec can recover *image* files with some success,
and copy what it finds to another drive.  IT knows what various image
files look like, and does low level reads looking for them.
__
Dennis

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Re: [Freedos-user] : File systems with metadata support

2013-11-21 Thread Rugxulo
Hi,

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 8:25 AM,  za...@gmx.com wrote:

 I probably found what I was looking for: the COMBOOTF.IMA file from
 Lucho utilities.

 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15785527/dos/lucho.html

 But I could not find any documentation.

I'm pretty sure this is the Paragon driver and not something Lucho
wrote by himself. If it doesn't mention a license, I would be very
very skeptical about the legality (although of course that depends on
what country you live in). I would not directly recommend it. But feel
free to contact Paragon (as if that'll help) for further info!

A quick check finds this (http://johnson.tmfc.net/dos/file/readthis.txt):

IFS driver ... may not be used commercially (but even
non-commercially I'd be skeptical without explicit permission!)

 There is a reference to this on an unrelated forum:
 http://www.drdosprojects.de/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/forum/drp_forum/cmd=iYzaK=3756iZz=3756gV=0kQz=aO=1iWz=0

 If I understand correctly, this driver is meant to support even ext3!
 But, does it really?

Don't know. Anything is better than nothing, but we can't really
suggest solutions that are illegal. Sadly a lot of software just rots
since nobody maintains it (yet copyright still forbids copying such
things, ugh).

I suggest you just try to use a user-space program like TestDisk. I
haven't used it much, but in minimal testing it did seem to access my
ext3 partition correctly.

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Re: [Freedos-user] : File systems with metadata support

2013-11-21 Thread Rugxulo
Hi,

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 6:08 AM, patrick patterson
prpat...@peoplepc.com wrote:
 hello all. longtime reader, first time poster

 this is something I have been thinking about for a long time.
 I think it needs to be a part of long file name support, which
 seems to be pretty messy for compatability (multiple directory
 entries to carry extra characters in the name).

 since only 5 bits are used for standard attributes, 3 more could
 probably be added, but their meaning would not be clear. if one
 of those was an extended attributes flag that would be a start.

 if the ea flag is set, lfn support could do significant redefinition
 of directory entry format, at the cost that programs which bypass
 lfn access would have problems. if lfn support is done with a redirector
 (I confess to weak knowledge of how it is done). this may be able
 to trap all access.

Any ideas are highly appreciated, but ... there just aren't enough
skilled people to work on this. For instance, I'm nowhere near
qualified to hack on file systems stuff in the kernel (and don't have
SVN write access anyways).

You'd reach a (minmally) more receptive audience at freedos-kernel
mailing list, not here. Just FYI, though don't get your hopes up.

BTW, IIRC, the FreeDOS kernel developers weren't really interested in
adding even native LFN support to the kernel. I'm not sure exactly
why, but the existence of third-party drivers like DOSLFN (and the
fact that the LFN hacks are patented [until 2017?] and still enforced
by MS) probably doesn't help. Any other way of doing it would be
incompatible (though I guess it could be optional, for those who
needed full interoperability), which is typically considered bad.

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Re: [Freedos-user] : File systems with metadata support

2013-11-21 Thread dmccunney
On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Rugxulo rugx...@gmail.com wrote:

 There is a reference to this on an unrelated forum:
 http://www.drdosprojects.de/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/forum/drp_forum/cmd=iYzaK=3756iZz=3756gV=0kQz=aO=1iWz=0

 If I understand correctly, this driver is meant to support even ext3!
 But, does it really?

 Don't know. Anything is better than nothing, but we can't really
 suggest solutions that are illegal. Sadly a lot of software just rots
 since nobody maintains it (yet copyright still forbids copying such
 things, ugh).

I have an open source Windows driver that correctly reads and writes
the ext4 partitions on a box where I multiboot Win2K and Linux.

Ext3 is ext2 with journaling.  Ext4 is ext3 with support for extents.
If the driver can recognize and read an ext2 file system, I'd expect
it to handle ext3 and 4 as well.  It can read the directory structure
and follow pointers to blocks on disk.

 I suggest you just try to use a user-space program like TestDisk. I
 haven't used it much, but in minimal testing it did seem to access my
 ext3 partition correctly.

Test Disk does low level access, and doesn't *care* what the file
system is.  It operates on the raw device doing direct sector reads.

I've used it here to recover lost partition tables, and the companion
PhotoRec application to recover lost image files.  PhotoRec knows what
an image file looks like, and simply does low level disk reads till it
finds the start of one and continues to what appears to be the end.
__
Dennis
https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519

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Re: [Freedos-user] : File systems with metadata support

2013-11-21 Thread zalit
On 2013-11-22 00:46, Rugxulo wrote:
 I suggest you just try to use a user-space program like TestDisk. I
 haven't used it much, but in minimal testing it did seem to access my
 ext3 partition correctly.

Does the TestDisk solution that you mentioned give full access (i.e. 
both read and write) to the ext3 filesystem, or would it be read only? 
What about that Paragon utility?
I am asking because for my purposes I would need full access.

Also, what are the chances that someone within the FreeDOS community may 
one day write a driver for a filesystem which supports extended 
attributes? Not necessarily support for a standard filesystem (ext2, 
ext3, etc), mind you. A homebrew filesystem too would be good enough, I 
guess.

Thanks again Rugxulo, your expertise is truly invaluable.



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Re: [Freedos-user] : File systems with metadata support

2013-11-21 Thread Rugxulo
Hi,

On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 6:20 PM,  za...@gmx.com wrote:
 On 2013-11-22 00:46, Rugxulo wrote:
 I suggest you just try to use a user-space program like TestDisk. I
 haven't used it much, but in minimal testing it did seem to access my
 ext3 partition correctly.

 Does the TestDisk solution that you mentioned give full access (i.e.
 both read and write) to the ext3 filesystem, or would it be read only?

AFAIK, it's read-only, meant for recovering files (from broken system
to working, until reinstall or similar migration).

 What about that Paragon utility?
 I am asking because for my purposes I would need full access.

Don't know, never tested, not sure of the license. Ask Paragon (or
Lucho or whoever) directly, if possible, if the accompanying help
isn't specific. But be prepared to be disappointed, copyright law
isn't very friendly (U.S. = death + 70 years), and people are not
diligent about keeping older software alive.

 Also, what are the chances that someone within the FreeDOS community may
 one day write a driver for a filesystem which supports extended
 attributes? Not necessarily support for a standard filesystem (ext2,
 ext3, etc), mind you. A homebrew filesystem too would be good enough, I
 guess.

Dunno, ask on freedos-kernel, and be prepared to be disappointed.
(The glib answer usually is start a Kickstarter campaign, but I have
no idea how to do it or if it's even feasible since FreeDOS isn't a
corporation, non-profit nor otherwise. But I really don't think
funding is the main obstacle here.)

 Thanks again Rugxulo, your expertise is truly invaluable.

Says nobody ever (except on April 1st)!  :-)   I'm just a two-bit
hack, take my words with a bucket of salt.

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[Freedos-user] : File systems with metadata support

2013-11-20 Thread patrick patterson
hello all. longtime reader, first time poster

this is something I have been thinking about for a long time.
I think it needs to be a part of long file name support, which
seems to be pretty messy for compatability (multiple directory
entries to carry extra characters in the name).

since only 5 bits are used for standard attributes, 3 more could
probably be added, but their meaning would not be clear. if one
of those was an extended attributes flag that would be a start.

if the ea flag is set, lfn support could do significant redefinition
of directory entry format, at the cost that programs which bypass
lfn access would have problems. if lfn support is done with a redirector
(I confess to weak knowledge of how it is done). this may be able
to trap all access.




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Re: [Freedos-user] File systems with metadata support

2013-11-20 Thread zalit
On 2013-11-20 05:45, Rugxulo wrote:
   I vaguely recall (but never tried) that there used to be such a
 (shareware?) DOS driver from Paragon Software [EDIT: IFSDRV?] that
 could read ext2 and some others.

This would be a good solution. Only, in order to be useful such a driver 
should target some more recent filesystem.


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Re: [Freedos-user] : File systems with metadata support

2013-11-20 Thread zalit
I probably found what I was looking for: the COMBOOTF.IMA file from 
Lucho utilities.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15785527/dos/lucho.html

But I could not find any documentation.

There is a reference to this on an unrelated forum:
http://www.drdosprojects.de/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/forum/drp_forum/cmd=iYzaK=3756iZz=3756gV=0kQz=aO=1iWz=0

If I understand correctly, this driver is meant to support even ext3! 
But, does it really?



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Re: [Freedos-user] File systems with metadata support

2013-11-20 Thread Louis Santillan
Ext2 is forward compatible with ext3.  There's simple migration tools
builtin to mkfs.ext3 on Linux, iirc. Then ext3 is forward compatible with
ext4 with similar tools.  So it's kind of a Canadian cross situation but
you could you'll always be able to get access  to an ext2 partition from
Linux.

-L

On Wednesday, November 20, 2013, wrote:

 On 2013-11-20 05:45, Rugxulo wrote:
I vaguely recall (but never tried) that there used to be such a
  (shareware?) DOS driver from Paragon Software [EDIT: IFSDRV?] that
  could read ext2 and some others.

 This would be a good solution. Only, in order to be useful such a driver
 should target some more recent filesystem.



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Re: [Freedos-user] File systems with metadata support

2013-11-19 Thread Eric Auer

Hi!

 Hi Eric. Extended attributes (often abbreviated as xattr) are a given in
 all modern file systems. Basically, extended attributes are metadata
 fields which, in addition to the standard fields (date_created,
 date_modified, size, read_only, hidden, etc), the user can arbitrarily
 create, for his own use. For instance, such attributes may be defined
 as: library_classification, product_quality, contacted_before, etc.
 This way, each file is turned into a database record...

Interesting. I was rather thinking about old extra attributes
such as the Linux immutable flag or the general ACL idea of
extended file access permissions. Regarding tagging, I think
the typical DOS way to do that would be to store tags in some
separate file, either per directory or globally. There are a
few shells which implement things like long file names and/or
comments for files that way :-)

 tagging is ubiquitous, on all systems. Pictures are tagged, emails are
 tagged, any file can be tagged. Then, file retrieval is done via the
 tags, and searches often take place across the directories.
 
 For extended attributes, see:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_file_attributes
 
 While modern file systems have many more features, I am interested only
 in extended attributes, for tagging purposes.
 
 I hope this explained it.
 
 Cheers

Yes that explains it. Thanks!

Eric



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Re: [Freedos-user] File systems with metadata support

2013-11-19 Thread Chris Evans
I do not think so,  maybe the devs can implement ea_attrib file support
On Nov 18, 2013 9:43 PM, za...@gmx.com wrote:

 Hello

 Does FreeDOS support any file system that has customizable metadata
 (also known as extended attributes)? All modern file systems do. The
 only feature that I need is extended attributes, so I don't care about
 journaling or other features.

 Thanks

 Reno


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Re: [Freedos-user] File systems with metadata support

2013-11-19 Thread Chris Evans
Just make kernel use /ea_attrib.dat with file name and a bit wise word for
storing attributes bits
On Nov 19, 2013 8:46 PM, Rugxulo rugx...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 11:41 PM,  za...@gmx.com wrote:
 
  Does FreeDOS support any file system that has customizable metadata
  (also known as extended attributes)?

 The kernel itself only directly supports FAT. Anything else (AFAIK,
 and I'm no expert) has to come from a loadable driver using the
 redirector interface, e.g. ISO9660 (CD) via UIDE.SYS (or VIDE,
 OAKCDROM, whatever) + MSCDEX / NWCDEX / SHSUCDX.

  All modern file systems do.

 That's great, but there aren't enough skilled volunteers (plus zero
 funding) to do this for FreeDOS. It's not impossible, just unpopular
 and thus unlikely.

  The only feature that I need is extended attributes, so I don't care
 about
  journaling or other features.

 As mentioned, you'll probably have to do it manually, e.g. use
 DESCRIPT.ION files from 4DOS or maybe something more detailed with
 other tools.

 P.S. Of course since it's unprotected (real) mode, you can also just
 write an .EXE to do your direct sector reads / writes. This is also
 how many DOS programs access lower-level file systems that aren't
 directly supported by DOS. For instance, FreeDOS 1.0 (2006) had
 several such programs: hfsutil, ihpfs, ltools, ntfs (though I don't
 see TestDisk, but that's yet another one).

 P.P.S. I vaguely recall (but never tried) that there used to be such a
 (shareware?) DOS driver from Paragon Software [EDIT: IFSDRV?] that
 could read ext2 and some others. A quick check doesn't find any
 obvious links on their website except a mention of (presumably the
 successor product) Rescue Kit 11 Free Edition (which doesn't mention
 DOS explicitly, but it is a bootable, platform independent recovery
 CD). If you wish to download that and check, you might find it
 (possible but unlikely, dunno). Maybe someone else on this list knows
 more about the old shareware driver, but I dunno beyond that.


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[Freedos-user] File systems with metadata support

2013-11-18 Thread zalit
Hello

Does FreeDOS support any file system that has customizable metadata 
(also known as extended attributes)? All modern file systems do. The 
only feature that I need is extended attributes, so I don't care about 
journaling or other features.

Thanks

Reno

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