Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
Simply put: User: user Organization: Unknow 2009/4/28, Robert Riebisch : > Michael Robinson wrote: > >> I could also complain that Microsoft ... >> ... doesn't have a right >> to sue people over it. > > Could you please explain this strange POV? > >> MS-DOS to my knowledge never asked for an installation code >> and it is not marked in any way as copy XYZ. > > That's correct, but it doesn't matter at all. > >> Actually, one thing I don't like about ReactOS is that >> it asks for identifying information including a name >> and company just like Windows 9x and later does. > > What do you fear? > > Robert Riebisch > -- > BTTR Software > http://www.bttr-software.de/ > > -- > Register Now & Save for Velocity, the Web Performance & Operations > Conference from O'Reilly Media. Velocity features a full day of > expert-led, hands-on workshops and two days of sessions from industry > leaders in dedicated Performance & Operations tracks. Use code vel09scf > and Save an extra 15% before 5/3. http://p.sf.net/sfu/velocityconf > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > -- -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Marco A. Achury Tel: +58-(212)-6158777 Cel: +58-(414)-3142282 Fax: +58-(212)-2410828 Skype: marcoachury www.geocities.com/marcoachury -- Register Now & Save for Velocity, the Web Performance & Operations Conference from O'Reilly Media. Velocity features a full day of expert-led, hands-on workshops and two days of sessions from industry leaders in dedicated Performance & Operations tracks. Use code vel09scf and Save an extra 15% before 5/3. http://p.sf.net/sfu/velocityconf ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
Michael Robinson wrote: > I could also complain that Microsoft ... > ... doesn't have a right > to sue people over it. Could you please explain this strange POV? > MS-DOS to my knowledge never asked for an installation code > and it is not marked in any way as copy XYZ. That's correct, but it doesn't matter at all. > Actually, one thing I don't like about ReactOS is that > it asks for identifying information including a name > and company just like Windows 9x and later does. What do you fear? Robert Riebisch -- BTTR Software http://www.bttr-software.de/ -- Register Now & Save for Velocity, the Web Performance & Operations Conference from O'Reilly Media. Velocity features a full day of expert-led, hands-on workshops and two days of sessions from industry leaders in dedicated Performance & Operations tracks. Use code vel09scf and Save an extra 15% before 5/3. http://p.sf.net/sfu/velocityconf ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
> > MS-DOS and Windows 3.x are clearly abandonware. If I want to > > use this abandonware, am I suddenly breaking the law? > > Not suddenly. It is and was breaking the law. Of course you can > hope that MS is too busy hunting people who steal Vista, but > you cannot just say that stealing MS DOS is suddenly legal... Some MS-DOS games don't work in freedos, something that can be fixed hopefully, and one needs MS-DOS for them. That said, games like Ultima VII and any game based on the Wolfenstein 3D gaming engine will work on 98 on down and in some cases in XP if you use either dosbox or in the case of Ultima VII, Exult. It is illegal to download and use MS-DOS, but I have a wrecked copy of it sitting on the shelf. If Microsoft were to try and sue me for my copy, I can point to the one on the shelf as well as the fact that MS-DOS licenses were never tied to specific computers. I could also complain that Microsoft isn't supporting MS-DOS and claim that it doesn't have a right to sue people over it. There is also the fact that I don't profit from MS-DOS in any way which is outside of the realm of personal use. MS-DOS to my knowledge never asked for an installation code and it is not marked in any way as copy XYZ. Windows 95 is a different story where I threw away my cracked copy which is labeled as being the property of McDonald's. The fact that Microsoft can prosecute illegal use of ancient versions of Windows and all versions of MS-DOS is all the more reason for this project to pick up and release a better freedos. It is also high time that a Windows 3.1/9x replacement got under way. Most games that run in either 98/XP are really meant for 98. ReactOS is not 98 and the ReactOS team will never pursue a gui that runs on top of dos. Actually, one thing I don't like about ReactOS is that it asks for identifying information including a name and company just like Windows 9x and later does. -- Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensign option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
Hi Michael, > How about games made for the Tandy Color Computer 3 by Diecom Products? > That company is now defunct and has been for a very long time. You > can download disk images of Guantlet II. Is that really illegal? As the company is defunct, it is unlikely that they will sue you. But maybe they sold their rights to another company and that one might be interested in getting some money out of you. Or maybe the individual developers now hold the copyright. As long as you have no official statement which makes the once commercial code free, it is not free. Simple. > MS-DOS and Windows 3.x are clearly abandonware. If I want to > use this abandonware, am I suddenly breaking the law? Not suddenly. It is and was breaking the law. Of course you can hope that MS is too busy hunting people who steal Vista, but you cannot just say that stealing MS DOS is suddenly legal... > Busting Grandma for downloading a commercial song she bought > a CD of at the local store is a travesty. Yet it happens quite often that some "big industry" sues some "harmless small copying" just because they can. I know people who had to pay 100s of Euros for having a picture on their non- commercial private homepage without paying for the rights... The right holder turned out to be a lawyer who apparently had a lot of time to google around and extort amateurs. There was no chance to avoid the fine by just removing the picture after the lawyer complained. Those things just do not work based on what is FAIR. They work based on LAW and there are enough people who do not care about moral rights as long as law gives them money. Eric -- Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial Check out the new simplified licensign option that enables unlimited royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing server and web deployment. http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
> -Original Message- > From: Michael Robinson [mailto:plu...@robinson-west.com] > Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 1:48 AM > To: freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site... > > > But just to say the last word about this thread: please > avoid warez, > > sources and links to any other illegal activities. > > > > Thanks. > > Aitor > > Downloading commercial software that you own a copy of for > personal use is not illegal. Agree. > Downloading old commercial > software that isn't sold anymore which the author doesn't > care about is not illegal. Yes, it is. If the law says it's not legal, then it's not legal. > To be illegal, the owner of the intellectual property has to > raise suit and why would they over someone using the product > personally? Just because the person you are stealing from doesn't press charges doesn't mean you didn't break the law. It just means you got away with it. D -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
>> On a side note, I could care less whether or not people use illegal >> copies of software on FreeDOS; that's a personal choice. But don't >> try to force your opinion on other people. > > You mean the way you are trying to force your opinion on everyone? No I am not. I am saying "everyone, make up your own mind; if you want to download abandonware, go ahead, just don't tell other people that it's ok". You are 99.9% unlikely to have any legal difficulties, but that doesn't make it legal. Everyone should personally decide if it's ok for them. > Are you suddenly a lawyer who magically understands that there's > no gray area when in fact there is a lot of gray area? I think you > have been listening to Microsoft. Property notions don't > work well when you are talking about software, especially ancient > software. Anything from the 90's or earlier qualifies as ancient > software. In the software world, anything that is 3 years old > can be considered ancient. Commercial DOS software hasn't been > supported since the 90's. if someone wants to squeeze blood out > of a turnip for using abandoned commercial software, good luck > to them. The last word is, talking about http://vetusware.com > does NOT make me a software pirate. > > > -- > Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and > around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save > $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. > 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. > Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
On Apr 19, 2009, at 1:34 AM, Michael Robinson wrote: > Anything from the 90's or earlier qualifies as ancient > software. In the software world, anything that is 3 years old > can be considered ancient. Commercial DOS software hasn't been > supported since the 90's. This statement is patently false. There are several companies who still sell and support dos software from the 90's and before even. http://www.powerbasic.com for one still sells and actively supports powerbasic for dos. Checking the usnet groups that post messages about software being posted to simtelnet still (periodically) show new versions of dos software. Embeded markets especially are still using dos for a lot of uses, and there are hundreds of software companies who still sell and support dos software for such use. Just because it's old doesn't make it automatically unsupported or abandonware. This is why you can't unilaterally assume that anything that is x years old is abandoned. Some programs are truly abandon, but more than you might think are still active. Semware still supports and sells qedit, the folks who make Vedit still sell and support dos versions as well, and these are just the few I can come up with off the top of mmy head, doing a few minutes of research on google or yahoo will turn up hundreds more. I'm fairly certain rar and arj (and possibly pkzip) still accept registrations for their dos versions of their software, and other companies will as well if you ask about it. Dos is by no means dead, though there are companies out there who would have you believe otherwise. Please, don't assume that because it's dos software it's abandoned. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
> Use without author's permission is not legal, selling without author's > permission is not legal (unless your local law allows otherwise), and > making a profit of something gets you in court quite fast indeed. > > Bernd > The GPL is an exception, it gives you permission to use the software it covers as long as you follow the terms without the author's permission. As far as profit, I have NEVER made a profit downloading commercial software I didn't purchase a copy of. Freedos could be proprietary. Actually, it never will be proprietary because the GPL doesn't allow that thank goodness. The software you can use with Freedos shrinks considerably if we start saying that abandonware cannot be used. Anything designed for dos these days is either abandoneware or GPL'ed as there are no commercial dos systems that are supported. If that isn't true, someone name a commercial dos program that is still sold and supported and the dos platform that it is supported on. Noone should have a right to profit from a program that is designed for a system that isn't supported anymore. The chances of making Microsoft support dos or even Windows 9x again are zero. Should the author of an Atari program who hasn't supported it since the Atari died out be allowed to demand observance of it as his/her intellectual property? How about color computer software? Should commercial software for the color computer even though it isn't produced anymore be recognized as such? Should I be allowed to sell commercial software for the original 8 bit Nintendo, assuming I could profitably do so? Is turbovision OSS software? Are all the development packages that should be used for Freedos 1.1 open source? There are practical problems with recognizing abandonware as being equal to commercial software such as Vista or Windows 7 for example. Should Novell prosecute someone if they hand their friend a copy of Netware 1 with the license code for free? How about Netware 2? Netware 3? Netware 4? There is a ton of commercial software that is either abandoned or superseded by newer releases. I own a copy of Warcraft II that I paid for and I downloaded a copy of Warcraft I from vetusware.com which I can't buy at my local store anymore. In fact, everything on Vetusware appears to be software that you can't buy from anyone, other than a pirate that is. Downloading commercial software that has been abandoned is not going to get you into trouble in court, especially if you have defective media for it sitting on the shelf. Ideally, owners of commercial software (the intellectual property) declare it to be public domain software even if they hold onto the source code when they abandon or stop supporting it. There should be laws that limit ownership when it comes to software because the current laws are creating software monopolies where Microsoft is one of the most well known. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
Copyright and abandon stuff are separate issues. It's certainly possible that software is abandon, and that nobody will come after you for using it. That does *not* however, mean the copyright on that software has been invalidated. If the copyright holder (whoever that may be) decided to enforce copyright, even though they aren't selling, supporting, or indeed even acknowlodging that the software exists, they would still have the legal right to do so. Is this right? Probably not, but that's the way the law is written. There was an attempt (in 2001-2002) when copyright law came up for review to get abandon software exempted from copyright restrictions, but the attempt failed. It was supposed to be revisited in 2008-2009 ( I think) but I have heard nothing about whether it actually was or not. In short, while abandon software is still under copyright, and downloading copyrighteded software is illegal, there's nothing to prevent you from doing so if you choose to do so. The only caveat is that: if (for any reason whatsoever) the copyright holder decides to enforce their right to that software, then you would be in trouble, plain and simple. Now, in reality, it's not that cut and dry, and everyone knows that. Just be careful, and try to be reasonable, and it's likely nothing will happen to you, but do be advised that just because someone doesn't prosecute for copyright infringement, doesn't mean they won't do so in the future. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
Michael Robinson schreef: > Speaking of abandonware, all the Nintendo games for the original > 8 bit system fit that description now. Should anyone distribute > what is the definition of abandonware anyway? and why would it be legal if it did fit the description? to my knowledge Nintendo is using some download system for the Wii computers to allow playing older games from all kinds of their old platforms. Also some 8bit titles have found their way to the portable systems (Gameboy) a few years ago. Think it was Zelda II and a few others. Where's Nintendo and 3rdparty author's (Konami for Metal Gear or Castlevania for example) claims that you can do with their 8bit titles whatever you want? > an emulator to run the old games on PC's? Should anyone distribute > instructions on how to get a rom image of an old game so a person > can play it on his/her PC? Would it be wrong for someone to set > This would be allowed yes, just sharing information. Emulators (ZSNES/SNES9x for 16bit SNES system for example) are also allowed..how you get the ROMs is your own problem. Getting a ROM image might be as stricts as "*only you* may personally create this backup, and only if you own the cartridge with the licensed ROM on it". Dutch system allows to visit a library, hire some media, and make the backups yourself. Letting someone do it for you is illegal again however. > up an ftp site where you can download old 8 bit Nintendo games > and play them on your PC? > And this not as you're distributing someone else's copyrighted works without their permission. > How about games made for the Tandy Color Computer 3 by Diecom Products? > That company is now defunct and has been for a very long time. You > can download disk images of Guantlet II. Is that really illegal? > Strictly, yes, until copyright has expired. > MS-DOS and Windows 3.x are clearly abandonware. If I want to use this > abandonware, am I suddenly breaking the law? I think there is a huge > difference between using abandonware verses trying to profit from it. > Microsoft and resellers are no longer selling and supporting these programs. As Blair mentioned, get an original copy from Ebay (if MS and/or the law at all allow reselling their licensed software by end-users) > Hopefully if you want to sell software, you are smart enough to clean > room create you own code and secure your rights to it. > > Aitor, you think piracy is a black and white issue. It is not. Busting > Grandma for downloading a commercial song she bought a CD of at the > local store is a travesty. > That's still an opinion, not the current copyright law. And in court, only the judge's interpretation of the law counts, not yours or mine. I'd like to agree on this though with you..free DVD/blueray if you already own the VHS version of a movie as you got a license for the movie. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
On Sat, 2009-04-18 at 22:59 -0700, Blair Campbell wrote: > > Downloading commercial software that you own a copy of for personal > > use is not illegal. Downloading old commercial software that isn't > > sold anymore which the author doesn't care about is not illegal. > > To be illegal, the owner of the intellectual property has to raise > > suit and why would they over someone using the product personally? > No, it is still illegal. That is like saying "it's only stealing if I > get caught" or "I stole a laptop from my friend but he doesn't use it > so it's ok". No. Theft involves taking property from someone where abandoned software is NOT property. If the producers of the software or the owners of the intellectual property have no intention of prosecuting people who share it, it effectively becomes legal to share it. Who is going to prosecute you for letting your buddy download an image of an old 8 bit Nintendo game? I am not saying that it is right to download a commercial software program if you don't get caught. I have never said that. A laptop and a lamp are property, a software program is not. I can copy a software program, in most cases, without taking away the owner's copy. I may not have a right to use my copy, but I'm not stealing by copying the owner's installation media. > I think it is more of a legal gray area if you are downloading a copy > of something you already own, not necessarily illegal. > > > The people breaking the law are those who try to profit off > > the software without paying the owners of it anything. > > But you are (in a sense) profiting by using software you otherwise > wouldn't use. If you want a copy and you want it legal, use ebay. Using ebay involves purchasing a used copy of the software from someone who no right to sell their license to use it. This software is often over priced on ebay. Wordperfect 6.0 dos on ebay, if you can even find it, is extremely expensive. Are you going to pay a pirate $300-$500 to have a copy of WordPerfect 6.0 dos for your own personal use on 3.5" disks that are probably shot? > > I disagree strongly with the notion that using commercial abandonware > > is illegal or criminal in any way. If commercial software were never > > shared, it would never have the popularity that it enjoys. I'm not > > against paying for the use of commercial software, but if the author > > of the software doesn't care about it, why should I be prevented from > > using it? I can't pay for the use of a commercial program that isn't > > sold anymore and I am not interested in being fleeced by a third > > party seller which probably doesn't have a right to sell me the > > program. > > ebay. At least you can feel good inside. That's assuming that I am not buying from a software pirate. > > I have never talked about the source code of commercial software nor > > have I ever suggested that people go to a site that hands out source > > code. In fact, I don't know of any sites that hand out the source code > > to commercial software. > > Source or binary doesn't really matter. Au Contraire, it matters a lot. With the source code of a commercial program, you can adapt that program to work on systems it was never designed for even if the original authors of the program won't. With a little reworking of the source, you can claim that it's yours and try to get around the original author's copyright and/or patent. > > I have never suggested that anyone else nor do I myself profit from > > my use of software downloaded from http://vetusware.com. I don't > > make money off of this abandonware. I don't even provide a source > > for other people to download it from. I allow people to download > > battletech I and II from me if they want to, but those programs > > are so old that I seriously doubt there's an issue. > it doesn't matter. Yes it does. Legally speaking, a software pirate profits off of commercial software by selling copies of it, say on ebay, to other unsuspecting victims. The way you are treating software as property no matter what is very distressing. I wonder if you have a problem with people sharing and modifying open source software? > > I don't appreciate this late, I have the moral high ground tone > > that you are taking Aitor. I am not a pirate. I do not go out > > and get whatever commercial software I can without paying for > > it only to turn around and try to sell it. > > It doesn't matter whether or not you are selling it. If you don't own > something, it isn't legally yours. Simple. > > On a side note, I could care less whether or not people use illegal > copies of software on FreeDOS; that's a personal choice. But don't > try to force your opinion on other people. You mean the way you are trying to force your opinion on everyone? Are you suddenly a lawyer who magically understands that there's no gray area when in fact there is a lot of gray area? I think you have been listening to Microsoft. Property not
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
Michael Robinson schreef: > Downloading commercial software that you own a copy of for personal > use is not illegal. Downloading old commercial software that isn't > I'm not even sure this is allowed. A lot of software was distributed on physical media, of which you were allowed to make a copy for personal backup in case the original media are damaged. > sold anymore which the author doesn't care about is not illegal. > So you have explicit written comment (either on paper or on the internet) from all of the authors of each individual released software that they no longer care about it and explicitly allow usage by people who didn't pay for the program? Downloading/using software without the author's explicit permission is violating his copyright. FreeDOS and Linux etc also have copyright - you're not allowed to do anything with these programs - unless..you agree and live up to the terms of the permission statement (license/GPL). If not wanting to stick to GPL terms for these projects, you're not allowed to use/distribute it, as original copyright stays in effect then which prohibits using FreeDOS :) There have been lawsuits against manufacturers of routers. They used Linux, made adjustments, distributed the hardware with the adjusted Linux embedded (as firmware)..and violated GPL that way by not releasing sourcecode of adjustments under GPL as well. > To be illegal, the owner of the intellectual property has to raise > suit and why would they over someone using the product personally? > The people breaking the law are those who try to profit off > the software without paying the owners of it anything. > Why would a copyright holder have to take any action? The product is his, and you lack his explicit permission to use it. > I disagree strongly with the notion that using commercial abandonware > is illegal or criminal in any way. If commercial software were never > shared, it would never have the popularity that it enjoys. I'm not > Personal ethics are irrelevant, so far only the law counts. Hope you followed that PirateBay lawsuit. > against paying for the use of commercial software, but if the author > of the software doesn't care about it, why should I be prevented from > using it? I can't pay for the use of a commercial program that isn't > sold anymore and I am not interested in being fleeced by a third > party seller which probably doesn't have a right to sell me the > program. > Define when an author doesn't care please. Mail microsoft and ask them if you can use Windows95 as you can download it, and don't get a response within 2 days? is that a definition of "doesn't care" ? > I have never talked about the source code of commercial software nor > have I ever suggested that people go to a site that hands out source > code. In fact, I don't know of any sites that hand out the source code > to commercial software. > Projects like MySQL are/were dual-licensed, 1 commercial version, 1 more opensource version. > I have never suggested that anyone else nor do I myself profit from > my use of software downloaded from http://vetusware.com. I don't > make money off of this abandonware. I don't even provide a source > for other people to download it from. I allow people to download > battletech I and II from me if they want to, but those programs > are so old that I seriously doubt there's an issue. > Let people find their own sites then if they want to infringe copyright. Don't list any publicly as it only gets the platform on which you list it (in this case the FreeDOS mailinglist, possibly Sourceforge.net) in trouble if some zealous copyright guardians (hi RIAA/MPAA etc) give us their attention. In short, you're promoting downloading no longer released software, might as well promote downloading older books, music and movies at the same time as they're no difference..all is copyright, all you lack permission for if you don't have bought a license of obtained explicit permission. Maybe in 75 years or so you can go download it when copyright on the product has expired :) Note that patents are a whole other matter, those have to be actively defended (at least in the USA system) > I don't appreciate this late, I have the moral high ground tone > that you are taking Aitor. I am not a pirate. I do not go out > and get whatever commercial software I can without paying for > it only to turn around and try to sell it. Use without author's permission is not legal, selling without author's permission is not legal (unless your local law allows otherwise), and making a profit of something gets you in court quite fast indeed. Bernd -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Regi
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
Speaking of abandonware, all the Nintendo games for the original 8 bit system fit that description now. Should anyone distribute an emulator to run the old games on PC's? Should anyone distribute instructions on how to get a rom image of an old game so a person can play it on his/her PC? Would it be wrong for someone to set up an ftp site where you can download old 8 bit Nintendo games and play them on your PC? How about games made for the Tandy Color Computer 3 by Diecom Products? That company is now defunct and has been for a very long time. You can download disk images of Guantlet II. Is that really illegal? MS-DOS and Windows 3.x are clearly abandonware. If I want to use this abandonware, am I suddenly breaking the law? I think there is a huge difference between using abandonware verses trying to profit from it. Hopefully if you want to sell software, you are smart enough to clean room create you own code and secure your rights to it. Aitor, you think piracy is a black and white issue. It is not. Busting Grandma for downloading a commercial song she bought a CD of at the local store is a travesty. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
> Downloading commercial software that you own a copy of for personal > use is not illegal. Downloading old commercial software that isn't > sold anymore which the author doesn't care about is not illegal. > To be illegal, the owner of the intellectual property has to raise > suit and why would they over someone using the product personally? No, it is still illegal. That is like saying "it's only stealing if I get caught" or "I stole a laptop from my friend but he doesn't use it so it's ok". I think it is more of a legal gray area if you are downloading a copy of something you already own, not necessarily illegal. > The people breaking the law are those who try to profit off > the software without paying the owners of it anything. But you are (in a sense) profiting by using software you otherwise wouldn't use. If you want a copy and you want it legal, use ebay. > I disagree strongly with the notion that using commercial abandonware > is illegal or criminal in any way. If commercial software were never > shared, it would never have the popularity that it enjoys. I'm not > against paying for the use of commercial software, but if the author > of the software doesn't care about it, why should I be prevented from > using it? I can't pay for the use of a commercial program that isn't > sold anymore and I am not interested in being fleeced by a third > party seller which probably doesn't have a right to sell me the > program. ebay. At least you can feel good inside. > I have never talked about the source code of commercial software nor > have I ever suggested that people go to a site that hands out source > code. In fact, I don't know of any sites that hand out the source code > to commercial software. Source or binary doesn't really matter. > I have never suggested that anyone else nor do I myself profit from > my use of software downloaded from http://vetusware.com. I don't > make money off of this abandonware. I don't even provide a source > for other people to download it from. I allow people to download > battletech I and II from me if they want to, but those programs > are so old that I seriously doubt there's an issue. it doesn't matter. > > I don't appreciate this late, I have the moral high ground tone > that you are taking Aitor. I am not a pirate. I do not go out > and get whatever commercial software I can without paying for > it only to turn around and try to sell it. It doesn't matter whether or not you are selling it. If you don't own something, it isn't legally yours. Simple. On a side note, I could care less whether or not people use illegal copies of software on FreeDOS; that's a personal choice. But don't try to force your opinion on other people. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
> But just to say the last word about this thread: please avoid warez, > sources and links to any other illegal activities. > > Thanks. > Aitor Downloading commercial software that you own a copy of for personal use is not illegal. Downloading old commercial software that isn't sold anymore which the author doesn't care about is not illegal. To be illegal, the owner of the intellectual property has to raise suit and why would they over someone using the product personally? The people breaking the law are those who try to profit off the software without paying the owners of it anything. I disagree strongly with the notion that using commercial abandonware is illegal or criminal in any way. If commercial software were never shared, it would never have the popularity that it enjoys. I'm not against paying for the use of commercial software, but if the author of the software doesn't care about it, why should I be prevented from using it? I can't pay for the use of a commercial program that isn't sold anymore and I am not interested in being fleeced by a third party seller which probably doesn't have a right to sell me the program. I have never talked about the source code of commercial software nor have I ever suggested that people go to a site that hands out source code. In fact, I don't know of any sites that hand out the source code to commercial software. I have never suggested that anyone else nor do I myself profit from my use of software downloaded from http://vetusware.com. I don't make money off of this abandonware. I don't even provide a source for other people to download it from. I allow people to download battletech I and II from me if they want to, but those programs are so old that I seriously doubt there's an issue. I don't appreciate this late, I have the moral high ground tone that you are taking Aitor. I am not a pirate. I do not go out and get whatever commercial software I can without paying for it only to turn around and try to sell it. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
Hello, 2009/4/13 Michael Robinson : > know of. Technically, if the author of a proprietary program > doesn't care about it anymore, sharing it isn't a legal problem. That is plain wrong. Many old games are back-to-life thanks to mobile phones, and it just evidences that the authors keep the copyright even if it becomes unused. > infringement. IMO, Microsoft should not have a copyright > on software it has abandoned that it doesn't support anymore, > but it just doesn't work that way. Sadly, the ReactOS Here you go. It does not work that way. > If an old software program that the author doesn't > care about is a dos program and there are no free > alternatives that are comparable, downloading it > is ethical. It is especially ethical if you have > fried installation media sitting on the shelf for > it. Then maybe you should vote for someone that shares your view on it. But until that happens, either it is ethical or not for you it is illegal. And what is worse: it is useless and dangerous, as we don't ever want to get involved with warez or any other similar alternative at all. > Jim Hall, you are coming down awfully hard > on me for mentioning Vetusware and I think > you should step back and think long and > hard about that. I appropriately mentioned I disagree. If you read the message carefully, I think it was extremely polite, yet crystal clear. There's nothing to apologise for. > Do you really want to send the message > to people that freedos is not to be used > to run commercial software? I don't know how this relates to the rest of the mail. But just to say the last word about this thread: please avoid warez, sources and links to any other illegal activities. Thanks. Aitor -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
On Sun, 2009-04-12 at 20:13 -0500, Jim Hall wrote: > > If you own a computer that had MS-DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1 > > on it at one point, but your install media are fried, try > > this abandonware site. > > > > http://vetusware.com > > > > I worry about the legality of downloading from this site, but > > technically the software they are allowing people to download > > is unsupported and abandoned. > > > > Please do not post links to warez sites or abandonware sites on the > FreeDOS lists. I know you shared the link with the best of intentions, > but I want to avoid confusing the goal of FreeDOS (creating a free, > open source version of DOS that anyone can use) with that of warez > (free [as in cost] illegal file sharing.) > > > -jh Sorry. I did mention that it's a warez site. There is an interesting problem raised with old software. If someone lets me download a proprietary program that I have install disks for which don't work, that isn't illegal. That said, I'd choose a comparable free alternative over a warez copy any day. Sadly, there isn't an OSS alternative that is comparable to WP 6.0 dos yet that I know of. Technically, if the author of a proprietary program doesn't care about it anymore, sharing it isn't a legal problem. After all, someone has to come after you in which case you could offer to pay a reasonable price to continue using the program or give it up. I've downloaded Ms-Dos 6.22 and Windows 3.1 from that Warez site as well as Windows 95 pre registered. I have a 95 upgrade that doesn't work without 3.1 on the shelf, an old packard bell cd that I used to be able to get MS-DOS 6.22 off of and my dad had a fried disk set for upgrading to dos 6.22, and yes there's a copy of Woof woof, actually 2, around. The second copy has failed. I downloaded Warcraft I which I've never purchased a copy of, but I don't think Blizzard cares and if they do I'd be more than happy to either a) pay for it or b) delete it. All this said, I hope the freedos project eventually replaces all of the dos based versions of Microsoft Windows so that noone has to worry about being questioned about copy infringement. IMO, Microsoft should not have a copyright on software it has abandoned that it doesn't support anymore, but it just doesn't work that way. Sadly, the ReactOS project will only replace NT Windows and only for PIII and newer computers. Those of us who are using freedos because we are say on a 486 or older machine are simply out of luck. Ideally, freedos has an OSS alternative for everything. It doesn't yet. There isn't a gui for freedos that's free which can do Windows style networking similar to what you'd expect in Windows 95 for example. Wordperfect 6.0 dos as far as I know is more advanced than any free alternative. This problem goes further. One of the points of freedos after all is having a free and better dos to run old proprietary dos programs. I never owned foxpro for example and I'll bet that turbovision which has been suggested for a new installer for freedos is proprietary. If an old software program that the author doesn't care about is a dos program and there are no free alternatives that are comparable, downloading it is ethical. It is especially ethical if you have fried installation media sitting on the shelf for it. Warez sites get a bad rap, but what about Microsoft for abandoning popular software just to make money and not open sourcing it? I bet people will be handing out XP when it can't be bought anymore along with software to defeat the activation barrier. If there hadn't been a lot of illegal copying of dos programs, I bet dos wouldn't have been as popular as it was. Jim Hall, you are coming down awfully hard on me for mentioning Vetusware and I think you should step back and think long and hard about that. I appropriately mentioned that there might be a legal problem. Microsoft could shut the site down if it wanted to. I'm not a thief. The software they offer on that site isn't making anyone any money anymore. Do you really want to send the message to people that freedos is not to be used to run commercial software? -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
> If you own a computer that had MS-DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1 > on it at one point, but your install media are fried, try > this abandonware site. > > http://vetusware.com > > I worry about the legality of downloading from this site, but > technically the software they are allowing people to download > is unsupported and abandoned. > Please do not post links to warez sites or abandonware sites on the FreeDOS lists. I know you shared the link with the best of intentions, but I want to avoid confusing the goal of FreeDOS (creating a free, open source version of DOS that anyone can use) with that of warez (free [as in cost] illegal file sharing.) -jh -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
"If you own a computer that had MS-DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1 on it at one point, but your install media are fried, try this abandonware site." Regardless of the age of the product and the ownership, if one has the orig media there shouldn't be a problem. At least thats what I think, :) usul -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
On Fri, 10 Apr 2009, Michael Robinson wrote: > If you own a computer that had MS-DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1 > on it at one point, but your install media are fried, try > this abandonware site. > > http://vetusware.com > > I worry about the legality of downloading from this site, but > technically the software they are allowing people to download > is unsupported and abandoned. > > I think the rule is 20 years old, but some of this stuff isn't > that old. Use with care. > In the US copyright is life of the author plus 50 years now for stuff created after the early 1980's. If the copyright owner is a corporation it is 75 years or so. If it is patented it is 17 years. Most software in the US is covered by copyright not patent. There is an aspect of copyright that you have to defend your copyright or you may loose it and the material will move into the public domain. > > -- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: > High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. > Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ~~~ Bonnie Dalzell, MA mail:5100 Hydes Rd PO Box 60, Hydes,MD,USA 21082-0060|EMAIL:bdalz...@qis.net freelance anatomist, vertebrate paleontologist, writer, illustrator, dog breeder, computer nerd & iconoclast... Borzoi info at www.borzois.com. Editor Net.Pet Online Animal Magazine - http://www.netpetmagazine.com HOME http://www.qis.net/~borzoi/ BUSINESS http://www.batw.com -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
[Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
If you own a computer that had MS-DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1 on it at one point, but your install media are fried, try this abandonware site. http://vetusware.com I worry about the legality of downloading from this site, but technically the software they are allowing people to download is unsupported and abandoned. I think the rule is 20 years old, but some of this stuff isn't that old. Use with care. -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
