Re: [Audyssey] port Heli to vb.net if you want: was Re: Heli
Hi, I have one slightly off topic question; I''ve looked at the IDEs for Visual Studio 2008 and I can't figure out how to compile a project. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 12:12 AM To: Ken the Crazy; Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] port Heli to vb.net if you want: was Re: Heli Hi Ken, A few comments about vb.net if you don't mind. I'm not objecting to it so much as pointing out some long term issues you may encounter with going with vb.net you probably don't know about. Although, there is a ffree Visual Basic .net compiler, Visual Basic Express, the latest version isn't very accessible. I tried the demos of Visual Basic 2010, Visual C# 2010, and Visual C++ 2010 and they don't work well at all with Jaws, Window-Eyes, and NVDA. So in order to use Visual Basic .net we would have to use Visual Basic 2005 or Visual Basic 2008 to have reasonable accessibility with the IDE and compiler. Problem is for Windows 7 it is highly recommended to use Visual Basic 2010 since it is optimized for .NET 4.0 which ships with Windows 7. That's trouble enough. Next, is the install size for your game. While the application itself would be quite small the dependencies that might need to be installed could be quite large. Last time I looked I believe .NET 4.0 is something like 350 MB or there about. That's not a problem for Windows 7 users like me since .NET 4.0 is integrated into the OS, but it would be for people still running XP and Vista since they'd have to install .NET 4.0 which is a fairly sizable install. That's not necessarily a good thing since not everyone has a high speed connection, and a lot of people over seas has to pay for how much bandwidth they use. As a game developer forcing them to download a 350 MB Windows upgrade is asking a bit much for a free game. Then, there is third-party dependencies involved. With .net languages like Visual Basic .net you need to use managed wrappers to access various libraries and APIs. So if we want to use DirectX we have to download and install SlimDX which doesn't come with XP, Vista, or Windows 7. This is just one more dependency among others we will end up adding to the list of things to download and install before anyone can use this game. One serious issue I encountered with the express version of Visual Basic .net is selecting a target platform. By default VB.net Express is set to Any CPU. This is a generic target platform that in theory is suppose to compile cross-platform independant executables that will run on x86 and x64 platforms. Problem is when including third-party wrappers you absolutely must specify a target platform like x86 or x64, and the express version of the IDE won't let you do this. You need to buy and own Visual Basic Pro to recompile your game source for x86 or x64 specific Windows platforms.Since this is a free project, free game, and your intention is to keep development free VB.net may not be as inexpensive and free as you think do to technical limitations in the VB Express IDE. Finally, there is he issue of documentation. While there is plenty of VB.net books on basic things like using VB.net to create a front end to an SQL database, writing a simple text editor, calculator, and that kind of thing there is really no documentation at all for games. The majority of .net game developers use C#.net and the XNA Framework. Over the past, oh, five years or so C#.net has largely replaced Visual Basic as the mainstream language of choice for home users and professionals. Visual Basic isn't exactly dead, but you don't see Microsoft marketing VB.net as nearly as much as C#.net to the home user. For example, back in the 1990's Microsoft launched a marketing campaign to introduce Visual Basic as a simple, easy to use language for home users and professionals alike. As part of that marketing campaign Microsoft created DirectX com components like DX8VB.dll for Visual Basic 6, and there were a handful of books written from professionals explaining that anyone could learn Visual Basic 6 and write his/her own games. Around 2003 Microsoft completely switched their marketing campaign to C#.net. Instead of naturally going to VB.net, which would be the logical assumption here, they began advertising C#.net instead. They released Managed DirectX for C#.net which was eventually phased out and replaced by XNA. A long with this switch to C#.net went the authors who write books on the various Microsoft languages. Instead of hearing about how great VB.net was most were saying C#.net was the best language from the home user or pro software developer. As a result if you want to get documentation for SlimDX most of the documentation is written for a C#.net developer. If you want to use SDL most of the documentation is for a C#.net developer. FMOD Ex is VB.net and C#.net compatible, but strangely the code
Re: [Audyssey] port Heli to vb.net if you want: was Re: Heli
Hi Hayden, Press f7. Alternatively you can do alt+b for the build menu, arrow to build, and then press enter. HTH On 1/30/11, Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi, I have one slightly off topic question; I''ve looked at the IDEs for Visual Studio 2008 and I can't figure out how to compile a project. Best Regards, Hayden --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] port Heli to vb.net if you want: was Re: Heli
Hi Ken, First, you are right. C# .net is much much easier than C++ to learn. There are a number of good reasons why it has replaced Visual Basic in academic circles as the new beginners programming language. I'll list some of the main ones below. Garbage Collection --- In C and C++ it was always necessary to do your own memory management and your own garbage collection. If you initialized a pointer you had to properly destroy it or cause memory leaks and errors. With C# .net the .net runtime has built in garbage collection that frequently cleans up unused memory etc allowing you to write more stable and error free code.Of course, it is still a good idea to do your own garbage collection, but the garbage collecter is a nice safety net you don't have with C++. String Handling --- In C++ there are a number of character string types that makes it difficult to cast one type of string to another. Since Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 use unicode you often find yourself in the position of casting strings between ansci and unicode. Since C# .net uses the System.String class the .net framework handles these types of conversions automatically for you. This makes it several times easier when ever you need to pass a string to a function and you have no idea of what string data type the function requires. Rapid Development --- Like Visual Basic C# .net was designed to rapidly create software through a simple point and click interface. You can create forms, buttons, list boxes, and other GUI controls simply by dragging and dropping objects from the C# .net toolbox. Obviously, this is one of the features that made Visual Basic so popular in the late 90's and now is available in all the Visual Studio languages. Software Portability --- As with Java and other runtime languages C# .net software is quite portable. If you use a cross-platform compatible design, such as Mono, you can build and run C# .net applications on Mac OS, Linux, and Windows with very little issues porting between platforms. This makes it easier for a developer like yourself to create software for Mac and Linux without owning and/or using the target platform yourself. Reserved Words --- Unlike a lot of other languages C# .net only has a small handful of reserved words for the language. This makes learning and using the language much easier than other triditional programming languages as Microsoft did a fair job of trying to keep it simple stupid while at the same time offering developers a powerful programming language that meets their needs. C-Style Syntax --- C# .net, as the name implies, is a member of the C family of languages. The advantage here is that many tech schools, colleges, and universities use C# .net as an introductory course in preparation for teaching Java, C++, and other more advanced C based languages. Unlike Visual Basic learning C# .net will help you as a programmer get the fundimentals of C, C++, Java, etc and if you ever choose to learn them C# .net will give you an introductory foundation to work from. Second, I've looked at Sharp Develop. Although, admitedly my experience is pretty limited. Most of the time I either use Visual C# 2008 on Windows, or if I'm on Linux I use Monodevelop. I happen to like Monodevelop myself, and it is pretty accessible with Orca which makes me happy. Cheers! On 1/30/11, Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: Hello Tom and all, If you would port Heli to c.net, I will, grudgingly, learn the language. (Oh I can't believe I'm actually saying this! LOL) I know that c.net isn't nearly as difficult as vanilla C, so maybe it won't be so hard to wrap my peewee brain around lol. Second, have you had any experience with Sharp Develop? The IDE seems totally accessible, and one of their claims is to be able to translate vb.net to c.net and vice versa. Any thoughts? Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] port Heli to vb.net if you want: was Re: Heli
There is a vb.net studio called Sharp Develop. I have no idea how to use vb.net, but if someone would port what I have to vb.net, then I imagine many more people could work on it, and not have to buy anything either. Plus,the latest version of Direct Audio could be used instead of DirectX 8, and who knows how much more powerful the game could be. BGT not having 3d was the first reason I chose not to go with it. The second is that I know vb6 pretty well. I am certainly willing to change to vb.net, but to tell you the truth, I don't learn very well unless I have code right in front of me to play with. Well, I can't say that exactly, as I had to develop the 3d audio engine by myself from descriptions, but we're talking about a whole new language here, a whole new way to do things. In other words, I'd be grateful if someone could port this to vb.net, not offended. I don't know that I won't still use BB6 instead--I'm mainly a hobby programmer, not a pro making a lot of money by selling the cutting-edge games like Tom and others. I think that if you have the patience and dedication to make such games, that's awesome. My enjoyment comes from exploring frontiers, like 3d audio in vb6, and like using the mouse, another area that still could be opened up a bit. My real enjoyment in working with computers though is creating sound effects and music; if I program a game, it's just because I get this idea in my head that won't leave me alone till I've made the game. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Heli Um damien, that won't work at the moment, as bgt doesn't have any 3d sound capabilities. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 9:55 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Heli Hi, I'm thinking we should port Heli over to BGT. What are your thoughts? If there are no objections, is there anyone helping with the VB version who'd like to help me convert it? Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5266 (20100709) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5266 (20100709) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] port Heli to vb.net if you want: was Re: Heli
Hi Ken, I realize that you are not interested in BGT in its current state, but I have some news in case they interest you for the future. I am going to add 3d sound to BGT in a release fairly soon, and I have already added mouse support as well as a bunch of other things like pathfinding for artificial intelligence. On another note, you would not need to buy anything to use BGT for open source software. It's totally free. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 12:41 AM Subject: [Audyssey] port Heli to vb.net if you want: was Re: Heli There is a vb.net studio called Sharp Develop. I have no idea how to use vb.net, but if someone would port what I have to vb.net, then I imagine many more people could work on it, and not have to buy anything either. Plus,the latest version of Direct Audio could be used instead of DirectX 8, and who knows how much more powerful the game could be. BGT not having 3d was the first reason I chose not to go with it. The second is that I know vb6 pretty well. I am certainly willing to change to vb.net, but to tell you the truth, I don't learn very well unless I have code right in front of me to play with. Well, I can't say that exactly, as I had to develop the 3d audio engine by myself from descriptions, but we're talking about a whole new language here, a whole new way to do things. In other words, I'd be grateful if someone could port this to vb.net, not offended. I don't know that I won't still use BB6 instead--I'm mainly a hobby programmer, not a pro making a lot of money by selling the cutting-edge games like Tom and others. I think that if you have the patience and dedication to make such games, that's awesome. My enjoyment comes from exploring frontiers, like 3d audio in vb6, and like using the mouse, another area that still could be opened up a bit. My real enjoyment in working with computers though is creating sound effects and music; if I program a game, it's just because I get this idea in my head that won't leave me alone till I've made the game. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Heli Um damien, that won't work at the moment, as bgt doesn't have any 3d sound capabilities. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 9:55 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Heli Hi, I'm thinking we should port Heli over to BGT. What are your thoughts? If there are no objections, is there anyone helping with the VB version who'd like to help me convert it? Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5266 (20100709) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5266 (20100709) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your
Re: [Audyssey] port Heli to vb.net if you want: was Re: Heli
Hi Ken, VB.Net has its disadvantages over BGT, mainly that the end user has to install the .net framework on their systems. I do not even have VB.Net on my system either. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 11:41 PM Subject: [Audyssey] port Heli to vb.net if you want: was Re: Heli There is a vb.net studio called Sharp Develop. I have no idea how to use vb.net, but if someone would port what I have to vb.net, then I imagine many more people could work on it, and not have to buy anything either. Plus,the latest version of Direct Audio could be used instead of DirectX 8, and who knows how much more powerful the game could be. BGT not having 3d was the first reason I chose not to go with it. The second is that I know vb6 pretty well. I am certainly willing to change to vb.net, but to tell you the truth, I don't learn very well unless I have code right in front of me to play with. Well, I can't say that exactly, as I had to develop the 3d audio engine by myself from descriptions, but we're talking about a whole new language here, a whole new way to do things. In other words, I'd be grateful if someone could port this to vb.net, not offended. I don't know that I won't still use BB6 instead--I'm mainly a hobby programmer, not a pro making a lot of money by selling the cutting-edge games like Tom and others. I think that if you have the patience and dedication to make such games, that's awesome. My enjoyment comes from exploring frontiers, like 3d audio in vb6, and like using the mouse, another area that still could be opened up a bit. My real enjoyment in working with computers though is creating sound effects and music; if I program a game, it's just because I get this idea in my head that won't leave me alone till I've made the game. Ken Downey President DreamTechInteractive! And, Blind Comfort! The pleasant way to experience massage! It's the Caring without the Staring! - Original Message - From: Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Heli Um damien, that won't work at the moment, as bgt doesn't have any 3d sound capabilities. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 9:55 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Heli Hi, I'm thinking we should port Heli over to BGT. What are your thoughts? If there are no objections, is there anyone helping with the VB version who'd like to help me convert it? Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5266 (20100709) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5266 (20100709) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding
Re: [Audyssey] port Heli to vb.net if you want: was Re: Heli
Hi Ken, A few comments about vb.net if you don't mind. I'm not objecting to it so much as pointing out some long term issues you may encounter with going with vb.net you probably don't know about. Although, there is a ffree Visual Basic .net compiler, Visual Basic Express, the latest version isn't very accessible. I tried the demos of Visual Basic 2010, Visual C# 2010, and Visual C++ 2010 and they don't work well at all with Jaws, Window-Eyes, and NVDA. So in order to use Visual Basic .net we would have to use Visual Basic 2005 or Visual Basic 2008 to have reasonable accessibility with the IDE and compiler. Problem is for Windows 7 it is highly recommended to use Visual Basic 2010 since it is optimized for .NET 4.0 which ships with Windows 7. That's trouble enough. Next, is the install size for your game. While the application itself would be quite small the dependencies that might need to be installed could be quite large. Last time I looked I believe .NET 4.0 is something like 350 MB or there about. That's not a problem for Windows 7 users like me since .NET 4.0 is integrated into the OS, but it would be for people still running XP and Vista since they'd have to install .NET 4.0 which is a fairly sizable install. That's not necessarily a good thing since not everyone has a high speed connection, and a lot of people over seas has to pay for how much bandwidth they use. As a game developer forcing them to download a 350 MB Windows upgrade is asking a bit much for a free game. Then, there is third-party dependencies involved. With .net languages like Visual Basic .net you need to use managed wrappers to access various libraries and APIs. So if we want to use DirectX we have to download and install SlimDX which doesn't come with XP, Vista, or Windows 7. This is just one more dependency among others we will end up adding to the list of things to download and install before anyone can use this game. One serious issue I encountered with the express version of Visual Basic .net is selecting a target platform. By default VB.net Express is set to Any CPU. This is a generic target platform that in theory is suppose to compile cross-platform independant executables that will run on x86 and x64 platforms. Problem is when including third-party wrappers you absolutely must specify a target platform like x86 or x64, and the express version of the IDE won't let you do this. You need to buy and own Visual Basic Pro to recompile your game source for x86 or x64 specific Windows platforms.Since this is a free project, free game, and your intention is to keep development free VB.net may not be as inexpensive and free as you think do to technical limitations in the VB Express IDE. Finally, there is he issue of documentation. While there is plenty of VB.net books on basic things like using VB.net to create a front end to an SQL database, writing a simple text editor, calculator, and that kind of thing there is really no documentation at all for games. The majority of .net game developers use C#.net and the XNA Framework. Over the past, oh, five years or so C#.net has largely replaced Visual Basic as the mainstream language of choice for home users and professionals. Visual Basic isn't exactly dead, but you don't see Microsoft marketing VB.net as nearly as much as C#.net to the home user. For example, back in the 1990's Microsoft launched a marketing campaign to introduce Visual Basic as a simple, easy to use language for home users and professionals alike. As part of that marketing campaign Microsoft created DirectX com components like DX8VB.dll for Visual Basic 6, and there were a handful of books written from professionals explaining that anyone could learn Visual Basic 6 and write his/her own games. Around 2003 Microsoft completely switched their marketing campaign to C#.net. Instead of naturally going to VB.net, which would be the logical assumption here, they began advertising C#.net instead. They released Managed DirectX for C#.net which was eventually phased out and replaced by XNA. A long with this switch to C#.net went the authors who write books on the various Microsoft languages. Instead of hearing about how great VB.net was most were saying C#.net was the best language from the home user or pro software developer. As a result if you want to get documentation for SlimDX most of the documentation is written for a C#.net developer. If you want to use SDL most of the documentation is for a C#.net developer. FMOD Ex is VB.net and C#.net compatible, but strangely the code examples are all for C#.net. Bottom line, VB.net isn't a very good choice because the industry as a whole has seamed to abandoned Visual Basic completely and went with C#.net. Finding good game development documentation for VB.net doesn't really exist. So if we decide to go with VB.net we'll be translating the documentation from C#.net to VB.net and then translating the code to VB.net as well. Obviously, I could do it since I know both
