Re: [Audyssey] a question on artificial inteligence
thanks for explaining Thomas! - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 12:52 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a question on artificial inteligence Hi Yohandy, Well, AI really is a specialized field of computer programming, and is rather complex to break down to a newby level. However, I think I can give you the jist of how it works without getting too technical. First off there is what we call boolean logic. Generally, computers operate on the assumption something is either true or false. Usually, this works ok in normal applications, but in games there are so many factors that simple boolean logic can't account for all of the probabilities involved. So in a complex game eventually the boolean logic will break down and not be very effective. Fortunately, there is a methodology for handling some degree of uncertainty by basing an action on probabilities and not solid true/false logic. This method of AI programming is called fuzzy logic because it doesn't act on a strict true/false condition. Instead we use Bayesian updating to calculate a pprobability based on a number of factors and take an action according to the current probability. Let's give an example here. You are playing Mortal Kombat wailing away on some bad guy when he moves a certain way. Now, there is a certain probability your next blow will be a strike from your left hand. That isn't necessarily something that is true/false but can be guessed by your relationship to him, and your left hand is closer etc. So there is a high probability generated that you will strike with that hand so the game will prepare a blocking move antisapating that attack. However, if you throw a punch with that hand you will leave yourself open for a split second and there is a high probability he can get a good blow in as well. So after all this is figured in to a Baysian probability it has an action in mind, you follow through with that attack, and he nails you hard and fast. However, were you to throw a punch with the right hand instead of the left the AI opponent might have been caught off guard and got wailed really good. That's what I meant a couple of days ago about being able to defeat a computer opponent if you can guess its strategy. Unfortunately, human beings are predictable, because we try to do the obvious move/attack. If you do something that is counter intuitive it plays havic with the AI's fuzzy logic and scrambles its probabilities. In other words try and suprise the AI by doing something unexpected. HTH --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a question on artificial inteligence
Hi Yohandy, Oh, yes. As I said earlier it is all based on probabilities. If you are at a certain angle and distance there are only so many moves you might be able to do and it picks the most likely attack from the list of moves. Plus as Dark was saying the really Pro game developers have created memories for the AI bots so that the same move doesn't work twice in a row. If you try the same move twice and a row it would remember that attack and counter it. On 4/6/10, Yohandy wrote: > wow definitely educational! AI holding your moves in memory to predict you? > wow dude, totally evil! that could explain why sometimes the same move > didn't work twice on AI opponents. I actually never considered the bit about > AI determining specific distances for certain moves. that would definitely > explain why I kept getting away with abusing certain moves to my advantage > while standing a bit back, and cpu kept focus attacking like an idiot haha. > I always found that in high difficulty levels computers are extremely > aggressive and the only way to beat them is by outsmarting them which isn't > easy, or an easier method, spamming moves that prove weak against it. It's > kinda funny that if you block on SFIV, sometimes the CPU gets all confused > and just walks around trying to figure you out lol. seth from SFIV is > definitely a character people love complaining about, but even on hardest, > he's weak against sweeps and various moves. I read somewhere that for super > street fighter IV they were gonna make him even harder, so I'm definitely > not gonna have fun with that lol. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a question on artificial inteligence
Hi Yohandy, Well, AI really is a specialized field of computer programming, and is rather complex to break down to a newby level. However, I think I can give you the jist of how it works without getting too technical. First off there is what we call boolean logic. Generally, computers operate on the assumption something is either true or false. Usually, this works ok in normal applications, but in games there are so many factors that simple boolean logic can't account for all of the probabilities involved. So in a complex game eventually the boolean logic will break down and not be very effective. Fortunately, there is a methodology for handling some degree of uncertainty by basing an action on probabilities and not solid true/false logic. This method of AI programming is called fuzzy logic because it doesn't act on a strict true/false condition. Instead we use Bayesian updating to calculate a pprobability based on a number of factors and take an action according to the current probability. Let's give an example here. You are playing Mortal Kombat wailing away on some bad guy when he moves a certain way. Now, there is a certain probability your next blow will be a strike from your left hand. That isn't necessarily something that is true/false but can be guessed by your relationship to him, and your left hand is closer etc. So there is a high probability generated that you will strike with that hand so the game will prepare a blocking move antisapating that attack. However, if you throw a punch with that hand you will leave yourself open for a split second and there is a high probability he can get a good blow in as well. So after all this is figured in to a Baysian probability it has an action in mind, you follow through with that attack, and he nails you hard and fast. However, were you to throw a punch with the right hand instead of the left the AI opponent might have been caught off guard and got wailed really good. That's what I meant a couple of days ago about being able to defeat a computer opponent if you can guess its strategy. Unfortunately, human beings are predictable, because we try to do the obvious move/attack. If you do something that is counter intuitive it plays havic with the AI's fuzzy logic and scrambles its probabilities. In other words try and suprise the AI by doing something unexpected. HTH --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a question on artificial inteligence
wow definitely educational! AI holding your moves in memory to predict you? wow dude, totally evil! that could explain why sometimes the same move didn't work twice on AI opponents. I actually never considered the bit about AI determining specific distances for certain moves. that would definitely explain why I kept getting away with abusing certain moves to my advantage while standing a bit back, and cpu kept focus attacking like an idiot haha. I always found that in high difficulty levels computers are extremely aggressive and the only way to beat them is by outsmarting them which isn't easy, or an easier method, spamming moves that prove weak against it. It's kinda funny that if you block on SFIV, sometimes the CPU gets all confused and just walks around trying to figure you out lol. seth from SFIV is definitely a character people love complaining about, but even on hardest, he's weak against sweeps and various moves. I read somewhere that for super street fighter IV they were gonna make him even harder, so I'm definitely not gonna have fun with that lol. - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 10:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a question on artificial inteligence A lot of the Ai in beat em ups works in much the same way as a chess game, ie, a set of objectives and expected reactions to certain situations. So, you if you throw a punch, the computer has a set of routines which predict the most likely courses of action to follow, eg, whether you'll continue into a combo, go for a low attack etc. then of course, there's the chess business, the computer can for instance know how far away you'll be after a given set of moves, and thus see ahead to what set of moves would be better for a given situation, --- perhaps several moves ahead of you, Eg, forcing you to block then hitting with an unblockable. Finally, there's the basic question of calculation. The Ai can caluclate all move distances and ranges precisely. It wouldn't for instance use a special move when the opponent is out of range, though possibly on easier difficulty levels, it may be set to react in a less appropriate way, --- eg, not blocking to give a human a chance. These days as well, with advances is Ai, even nastier stuff can be done, such as the Ai literally holding in memory your most frequent actions in given situations and using them to predict you, this wans't possible earlier, but with the resources, computing power and amount of cash which companies spend on games these days, it's entirely possible, indeed some games such as streetfighter 4 give it as a feature. Hope this explainsthings. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Yohandy" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 3:34 AM Subject: [Audyssey] a question on artificial inteligence Hey all, For some odd reason, I'm fascinated with AI even though I'm not a programmer. my question is basically, how on earth could artificial intelligence outsmart so many people? I think I have an idea of how it might work for things like adventure game and driving games for instance, but how does it work for fighting games where so many different options are involved? I just find it fascinating that computer programs are getting smarter than human beings in many ways. let's say I'm playing a game like mortal kombat and I throw a punch. if I have the game on the hardest difficulty, it's as if the CPU had some mind reading power. it'll immediately block, or jump over or dodge what I'm trying to do in a split second. not only that, but it can take advantage of mistakes I make for example if I do a special move at the wrong time, it'll take advantage of the opening and I'll immediately be severely punished lol. now I've played against many players online including friends, and total strangers, and even so, I sometimes find a computer opponent way tougher than an actual human being. I just find that incredible. does the CPU load every single move for a particular character and its opponents weakness into memory before the fight starts and somehow analyzes everything instantly? It's the only way I can come up with to explain how it can react so quickly and with such accuracy. I just find it so hilarious how people on message boards seem to complain more about AI difficulty than anything else about a game. they can beat online players just fine, but when it comes to AI they start complaining oh man how could this computer be so tough etc. anyone wish to educate me a bit on how AI works? thanks --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or u
Re: [Audyssey] a question on artificial inteligence
A lot of the Ai in beat em ups works in much the same way as a chess game, ie, a set of objectives and expected reactions to certain situations. So, you if you throw a punch, the computer has a set of routines which predict the most likely courses of action to follow, eg, whether you'll continue into a combo, go for a low attack etc. then of course, there's the chess business, the computer can for instance know how far away you'll be after a given set of moves, and thus see ahead to what set of moves would be better for a given situation, --- perhaps several moves ahead of you, Eg, forcing you to block then hitting with an unblockable. Finally, there's the basic question of calculation. The Ai can caluclate all move distances and ranges precisely. It wouldn't for instance use a special move when the opponent is out of range, though possibly on easier difficulty levels, it may be set to react in a less appropriate way, --- eg, not blocking to give a human a chance. These days as well, with advances is Ai, even nastier stuff can be done, such as the Ai literally holding in memory your most frequent actions in given situations and using them to predict you, this wans't possible earlier, but with the resources, computing power and amount of cash which companies spend on games these days, it's entirely possible, indeed some games such as streetfighter 4 give it as a feature. Hope this explainsthings. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Yohandy" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 3:34 AM Subject: [Audyssey] a question on artificial inteligence Hey all, For some odd reason, I'm fascinated with AI even though I'm not a programmer. my question is basically, how on earth could artificial intelligence outsmart so many people? I think I have an idea of how it might work for things like adventure game and driving games for instance, but how does it work for fighting games where so many different options are involved? I just find it fascinating that computer programs are getting smarter than human beings in many ways. let's say I'm playing a game like mortal kombat and I throw a punch. if I have the game on the hardest difficulty, it's as if the CPU had some mind reading power. it'll immediately block, or jump over or dodge what I'm trying to do in a split second. not only that, but it can take advantage of mistakes I make for example if I do a special move at the wrong time, it'll take advantage of the opening and I'll immediately be severely punished lol. now I've played against many players online including friends, and total strangers, and even so, I sometimes find a computer opponent way tougher than an actual human being. I just find that incredible. does the CPU load every single move for a particular character and its opponents weakness into memory before the fight starts and somehow analyzes everything instantly? It's the only way I can come up with to explain how it can react so quickly and with such accuracy. I just find it so hilarious how people on message boards seem to complain more about AI difficulty than anything else about a game. they can beat online players just fine, but when it comes to AI they start complaining oh man how could this computer be so tough etc. anyone wish to educate me a bit on how AI works? thanks --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] a question on artificial inteligence
Hey all, For some odd reason, I'm fascinated with AI even though I'm not a programmer. my question is basically, how on earth could artificial intelligence outsmart so many people? I think I have an idea of how it might work for things like adventure game and driving games for instance, but how does it work for fighting games where so many different options are involved? I just find it fascinating that computer programs are getting smarter than human beings in many ways. let's say I'm playing a game like mortal kombat and I throw a punch. if I have the game on the hardest difficulty, it's as if the CPU had some mind reading power. it'll immediately block, or jump over or dodge what I'm trying to do in a split second. not only that, but it can take advantage of mistakes I make for example if I do a special move at the wrong time, it'll take advantage of the opening and I'll immediately be severely punished lol. now I've played against many players online including friends, and total strangers, and even so, I sometimes find a computer opponent way tougher than an actual human being. I just find that incredible. does the CPU load every single move for a particular character and its opponents weakness into memory before the fight starts and somehow analyzes everything instantly? It's the only way I can come up with to explain how it can react so quickly and with such accuracy. I just find it so hilarious how people on message boards seem to complain more about AI difficulty than anything else about a game. they can beat online players just fine, but when it comes to AI they start complaining oh man how could this computer be so tough etc. anyone wish to educate me a bit on how AI works? thanks --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
