On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Eric Johnson e...@tibco.com wrote:
If this was a software project, and the appropriate answer was unknown, they
you might apply a lean startup approach, and figure out how to run tests
to see which way works best.
Given the number of incubating projects,
I'm not going to ask the May board meeting anything. There's no
consensus of this community on 'probationary projects', and, more to
the point, there are a host of details required to make that a viable
proposal and no one has filled them in. As I wrote in the report, I
plan to have a discussion
Actually I wasn't thinking it would be you Benson who talked to the
board. There are several directors here including a couple on this
thread who've said they support trying this so i thought they could
bring it up informally at the upcoming meeting just to get us an idea
if this is something the
Frankly I find the notion that the board will do a better job of MENTORING
these projects than the IPMC to be batshit insane, but that's just me.
We need manpower, and there is plenty of that available amongst the competent
volunteers who actively participate in these projects. Let's just do
It's not just you Joe.
From: Joseph Schaefer
Sent: 11/05/2013 15:34
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [META DISCUSS] talking about the overall state of this PMC
Frankly I find the notion that the board will do a better job of MENTORING
these projects than the IPMC to be batshit insane
It's not just you Joe.
Sent from my Windows Phone From: Joseph Schaefer
Sent: 11/05/2013 15:34
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [META DISCUSS] talking about the overall state of this PMC
Frankly I find the notion that the board will do a better job of MENTORING
these projects than
On May 11, 2013, at 7:26 AM, ant elder ant.el...@gmail.com wrote:
I also agree that there isn't consensus in the Incubator PMC to do
this, but I'm not sure we need it.
Lovely.
Regards,
Alan
Violating my 24 hour rule just this one, and worse yet to repeat myself:
+1 Joe, Ross, etc.
I rather regret mentioning the direct launch alternative in my most
recent email. We have some weakness in _mentoring_, and more weakness
in _supervising_ (or at least in documenting supervision). We have
On May 11, 2013, at 5:40 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote:
A real experiment with 'probationary projects' would have to model the
entire process of a new project launching with _no IPMC_ to
participate in any way.
Can you explain what problem launching new projects with _no
On May 11, 2013, at 9:44 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote:
Violating my 24 hour rule just this one, and worse yet to repeat myself:
IMO, I think this is fine so long as it occurs on the weekend. :)
+1 Joe, Ross, etc.
I rather regret mentioning the direct launch
On May 11, 2013, at 7:33 AM, Joseph Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com wrote:
Frankly I find the notion that the board will do a better job of MENTORING
these projects than the IPMC to be batshit insane, but that's just me.
We need manpower, and there is plenty of that available amongst the
switch [;).
- Dennis
-Original Message-
From: Alan Cabrera [mailto:l...@toolazydogs.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 10:10
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [META DISCUSS] talking about the overall state of this PMC
On May 11, 2013, at 7:33 AM, Joseph Schaefer joe_schae
On May 11, 2013, at 11:03 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org
wrote:
It's often called a dead-man's switch. I think the term applied originally
to locomotive engineers and also metro car drivers. (I'm not sure what a
dead pilot switch could accomplish in an aircraft.)
I
I firmly believe our priority in mentoring podlings is to instill
self-governance as early as is feasible, and the proven way to accomplish that
task is to identify suitable members of the podling and elect them to the IPMC
so they are fully empowered to do it. Every other approach is
Benson,
-Original Message-
From: Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com
Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org
Date: Saturday, May 11, 2013 6:44 AM
To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [META DISCUSS] talking about
If you think it's clear in either direction, call a VOTE. I think that's
the only demonstrable way to suggest what's clear and what's not.
Please see several emails from Greg and others on the board@ list
recently pointing out the inappropriateness of overuse of votes.
If even *one* person
Hi Alan,
-Original Message-
From: Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com
Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org
Date: Saturday, May 11, 2013 7:01 AM
To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [META DISCUSS] talking about the overall
-Original Message-
From: Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com
Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org
Date: Saturday, May 11, 2013 8:56 AM
To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [META DISCUSS] talking about the overall
Phone From: Alan Cabrera
Sent: 11/05/2013 17:46
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [META DISCUSS] talking about the overall state of this PMC
On May 11, 2013, at 5:40 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote:
A real experiment with 'probationary projects' would have to model
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:56 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote:
If you think it's clear in either direction, call a VOTE. I think that's
the only demonstrable way to suggest what's clear and what's not.
Please see several emails from Greg and others on the board@ list
recently
Chris,
As I feel like I've explained 100 times, all of the following are true:
1) I disagree with your proposal
2) I agree with much of your analyses of problems with the IPMC
3) I I trying to do a job of consensus moderation as best I understand
how, being fair to you and to all the involuntary
So, here we have:
Alan's idea of removing champions and shepherds and demanding mentor
recommitment, with the 'teeth' of putting podlings on ice if they
can't muster an adequate mentor squad.
My idea of asking champions to step up to some specific supervision
responsibility, thus allowing some
If this was a software project, and the appropriate answer was unknown,
they you might apply a lean startup approach, and figure out how to
run tests to see which way works best.
Given the number of incubating projects, should be easy to run some
experiments. Then you just need to build up
On May 10, 2013, at 9:25 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote:
So, here we have:
Alan's idea of removing champions and shepherds and demanding mentor
recommitment, with the 'teeth' of putting podlings on ice if they
can't muster an adequate mentor squad.
My idea of asking
Lean startup approaches make sense when you do not know the problem that you're
solving. You perform experiments and pivot as you blindly search for a domain
whose problems you can solve and make money doing it.
Here, we know what our problems are.
This is not to say that we should not
Sent from a mobile device, please excuse mistakes and brevity
On 8 May 2013 02:20, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote:
On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Ross Gardler
rgard...@opendirective.com wrote:
...I've made a proposal for giving the IPMC teeth but it hasn't gained
On May 7, 2013, at 10:27 PM, Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 12:58 AM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote:
On May 7, 2013, at 9:15 PM, Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com wrote:
On a whole different direction, one way to scale is to shift from
Incubator-managed
On 7 May 2013 21:15, Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com wrote:
On a whole different direction, one way to scale is to shift from
Incubator-managed podlings to Board-managed. The podling would
effectively be a TLP on probation. The Champion, Mentors, and Board
would be providing oversight.
I would
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 10:51 AM, ant elder ant.el...@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 2:56 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com
wrote:
Discussions on Ross' and Chris' proposals ground to a halt.
In my view, there are real issues that drove those discussions, even if
those
On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Ross Gardler
rgard...@opendirective.com wrote:
...I've made a proposal for giving the IPMC teeth but it hasn't gained
support..
URL?
...In the absence of something else with teeth then I'm +1 for
probationary TLPs as proposed by Chris as long as we stop
I perceive here that we have reached a favorite knot: the tension
between 'mentor as coach' and 'mentor as supervisor'.
This PMC's job, as delegated by the board, is supervision. If the
mentors don't supervise, who will?
On the other hand, the very term, 'mentor', is much more suggestive of
On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote:
...I continue to hope for consensus on the thing I wrote...
I had another look at
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/BensonApril2013ProcessProposals and I
like it.
While asking all podlings to confirm their current
On May 8, 2013, at 5:16 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote:
On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com
wrote:
...I continue to hope for consensus on the thing I wrote...
I had another look at
On May 8, 2013, at 1:47 AM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote:
The probationary PMC proposal of Chris' which Greg is championing
gives teeth to the whole process. That's what the IPMC needs - teeth.
Shuttling the kids off to the grandparents, even if they have all their teeth,
is
On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 2:56 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote:
Discussions on Ross' and Chris' proposals ground to a halt.
In my view, there are real issues that drove those discussions, even if
those discussions drove some of us to distraction.
A bit before the wiki crashed,
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:45 AM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote:
...Let's get rid of champions and shepherds and hold the mentors to their
responsibilities
The problem with mentors is when you have 5 of them it's unclear who's
in charge exactly.
The goal of the champion's role
There was a consensus to add the Champion role, and we haven't even
tried it seriously, and now you propose to eliminate it. That doesn't
seem reasonable to me. I'd rather try to make it useful and then
evaluate it. In other words, +1 to Bertrand.
'Holding mentors to their responsibility' as a
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 11:20 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote:
There was a consensus to add the Champion role, and we haven't even
tried it seriously, and now you propose to eliminate it. That doesn't
seem reasonable to me. I'd rather try to make it useful and then
evaluate
The problem that most podlings I've been involved with, whilst having
six mentors, have ended up with just me playing any part. On paper, it
looks like these podlings are in a great place, in fact, they only have
a single active mentor.
What is wanted is to know who is, and who isn't active. To
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:37 PM, Tim Williams william...@gmail.com wrote:
...I signed up to *mentor* not send silly heartbeat
checks that exist because other podling's mentors failed to live up to
their responsibility...
0 0 1 * * echo Hi, the FOO podling is alive. | mail -s Hi folks
On 7 May 2013 16:55, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote:
I guess that could be automated (grep through mail
archives for mentor email addresses each month), but until that
happens[...]
This could be done in a one-off fashion with a simple sh pipe. I'm not fond
of to addressing social problems
On 7 May 2013 08:56, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote:
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:37 PM, Tim Williams william...@gmail.com wrote:
...I signed up to *mentor* not send silly heartbeat
checks that exist because other podling's mentors failed to live up to
their responsibility...
Not really. It's a heartbeat/health-check like any other distributed,
unreliable system. I was tempted to say it's a social implementation of
STONITH, but that might send the wrong message. ;)
On 8 May 2013 00:53, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote:
On 7 May 2013 08:56, Bertrand
On a whole different direction, one way to scale is to shift from
Incubator-managed podlings to Board-managed. The podling would
effectively be a TLP on probation. The Champion, Mentors, and Board
would be providing oversight.
I would posit that the Board is more capable of oversight than the
] talking about the overall state of this PMC
On a whole different direction, one way to scale is to shift from
Incubator-managed podlings to Board-managed. The podling would
effectively be a TLP on probation. The Champion, Mentors, and Board
would be providing oversight.
I would posit that the Board
On May 7, 2013, at 4:03 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote:
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:45 AM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote:
...Let's get rid of champions and shepherds and hold the mentors to their
responsibilities
The problem with mentors is when you have 5
On May 7, 2013, at 9:15 PM, Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com wrote:
On a whole different direction, one way to scale is to shift from
Incubator-managed podlings to Board-managed. The podling would
effectively be a TLP on probation. The Champion, Mentors, and Board
would be providing oversight.
You go girl! Spot on.
Sent from my iPhone
On May 8, 2013, at 12:54 AM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote:
On May 7, 2013, at 4:03 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org
wrote:
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:45 AM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote:
...Let's get rid of
On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 12:58 AM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote:
On May 7, 2013, at 9:15 PM, Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com wrote:
On a whole different direction, one way to scale is to shift from
Incubator-managed podlings to Board-managed. The podling would
effectively be a TLP on
@incubator.apache.org
Date: Sunday, May 5, 2013 10:43 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [META DISCUSS] talking about the overall state of this PMC
Having read your wiki post, I find it a simple, considered upping of the
game, which I think would be worth
On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 9:56 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote:
Discussions on Ross' and Chris' proposals ground to a halt.
In my view, there are real issues that drove those discussions, even if
those discussions drove some of us to distraction.
A bit before the wiki crashed,
Hi,
On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote:
...I consider that proposal adopted, and I'm looking to build on it, by
adding a few specifics...
Sounds good to me - we haven't really acted on the clarifications to
the champion role that we added a while ago
] talking about the overall state of this PMC
On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 9:56 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com
wrote:
Discussions on Ross' and Chris' proposals ground to a halt.
In my view, there are real issues that drove those discussions, even
if those discussions drove some of us
On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Chen, Pei
pei.c...@childrens.harvard.edu wrote:
I have to agree with Tim here if a champion has to manually generate this
report: a monthly report that says simple heartbeat that says podling is
alive and the mentors are on board?
However, I think something
On May 5, 2013, at 6:56 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote:
Discussions on Ross' and Chris' proposals ground to a halt.
In my view, there are real issues that drove those discussions, even if
those discussions drove some of us to distraction.
A bit before the wiki crashed, I
Discussions on Ross' and Chris' proposals ground to a halt.
In my view, there are real issues that drove those discussions, even if
those discussions drove some of us to distraction.
A bit before the wiki crashed, I wrote:
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/BensonApril2013ProcessProposals
The
Having read your wiki post, I find it a simple, considered upping of the
game, which I think would be worth the effort of trying, especially as
the mini-reports don't get to the board unless there are issues. There
really could do with being a little more 'cost' to being a podling, or a
mentor for
Date: Sunday, May 5, 2013 10:43 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [META DISCUSS] talking about the overall state of this PMC
Having read your wiki post, I find it a simple, considered upping of the
game, which I think would be worth the effort of trying
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